| INTRODUCTION |
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| THE WORD OF THE CROSS Bristol, September 13-15, 1955 J. S. Ephgrave |
Mr. J. S. Ephgrave was local at Waltham Cross, near London. He had served in the Britush Army at one time but it is not known whether he had become blind in the service.
This page has 'The Word of the Cross' – six readings in Paul's Epistles and the Gospels – and 'Practical Loyalty to the Fellowship', Bristol, September 13-15, 1955.
G.A.R.
| READING 1 |
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| THE WORD OF THE CROSS (1) 1 Corinthians 1: 10-end; 2: 6-end – September 13, 1955 |
J.S.E. It is thought that we might pursue an enquiry during these meetings in relation to the word of the cross, a term which is formally employed in these scriptures, but the bearing of it extensive, and the time is ripe for us to be more in the understanding of it by the Spirit.
I thought this afternoon that we might view it peculiarly from the Corinthian angle, and, as helped of the Lord and of the Spirit, subsequently from other points of view.
We should all register the significance with which Paul commences this epistle, bringing in the word of the cross to bear upon us in our cities and places, in view of our being freed from what generally marks the age.
A.P.B. Yes, I am sure. Is it the thought that the cross exposes man, the first man, and removes him.
J.S.E. Paul says here that Christ has not sent him to baptise but to preach glad tidings, and then he speaks of the cross of the Christ,
J.McK. Does the word of the cross and the acceptance of it form a kind of moral basis for the use of the word “us” and “we”?
J.S.E. I think, to be simple, it is the basis for the enjoyment of assembly life. I should be glad if the brethren would say what they think.
P.H.H. So that whereas in Romans the death of Christ or the cross, in the way that Paul may speak of it, is left for a while, in Corinthians Paul places it at the threshold of the assembly?
J.S.E. Yes. It is that, that has impressed one’s own spirit; that neither in the Thessalonian letters nor in the epistle to the Romans does he formally refer to the cross,
L.T.R. Why does it say that the word of the cross is the power of God at the entrance of our assembly privilege?
J.S.E. You have to read it as it is set. It says,
A.P.B. What does it mean, “Us that are saved”?
J.S.E. Paul is bringing home to the brethren a challenge as to whether they really are saved; they were not saved in the way that one is thinking;
W.B.H. Is there a link with that passage in Romans 1 where Paul says,
W.B.H. I was only thinking of the teaching of the epistle to the Romans as bearing upon assembly personnel.
J.S.E. That is so, but much has come to us of recent times through the ministry as to the necessity of really getting to grips with the truth of the assembly, and that involves what is collective.
P.S. Would a saved person be one who is completely delivered out of the world though here in bodily presence?
J.S.E. He says, “To us that are saved”, and the ‘us’ refers to persons on the earth. It is a great thing to see that.
R.C. As of the assembly would they be called out ones in that way?
J.S.E. Yes, quite so.
E.H. Paul said to the Philippians,
J.S.E. That is not exactly the power of God as it is put here. It says,
A.W.G.T. Does it particularly relate primarily to our relations with one another?
J.S.E. I think that is an important remark, because whilst the assembly formally is very much to the front in this epistle;
R.C. Does the word of the cross involve that we understand the teaching of it, that the teaching of it has entered in to us?
J.S.E. It is a question whether we are perishing or whether we are saved. This epistle brings up in chapter 10 certain things.
P.L. In the great ‘assembly’ chapter 16 in Matthew where “My assembly” is brought in by the Lord, do you think that Peter is saved from perishing by the drastic way the Lord speaks to him and then immediately alludes to the thought of denying himself, taking up his cross and following Him?
J.S.E. Yes. I am hoping, as we get some substantial enlargement through what we have here, the Spirit may help us in relation to the Gospels, because we must come to them.
F.B. Would this not involve complete salvation by the setting aside entirely of the first order of man?
J.S.E. We are so conversant with terms that we are in danger at times of by-passing the severity of the challenge contained in a passage like this.
F.B. Would you say complete salvation is involved in the setting aside of the first order of man and that it is an individual question for each one of us?
J.S.E. Yes. That is all developed in the Epistle to the Romans and then the challenge is as to whether we are among the ‘us’ or whether we are among the ‘them’.
F.B. I can say, Thank God I am among the ‘us’.
