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READING  3
The Worship of God – 3 Ephesians 2: 11-22; 3: 1-21

A.J.G. We remarked yesterday about the “ye” and the “we” that we have in chapter 2, it being a special feature of divine grace and glory that the Gentiles should be brought into the place of highest favour and privilege.

• At the beginning, of course, it was all Jews in the assembly, and then for a time Jews and Gentiles, and now we might say, except for one or two instances to remind us of the position, it is all Gentiles, which is what we come to at the end of the chapter,
  • “in whom ye also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit”.

• The passage in chapter 2 is perhaps of particular import­ance to us as showing how the brethren are to move together in assembly, the Jew and the Gentile set together
  • presenting the greatest possible difficulty in that respect, but entirely overcome by the import, accepted in the soul, of the cross, and the positive appreciation of Christ,

• and while we have not that outstanding difficulty as a rule in the assemblies today, we have the practical difficulties of all sorts of natural differences,
  • and it is essential that we should be thoroughly one in our local companies if there is to be the service of God in any liberty and power.

• Hence I think we shall see that this last half of chapter 2 is of great importance as bringing in the means of practical unity amongst us.

• Then we have in verse 18, in a few words, the setting out of the economy, namely, that through Christ we have both – that is, Jew and Gentile –
  • “access by one Spirit to the Father”,

• so that that brings us into the presence of the operations of the Godhead, that God in His glory and blessedness might be before us.

J.S.E. May I ask if it would be apropos to say now that the present [1951] hymn book is the most powerful evidence to the fact that the brethren walking in the truth are moving on this line?

A.J.G. I think that is so, you mean especially the universal character of it. That has been a feature of recent exercises that the universal character of the assembly should be in practical recognition and expression.

P.L. A catholic hymn book in the service of God.

A.J.G. Quite.

J.S.E. I was thinking of this word, “strangers and foreigners”. We used to speak of our ‘foreign brethren’, we do not use that language now.

A.J.G. No, we certainly do not. We are fellow­ citizens, it says, of the saints.

F.C.H. The Person Himself is our peace; is there something very beautiful in that, not only what has been effected; the Person Himself is our peace?

A.J.G. “He is our peace”, exactly.

H.D.T. May I ask you to say a little more about verse 13,

• “but now in Christ Jesus ye who once were afar off are become nigh by the blood of the Christ”?

• A most positive statement of fact, and lays the basis, does it not, for all that follows.

A.J.G. We are become nigh in Christ Jesus, in a most exalted and dignified position, and the sense of that would impart dignity to us, so that we shrink from bringing in anything that is incompatible with such a position;

• and then it is by the blood of the Christ, that is a most affecting thing, as was said, that the One who is the great subject of Ephesians, you might say, the Christ, the One in whom every­thing is to be headed up, and by whom God effects all His will, that He has shed His blood in order that the man might be ended.

— Do you think that the position referred to by the blood is a fixed position that covers all who believe, that is, by the blood we are brought nigh; but access is by the Spirit.

A.J.G. Exactly, that is in verse 13, as you say, it is a fixed position, that abides, but verse 18 is actual approach, and that is by the Spirit.

J.McK. Does the blood of the Christ lay the basis for the glad tidings of peace?

A.J.G. It does, and I think the point in that, the glad tidings of peace, is that we may rejoice in the sense that all these differences are gone, that is, we can sit down together happily.

J.McK. It is striking that the glad tidings in that way suit themselves to both Jew and Gentile.

A.J.G. Quite so.

H.D.T. I would like to ask a little further in regard of the blood of the Christ as that by which we are made nigh.

• We speak of being sheltered by the blood, of the blood being for God, and we think of the results that flow from the termination of the man that sinned, vicariously, because blood is the witness of death, but I was thinking of this extra­ordinary expression
  • “made nigh”.

• It is in another Man, but it is by the blood of the Christ. I wonder whether the force of it has sufficiently laid hold of the saints generally, because whilst access in this chapter is by the Spirit, and nothing is to weaken that,
  • in Hebrews, we have boldness by the blood of Jesus, so that Jesus has gone in, not with the blood of others, but with His own blood.

• I wonder whether the force of the eternal efficacy of the work of Christ as it abides is sufficiently laid hold of by the generality of saints.

A.J.G. That is what we need to help one another in; and then I suppose there is the testimony of love too, in the blood of the Christ, which would act as an incentive to us to enquire what the import of it is, and to accept it wholeheartedly.

H.D.T. So that in all the waverings and exercises that we have, we come back to what is basic, the ground upon which God is Himself, and the ground upon which He has placed us irrevocably.

