The Times of the Nations
Ministry by G. R. Cowell
– Memorials: Volume 15

It is important, therefore, that we should be intelligent as to what God has set up in the way of Gentile rule and the character of it, and be kept in remembrance of the fact that

• it is His will that His saints should bear testimony before rulers.

• That has been a feature from the beginning of the times of the Gentiles right on. Paul was to bear Christ’s name before nations and kings and the sons of Israel.

• These are the things generally in mind in our enquiry.

In the scriptures read, certain persons are brought before us, and especially Daniel, who provide examples of

• the character required in those who are to carry through the testimony God has in mind;

• and there is a peculiar link between these persons and those who seek to be faithful in our day.

• It says in verse 2 that part of the vessels of the house of God had been carried into the land of Shinar to the house of Nebuchadnezzar’s god.
  • In our day the vessels are persons.

• Captivity came in early in church history, so that the injunction in 2 Timothy 2 was necessary before Paul left the scene and he speaks of vessels.

• The god of this world has acquired part of the vessels of the house of God. He uses them in his system,
  • but 2 Timothy 2 refers to vessels which are sanctified and serviceable to the Master and profitable for every good work. The whole truth as to the house of God is cherished by such.

• In 2 Timothy days the house of God testimonially is submerged, but we rejoice in the fact that, vitally, it remains; the habitation of God in the Spirit subsists on the earth at the present moment.

• It cannot be otherwise, because the Spirit of God is here.

• It is submerged from a testimonial standpoint but it subsists in all its living reality,
  • and those who would be faithful today hold to the truth of it and are concerned to function relative to it – to take up every kind of service connected with it.

• Now that would be in mind, in the principle of it, in the stand taken by Daniel and his friends.

• They would not render themselves unclean, because no unclean person could function relative to the house of God; they were concerned, therefore, to maintain
  • “the law of the house”.

• This is given in some detail in Leviticus – see 7: 37-38; 11: 46-47; 12: 7; 13: 59; 14: 32, 54-57; 15: 32-33.

• Much of it relates to what is unclean and clean; and chapter 11 treats of food in this connection. If they had not made a stand as to this they would have been disqualified.

• So it is of the utmost importance that we should make a stand, and in doing so we may have to approach those in authority and make our requests known, because we cannot compromise.

• The fact that Daniel purposed in his heart shows that he was determined not to compromise whatever happened. But he made his request known.

• So the idea of an approach to an authority immediately comes in in the book.

A.J.G. Have you in mind that the maintenance of the service of God is the great objective to be before ns, but in the course of maintaining that it may work out that approach has to be made to authorities, and God uses that for testimony

G.R.C. That is what I had in mind. Exodus, Chronicles, and all that is connected with the house of God, precede this;

• and though in Daniel’s day the house of God was physically destroyed, in our day the habitation of God in the Spirit subsists,

• and we are to hold the abstract view of it and then work out in practice the service connected with it in integrity and completeness with those available.

• But then, in order to do so, we must observe the law of the house and a fundamental law relates to making
  • “a difference between the unclean and the clean”, Leviticus 11: 46-47.

A.J.G. It is interesting, is it not, that we get the law of the house brought in again in Ezekiel 43, who was contemporary with Daniel, stressing that it is “Most holy”.

G.R.C. “Upon the top of the mountain all its border round about is most holy”, Ezekiel 43: 12.

• Do you not think that the allusion to the evening oblation in chapter 9, and also the implied allusion to the sabbath, show that in the heart of a man like Daniel the whole truth was being held.

• That would be why this course of conduct because the only one he could pursue.

H.F.R. I was thinking of the responsibility which lies upon the saints as vessels in this day of captivity.

• If the assembly is the fulness of the nations in its highest sense, it is to afford vessels which are able to maintain what is pleasing to God in every circumstance.

G.R.C. That is just what I had in mind. So that while, physically, Daniel and his friends were in captivity,

• they were acting in such a manner as to be morally free from it,

• in order that they might be, in New Testament language, vessels
  • “to honour, sanctified, serviceable to the Master, prepared for every good work”.

• “Every good work” would include the most important, that is, the service Godward in His house, and it also includes testimony to men and testimony before kings.

W.H. Had you any thought as to why the food supply should be the specific test?

G.R.C. I think it is a fundamental matter. According to Leviticus 11 it would affect every moment of our lives.

A.E.M. Is it not interesting that the course of Babylonish wisdom was three years, but the course of proving the work of God was ten days?

G.R.C. Very good. What is your thought as to the ten days?

A.E.M. It is the time of responsibility, and God acts quickly in regard to His work.

G.R.C. That is very good. Does it not indicate that if we have purposed not to pollute ourselves and yet behave in a comely way towards those above us, we become the depositories of divine wisdom?

• Daniel says, “he giveth wisdom to the wise”, chapter 2: 21,

• that is, if any man is wise, he has received it as a gift,
  • “and knowledge to them that know understanding”.

• Is it not true that, if we are morally right, God can very rapidly supply divine wisdom?

A.E.M. I think so.

Ques. Do we get divine instruction in Mark 13: 9-12, as to how we are to proceed if we are called before authorities?

