These two features seem to show themselves in the Philippian letter, and I suppose we all remember how emphatically beloved Mr. Taylor reminded us of the ab­sence of any Jewish prejudice or influence in Philippi,

• so that the finest features of divine workmanship showed themselves, yet they were surrounded by features of the age,

• but were going on with what was positive and normal and attractive in their assembly life and re­lationships.

• We might wonder why the cross should be in this epistle, and that we will arrive at as we proceed.

In the epistle to the Hebrews, we have a ministry which is calculated by the Spirit to free the brethren who were accustomed to a material order of service, and set them up in relation to what is said to be the “true tabernacle”;

• so Christ is presented there as the
  • “minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man”, Hebrews 8: 2.

• In the verses we read we are linked on with a cloud of witnesses, but the object in all is Jesus,
  • “the leader and completer of faith”,

• and we, ourselves, are enjoined to lay aside
  • “every weight”, which, I believe, might par­ticularly apply to the Corinthian side of irregularity,

    “and sin which so easily entangles us” might relate to the religious tendencies that are always with us and have to be judged,

    so that we can “run with endurance the race”.

• The allusion to the joy that was lying before Jesus I have no doubt is an inclusive expression, perhaps involving particularly His dominical glory in connection with the throne of God,
  • but, in addition to that, the joy that He has, as being established as a great Priest over the house of God.

• The service of God in the true taber­nacle is not only secured and assured, but it is in course of operation, and we are to have our part in it.

H.J.W. I have been wondering as we have been con­sidering together how John’s side of things stands in relation to this, in what he has to say as to the lifting up of the Son of man, and the side of

• “I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me”, John 12: 32.

• Does that fit in?

J.S.E. My concern is that we might follow Paul very closely in our readings of yesterday and to-day.

• In Christendom generally there is resistance and objection to Paul and his ministry as to the word of the cross.

L.T.R. Might I ask if the acceptance of the word of the cross leaves us with a love for the appearing, and the acceptance of the scandal of the cross by each of us, with the grace of the Spirit to be ready for this touch in the Philippian epistle?

J.S.E. We have to face the history in the ministry, and the ministry in the history. In Acts 16 Philippi was the bridgehead in Europe.

• It was established there and Paul found something on arrival which was indica­tive at least of instincts which were to be worked with and developed.

• The epistle was written a good few years subsequent to that visit, and the tone of the letter indicates how the dear brethren in that city had followed up the good teaching so that they are credited with the most precious features of normality in assembly life.

• It has been remarked before, that it is the only epistle where overseers and ministers are formally referred to as happily having their place and the brethren moving with them.

• That can be clearly taken as an indication that the saints in Christ Jesus who were in Philippi were characteristically among the saved, according to 1 Corinthians 1. What do you say about that?

L.T.R. It is very positive and very comforting.

J.S.E. In chapter 3: 13 salvation is said to be their own. I do not know that that is said of any other com­pany.

• The obedience of Jesus is to be reflected in the obedience of the saints; as the truth comes to them they take it on and move with it and in it, so that they expand in all that relates, as it says in chapter 1,
  • “to God’s glory and praise”.

T.H. Would what is said in relation to Lydia,

• “Whose heart the Lord opened to attend to the things spoken by Paul”, Acts 16: 14 confirm what you say?

J.S.E. Is it not a rebuke to any who refuse Paul and his ministry?

P.H.H. What is the bearing of the expression in 2 Corinthians 10: 5, “the obedience of the Christ” in connection with your reference to obedience? The connection is

• “For the arms of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful according to God, to the over­throw of strongholds; overthrowing reasonings and every high thing that lifts itself up against the knowledge of God, and leading captive every thought into the obedience of the Christ”.

J.S.E. Is not that the language of one who moves in service among the brethren with only one thing before him, every thing, every thought is brought in in relation to the obedience of Christ, that was exhibited in Paul himself?

P.H.H. Therefore, would you say, he could confidently wait for it to be reflected in the brethren?

J.S.E. Yes; the reflection is in Philippi.

P.H.H. He says here in the next verse, 2 Corinthians 10: 6,

• “And having in readiness to avenge all disobedience when your obedience shall have been fulfilled”.

J.S.E. That is it; showing that the principle of obedience is looked for now in the assembly.

H.W. Would it help to also say a word with regard to Peter’s reference,

• “Elect according to the fore­knowledge of God the Father by sanctification of the Spirit, unto the obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ”, 1 Peter 1: 2.

J.S.E. Yes, that is calling attention to the blood of Jesus Christ.

A.M. Does this idea of obedience link up with the repeated expression “the same” in the section? Four times at least “the same”; first of all as to Paul himself, and then as to each other.

J.S.E. We have been a long time coming round to this, that what was seen in Christ

• – I am not now speaking of His vicarious sufferings – they must always remain in their own holy glory and solitude –

• but all that was set out in Himself on the line of obedience, it is the divine intention that there should be a reflection of that on the earth until He takes up the reins of government when He appears.