A.B. Would our place as “become nigh” involve that there is a place for us in the presence of God, but that in actual access, we draw near to Him by the Spirit?

A.J.G. Yes.

G.A.L. Does it not bring out the glorious efficacy of the work of redemption, not only fitting us, eventually, to have our place before God in the glory, but in view of God dwelling in Spirit in the house now?

A.J.G. Yes, quite so. It seems to me that verse 13 has to be taken as one whole. It is often quoted “become nigh by the blood of the Christ”, but I think we need to take the whole verse

• “in Christ Jesus ye who once were afar off are become nigh by the blood of the Christ”.

A.H-n. Is this something beyond Leviticus 16?

A.J.G. Leviticus 16 is really God’s side of the matter, how God is justified in coming out in mercy.

A.H-n. I was thinking of the blood before the mercy-seat.

A.J.G. Yes, but it seems to me that we are on very exalted ground here, and by “the blood of the Christ” is surely an appeal to us, not only as to the import of His death, the vicarious setting aside of the man, but the love that has done it, and the love of such an One as the Christ, in order to do it.

L.E.S. Would there be a strong link with Acts 20, as to the “blood of his own”?

A.J.G. I think there would; you are referring to God having purchased the assembly with the blood of His own, showing the great value that He attaches to the assembly as the vessel that He can really take pleasure in.

T.J.G. Do I get your thought that the position of nearness is in Christ Jesus, but the blood of the Christ is either the manner or the qualification for it?

A.J.G. It is the means by which it has come to pass, and it is absolute. It is the removal completely of the man that causes the enmity or disturbance.

• All the disturbances in our local meetings would come to an end if this feature of the gospel were whole­heartedly accepted by all the saints.

• If there is a difference between two brothers and they are causing trouble in the meeting, and one day both the brothers die, that would be an end of all the troubles, and we are entitled to die in the light of this scripture.

J.S.E. Would you say why it is that the “far off” and “being nigh” is predicated of one section of the race, but when we come to access it is predi­cated of both sections.

A.J.G. Just because the Jew outwardly and publicly had a position of nearness to God, but that only resulted in enmity with the Gentile, and of course morally they were as far from God as the Gentile, but now the position is that both are made nigh in Christ Jesus by the blood of the Christ.

W.C. Is not there a positive side, not only the removal of the man, but another man brought in for the pleasure of God, that is Head of both the Jew and the Gentile.

A.J.G. Exactly, quite so.

H.D.T. The apprehension of that would mean that no one would be in an inferior position as having part in the assembly. Do you think this gloriously common level as enjoyed by us is greatly to be taken on?

• We are inclined to grade things according to gift and intelligence, but this would help us basically to get down to where we really stand with God and, of course, with one another.

A.J.G. So it says that “he might form the two in himself into one new man, making peace; and might reconcile both in one body to God by the cross, having by it slain the enmity”.

W.S. So is all this great work in order that there might be constituted a love organism?

A.J.G. That is exactly what it is, it is one body, which is a matter of a love organism, as you say.

G.C.S. Did not Paul withstand Peter to the face in Galatians in the light of this, and it did not rob him of his brother, did it?

A.J.G. No, it was love that prompted him to move in that way, love of the truth and love of the saints, and you might say love for Peter, too.

H.D.T. So he was on sure ground. It says “because he was to be blamed”. There was certainty in Paul’s mind, wasn’t there, in doing what he did?

A.J.G. Yes.

W.S.S. It is another emphatic “ye” in verse 22. Would you say a word about that.

A.J.G. It is part of the great elevation that belongs to the saints. Now, as we were saying, the assembly is practically entirely Gentile, and that only enhances the grace of God, that those who have never had any position outwardly of relationship with God are now built together for a habitation of God.

W.S.S. And is it something that might be prac­tically realised in the local gathering at Ephesus? I was thinking of what you were saying about local gatherings yesterday, how these things are to be enjoyed in localities.

A.J.G. I think it is striking that when we come to this matter of the thing being practically worked out in the unity of the brethren it brings in Jesus Christ Himself being the corner stone,

• “in whom” all the building “increases to a holy temple in the Lord”, “in whom ye also are built together”.

• That is, the apostle is stressing the order of man, Jesus Christ, in contrast to the man that is natural to us all.

P.L. And how conspicuous He is as the corner stone, whereas the apostles and prophets, connected with the foundation, are hidden, are they not? Is that a principle of unity, the pre-eminence of Christ and the servants hidden?

A.J.G. Yes.

A.E.M. Is the house always viewed as a completed thought, whereas the temple is growing?