G.R.C. Verse 11 would specially bear on it,

• “be not careful beforehand as to what ye shall say, [nor prepare your discourse]: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak; for ye are not the speakers, but the Holy Spirit”.

• There it refers to what is given to us,
  • “given you in that hour”.

A.G. Would the kind of food and drink which Daniel asks for be calculated to make full way for Christ and the Spirit in our souls?

G.R.C. The pulse and water was simple clean food for the daily needs of this life. Such food would preserve us in qualification to feed on holy and most holy food.

• No unclean person, for instance, was allowed to eat the peace offering.

• There were other foods which only a priest could eat, but every clean person could eat the peace offering;
  • and without eating the peace offering we are not practically in fellowship at all.

• It shows the importance of keeping ourselves on simple, clean diet in matters of everyday life.

W.J. The next reference to the gold and silver vessels in Daniel is in chapter 5: 2. Does it indicate what he thought of the saints, the standard of the house?

G.R.C. Quite so. How precious the vessels were! But Belshazzar was using them for impious, unholy purposes.

A.B. Would Daniel purposing in his heart not to pollute himself with the king’s meat, be somewhat in the nature of a vow? Does it involve an understanding with God first, before any move is made?

G.R.C. I would think the purposing in heart is the fundamental matter. We cannot compromise anything in relation to the law of our God.

• But then, with that matter settled he behaves himself commendably; he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not have to pollute himself.
  • “And God granted Daniel favour and mercy before the prince of the eunuchs”.

W.C. Is this God’s answer to Hezekiah’s unfaithfulness when he showed his treasures to the messengers of the king of Babylon and Isaiah pronounced the governmental results upon him and said that his sons should be chamberlains with the king of Babylon?

• I was thinking of the faithful way in which they refused what was unclean as over against the way their ancestor had dropped down to the level of the messengers in entertaining them.

G.R.C. Quite so. These young men accepted the position governmentally.

• It had been prophesied to Hezekiah that the royal seed should be eunuchs in the house of the king of Babylon; and here they were.

• So we have to accept the great restrictions of our day, and yet how precious to God that there should be those who will not compromise anything in regard to the law of their God!

• It is said of Daniel later that his enemies knew that the only way that they could find fault with him was in matters concerning the law of his God.

• They knew that he would not compromise.

R.H.S. Have we something to learn from what God granted to Daniel and then what God gave? He granted favour and mercy before the prince of the eunuchs, but in verse 17,

• “God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom”.

G.R.C. I think the two things go together. That is, if we are prepared uncompromisingly to keep the law of our God and make our requests known, whatever the cost may be, then we are in a state to receive from God.

• Do we not have to bear in mind in that connection Daniel’s worship in chapter 2? He says,
  • “Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever; For wisdom and might are his”, verse 20.

• Is that not a great thing fundamentally for us to accept that wisdom and might belong to God alone?

• There is the wisdom from beneath, but that is not wisdom in the mind of God. The wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.

• All true wisdom and all might are God’s. They are only in God Himself and with those to whom He is pleased to give them; and so Daniel says,
  • “Wisdom and might are his”, and then in verse 21, “He giveth wisdom to the wise”.

• So that if there are any on earth at any time who are wise according to God, it is because the only wise God has given them wisdom.

• Therefore everything depends on our state, whether we are in a condition to receive, to be the depositories of the wisdom of God.

J.McK. Were you thinking that the condition amongst Daniel and his friends paves the way for God’s movement in chapter 2 in giving this dream to Nebuchadnezzar, which in turn throws into relief the great flow of praise from Daniel to God?

G.R.C. Very good. What purpose would there have been in God giving the dream to Nebuchadnezzar if there had been no person suited to be the depository of divine wisdom and to interpret the dream?

J.McK. Would that have a parallel in the way the saints should be able to understand the times in our day?

G.R.C. I think so. It is a remarkable thing that the dream should have been given to Nebuchadnezzar and not to Daniel.

• The fact that it was given to Nebuchadnezzar means that those who exercise authority throughout the times of the nations are in a place of peculiar responsibility before God,
  • not only because He has entrusted them with the authority,

• but also because at the outset He gave the first ruler this vision and its interpretation.

• So that, when those who have wielded authority have to answer to God in the day of judgment, they will have no excuse. Why did they not take account of Nebuchadnezzar’s vision and its interpretation?

• Gentile rule has been placed under the responsibility of having received this vision, and it is recorded in Scripture with its interpretation.

• But, then, God needed a vessel, and He had serviceable vessels in these four young men;
  • those who not only, in their spirits, served Him in praise and worship in relation to His house

• but who were also available to Him in testimony before the king.

J.McK. It seems very blessed that the praise of God from this remnant has a kind of testimonial basis. Do we not need helping in that?

• I was thinking how the kingdom of Babylon had been thrown into confusion, and it is the solution which Daniel brings in that becomes the salvation of the situation.

Rem. In regard to the question of testimony, before any oral testimony is rendered the countenances of the young men are strikingly referred to relative to the period of the ten days.

Ques. Is not our appearance important? God takes account of it early in the history of the race, saying to Cain,

• “will not thy countenance look up with confidence?”