• Where can that possibly be if not in the assembly down here?

P.L. Is that presented in a certain typical way in the boards of the tabernacle, which formed part of the assembly in the wilderness, being of the same wood as the ark of the covenant?

J.S.E. And covered with the same metal – gold.

J.McK. So that is the word in verse 12 of Philippiaus 2,

• “Even as ye have always obeyed” –

• an extension of the obedience of the Lord Jesus?

J.S.E. In the character of it. I think that the Spirit would help us to be a little more thoughtful as we follow the teaching through Paul in laying hold of the various ways in which the cross is presented to us.

• The vicarious side is not the emphatic point in this epistle.

• The emphatic point is His obedience, and the extent to which He went in the blessedness of it, so that these two last verses of chapter 1 are very affecting.
  • “Because to you has been given, as regards Christ, not only the believing on him but the suffering for him also, having the same conflict which ye have seen in me, and now hear of in me”.

• That is a wonderful touch. Many have spent years content with believing on Him, but know little of the suffering for Him!

• Everyone who has helped the saints in a forward way, whether in distinct leadership or in localities, has in greater or lesser degree been a means of influence,
  • not merely by his believing because all the brethren believe,

• but by this spirit of suffering for Him, they have been prepared to go through with things as they relate to what is due to Him, what­ever the cost may be.

P.L. So that your allusion to the cross, not simply presented in a vicarious way, but bearing on His obedience and devotion to God and loving His saints through to the end, is emphasised in John where it says,

• “And he went out, bearing his cross”.

J.S.E. Yes – bearing it, which is very touching. Do you not feel that in all these references to the cross which the Spirit makes through Paul, He has what is constructive in His mind?

P.L. Yes.

A.G.B. Is what you are saying as to the setting of this word ‘salvation’ to be understood as being a personal matter, or is it a matter of the saints working out the truth we are now speaking of together?

J.S.E. You were not here yesterday, but in the after­noon we were touching this expression

• “the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but to us who are saved it is God’s power”.

• We thought it was a word for everyone of us to face, as to whether we could put our signature there that we are really among the saved. And that means we accept all that is bound up with this term “the word of the cross”.

• So I thought that this word “your own salvation” was something that the Philippians consciously possessed by enjoyment and it was to be worked out. It is a powerful but de­lightful expression, “your own salvation”.

• It seems that they were a company of saints who really were numbered amongst the saved, according to 1 Corin­thians 1.

J.McK. Would “your own salvation” as realised in a collective sense belong to them all, but “with fear and trembling” would show how every individual was accepting and carrying forward the word of the cross, just as Paul was present himself at Corinth on those lines?

J.S.E. I think so, and that is what makes the epistle so attractive, that the saints are said to be “in Christ Jesus … in Philippi”, then it says “with the over­seers and ministers”. What a wonderful set of influences was at work in that assembly.

J.McK. Is it not instructive the way the apostle maintains what is corporate or collective without for­mally defining it but rather defining it by moral features?

J.S.E. That is the best way to define it, is it not? We might all speak in a formal way of the assembly, but then the challenge all the time is, what features are there?

• Because this word “among whom ye appear” is a word connected with reflection, and it is one thing for us to say abstractly that the assembly is the only vessel of reflection,
  • it is another thing to see in a locality the features in substantial form, because Paul does not say ‘among whom you ought to appear’ but “among whom ye appear”.

• There is more of a substantial nature connected with the saints at Philippi than in any other company to whom Paul writes.

P.L. Hence they are the only company to whom Paul ministered who are viewed as continuing with Paul to the end.

J.S.E. Very good. And the thrice-used expression “longed-for”, and the added expression “My joy and crown”, seem to show what there was in the place reflective of the features of Christ on the line of obedience.

G.B. May I ask what particular significance you attach to the expression in chapter 2,

• “Becoming obedient even unto death, and that the death of the cross”?

• Is there something additional to what we had yesterday in Corinthians and Galatians?

J.S.E. It is something that he could not bring forward in either of those two letters because of the moral irregularity in Corinth and religious rigidity in Galatia, but he can bring it in here because of the state of the brethren as it was.

• If I may revert to what was said yesterday in relation to those who serve amongst the saints, it is the state of the brethren that really de­termines the character of the ministry. Is that right?

P.H.H. Are you referring to what you said about body conditions?

J.S.E. Yes. It was once remarked by a servant of the Lord, that he could judge the state of the saints to whom he ministered by the kind of ministry the Lord gave him.

• It is the thing that really affects oneself, and that is why I think, Mr. B, you have this choice expres­sion here in Philippi, and nowhere else. They were in a state to understand the bearing of that.

P.H.H. Did you say earlier that there was a certain vicarious setting of the cross of Christ and the obedience of Christ, and then in this epistle there is a great dis­tinctiveness and glory attached to it without emphasising the vicarious side?