P.H.H. Do you think the women spoken of in John’s Gospel standing by the cross would in any way illustrate the ‘us’, that is to say indicative of persons in whom the word figuratively has had its full force?
J.S.E. I am sure that is how it stands, and that is why it is reserved for John to record it.
P.H.H. Jesus saying to his mother “Woman, behold thy son” might indicate, would you say, that there is material there to conserve every divine interest in consistency with the cross.
J.S.E. That is how it works and that is why I think this term in its formal usage is brought in here, because, although the position was ostensibly intact, there were these underlying features in the place which precluded the truth flowing in its richness and normality amongst them.
G.B. Would the naming of the place where the Lord was crucified in the Gospels have some bearing on what you have in mind here?
J.S.E. You mean they all uniformly speak of Golgotha?
G.B. Yes, the place of a skull.
J.S.E. Yes, quite so. As we come to certain other parts of the teaching we find how advantage has been divinely taken of the circumstances,
P.L. The virgin-daughter of Zion despiseth thee. Isaiah 37: 22.
J.S.E. Yes, that is it.
E.H. We do not want the work of the cross to be made vain in us. Would you enlarge a little on that?
J.S.E. Yes, it is important to see that the term ‘the work of the cross’ does not appear here, it is the cross itself and the word of the cross.
J.McK. In being the word of the cross, perhaps it would not merely imply what is true about the cross but what is active in our souls and in the souls of men in the power of God by the word.
J.S.E. And do you not think that the observation of the translator as to the expression “the word” helps?
J.McK. So that we would thankfully accept the annulling, not only of things in general, but we would learn the way things are annulled in our own minds and hearts? It would be into that condition that what is spiritual can be brought?
J.S.E. Just so. I thought that that might be the reason why the term “the cross” is used twice in the first chapter and then in the second the allusion to the responsibility of the princes of this age who crucified – that is, who actually put Christ on the cross – and that chapter is so full of allusions to the Spirit and to what is spiritual.
J.G.M. Has the “scandal of the cross” any bearing upon the “word of the cross”?
J.S.E. You are taking us to another department of the teaching.
W.S.S. It has been suggested that the word of the cross could be expressed in the word – the import of the cross, the bearing of it. The verse which follows seems to help in that way,
J.S.E. The course of logic cannot find a solution in the cross. The Spirit of God has recorded and registered certain things in certain parts of the Scriptures, and His intention is that the saints who are committed to the assembly become intelligent as to that.
W.S.S. That is what I was thinking with regard to the passages before us. The brethren at Corinth were not in the enjoyment of assembly life and needed this word, which we all need at all times, of course, as removing the elements among them which were a hindrance to them. Is that right?
J.S.E. We all understand the thought of removal, at least I trust we do.
W.S.S. So the word of the cross would set us free.
J.S.E. Quite so.
L.T.R. Would Caleb represent a person who had accepted it, and power was expressed in him in relation to the assembly?
J.S.E. He is certainly a very wonderful man, but I am a little hesitant in taking the cross into the Old Testament, because it is something that never belonged to any of the earlier monarchies.
T.J.G. In verse 21 there is an expression
J.S.E. It is not the foolishness of the preaching that saves them it says,
T.J.G. The footnote says that ‘the preaching’ is the actual thing preached.
J.S.E. Yes, quite so. But it is “God has been pleased by the foolishness of the preaching to save…” ‘God’ Himself is antecedent of course to ‘save’.
T.J.G. I was referring to it because there is the word ‘save’ and the added thought of believing.
J.S.E. “To save those that believe”. Quite so.
A.M. Is it not a very serious thing that the cross may be made vain? Is not that amongst Christians, professing Christians?
J.S.E. And may we come a little closer home, have we not had to face it in our midst?
A.M. I thought that it would include us – that is your exercise?
J.S.E. Yes. These cases – and you have had your share of them in London – of young people going off and finding their home and their life in the age. in the world as Corinthians presents it.
A.M. I thought that the enemy had summoned up all the wisdom at his disposal to nullify the cross of Christ. He is doing that today.
J.S.E. Yes. And God, we might say reverently, puts forth His foolishness to nullify all that wisdom. That sounds rather a disrespectful statement, but I am thinking of this word,
and that is why it says
C.H.M. Would Daniel help as to this – the stone cut out without hands? It smites the feet of the image. You were speaking of the Roman empire, it smites the feet and destroys it.