G.R.C. That is most important. The whole appearance and deportment of these youths was a testimony to God and His greatness.

–.D. In Timothy piety is stressed. Paul says,

• “But thou, O man of God, flee these things, and pursue righteousness, piety, faith, love”, etc.,

• and then he refers to the good confession that Timothy confessed, and also to Christ Jesus who witnessed before Pontius Pilate the good confession; 1 Timothy 6: 11-13.

• Would piety be essential if we are to enter into the conflict? I was thinking of the food upon which these young men fed.

G.R.C. We have referred to 2 Timothy; but 1 Timothy also bears very much on our subject.

• In chapter 2 we are exhorted to make supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings, not only for all men, but for kings and all in dignity.

• Without an understanding of the times of the nations I am certain we shall never know how to supplicate nor to intercede nor even to give thanks intelligently. Our prayers will be just a formality.

• Then, later, the matter of confession is introduced, and the remarkable thing is that, when Paul refers to the good confession, it is that which Christ Jesus made before Pontius Pilate

• Christ Jesus had also made confession before the chief priests and the Sanhedrim, and, of course, that was perfect also;
  • but the apostle draws attention to the fact that before Pontius Pilate, that is, before the Gentile ruler, He witnessed the good confession;

• and that is what is in mind throughout the times of the nations. It is God’s mind that testimony should be rendered to Gentile rulers.

• They receive authority from God and they are responsible to God, and God would bring His representatives before them
  • to affect their consciences in relation to the One who has given them authority

• and who is going to judge them for the way they have used it.

W.H. Was not the confession before Pontius Pilate in relation to the rights of God and the rights of Christ?

• He said “I have been born for this”, John 18: 37.

A.J.G. The confession of the Lord before Pontius Pilate was to the truth,

• “that I might bear witness to the truth”.

• Is that not really the subject of testimony to the world – the truth?

G.R.C. Could you say what you understand by the truth?

A.J.G. The truth as to God and the truth as to man in relation to God.

S.H. Does chapter 2, verse 11, bear on what you are saying – the house of God?

• The Chaldeans remark that the gods do not dwell with flesh, but then, you have Daniel and his three companions praying – the house of prayer.

• Then there is the revelation and, in result, God is praised in the sanctuary.

• Finally, there is testimony to the king that God is there dwelling with men. God in His supremacy is God of the heavens, yet God is with men.

G.R.C. That is very instructive. The Lord says,

• “My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations”, Mark 11: 17.

• These men are found together in prayer concerning this secret. They would be concerned not only about their own safety – it mentions that – but they would be feeling also for men and for the king;
  • the wise men of Babylon were all going to perish, and the king was in anxiety as to the meaning of his dream.

• What a prayer meeting it must have been!

• Then in answer to the prayer the secret was revealed unto Daniel in a night vision; and, as you say, there was praise:
  • “Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever”

• – a phrase similar to that used in 1 Chronicles 16: 36, at the height of David’s power – and then follows this remarkable ascription,
  • “wisdom and might are his”.

C.N. What lies behind the effective service in chapter 2 is personal purity in chapter 1. Is not personal purity stressed much in Timothy 1?

G.R.C. It is; and it bears on our associations. Partaking of the king’s delicate food is a moral idea; it would involve, in their case, the actual physical eating of food,

• but even so it would involve associations also.

• Undoubtedly, in eating the king’s delicate food, they would be mixing with persons who were unsuitable; whereas no one would seek their company when they were eating pulse and water.

• They would thus be free from unclean associations. According to Leviticus 11, eating implies associations.

• There were unclean beasts, birds, fishes and crawling things; they all represent persons, and if we associate with persons who are unclean we appropriate them, and thus we feed on what is unclean.

• So that the matter of clean food really involves separation according to 2 Timothy 2: 21:
  • “If therefore one shall have purified himself from these, in separating himself from them”.

R.G.B. These four persons are seen constantly together in the first section and are called

• “Daniel and his companions”.

• Does that bear upon the fellowship and the maintenance of it, the importance of right companionships and links?

G.R.C. It agrees with the word in 2 Timothy 2: 22,

• “pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart”.

J.W. Does the king’s delicate food refer to the more refined features of the world, the educated system and so on, to which we are so prone to fall?

G.R.C. Undoubtedly. Believers may separate from what men regard as socially unclean and yet go on with what is even more unclean in God’s sight, although refined in men’s estimation.

A.P.B. Why is the king’s matter spoken of as “the secret”? Is there anything to learn from that today?

G.R.C. There is much to learn. It is a great thing that we should be in a state to have secrets revealed to us;

• and the greatest secret in our times is the secret of the mystery hidden throughout the ages in God.

• If there is separation, persons get light as to Paul’s ministry.

• Without separation they never get such light; that is, they never understand the greatest secret that has ever been disclosed.

• God has disclosed His greatest secret during the times of the nations, having revealed it to His holy apostles and prophets in the power of the Spirit, and having given Paul special intelligence in it.