J.S.E. That was said in relation to the reference to Peter.

P.H.H. Would the references, for instance, in Romans about the obedience of the one suggest the benefit that the saints get through the vicarious service of Christ, and would this be more the distinctive and glorious side of the obedience?

J.S.E. Yes; and this is to be reflected, whereas in Romans it all attaches to Christ because it is the one obedience as over against the one disobedience.

• That is what attracts me in the fact that Adam is only in­ferred in the Philippian letter, whereas in Romans he is formally spoken of.

P.L. So that would you say that the relieving char­acter of the cross may be accepted, but God has in mind the formative power and character of the cross?

J.S.E. The relieving side is invariably connected with the death of Christ – He died for our sins, and it is most remarkable, as we may be helped as approaching the gospels,

• that directly man has done his worst in the circumstances of the cross, Matthew and Mark make no more reference to the cross.

• God steps into the cir­cumstances and the abandonment takes place, but the emphasis then is on His resurrection. I feel the need of help in relation to the teaching of the cross.

P.L. It is used to distinguish the man in the letter who has been extinguished in the cross in the Spirit.

J.S.E. Quite so. It has been adorned where it is a stigma, and that is what makes the allusion to it in this second chapter so powerfully attractive to the heart,

• to think that Christ should come before us as a model in the perfection of His obedience, even to the death of the cross, it is presented to us in that way,
  • “Let this mind be in you”.

• But I thought that preceding it are these ‘ifs’ in chapter 2 –
  • “If then there be any comfort in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and compassions, fulfil my joy that ye may think the same thing”

• – that is really the ideal for every locality, and it is a great thing to get the level of the ideal, not as travailed for, according to Galatians, but as seen in this locality.

• It is most in­teresting that Paul uses the expression “travail” in the letter to the Galatians, showing that the ideal is in his soul; but as he writes to these dear brethren, the ideal is to be in the place amongst the saints.

T.J.G. So that the ‘ifs’ to which you have referred, are not ‘ifs’ of doubt but rather a fulfilled hypothesis, is that right?

J.S.E. That is usually accepted, but to think of this word “fellowship of the Spirit”, what does it lead to, brethren? What does the fellowship of the Spirit lead to if not to the reflection of the features of Christ among the saints as here on the earth. It is a wonderful suggestion.

A.P.B. Would that suggest that the Holy Spirit is ready and active to put this mind to obey into the saints, if we will let Him?

J.S.E. Nothing delights Him more.

R.C. Would you say that the ideal was there, or does he bring forward this ministry in chapter 2 really to produce the ideal?

J.S.E. No, I say the ideal was there, and the ministry is to expand what was there, whereas the ideal was not there in Galatia.

R.C. I was thinking of the use of the word, that he says ‘fulfil my joy’.

J.S.E. Yes, that is, give it its fulness, not accomplish it. Give it its fulness.

R.C. It was there in character.

J.S.E. It was there in the locality. When a woman gives birth to a child the ideal of her labour and travail is there, but she is not content for it to remain in diminu­tive form, she looks ahead to its growth, and develop­ment; but the ideal is there.

J.McK. You have said something about developing what is there in the place instinctively.

J.S.E. Yes, well that is Acts, chapter 16. But we are some years beyond that in the history, and there has been development, and so the language, ‘Longed for, my joy and crown’. That expression is sufficient to show that the ideal was there.

H.W. Would that be a similar thought to the one we get in the first chapter of Philippians, where the apostle says,

• “And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in full knowledge and all intelli­gence”?

J.S.E. Yes.

H.W. The love was there, but he wanted it to increase.

J.S.E. He speaks in chapter 1 of being delivered to them through their supplication and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ. That is a form of expression found only in Philippians. It puts a stamp upon what is in the place; it has no peer.

L.G.B. And also the reference “ye have me in your hearts”.

J.S.E. Yes, quite so. And then another one,

• “No assembly communicated to me … save ye alone”

• – ­their communications were the outcome of spontaneous affections for the man, the servant and in appreciation of his service.

F.W.O. Are these the conditions, then, as found amongst them that he can speak to them of the cross in the way he does?

J.S.E. It raises exercising questions with us. Sup­posing he wrote a letter to Leamington, what could he say to you? Would he have to point out deficient features or could he point out these precious reflective features?

• Wherever we live, this is the standard of assembly life in the place. However much we may have to plead we are not up to it, this is the standard.

J.McK. Would you say a word as to ‘the mind which was in Christ Jesus’? Do I gather that you think of these features as a kind of necessity, a kind of spiritual environment for this mind to be in evidence?

J.S.E. I do not think there is anything testimonially apart from it, the very point at which we are in history and the extraordinary vocabulary that we have at our disposal, can become merely formal with us,

• if we are not affected by the presentation of Christ in relation to obedience here.

• We must keep obedience in its setting as down here on the earth.