J.S.E. Yes. No doubt that is an allusion to Christ Himself in His monarchical power.
M.G.W. I was wondering whether the passage in Hebrews 13 which says
J.S.E. You will notice how careful the Spirit is with the Hebrews that He only uses the term “the cross” once, and it is in relation to Jesus enduring it. There is wisdom in that.
W.B.H. Is that why Paul makes use of that expression “the cross of Christ”, Philippians 3: 18?
J.S.E. Yes. Quite so. I think what we need – I say, ‘we’ because I need it myself – is to really understand that Paul was the first minister in Christianity to bring into relief the wealth and bearing connected with the word of the cross.
H.W. And was that because he had the glorious truth of the assembly to bring in, that there had to be this complete acceptance of the bearing of the cross before we could be brought into the fulness of what God had for us?
J.S.E. Did you say that was because he had it? Quite so. From the standpoint we are seeking help on this is the basis by means of which we may arrive at the more glorious references to the cross,
H.W. He seems to emphasise it in all his church epistles. Is that so?
J.S.E. In most of them.
P.H.H. Is the emphasis somewhat changed when we come to “Christ crucified”? What is the link in your mind?
J.S.E. I think that that is part of the word of the cross, and the brethren would understand that as he wrote to them about it.
F.B. In chapter 2 the apostle said,
J.S.E. When he was with them. “I did not judge it well”, he is virtually reminding them that they had had an oral ministry on this line, and had bypassed it.
F.B. We should like you to tell us how you view the word of the cross.
J.S.E. It is not a question of how I view it, but what it is. I think it is just the simple fact that if I am found happy in all the features of assembly life and taking my part in them, you could easily write me down as among the saved,
A.W.G.T. Does what we have been speaking about really give us the power to answer to Paul’s exhortation with which we began,
J.S.E. Quite so. That is an exhortation.
A.W.G.T. I thought that what you are speaking about now is the power for carrying out that exhortation.
J.S.E. God’s power is in the cross. It says,
J.McK. Do you think that in verse 3 of chapter 2,
J.S.E. I would say so. Does not that bring up a principle,
H.W. Is that what the apostle meant when, in writing to the Galatians, he spoke about Christ having been portrayed as crucified among them? It was set forth in his preaching?
J.S.E. Yes, I think so.
W.B.H. And I notice that here in verse 3 referred to, the ‘I’ is emphatic.
H.J.M. And then it was not only set forth in his preaching, the portrayal was in the servant, was it not?
J.S.E. The person. That is what I meant in the matter of efficiency.
H.W. That follows upon his statement
J.S.E. Yes.
W.S.S. What you have in mind I judge is that if this is true of us, the import of the cross being known in our souls, we shall be marked by these features.
J.S.E. As we go forward in the various departments connected with the epistle, what a difference would be found in what we call the meetings of assembly character!
W.S.S. I suppose the difficulties that have arisen in relation to the ministry have been due to weakness in this matter among the saints?
J.S.E. I think that is how it stands, so that we come on to the Lord’s supper; the features of the body and the prophetic ministry. All these things are built up on this foundation.
W.S.S. We are inclined to attach these weaknesses to certain persons, persons who have missed their way perhaps, but does it not reflect upon the saints as a whole?
J.S.E. This is to “the assembly of God which is in Corinth”.
A.W.G.T. That is that we will not allow anything inconsistent in our service or in our relations with one another?
J.S.E. The word of the cross determines it all, so that I could not afford to have any abiding links with persons outside the assembly.
W.S.S. You do not live with them.
J.S.E. So that if someone near to me in nature calls just before the meeting for prayer, well, they are made to understand where my abiding links are, and they do not detain me. These things are practical matters which bring up whether we are among the saved or not.
Ques. “Take up his cross and follow me”.
J.S.E. Yes; that is his cross.
J.McK. Is there a moral sphere in this part of chapter 2 that was read where the truth of the cross is owned and known, and does that serve as assembly ground?
J.S.E. I think so. So with the word ‘us’ and the word ‘we’, we might, of course, be light and free and easy and say that it is all of us, but the question arises, Is it?
W.B.H. So in that way we prove ourselves to be saved persons?
J.S.E. If we are; quite so.
A.P.B. Would you think that the Lord recently has been disturbing the complacency that may have settled on the brethren?