• Apart from separation we shall never come into divine secrets;
  • we shall be debarred from understanding Paul’s ministry, which is connected with the fulness of the nations coming in,

  • and also from understanding the secret of God’s ways in government as revealed to Daniel.

• Believers who are not in a separate path are ignorant of both.

F.S. Would the word in Amos 3: 7 encourage us? It says,

• “But the Lord Jehovah will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets”.

G.R.C. I think so. According to Ephesians 3 Paul had special intelligence in the mystery of the Christ,

• but the fundamental features of it were revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the power of the Spirit.

• God would not withhold this secret from His prophets, but neither would He withhold the secret of His ways in government.

• Daniel, in ascribing wisdom and might to God, is unquestionably thinking of His wisdom and might in government;
  • but we, in our day, are brought into both of the divine secrets to which I have referred, and

• Paul’s doxologies in Romans 11 and 16 bear on this. In chapter 11, after recounting God’s ways, he says,
  • “O depths of riches, both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments and untraceable his ways!

  • For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counsellor? …

  • For of him, and through him, and for him are all things: to him be glory for ever. Amen”.

• There he is ascribing wisdom and knowledge to God in connection with His ways which, in their details, are past finding out and yet, in their principles, have been made known.

• Then in the last chapter Paul worships God as the only wise God in relation to the revelation of the mystery.

A.P.B. The end of this vision shows that the stone cut out without hands is to fill everything. Would that correspond with everything being headed up in Christ?

G.R.C. It will result in that. That is one of God’s secrets – the mystery of His will.

A.W.P. Is it not a basic matter that persons must have confidence in God and God have confidence in them before He will let them into His secrets?

G.R.C. Yes. God commits His secrets to persons He can trust, and the Lord tells us the kind of people He will trust. A friend is one to whom all secrets can be told; Jesus said,

• “Ye are my friends if ye practise whatever I command you”, John 15: 14.

• If a person is prepared to do whatever he is commanded without any question, the Lord can trust that man.

• Daniel was such an one. The law of his God governed him. He was not prepared to compromise, he would do whatever God had commanded.

• God never trusts a man who trusts himself, but He trusts a man who judges himself and is prepared to do whatever he is commanded.

H.F.R. The gift of the Spirit is on that basis, is it not? He gives the Spirit to those who obey Him.

G.R.C. That is it. So that the path is very simple, though impossible for the flesh. Our path is one of unquestioning obedience to God in every detail of the law of His house.

Ques. Is that seen in Abraham, who was called the

• “Friend of God”, James 2: 2?

G.R.C. It is, indeed. God says, Genesis 19,

• “For I know him that he will command his children and his household after him”.

A.C.S.P. In that connection would you say why this remarkable light and opportunity for testimony is given to such young men?

G.R.C. Because I believe it is especially the privilege of young men to carry forward the public testimony. What do you say?

A.C.S.P. That is helpful. Would it not make a peculiar appeal to the young men that there should be nothing, either in appearance or ways, that would disqualify them from having a part in things so great?

G.R.C. I am not sure whether young people realize the immense privileges open to them, because God, in a special way, relies on young men to carry the testimony forward.

• The world’s eyes are upon young men and what they do compels attention; and when young men are seen acting courageously for God it is a remarkable testimony.

E.C.M. Does suffering enter into this kind of testimony? You referred to Paul,

• “I will show to him how much he must suffer for my name”.

G.R.C. It does involve suffering, and what a privilege that is! When conflict is on, the world relies on young men, it is young men who are sent to the front.

A.L.O. It is solemn, is it not, that according to John 2: 24 there were those to whom Jesus did not trust Himself?

G.R.C. They were not subject to Him. They were affected by His miracles but there was not full and whole-hearted obedience.

E.C.M. In referring to suffering, I was wondering whether it would bring true manhood into evidence.

G.R.C. We all shrink from suffering, but if we could only realise the privilege of it!

• “If ye are reproached in the name of Christ, blessed are ye, for the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God rests upon you”, 1 Peter 4: 14;

  and the Lord says,

• “Blessed are ye when they may reproach and persecute you, and say every wicked thing against you, lying, for my sake. Rejoice and exult, for your reward is great in the heavens”, Matthew 11.

• That is what God would put before young men and women.

G.H.S.P. Does the reference to the young man in white in the sepulchre, in Mark, bear on this, suggesting youthfulness and purity in view of the service?

G.R.C. Exactly. At the time of the Lord’s apprehension there was a young man with a linen cloth cast about his naked body, but he fled and left the linen cloth behind; he was not equal to the position.

• But in the resurrection scene there was a young man on the right, clothed in a white robe.

R.G.B. In Numbers 1 they were numbered from twenty years old and upwards for military service and they were to declare their pedigree.

• Would that bear on the question of young persons showing that they are real and true in relation to the testimony?

G.R.C. Very good. We have been taught that it is in acting on 2 Timothy 2: 19-22 that we declare our pedigree. We also secure for ourselves a white robe.

W.J. Daniel addresses God as the “God of my fathers”. Had he gathered up things?

G.R.C. He had. He says,

• “Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever”,

  and then at the end,

• “I thank thee, and I praise thee, O God of my fathers”.