T.J.G. Would it be diverting in regard of your re­marks as to obedience to refer to Hebrews 5?

• “Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up both supplica­tions and entreaties to him who was able to save him out of death, with strong crying and tears; (and having been heard because of his piety) though he were Son, he learned obedience from the things which he suffered; and having been perfected, became to all them that obey him, author of eternal salvation”. Hebrews 5: 7-9.

J.S.E. Yes, that is presented apart from the reflection of anything in the saints. It is Christ by Himself, and this we need to keep in mind, but I think there is more than that here.

P.H.H. Does not Paul really proclaim his confidence in the saints here in presenting this glorious line of truth, ‘let this mind be in you’?

J.S.E. Yes, the development of the ideal among the saints.

P.L. That expansion is seen in

• “so that, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”.

• It is the continuity, do you think?

J.S.E. Yes, I am sure it is.

P.L. Sequentially, and in affection, so that, “my beloved”, always obey.

J.S.E. Quite so.

A.G.B. There is a remarkable note bearing on this first verse of chapter 2, finishing up with “if you want me to be fully happy, be at one among yourselves”.

J.S.E. Yes. That is, fulness, as far as we are con­cerned, is the outcome of enlargement.

A.G.B. I was thinking of the importance of oneness in what we are speaking of. Reference has been made to the boards of the tabernacle and their similarity.

J.S.E. Yes, so that they were not piled up in a heap. They were set together in an orderly fashion, and their being set together represented the principle of develop­ment amongst the brethren.

P.H.H. Does Paul continue this line in his expression

• “we are the circumcision”.

Does he link the brethren with him and himself with them, in this line of confidence?

J.S.E. Yes, for the simple reason there is nothing greater. I thought that on the line of obedience from the standpoint of chapter 2,

• Paul is particularly focussing the attention of the brethren on the dominical glory of Christ as the only suited answer from God to the per­fection of His obedience.

• But in chapter 3 we have something beyond what is dominical. So that
  • “For the rest, my brethren …”

• is where the change comes in. That is, there is something more; as the teaching lays hold of us, and the Spirit has more right of way with us, we begin to see that there is something more than what belongs to the dominical position.

• He not only helps us to see it, but also to go in for it, and I wondered if that is why this chapter opens with the words “For the rest, my brethren”, or we might say ‘For the remainder’. That is, there is something more.

P.L. And this” For the rest” comes in much earlier than in any other epistle, suggesting the very fulness that is in mind?

J.S.E. Yes. So that he comes to what Mr. H says,

• “See to dogs, see to evil workman, see to the con­cision”.

• That is there are three forces, are there not? Then he says,
  • “For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God”.

• It should be noticed that the word ‘worship’ is the service of the priesthood, and it shows that whilst there are men and women in the place, as there must be in every place, for the working out of assembly life,
  • he is covering all with the dignity of son­ship in view of the service of God because circumcision is a masculine word,

• and it all helps to show that as we really face practically this principle of the mind which was in Christ Jesus, we are likely to have a much richer and fuller part in what flows to God for Himself.

T.J.G. Are you referring to the circumcision as the product of the cross of Christ?

J.S.E. It says that we are it, and when we were reading in Galatians we had to be reminded that there was in Peter a ministry to the circumcision, and there was in Paul a ministry to the uncircumcision.

• Now they are racial usages of the words, but this is not a racial usage, this is a spiritual usage, because,
  • as dear Mr. Taylor used to emphasise when he touched this epistle, there were no Jewish influences at work, so that we have to see the word circumcision here in its bearing of masculinity,

• and it shows us very plainly that the service of God involves us all arranging ourselves at the level and dignity of sonship in order to serve God.

R.C. Would that enriching of the service of God you speak of stand in any way related to the expression in chapter 2, that

• “Every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord” – then he adds – “to God the Father’s glory”?

J.S.E. That is it. Does not this practically open up for us what is involved in the Lord’s supper?

• How often it has been emphasised to us that as in its actual placing in the epistle to the Corinthians it has specific bearing on the dominion of Jesus?

• There is strictly no allusion to the service of God in chapter 11 of 1 Corin­thians, it is all purely in relation to the dominical place that must be given to Christ,
  • but then, as the Spirit has had His way with us, we have come to see that whilst on the testimonial line it is an end in itself, it is not the end.

• The end to be reached is what is connected with the spiritual side of things.

P.H.H. Does the grouping of certain exalted things in Joshua 5 where circumcision, comes in, help to give us a high line of contemplation and occupation leading on to the great service of God?

J.S.E. I am sure that is how it stands, and it can be safely said that this is the most exalted allusion to the circumcision in all Paul’s ministry.

P.H.H. So that the saints are said to be it.

J.S.E. And Paul does not say ‘And you are it’ – but ‘we are the circumcision’ – he finds the greatest pleasure in linking himself on with us.

• Could we not seek a little more help from the Lord and the Spirit to arrange our­selves accordingly? We shall find that easy as we approach it by way of obedience.