J.S.E. One has been challenged oneself as sharing with the brethren in various places in what they are passing through;
P.H.H. What is the bearing of the word ‘perfect’ – “But we speak wisdom among the perfect”?
J.S.E. Is not that a challenge to the Corinthians that they were not just that, but there were some who were; and you know, as well as other brethren who serve,
P.H.H. Yes. Would the practical truth of the body known in certain areas and localities more than in others be one of the reasons for that?
J.S.E. I think so; the place where Paul was when he wrote this letter was one such place.
P.L. No; you are dwelling on the challenging character of these occasions?
J.S.E. Yes, and I think that is that Paul is doing in these first two chapters.
A.P.B. Would you say that Paul, in taking things up at Corinth, saw in what had been allowed and what had come to light circumstantially there, symptoms of an underlying serious disorder,
J.S.E. Yes. Think of this challenging question – and Corinthians is full of questions – the more intensely moral the ministry is the more interrogations you will find in it.
H.L.T. So that it is very necessary for us to maintain the truth of the cross day by day, and we are ever learning something deeper of the truth?
J.S.E. Quite so. It forms a kind of line of demarcation.
R.C. Is it the means by which God eliminates all that would hinder our being thoroughly in the assembly?
J.S.E. I think so. Only the matter is put on us here in a responsible way and when brethren are found subsequently in the ministry of Paul answering to their responsibilities he brings the cross in from a much more exalted angle.
H.L.T. So we delight to appropriate the provision the Lord has graciously made for us, in the cross. God has shown us the way out in this way, and we must not allow anything contrary to that.
J.S.E. I do not know that that is just the point of view here. It is this matter of the line of demarcation.
A.P.B. Would you say that nothing has so much shown up the true character of the age in which we live, and it is now a test of our loyalty?
J.S.E. That is it. That is the breathing of the whole of this epistle, as to who will be loyal to this titular Monarch in the very world where He has been crucified.
E.B.I. Referring to Psalm 139, would the word of the cross have the same effect on us as upon David who said “Search me, O God” in view of being emptied and taking on the spiritual side?
J.S.E. This matter of searching comes up in the next chapter when we come to the Spirit.
H.J.W. Was Paul speaking as one of the “us who are saved” when he said,
J.S.E. Yes, I think that is right.
E.H. Do you see the same thought when the Lord Jesus said to His disciples in John’s gospel, “Will ye also go away”? There is the line of demarcation in following?
J.S.E. Quite so. But that is Christ Himself as the minister, and the cross had not yet come into view.
J.McK. Is that suggested in verses 6 and 7, not only where the wisdom is spoken amongst the perfect but how it is spoken – in a mystery?
J.S.E. I think that we are getting somewhere now together, and I believe the Spirit will register it with us.
E.A.E. When Peter had preached in Acts 2 he calls upon those to be saved from this perverse generation, and then we find that
and at the end
J.S.E. I think so; “added together” is the word. Is it not interesting that in those early chapters in Acts the great emphasis of the Spirit in the ministry is dominical and I believe that
P.H.H. Do you think the thought of what is dominical occurs in an attractive setting in the term
J.S.E. Yes, and that ‘us’ to whom these things are revealed is the same ‘us’ as in chapter 1 – “us who are saved”. We need to be simple about these things.
F.B. Are we to understand by what you have brought before us, that if the preaching of the cross has its right and proper effect on us,
J.S.E. Yes, We preach Christ, we preach a Person. That is how the scripture puts it, but the word of the cross – it does not say ‘we’ or what we do, it is what it is, it is to them that perish foolishness, but to us that are saved it is God’s power.
P.L. Surely. And the Spirit always helps as you concentrate on the Person of the Lord.
A.P.B. Was it not Mr. Darby’s occupation with the Person that enabled him to refute Bethesda and its neutrality, or attempted neutrality, and is not the middle man between the world and ourselves a danger?
| See History: Events at Plymouth … and … Bethesda: W. Trotter and History: Early Contentions: The Bethesda Circular: J. N. Darby |
J.S.E. Yes. You have the thing historically, but all have had experience as to it, and I believe it is with a view to helping the brethren.