• We would not forget the fathers, those who have gone before. We do not forget Paul and Peter and the long line of suffering saints, the martyrs.

• What an honour to be brought into that great testimonial line!

• But then we would go back further; we would address our praise to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

• We go back to Christ Himself, the faithful and true Witness!

F.G.H. You made a remark this morning that in praying for the powers that be it is necessary for us to understand “the times of the nations”, otherwise we may drop down to mere formality. If it would not be detaining you, would you mind saying a word further on that point?

G.R.C. I think this vision helps much as to that. It shows the varied features of rule which God orders during the times of the nations;

• the overriding feature is that there is no authority except from God – that is the gold.

• It was particularly manifested in Nebuchadnezzar’s empire, but the principle has remained ever since.

• Other metals come in historically in the order given here, but, having come in, those features of rule remain, because you will notice that when the stone smote the image, it says in verse 35,
  • “Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold broken in pieces together, and they became like the chaff of the summer threshing-floors”.

• That is to say that, although the principle that there is no authority except from God was manifested in its fulness in the Babylonish empire, the principle remains right through the times of the nations.

• Paul was writing in the time of the fourth empire, and he says,
  • “there is no authority except from God; and those that exist are set up by God”.

• So that the gold has not ceased to be there; indeed the whole image is still existing, for the stone struck the feet of the image, and then all the features which marked the image were broken in pieces together and became like the chaff of the summer threshing-floors.

• In the Medo-Persian kingdom the silver element of rule came into view and while there is the idea of deterioration which is spoken of in verse 39, yet, I believe, there is also another meaning, and that is that
  • in the Persian kingdom God introduced the silver principle into Gentile government; that is, He raised up rulers such as Cyrus who was himself the subject of prophecy in Isaiah 45,

• who considered for God’s rights over His people, and made way governmentally for His house to be rebuilt and His service reestablished.

• Then in the Grecian empire the brass came into view, for it was, generally speaking, a persecuting power, and, from the divine standpoint, a disciplinary power.
  • Therefore the brass indicates that another way in which God uses Gentile rulers is for discipline, when He sees that the state of His people requires it.

• Lastly, the fourth empire, Rome, was especially marked by strength, as suggested in the iron.
  • In the final phase of iron and clay, we can see the greatest deterioration, yet each phase is ordered by God.

• We are thankful for the strength of the iron – constitutional government such as marks the western world.

• But then there is the clay of democracy, a very base principle, yet used of God to afford liberty of conscience to His people.

• So I think, if we get a view of these authorities, whatever their character, as being ordered by God, it will lead to worship and prayer, both of which are found in 1 Timothy,
  • worship to the King of the ages and to the blessed and only Ruler, and prayers for all men and kings and all in dignity.

• If we pray to the blessed and only Ruler it should be in the light of what Daniel said,
  • “it is he that changeth times and seasons; He deposeth kings, and setteth up kings”.

• The question is whether we are intelligent enough to know when a time or a season ought to be changed.

• I am not suggesting a great change like a dispensational change; the Lord says in that connection, the Father reserves times and seasons in His own authority;
  • but as to present detailed changes.

J.McK. Would it be a feature of intelligence with Daniel and his companions that they approached the God of the heavens?

• I was thinking of the idea of God being able for all these things. He does not approach the God of Israel but the God of the heavens.

G.R.C. Does not this book bring out that

• “the heavens do rule”?

J.McK. Yes, and it would include the whole of the created realm – the God of the heavens?

G.R.C. It would; and, in Christianity, we have the whole created realm particularly in mind because our struggle is not against blood and flesh but against principalities and authorities in the heavenlies.

• We recognise the heavenly side of the matter, and our struggle is there.

• But then these evil principalities and authorities in the heavenlies will, if they have the opportunity, influence the powers on earth, as we see later in this book.

J.McK. That is all very instructive. The title

• “ God of the heavens”, and

• “ Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever”,

• would all have in view His wonderful supremacy over all things, and that is where Daniel’s confidence lay.

G.R.C. Paul penetrates farther, because he says,

• “the blessed and only Ruler … the King of those that reign, and Lord of those that exercise lordship; who only has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor is able to see; to whom be honour and eternal might”.

• I cannot but think that one who could thus worship God would know how to pray intelligently, according to 1 Timothy 2.

• That chapter supposes intelligent prayer; because it is not only prayer but supplications and intercessions.

W.C.P. Would the prayer in Acts 4 agree with what you are saying?

• “They, having heard it, lifted up their voice with one accord to God, and said, Lord, thou art the God who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them”.

G.R.C. It would be on a similar line; but Paul penetrates farther in saying

• “dwelling in unapproachable light”.

• That is, in thought he does so, in the power of the Holy Spirit.

• We cannot approach what is unapproachable; but I do not think any but one in the light of Christian revelation could speak in that way.

• How did he know that in those unapproachable conditions, God was dwelling in light?

• It speaks of Him in the Old Testament as dwelling in obscurity, and so He was as far as men were concerned; but
  • Paul knew that His absolute dwelling is in light, light of such a character that it is unapproachable, and yet it is light.