A.P.B. There are a good many localities represented here, do you think that if we all sought to be marked by this ideal that is worked out in the testimonial sphere, there would be these proper assembly conditions in which the Spirit is free?

J.S.E. That is the only way it can come about. That is why I felt yesterday that the Corinthian epistle could alone be a basis upon which to move together con­structively in relation to the cross.

• We have more to touch in relation to it, but this, in the Philippian letter stands out as peculiarly attractive on the line of re­flection.

• There are allusions to the cross which are not connected with reflection, they abide alone in relation to Christ, but this is reflective.

W.S.S. Do we have the testimonial position in chapter 2 because of what the saints are, and then the worship in chapter 3 again because of what the saints are?

J.S.E. When we come to the end of chapter 3 we have the most precious presentation of the actual change found in scripture.

• It is brought in by way of the peculiar attractiveness of the saints to Christ; they are so attractive that He is determined to put the finishing touch to their body. I think that is why it is placed at the end of this chapter.

W.S.S. Does it go on to the sharing of the glory?

J.S.E. Yes.

W.S.S. Wonderful!

J.S.E. So that we have this matter of Paul himself and the way that he goes over his own exercises, not in any chiding way, but in order to help the brethren to see where he was himself in the renunciation of every­thing that was an advantage to him.

• This is where we are tested. We are very slow to renounce anything that is a personal advantage to us. But Paul brings himself forward and he speaks of the things that were gain to him that he counted them loss on account of Christ.

• And then he speaks of having Christ for his gain, and now in the verses read he says that he does not count himself to have got possession, and none of us can do that, but can we say that we are really en route?
  • “One thing” he says, “forgetting the things behind, and stretching out to the things before, I pursue, looking towards the goal, for the prize of the calling on high of God in Christ Jesus”.

• This word “pursue” exhibits energy and determination to go forward. So that he says,
  • “I pursue, looking towards the goal, for the prize of the calling on high of God”.

• It is most exquisite language, and yet he is presenting it to the saints, not as distinguishing himself exactly, but to draw them on the same road. In verse 17 – how many of us can say that –
  • “Be imitators all together of me, brethren”.

• Can we ask the brethren to have a good look at us and see the thing?

W.S.S. May I refer to verse 10 and what he says,

• “To know him and the power of his resurrection; and the fellowship of his sufferings”?

J.S.E. The chapter is full, but it is the word of the cross that is in our minds, and immediately he brings in this matter of imitation and the models,

• he brings in a parenthesis and speaks with peculiar emotion of “many” who walk in an opposite way.

• We must face this; he is not referring to the ordinary world of unbelievers, but to persons who have adopted pro­fession.

W.S.S. Would not this word “imitators” be very important? I am much impressed with what was said yesterday and what Mr. Taylor has said with regard to Paul personally,

• “I myself, Paul”,

• in Corinthians as one in whom the things are set out, a man of like passions with ourselves, and then he says,
  • “Be imitators all together of me, brethren, and fix your eyes on those walking thus as you have us for a model”.

• That should be a great help to us, should it not?

J.S.E. Quite so. In this parenthesis, he says,

• “They are the enemies of the cross of Christ”.

J.G.M. What is the difference between being an imitator and what Paul says,

• “As thus ye have us for a model”?

J.S.E. Strictly speaking it was Paul and Timothy. How many here are like-minded with Paul and who care with genuine feeling how the saints get on? They are the models.

W.S.S. Do you not feel that, in the ways of God, there will always be such persons? That is a great stand­by for us.

J.S.E. Just so.

T.J.G. Is it in your mind to say as to the parenthesis that it is not enemies to Christ but enemies to the cross of Christ?

J.S.E. Enemies of it, which shows that they are not prepared for the word of the cross.

• They are clinging to something, and it seems mainly on the Corinthian line, things of this age, not so much what is religious, though that might come into it, but they are enemies of the cross of Christ.

• Is there anything about myself – that is how I have to apply it – which would warrant this appellation being put on me? Am I going on with anything in this world, fair or otherwise, which is not in keeping with the word of the cross?

L.G.B. Does the fact that he refers to, “Of whom I have told you often”, show the seriousness of such a walk?

J.S.E. Yes, and it brings up that if we are not really following on the lines of chapter 2 we may sooner or later come into the category of this parenthesis.

• It is a very serious matter, especially for those who are, at the moment, favoured to move in and out among the brethren in service.

P.H.H. It seems as if they had constitutionally set themselves that way, because Paul says

• “Whose end is destruction”.

• Do you think the expressions follow­ing,
  • “whose God is the belly, and their glory in their shame, who mind earthly things”,

• would be a hint for us as to keeping clear of this line?

J.S.E. I am sure it is.

P.H.H. An agreed set of persons known throughout the scene completely opposed to the heavenly citizen­ship and commonwealth?