T.R. In Acts 16 when the man enquired of Paul and Silas what he must do to be saved, they both say together,
J.S.E. Quite so.
| READING 2 |
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| THE WORD OF THE CROSS (2) Galatians 2: 18-21; 5: 11-18; 6: 11-18 – September 13, 1955 |
J.S.E. It is clear in this letter that the word of the cross is brought to bear upon the saints in relation to the wretchedness of material religion, and we should notice the strong language that is used,
I thought that these three sections of the book would suffice for reading in view of our enquiry, and particularly,
J.McK. Do you think that in the reference to throwing down and building again he would have in mind what Peter was inclined to do at Antioch?
J.S.E. I think that was what was in his mind. Some have said that it is part of his word to Peter. Whether that is so or not is of little consequence;
In the body of this letter he twice refers to Arabia, and I think that they are the only occurrences of any such reference in the New Testament.
P.L. Does it attach to the desert waste, the arid conditions – is not Ishmael connected with Arabia?
J.S.E. Geographically, that is so, but I thought by the way he brings up “Mount Sinai in Arabia” he has in mind the sterility of the material system – its valuelessness,
A.M. Would you say something about the power to convict – that comes into this incident? “He was to be condemned” or “convicted of evil”.
J.S.E. “Before all”. I think it is to help us to see how serious and critical the situation was that such an action had to be taken in order to clarify the position and the fact that
A.W.G.T. Does the fact that the whole area was infected show how rapidly things may disintegrate if they are not thoroughly judged?
J.S.E. Does it not show too how easily we may be caught by something that is patronising in its setting, and yet may be a compromise of principle, because Peter had a wonderful place and reputation in Jerusalem, but it is a question of taking on the truth as it stands related to what is above?
J.McK. Were you thinking that in being crucified with Christ the apostle was carrying forward along with him the word of the cross, and that there was no going back on it? As crucified with Christ he could never go back on it?
J.S.E. That is right. In the Corinthian allusions, chapters 1 and 2, Paul has particularly the philosophic element before him,
W.S.S. Do we see in Peter the danger of compromising?
J.S.E. I think that is easy to see. One is concerned about the spirit that was animating Paul, in taking this stand against the most renowned man amongst the twelve, even if it meant in principle laying down his life for the brethren.
W.S.S. We should take home to ourselves, should we not, both the tendency in us to the kind of thing we see in Peter, but then we should desire to be marked by the spirit we see in Paul?
J.S.E. In the two men you have something extreme; and Paul qualifies the whole position by this statement,
T.J.G. Is it to be noted that the apostle is not referring to it as a historical fact, he does not say ‘I have been’ but “I am crucified”.
J.S.E. What can we say? We get about a good deal, you and I and others too, what can we say?
T.J.G. I wondered if in the apostle’s case he was stressing the ever present power of the cross and the word of the cross.
J.S.E. I think so; What can we say? How do we move in and out among the brethren? Is it in this spirit?
A.W.G.T. He was held there – “crucified with” means that he was held there.
J.S.E. Quite so.
W.B.H. So he says, “So I have become your enemy in speaking the truth to you”, Galatians 4: 16.
J.S.E. There it is.
P.H.H. I think you said this afternoon, that Corinthians presents more the necessity for dealing with moral matters, and Galatians with matters of the truth.
J.S.E. Yes; moral matters, of course, are connected with the truth, but what I meant was
P.H.H. Quite so, and the full light of the truth now shining here in Galatians, would you say, and the bringing in of
J.S.E. No.
H.J.M. Is that why he speaks of the ‘portrayal’ of Jesus Christ as being “crucified among you”?
J.S.E. We have had a look at that during the interval, and what has struck me is that the word “among you” is bracketed. It says,
H.W. Would it be connected with the statement in 2 Corinthians where he says,
J.S.E. That is a more delicate thought. I do not think there is anything so vehement in his ministry as is found in this epistle; he speaks of having been in Arabia, and later refers to Arabia,
A.M. Is that expression “I may live to God” absolute and true of all Christians, or does it in itself raise a challenge?
J.S.E. Will you please read it?
A.M. “For I, through law, have died to law, that I may live to God”.
J.S.E. My impression is that the emphasis on the ‘I’ makes it clear that he is only speaking for himself. Can I speak for myself? Can you speak for yourself?
H.J.M. Does it not represent, by way of the truth of the cross, the development of spiritual personality as over against natural personality?
J.S.E. Quite so, and that personality as over against mere ability to discourse. We have to be able to speak. I remember dear Mr. Taylor saying years ago that we have to learn to read and write, but to make ministerial capabilities an object may be the greatest detriment to oneself.