• That is a great thing to come to, and it is the Christian revelation that enables a person to say such a thing;
  • because God having now disclosed Himself in the fullest way in which He can be known to the creature, we discover that He is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

• Therefore, in going back in thought to where God dwells in absoluteness, we know it must be light, though unapproachable.

• But I am drawing attention to the fact that one of the highest notes of worship in Scripture is expressed in relation to the matter of government. Is that right, Mr. Myles?

A.E.M. I think so. But I would like to ask a question as to Daniel. In the first six chapters he is interpreter of dreams,

• but in the last six he is himself dreaming.

• It is God HImself revealing to Daniel that the empires were beasts. That is a private communication.

• You would not address the governments of the nations as beasts – it is for yourself.

G.R.C. Very good. Would not the dreams given to Daniel be to prepare the saints for what they have to face and to fortify them?

• If we have to come into conflict, through testimony, with Gentile powers, we have to be prepared for the fact that they are “beasts” in themselves, and therefore it will almost always entail a measure of suffering.

H.F.R. Hence the importance of knowing God as the

• “King of those that reign, and Lord of those that exercise lordship”.

G.R.C. As we are preserved in the light of that we would not fear a beast, however wild. Paul had no fear of Nero, he said that the Lord delivered him out of the lion’s mouth.

H.F.R. I was thinking of that.

A.J.G. Is it significant that both in chapter 2 and also in chapter 7 God gives a great deal more detail as regards the last empire, that is, the fourth, than as to the others? What would you say as to that?

G.R.C. Does it not show that, while in a primary sense the prophecy has to do with Israel and its hopes and sufferings,

• yet the whole of the church period was very much in the Spirit’s mind?

A.J.G. I was wondering that also. Therefore the assembly is in view in what is to be worked out during the dominion of the fourth empire.

G.R.C. Just so. Christ Himself was to come under that empire and then there was to be this long period of time – a hiatus in prophetic history of nearly two thousand years.

• The whole time from Nebuchadnezzar to Christ was only about six hundred years, but now we have had nearly two thousand years of the Christian era,
  • yet it is still the times of the nations.

• The present period is a kind of hiatus in the prophetic record, when God is working out the greatest of all matters, and the fulness of the nations is coming in in its greatest sense.

• Following this period nations as nations will come into blessing, but it will be a very short work, it will not involve the skilled operations of the present day.
  • The prophet says, “Shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion travailed she brought forth her sons”, Isaiah 66: 8.

• There will be a rapid work, but nothing compared with the quality of the work proceeding now.

• Therefore, in view of the importance of what is going on now, God would help us to understand the secret revealed to Daniel as regards Nebuchadnezzar’s vision, as well as his own visions,
  • so that we might be furnished in the knowledge of His ways as the blessed and only Ruler,

• and have confiding intercourse with Him, according to 1 Timothy 2: 1 – see footnote – as to matters of rule. Is that right?

A.J.G. I am sure it is.

A.B. You were saying that the earlier features of the empire – the gold and the silver and the brass – are carried down to the later phases, the present phase. Could you say more as to how that works out?

G.R.C. It applies especially during this hiatus. You see, while we are, in a way, in the time of the fourth kingdom, it is a modified form of it. It is not purely Roman in character.

• The western world is the ‘follow on’ of the Roman empire, but it is a modified form of things, in which we can see clearly enough that the other forms of rule run on.
  • First of all, “there is no authority except from God”, still applies.

• We are not yet at the time when the dragon gives his throne and authority to the beast; we are still in a time when we can say,
  • “there is no authority except from God; and those that exist are set up by God”.

• So that the principle of the gold is still with us; and then, especially in these days of recovery, the principle of the silver has come into view.

• God has raised up rulers, prepared by Himself, as instruments of government, who have been favourable to His people and
  • have made way, in their governmental matters, for the saints to have liberty to return to first principles without fear of man’s interference.

• That is all God’s mercy, it is the ‘silver’ type of rule.

• But then, the ‘brass’ type of rule runs on because, in its extended form, it is outside of the Roman empire.

• The Grecian empire was divided into four parts, and the part in which the brass particularly remains in evidence is the northern part, called later
  • “the king of the north”, and that power never comes into the orbit of the fourth empire.

• During this dispensation that element has not been lacking.

• God has at times permitted men marked by that feature of rule to rise up – we have had it in our own day.

• We have been through two world wars marked by this feature of brass, God dealing in a disciplinary way with Christendom as a whole, but with ourselves also; and all that should humble us before God.

• There have been earlier examples of it in the Christian era.
  • But then, over all, during this period, we have the iron. That is, we thank God for the stability of government in the western world,

• and yet there is the mixture of democracy – the clay – which is terrible in its baseness. Yet even that God uses. Is this correct?

A.E.M. I understand it is so.

G.R.C. Would not all this help us as to prayer?

A.B. It emphasises the beneficial side of government, and, as you say, it would encourage our prayers that God may use all these things for the welfare and gain of His people.

G.R.C. Just so. “Wisdom and might are his”, that is, nothing can happen without God. Might belongs to Him.

• We must look beyond second causes and allow for His wisdom to operate in governmental matters.
  • “Wisdom and might are his. And it is he that changeth times and seasons”.