J.S.E. Yes, and the basis of it all is the fact that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, and all these other things are just the unfailing witness of that.

T.J.G. Is Paul pointing out these things in the parenthesis as marking a separate company, as Mr. H has said, that is opposed constitutionally to the cross of Christ?

• Is he brought into that thought by what he says “Be imitators all together” – he wanted the whole company to be imitating him, and he has to point out the danger of those who are walking thus as opposite to him?

J.S.E. Yes, this epistle has no apostolic formula; Paul and Timotheus in their affections and thoughts are alongside the brethren as bondmen – although Paul is actually in Rome in prison.

• This brings the whole matter of reflection to bear upon us as only possible in the spirit of bondmanship, and that is why in chapter 2 this word as to Jesus taking a bondman’s form is in­troduced.

• How many are bondmen? Is Christ the supreme motive and spring of all that we are and do?

W.O.S. I was going to ask in relation to that, would Paul’s expression, “But one thing”, be the charac­teristic attitude to be looked for to be developed with us?

J.S.E. Quite so.

A.P.B. Is that in contrast to what he says in chapter 2,

• “For all seek their own things, not the things of Jesus Christ”?

J.S.E. Yes. I suppose that that is all around him where he is; there were certain things that were adding tribulation to his bonds, but not in Philippi.

• There was an assembly where the ideal of his heart was found and his language is just to make for its further development and enlargement.

• He would now say, The final touch will place us beyond the need of development. We have our commonwealth, our associations of life up there. Can we put our signature here, like the Philippians? Are we included in it?

E.A.E. Does the emphatic ‘our’ in verse 20 corres­pond with the emphatic ‘we’ in verse 31 “For we are the circumcision” verse 3; and “For our commonwealth” verse 20.

J.S.E. Very good, just so.

W.S.S. It becomes a question practically for us day by day, does it not, as to whether it is our common­wealth, whether we are living in the joy of it now?

J.S.E. It is very attractive; we can say that we are at least getting that way; the terseness in some of the features of the ministry has shaken us to our very roots as to our links of one kind and another in this world.

W.S.S. I was thinking of what you spoke of yesterday with regard to joy, that if we are in these things at all, we are in them joyfully.

P.RH. Would you mind saying a word as to the setting of the

• “working of the power which he has even to subdue all things to himself”?

J.S.E. Do you not think that it is just a touch to show that Christ is going to use all the reserves of His power primarily in relation to our body of humiliation

• because He is so attracted to the saints that He is determined to have them in conformity with His body of glory, and He will do that before He wields the sceptre over the universe.

J.McK. Does it bring out the feature of normality that this great change is not said to be on the basis of persons knowing the vicarious work of Christ, but it is in relation to those who have their commonwealth in the heavens.

• I mean the thing is presented, not in relation to abnormal conditions, but in relation to normal conditions in Christianity.

J.S.E. As long as we keep well settled – and I am sure it is in your mind – that nothing of this could come about if we were not the subjects of the vicarious work of Christ.

• That is credited, I thought, right at the start and it enables the Spirit to go forward in these lofty and exquisite forms of expression so that our hearts might really be allured to what is depicted here.

P.L. And what has been sufferingly worked out in the body of humiliation is now to be displayed to the universe – a body of glory in the holy city?

J.S.E. Yes; and does it not remind us and it moves our hearts as we speak, that this very One, our Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, was once here in a body of humiliation?

P.H.H. You mean as to circumstances?

J.S.E. Yes, quite so.

A.G.B. Is there some suggestion in that as to the transformation of the body that there was nothing else needed to be done but that? Had the inward side gone on?

J.S.E. That is why one used the expression that it was because of the attractiveness of the saints as formed in the truth.

A.G.B. I was thinking of the expression

• “As many therefore as are perfect”

• suggesting full-growth, and then the body just transformed in order to bring it into eternal conditions?

J.S.E. Yes. I think it has been remarked that “Our body of humiliation” has the first attention, so that we enter all that we share with Christ in the realm of His dominion, with a body like His own.

• And that is some­thing we ought to understand. We dispense with all traces of humiliation at this point, and it is because our associations of life already have their existence in the heavens.

A.G.B. I was thinking of the liberty that Paul seems to find in referring to this matter as consequent upon what he could take account of to his joy at Philippi.

J.S.E. That is it.

W.O.S. Would you just give us your thought in relation to Hebrews before we close?

J.S.E. These persons listed in chapter 11 are said to be “a great cloud of witnesses”. They all witness to some­thing that is ahead, and we are surrounded by them, but not one of them is to be our object.

• Jesus is to be our Object;
  • “Looking stedfastly on Jesus the leader [or originator] and completer of faith”.

• The joy set before Him embodies the two thoughts set out so touch­ingly in Philippians. That is, the joy of having the full answer to His obedience in the dominical realm, and the joy of having His place as in full charge of the service of God, as the great High Priest over the house.