H.J.M. Is there a distinction between the truth of the cross and the truth as to the ‘tree’ that is brought in later? Would it divert you to ask that?
J.S.E. He brings out there, Galatians 3: 13, actually a quotation from Deuteronomy 21: 23;
L.E.R. I would like to ask what Titus represents in this setting as being “with Paul”? It is mentioned twice.
J.S.E. He brought Titus forward to show that he was not in any sense antagonising Jewish prejudices or customs, but at the same time
F.B. I would like to ask, is it when the patronising element comes in amongst us that the test comes?
J.S.E. You meant by calling him a legal man, that James was under the influence of Judaistic religion?
P.L. With regard to intensity, Aaron ran when the plague was there, and put on incense and made atonement for the people and he stood between the dead and the living and the plague was stayed. Is that the same sort of intensity? He ran. Is this necessary?
J.S.E. I think so. We could save the brethren from a lot of difficulty if we were really crucified persons.
W.S.S. Was not Paul taken up to show how the truth works out in a man of like passions with ourselves; becoming in that way a model for us that the truth might take shape in us in the same way?
J.S.E. Yes.
P.H.H. I would like to ask about Paul’s statement,
J.S.E. I think so. So that at the end of Peter’s life he uses expressions which indicate to us how thoroughly he appreciated all the ministry of Paul. It seems as if he had read all the letters that Paul had written because he speaks of “all his epistles”.
J.H. Do you think in that way that he would have had a sense of Christ living in him?
J.S.E. You are referring to Peter when he wrote the epistles? I am sure of that because he speaks of his tabernacle in the most calm and dignified way.
W.S.S. Is the great end in view in what you are drawing our attention to in Corinthians and Galatians, making way for the Spirit that we may be in the enjoyment of the present truth?
J.S.E. Yes, and making way for the Spirit for the immediate purpose of extrication in the most thorough way from these two elements suggested in the Jew and the Greek. I do not think that we can get anywhere in relation to the fuller thoughts of the assembly save as we come this way.
W.S.S. There must be extrication first.
J.S.E. As regards extrication these are the two outstanding letters in Paul’s ministry. They precede all the rest in their allusions to the cross.
W.S.S. Paul would have great thoughts in his mind for them in bringing in the import of the cross, the scandal of the cross.
J.S.E. Quite so.
A.W.G.T. I should like to ask a question about this matter of crucifixion, whether frankness is not connected with it. Early in chapter 2 Paul says
J.S.E. Quite so. And if we do not understand a matter, to be simple and say so and not hide our not understanding and lead others to think we do.
E.H. If you are faithful you will always have persecution. I was thinking of the Lord and of the opposition against Him, all His life, and of how it was similar with Paul.
J.S.E. A crucified person is finished so far as ulterior matters are concerned.
P.H.H. Is that why it says “Christ lives in me”?
J.S.E. Our attention has often been drawn to these prepositions, and this one, of course, is that of power; so that you can easily see the link with the word in Corinthians that the word of the cross is to those who perish foolishness but to us who are saved it is God’s power.
J.McK. So was there demonstration in it that could not be gainsaid? “Christ lives in me”.
J.S.E. Nobody could contradict him. Nobody raised a word at Antioch. They all sat, held by the power of God, witnessed in what was said.
P.L. His enemies had to admit that his letters were powerful.
J.S.E. Yes. The greatest enemies of the truth are connected with the inflexibility of mere religion.
E.H. Would you say that Paul demonstrated the truth of what he was in the gain of, and no opposition or trial he passed through affected him in his spirit?
J.S.E. “I am crucified with Christ” covers all that. It is a challenge, especially for any who are looked up to in our gatherings to help the brethren.
A.P.B. Was Peter in some way seeking to maintain a position which Paul had lost long ago?
J.S.E. We have no record of Peter’s ever going to Arabia. Mr. L made some remark this afternoon about Matthew.
J.McK. Do you think that Luke’s gospel corresponds very much to the truth in this epistle that Paul is contending for? I was thinking of the peculiar reference to the law and the neighbour in chapter 10?
J.S.E. Quite so.
F.S. Why did Paul refer afterwards to the question in Galatians 3: 2,
J.S.E. Was not that to raise exercises with them amongst themselves, and questions often do that. They are to supply the answer, and if they were honest they would know full well they could never have the Spirit on the principle of the works of law. They know that but they have to answer it.