• In a way, we never know when they are going to change. The great change is about to come when the Lord Jesus will come, and direct government will supersede the indirect.

• Also we do not know when times and seasons, in a detailed way, may change. We have had favourable conditions in this land and we must still pray for them;
  • but “it is he that changeth times and seasons; He deposeth kings, and setteth up kings”.

• I would think there is liberty to approach God in these matters. There are brethren, for instance, in Russia to whom we have no access; why should that be?

E.C.M. Do you think there is great significance attaching to what Paul says,

• “I exhort therefore, first of all”,

• as though it is an urgent matter?

G.R.C. It is an urgent matter, and I believe the word “first of all” means that

• it is first of all from the standpoint of testimony.

E.C.M. That is what I was thinking in regard to the brethren who are still deprived of their privileges of assembling together in a public way.

F.P.S. “Who desires that all men should be saved”

• – all men, not only the brethren.

G.R.C. We have to keep in mind, do we not, that Ephesians and 1 Timothy have to be read together. 1 Timothy is a complementary instruction to the epistle to the Ephesians.

• The latter brings out the great truth of God’s habitation in the Spirit subsisting here on earth, in chapter 2, and the service which proceeds in it in chapter 3, ending with all prayer and supplication at all seasons with all perseverance for all saints in chapter 6.

• Now that is one side and that, no doubt, takes precedence; that is the great matter God has on hand, what He is doing in the saints.

• But then, co-related to that, we have the instruction written to Timothy at Ephesus as to the testimonial aspect of the house of God, and in that connection
  • he says, “I exhort therefore, first of all.”

  • That is, there is nothing more important from the testimonial angle than the kind of prayer in 1 Timothy 2.

• If a man comes into the meeting and does not hear prayer of that kind, we fail to represent God in His own house.

• It is put before conduct; conduct comes next in the chapter; but the first and foremost thing in testimony is that anyone approaching God in His house should hear
  • supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanks-givings for all men, for kings and all in dignity;

• and if they do not hear that, God is not rightly represented in His house, which is a most solemn matter.

A.E.M. You are speaking of a most important matter. I think most of us are clear about the question of conscience, as regards ourselves;

• but whether we are clear as regards the truth;
  • the rights of God,

  • the rights of Christ and

  • the duties and responsibilities of the assembly,

• is another matter.

G.R.C. Could you say more as to those three things.

A.E.M. The Lord witnessed before Pontius Pilate as regards the truth, the whole truth.

• We must have in mind witness for the whole truth.

• It includes the rights of God and the rights of Christ.

• He also has rights over the assembly: the government must not interfere with that.

G.R.C. So if governments seek to interfere with God’s rights in His own house, we should approach them and

• the truth should be stated to them, because the power they are wielding is given them by God; they are responsible to Him.

• Do you think, in that way, it is only fair to them that they should be warned as to what they are doing with the power delegated to them, because they will come into judgment on that account?

A.E.M. Quite so. The Christian is the only one who is competent to tell the nations what is going to happen.

F.W.K. The Lord warned Pilate. The authority which belonged to Pilate was from above.

G.R.C. And that word went right home to Pilate’s conscience. There was a man who, it may be, had been a careless one of the nations up to that time, but the word from the Lord went right home:

• “Thou hadst no authority whatever against me if it were not given to thee from above”, John 19: 11; and that is the truth.

A.E.M. And it extended to his wife.

G.R.C. It did; there was thus an effective testimony to the Gentile ruler.

F.W.T. Psalm 105 says, He “reproved kings for their sakes”.

G.R.C. Very good. It says in verse 16,

• “Daniel went in, and requested of the king”

  and then in verse 25,

• “Arioch brought in Daniel before the king”.

• Many of us may have had misgivings as to whether we ought to approach authorities and with some there may still be such feeling.

• It is on the minds of the French brethren to approach the highest authorities in that land at the present moment.

• Could you say a word to help us, Mr. Myles?

A.E.M. Could we read a verse in Exodus 8: 20,

• “Jehovah said to Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh – behold, he will go out to the water – and say to him, Thus saith Jehovah, Let my people go, that they may serve me”.

• That is another example of standing before the king and maintaining the rights of God.

G.R.C. You mean that God had rights over His people, He had rights over their service?

A.E.M. Moses was to stand before Pharaoh – not after him but before him – on the way to the water early in the morning.

J.J.T. You were saying this morning that wisdom and might are God’s. Lower down it says that He has given me wisdom and might. Would that not come into the question you are now raising as to coming in before the king?

G.R.C. I think that would be the point of it. It is a remarkable thing. Wisdom and might are His; that is, all true wisdom and all might belong to God ; they are nowhere else.

• The wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.
  • Then Daniel says, “Who hast given me wisdom and might”, verse 23.

• We think sometimes of David’s words,
  • “in thy hand is power and might; and in thy hand it is to make all great and strong”, 1 Chronicles 29: 12.

• That is in the service of God, God would make us great and strong there.

• But here He is giving Daniel wisdom and might to stand in the presence of the king. It was the might of God that was in Daniel.