• We ourselves are to lay aside every weight; the sin which so easily entangles us, is more difficult to deal with than the weights.

• We have had a good deal about the weights, associations of one kind and another; they are all weights and the sooner we get clear of them the better.

• But the sin which so easily entangles us is largely the religious line of things, and there is more unbelief in religious circles than anywhere else, and we must be clear of it. We are to do that ourselves, but we do it as happily engaged with Jesus as the Object.

• That is all I had to say about it, but I thought that it would fit, at the end of chapter 12, the matter of serving God is introduced, so it shows that, involved in the joy lying before Him, is this great matter of setting afoot the service of God from the top.

The structure of the passage in Ephesians keeps the line of demarcation between the Jews and the Gentiles, up to a certain point. The words ‘you’ and ‘us’ and ‘we’ all seem to suggest that.

• The word of the cross in this chapter points to Christ in the glory of His own movements, it speaks of His reconciling both in one body to God by the cross having by it slain the enmity.

• It is a view we need; although it actually applies to Jew and Gentile, to us racial distinction is of no value, because Christ by the cross has dealt in the most thorough way with the greatest racial distinction, and removed it.

In the epistle to the Colossians, we have yet more striking expressions.

• Chapter 1, “In him” – that is in Christ as here – “all the fulness was pleased to dwell, and by him to reconcile all things to itself, having made peace by the blood of his cross …”

• It seems in the structure of the paragraph that the pleasure of the Fulness is in mind; the Fulness has acted for Itself primarily by means of the blood of the cross of Christ, so that It might carry into effect all that It has in mind in re­lation to men.

• This expression, “Present you … before it” is wonderful.

In chapter 2 Paul reverts to the racial matter from the standpoint of the Jew; it seems by the structure of the passage that God is active as nailing things to the cross.

That is just how one felt we might proceed with the passages in pursuance of our enquiry.

T.J.G. Is that what you mean when you say that there is no thought of crucifixion here,

• “To reconcile all things to itself, having made peace by the blood of his cross”,

• and what is nailed to the cross?

J.S.E. Yes, because in these allusions, one to Christ who although Man is a divine Person, and one to the Fulness and one to God,

• we have to keep right out of our minds for the time being the question of man’s guilt, because it can never be said that God crucified Christ. It is men who did that.

• I say that in simplicity, that we might be helped to keep our minds focussed on the way that the Spirit is speaking to us in these passages.

P.L. The cross bearing, not on the testimonial side, but on the inward side in view of the service of God?

J.S.E. That is how I understand it, because the closing down of the section in Ephesians 2 is in the thought of a habitation of God in Spirit,

• and the objec­tive in Colossians 1 is that we might be set before – that is the force of the word ‘present’ I understand – the Fulness for Its own pleasure.

P.H.H. Perhaps some more could be said about the cross bearing upon the inward side, I think that Mr. L said not on the testimonial side.

P.L. What is in mind in these scriptures is the satis­faction of divine love in connection with the purpose of God, the service of God, and, therefore, it bears on the formative power of divine love in the cross, assuring inwardness.

P.H.H. Yes, I think that is a help.

A.G.B. In the early part of Ephesians 2 we have the expression,

• “And you, being dead”,

  and then in verse 5

  “We too being dead”.

• Then quickening is brought in there, and then the raising up and being made to sit down together in the heavenlies.

• Would you say how you regard the distinction between this matter of the cross and death, and, further down, the cross bringing in this matter of reconciliation, and then proceeding with
  • “That he might form the two in himself into one new man”?

J.S.E. The word “might” should be observed.

• When it is a question of quickening it is what God has done,
  • “God … has quickened us”,

• and it is God who has raised us up together and made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus.

• From that angle every­thing is factually fixed, but in what succeeds it seems to me that the Spirit is pleased to show how it has been wrought out and how Christ himself has come into the matter in the glory and perfection of His own place as Man
  • and has taken up Himself, without secondary consideration, this matter of reconciling both Jew and Gentile into one body to God by the cross.

• We have, first of all, what God has done in Christ, and then what Christ has done by way of the cross for God.

P.H.H. Would it be right to say that the references to death, in the early part of the chapter, are not exactly our guilt or past history,

• but more the grip in which we were inextricably held unless God should come in? You said earlier that it is not a question of our guilt.

J.S.E. When I said our guilt, I did not exactly mean guilt as in Romans, all the world becoming guilty before God,

• but rather the guilt that attaches, according to Corinthians, to the princes of this age who crucified the Lord of glory.

• Peter places the guilt on the nation of crucifying their Messiah; the general setting in the early part of the Acts seems to be with this intent. That is what I meant when I said the guilt of crucifixion.

• In these two epistles there is no reference to it, so that it keeps our minds clear of the part that men may have played,

• but rather shows how in those same circum­stances divine Persons have stepped into the arena and taken up things for Themselves to effectuate what They had in mind for Their abiding pleasure and glory in men.