P.H.H. Is the reference to the Son of God and Paul’s statement,
J.S.E. Yes. How could he set out the features of the Jerusalem above if he was not on this line?
P.H.H. I am thankful you have said that because, if I may put it quite simply,
J.S.E. Quite so. But it is impossible to have the joy that is connected with the other world if I have not done with this one, and that explains the order of the passage.
P.H.H. I was wondering whether Joshua and Caleb might set it out, as having been into the world of God’s pleasure, so to speak, they felt all the more the sufferings of the remainder of the wilderness pathway – having to face the opposition, and the despising of the land, but it did not prevent their going on. There might be the fellowship of His sufferings, but also the power of His resurrection, was there not?
J.S.E. Quite so. And they lived, did they not – at least Caleb says that he did – he lived the whole wilderness journey in the joy of the land.
P.H.H. I wondered whether that would be a kind of sidelight on what Paul says here?
J.S.E. And so to come along a bit with Caleb, it would be quite easy to link him with the nobles who had staves and helped to hollow out the well. He would be among that category, would he not? So that it links this matter of the Spirit as the power to enjoy what belongs to the other world.
A.W.G.T. The anointed Man living in him would mean that this would be seen, would it? He does not say that ‘Jesus’ lives in him, but “Christ” lives in him.
J.S.E. Quite so.
T.J.G. Do I understand that living in the joy of the land, as has just been said, is what is meant by
J.S.E. Yes; the allusion to the faith of the Son of God, is to where all his aspirations lay; the sphere where the Son of God was supreme, the religious legality of Judaism was an impossibility with him.
P.L. Does living by faith keep it personal, and in the wilderness setting, and thus different from “Quickened with Christ” in relation to that world?
J.S.E. Just so. This word quickened with Christ is a Colossian word, is it not? We are on higher ground there, are we not?
P.L. That is what I mean. So that you are in wilderness life here and therefore it answers to Caleb and Joshua in the wilderness journey.
R.C. Would it be linked at all with the place Christ has secured in the affections of Paul? Is it important to see that he says “I am crucified with Christ”?
J.S.E. Is that not how it works?
R.C. I thought it did.
J.S.E. “I am crucified with Christ” implies that all that Christ has done with here, Paul has done with.
A.P.B. Would you link this verse, “I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God who has loved me, and given himself for me”, with what he says later about faith working through love?
J.S.E. That [i.e., the latter] is, of course, a doctrinal statement.
W.S.S. You find personal experience in Mr. Darby’s writings.
J.S.E. Yes.
W.S.S. We are interested in the several references you have made this evening to joy. Is not that a very important side of things?
J.S.E. It is this element of personal experience with Christ, with the Spirit and with the Father, and over all with God Himself that is really the backbone of the assembly position here.
A.M. Is the experience of this kind of life in a sense the way into the assembly? I was thinking of the similarity between this expression and
J.S.E. Does not the structure of the verses, “I am crucified with Christ, etc”. suggest that he is presenting himself a crucified man as lovable to the Son of God? Is that not how it stands?
A.M. And that raises another challenge as to whether we are lovable in this sense to the Son of God.
J.S.E. We will be if we are crucified.
P.L. And does John, standing by the cross, and the Lord’s word to him and confidence in him, “the disciple standing by, whom he loved” illustrate being loved by the Son of God?
J.S.E. I think so. It comes up several times in the narrative – “the disciple whom Jesus loved”.
A.P.B. Is not that really the antidote to the rigidity and hardness of legality?
J.S.E. I think so. The attraction of John’s gospel is that he does not refer to himself as ‘I’ or ‘me’; it is always “the disciple whom Jesus loved”. I can be that, if I am prepared for the crucifixion.
P.L. You spoke of the rigidity of legality; “taking Titus also with me”, verse 1. Is he takeable, and “with me” is he mutual? Are those features that pertain to life here?
J.S.E. And they belong, do they not, to the realm where the Spirit is free and where the legal element has no place.
P.H.H. It would be a great challenge to the legal system, would it not, as to whether they could produce anything like a Titus?
J.S.E. Quite so.
M.G.W. Is it persons like Paul, with something of his personal experience, that form substantially among the saints this thought of Jerusalem which is above?
J.S.E. Yes, he would take any road, even the road of a mother in labour, so that Christ can be formed in the saints. What do we know about it? It is very nice to read these things in the Scriptures but they are there for a purpose.