• I believe that is the great point to understand, that if God orders that His direct representatives should stand in the presence of earthly rulers,
  • it is to the end that earthly rulers might be brought to acknowledge that the might, operating in His direct representatives, is greater than the power He has delegated to them.

R.G.B. Do we see in Nehemiah how that operates? It says that Nehemiah prayed to the God of the heavens, and God gave him favour with the ruler and a way was made for the people, so that the rights of God might be respected among the saints.

G.R.C. That is very good. He was feeling his weakness, and so would anyone in that position. We would not get wisdom and might from God if we did not feel our weakness.

• God alone stands in His own strength; that is what the word ‘El’ signifies; all other strength is derived,
  • whether we think of inanimate bodies, like the sun, or whether we think of men or angels, all other strength is derived.

• No one has strength except it has come from God. But then, the power with which He invests the saints today is the power of the Holy Spirit.
  • “Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world”, 1 John 4: 4.

• And I believe, if a saint has to appear before a ruler, it has in view that the ruler should be brought
  • to recognise that the might of God in the Spirit, operating in that saint, is greater than the power delegated to the ruler;

• and if the two come into collision the saint will always win. Even though he may be slain he will be the victor.

A.J.G. Is that not seen in the way that Nebuchadnezzar at the end falls on his face and worships Daniel?

G.R.C. Quite so. He was consciously in the presence of a power greater than himself or anything that had been delegated to him; he was in the presence of the power of God operating in Daniel.

–.C. Would that be seen in Paul in front of Agrippa?

• “With the help which is from God, I have stood firm unto this day”, Acts 26: 22.

G.R.C. I have no doubt at all that Agrippa would get the sense that the power operating in that chained prisoner was greater than any power he had met before; and that is the truth as to the saints.

• We can rest assured of this that if the power wielding delegated authority in this world comes into collision with the power operating in the saints, it will always be defeated.

• It may mean martyrdom for some of the saints, but that power will always have to go down in the end.

• It is just a question of our being faithful and in a right state of soul to have divine support.

W.G.C. Would that be seen in Stephen when it says they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit with which he spoke?

G.R.C. Quite so. He had to appear before the sanhedrim which condemned the Lord.

H.F.R. The opposing powers in this country went down before the martyrs in the middle ages.

G.R.C. It is a marvellous thing to look back in spiritual history and see how this has been verified,

• when men, outwardly defenceless, have been called upon to bear witness before authorities as to the rights of God.

S.W. Paul said, “the Lord stood with me, and gave me power”, 2 Timothy 4: 17.

• Is that the secret of it, do you think, that the Lord is with His servants?

G.R.C. Very good. Paul was in the presence of the lion. The dreams to Daniel were to furnish the saints and to prepare them for the character of things they would have to face.

• When the powers do come into collision with the saints and reject the rights of God, their bestial character becomes manifest.

• Paul was in the presence of the Roman power in bestial character, and he said,
  • “the Lord stood with me, and gave me power”.

• The might of God was there.
  • He said, “through me the proclamation might be fully made”.

• He was fully victorious.

D.McI. Is there a suggestion of the power in verse 44?

• “In the days of these kings shall the God, of the heavens set up a kingdom which shall never; be destroyed”.

G.R.C. Yes. It is interesting the way it is put. The stone cut out without hands, which smote the image, is not said here to be Christ personally, although we know,

• in the manifestation of the kingdom publicly, Christ will personally bring down the image and sweep away the whole system of indirect government to introduce His own direct government in the earth.

• Nevertheless it says,
  • “in the days of these kings shall the God of the heavens set up a kingdom”.

• I would suggest that that kingdom already exists; the Lord preached that the kingdom of God is drawn nigh,
  • but in Acts it was preached, not as drawn nigh, but as established – see Acts 20: 25; 28: 31, etc.

• It was established and existing on the earth, and it has been existing all through this dispensation.

H.F.R. Does that involve the presence of the Spirit?

G.R.C. It does. It involves the presence of the Spirit in the saints; the kingdom of God is here and it is set up in the days of these kings.

• So that we may well read the present period, though strictly outside of Old Testament prophetic testimony, into this verse, which says,
  • “in the days of these kings”.

• While all these forms of government are going on, the God of the heavens has set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed.

J.M. Does it come into Revelation when John says

• He has “made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father”, Revelation 1: 6?

G.R.C. Quite so. He has made us a kingdom, and it is a kingdom which will never be destroyed. It is a kingdom which, when it is manifested in its public character in Christ Himself and the saints, will fill the whole earth.

A.H. Why is priesthood linked up with that in Revelation 1: 6?

G.R.C. Because the kingdom is established in order that every feature of service proper to the house might be maintained.

• Our testimonial stand in the governmental sphere is in view of the maintenance of all that is due to God in His house.

A.H. I wondered whether it linked up with your reference to intercession in Timothy.

G.R.C. Quite so. While it is of the first importance testimonially that anyone coming into the house of God should hear prayers of that kind,

• yet the purpose of the intercession is that the saints, as leading a quiet and tranquil life, should be able to pursue without any hindrance the truth set out in Ephesians;