P.L. Would the references to the cross in John’s gospel bringing out peculiarly the dignity and de­liberation of the Lord’s movements, as going forth bearing it, relate particularly to what you are saying?

J.S.E. Yes. There is a great attempt in the world to unite the nations.

• The Spirit is binding the saints together now in a way that, a few years ago, we hardly thought possible.

• In our prayer reference was made to brethren from abroad. We have them here this after­noon, I believe, from Africa, Australasia, and the Americas. It is all the fruit of what has been brought about divinely.

• Men are attempting to amalgamate peoples whose connections are difficult racially. The only power to enjoy the removal of these racial distinctions is in the Spirit,
  • but the power for radically dealing with them seems to have been with Christ by way of the cross.

P.L. In the removal of the man who can only disinte­grate. Is that one feature?

J.S.E. It is remarkable that the thought of removal does not come in here, it is reconciling, which is a very wonderful thing.

• There are so many precious views of the cross that we sometimes are prone to becloud the one by introducing another; it says,
  • “That ye were at that time without Christ, aliens from the common­wealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise”.

• That is just what we were – aliens – as far away from God and any possibility of being for divine pleasure as we could be.

• We see the initiative in the hands of Christ Himself as carrying matters forward; instead of being at a distance, we are now in the greatest nearness because He has done something by the cross.

W.B.H. Would Isaiah have something of that in mind in chapter 53 when

• he says, “Thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see a seed, he shall prolong his days, the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand”?

J.S.E. That looks on to the millennial day; what we have here is something more; we need to pay attention to this word ‘inwardness’.

W.B.H. I was only thinking of what accrues to God as the result of the cross.

J.S.E. Quite so; but there it is the trespass-offering, whereas here it is reconciling both.

F.W.O. Why is it here “By the blood of the Christ” –

• “But now in Christ Jesus ye who once were afar off, are become nigh by the blood of the Christ”?

J.S.E. That is “Ye” – the Gentiles. That is a specific allusion to us, that the vicarious work of Christ, and the termination of His life in that setting was the only possible means by which we could be brought nigh, and then that settles our question as Gentiles.

• But this matter of reconciling both in one body to God by the cross is something that is perhaps more comprehensive, because the allusion to
  • “Ye who once were afar off are become nigh by the blood of the Christ”

• is obviously an allusion to Gentiles,

• but the greater thought is that now there is one body and that Christ has dealt with the racial distinction existing and has annulled all its power in view of something for God, entirely for Himself here upon the earth.

J.McK. Is the new man really a wonderful divine achievement, so that the purposes of the early verses of chapter one might be given full effect to now?

J.S.E. Yes, “one new man”. One out of two, I suppose is the force of it here.

J.McK. I was thinking of the way the whole focus of things is on the present time – “now”. There is a period pre-destined, so to speak, when all these things become not only available but a reality.

J.S.E. Yes. A reality by enjoyment.

P.H.H. Does the very hopelessness of the conditions serve to promote right thoughts in our minds about what Christ has done here?

• The hopelessness in the sense of Jew and Gentile ever managing to get on together, but God has done it in Christ, and it includes the great thought of the Gentiles first in the blood of the Christ, and then, when it comes to enmity and making peace, it says,
  • “By the cross”.

J.S.E. Yes; and Christ has done it, I think it is to emphasise to us the capability of Christ Himself here as Man to take this matter in hand, and perhaps take the initiative in relation to the devil’s most powerful strong­hold, which lies in racial prejudices.

H.W. Would it be appropriate to say a word at this juncture as to the bearing of reconciliation in this connection?

J.S.E. Much has been said about it, reconciliation has been pointed out to us as always to God, so that it is very interesting that

• He “might reconcile both in one body to God”.

• That is, that although Christ in the blessedness and affection of His place here as Man took the initiative, He really did it with God before Him.

• That having been done, the net result is that we are to have God before us, as freed from racial distinction.

H.W. The primary thought, would you say, is what is secured for God’s pleasure, and we come into this as we accept the bearing of reconciliation?

J.S.E. Yes. Reconciliation, wherever it is treated of, will be found to be a means to an end, because re­conciliation, the same as forgiveness and justification, all take place here where the opposite existed.

• But then the end in view is God Himself, and man in the greatest nearness to Him.

A.P.B. Is it a kind of spiritual nearness in contrast to the positional nearness or distance, because even those who were near had to have peace preached to them?

J.S.E. That was “near” racially.

A.P.B. Now it is nearness spiritually –

• “For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father”.

J.S.E. Yes; and it is nearness in the new arrange­ments. That is wonderful.

A.G.B. Is it of import that the expression,

• “Having by it slain the enmity”

• comes in here? It almost seems as if a militant thought comes into the matter dealing with this enmity-the slaying of it.

J.S.E. Quite so; because the thought of initiative in a thing is military, and Christ has taken it; it is a wonder­ful day in our history when we really come into this feature of the truth by enjoyment,