P.L. I was thinking of personality, it is said of Zion,
J.S.E. Yes. Read the last verse.
P.L. “Jehovah will count, when he inscribeth the peoples, This man was born there. Selah. As well the singers, as the dancers shall say, All my springs are in thee”.
J.S.E. I thought the “thee” was Zion.
P.L. Yes, but in the spirit that we have here – “the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me”.
J.S.E. Yes.
A.W.G.T. So that a person who has that experience comes back and is effectual amongst the saints, and he carries his own credentials.
J.S.E. That is right.
P.H.H. Is he therefore able in power to say “By love serve one another”, he himself having been the exemplar in the midst of them?
J.S.E. So that he presents himself in Chapter 1 as Christ’s bondman, and that is how he served them, in that kind of love and they were to serve one another in the same way, which is very interesting.
R.C. In this matter of the love of the Son of God, does he show what, in his experience, he has – that which is immeasurably superior to all the legal systems?
J.S.E. Is that not what the Spirit is developing today amongst the brethren? I daresay you have proved it, in fact I am sure you have.
T.J.G. In the many references that Paul makes to Abraham in this epistle, can we look upon it as the bringing forward of a man with personal experience with God, even though he is being used to substantiate the truth?
J.S.E. Do you mean that Abraham is a man of experience with God? Quite so.
T.J.G. My thought was that he brings him forward to substantiate the truth, not as a mere technical matter, but bringing forward a man of personal experience with God. Is not that how the truth is substantiated?
J.S.E. Yes, and how it is carried forward. And that is why we should cling to the principle of succession.
E.C. In connection with problems arising amongst us in many localities, if this spirit were known amongst us in a better way,
J.S.E. Well, I do not think a crucified man would be afraid like that.
T.J.G. May I ask, what you mean by the principle of succession – the closing phrase in your answer to my remark?
J.S.E. You remember the scripture in Acts 3, when Peter quotes the scripture in Deuteronomy about a prophet, he immediately says,
A.W.G.T. So what Rome has in a carnal way, we are to have in a spiritual way.
J.S.E. That is right.
P.H.H. Does Abraham stand for that somewhat – the idea of things being passed on?
J.S.E. Passed on to us, because it says that we are blessed with him.
P.H.H. Yes, but you made some mention of Abraham in connection with this word ‘succession’.
J.S.E. All I meant was that Abraham begat Isaac, Isaac begat Jacob and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.
P.H.H. I was thinking of that very scripture. Quite so.
J.S.E. And then out of those twelve patriarchs, one man comes forward, and that is Joseph, and the Spirit spends a lot of time about him so that we may get help, and that is the way that the succession works.
P.H.H. So that the patriarchal idea means that things are transmitted, and that means that whatever is needed in testimony and truth, and so on, will be maintained in a living way until the end.
J.S.E. And that is why all this matter of the truth being illustrated in persons who are crucified. It is a wonderful and most important matter with us.
W.B.H. Would the faithful men in Timothy correspond?
J.S.E. I think so.
H.J.M. You would have something in mind as to the later scriptures too?
J.S.E. I was thinking of the scandal of the cross as an item connected with the word of the cross.
J.McK. Is it scandal because it robs a man of religious status?
J.S.E. Yes, and that is why it is in Galatians.
H.J.M. Then what is it that causes him to boast so in the cross?
J.S.E. That comes in, does it not, over against the boasting in their flesh.
H.J.M. Then there would also be a very positive presentation in the cross in the One who suffered there that would cause him to boast, would there?
J.S.E. It is not so much the suffering here – we will see that in other sections.
then he goes on again,
H.J.M. There is the reproach side and the removal side, is there also a very positive side?
and in Luke, “In very deed this man was just”
J.S.E. It would in our case, but that is all we have from the centurion, just that acknowledgment at that juncture, and it is the determination of God to have a testimony rendered at the most critical juncture.
A.W.G.T. So that what we have really been having is the great value of the cross.
J.S.E. That is right.
J.G.M. What is involved in verse 17 –
J.S.E. I think the word “no one” means that Paul is bound to no one but the Lord Jesus.
A.G.T. Christ?
J.S.E. Yes.
G.B. I was just going to ask if you would say a word about new creation.
J.S.E. It says, “Neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision”.
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