A.J.G. I am sure that helps. The house is a completed thought. God is dwelling there in the Spirit, but the temple is growing, a holy temple.

H.D.T. Whilst the habitation is a completed thought, it says,

• “the building fitted together in­creases to a holy temple”,

• not that the temple itself increases, but the building increases to a holy temple in the Lord. That is the public display, is it not?

A.J.G. Well, I think what we said was that the idea of the temple is something that is going on now, it is increasing, as you say. The “to a holy temple in the Lord” is the final thing.

A.E.M. Is it not in view of the world to come?

A.J.G. Yes, but what is the force of the expression, “in the Lord”?

P.L. Has not the word ‘Lord’ got the great thought in Ephesians of His absolute supremacy?

H.D.T. Does that not look on to the day of display? The “temple in the Lord” is where the Lord’s authority will be universally owned, and there is not an increase in the thing itself, but there is an increase now ‘to it’. Is not that the truth?

A.E.M. If we got the gain of the temple now, it must be in recognition of the supremacy of the Lord.

A.J.G. Quite so, but it does seem to me that we need to pay attention to the way that Jesus Christ Himself is brought in, both in connection with the increasing to a holy temple in the Lord, and also in connection with the habitation of God in the Spirit,

• because these are divine things entrusted to man, and it raises the question what kind of man are divine things to be entrusted to.

W.C. Would you say a word as to the distinction between what is referred to in verse 15, “that he might form the two in himself into one new man”, and then this other reference to building?

• Does verse 15 suggest new material both in Jew and Gentile, that is, there is no reference to Jew or Gentile, but just the material itself, the building material? Does the formation of the one new man lie behind the building material?

A.J.G. Yes. I think so. And then it says, “in whom all the building fitted together”, verse 21,

• involving that we are set together in love, and learn how to fit in together and move together in love.
  • Then verse 22, “in whom ye also are built together”,

• so that the idea of being together in love runs right through the chapter, and it is a necessity if there is to be the service of God pleasing to Him.

H.D.T. So that the truth of the body runs right through, does it not? It underlies these other thoughts of the habitation and the temple, do you not think?

A.J.G. Quite so.

— Did you have something more in mind in regard to verse 18?

A.J.G. It is a most important matter, because it is what is characteristic of Christianity, that together we have access through Christ by the Spirit to the Father, so that

• the Father is, in this point of view, the objective in the access, known in the grace and relationship of the name of Father, but then it is through Christ and by the Spirit,

• so that we are in the presence of the operations, in unity in love, of the Father and the Son and the Spirit.

• The more we take account of it, the more we are impressed with the full presentation of love in God, the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

• The Father as absolutely supreme, in the blessedness of love and relationship, and the Son and the Spirit in the glory of self-subordinating service in order that that might be brought to pass, and we ourselves sustained in it, and the response to God suitable to Himself maintained.

• We are really in the full presentation of love – God is love – and you do not really get the full presentation of love in the Father, you need the Father and the Son and the Spirit for the full presentation of love.

C.M.M. Do you distinguish between access in this chapter and in chapter 3: 12?

A.J.G. I think this access in chapter 2: 18 is actual approach in the service, whereas perhaps “boldness and access” in chapter 3: 12 is more what generally marks our position.

— Should we see the great import of this section, where we, so to speak, arrive at the Father, verse 18, that it has been such an important matter in the service, the Lord calling attention to His Father in John’s gospel in order to bring Him before us. I thought therefore that the point reached in verse 18 was perhaps in your mind in regard of the service that you spoke about.

A.J.G. That is so, so that the great thing, you might say, is access to the Father, and yet there is something beyond. The Lord says in John 20,

• “My Father, and your Father, my God and your God”,

• and as access to the Father is enjoyed, and the blessedness of the Father’s name is known and responded to, you are conscious that you are in the presence of the whole Godhead.

— Yes.

L.E.S. So we have the household of God, and then the habitation of God.

A.J.G. The household of God would be more a family thought than merely the house of God, would it not? Had you something else in mind?

L.E.S. Only to confirm what you have said as to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and then leading us on to the full thought of God, whether in the household of God, or the habitation of God.

A.J.G. Quite. I think it is important in the service that the Father should have the full place that the Lord intends He should have, because you cannot read the gospel of John without seeing

• how much the Father is in the heart of Christ, to make known to His own, and the name of Father and the relationship that goes with it are intended to give us the utmost liberty and restfulness in the presence of God.

• Then when that is known and fully enjoyed, what you are faced with is that the whole Godhead has been in activity to bring that position to pass, and what explains that activity is “God is love”, and you need the Father and the Son and the Spirit for the full presentation of love.

J.McK. So that is this word as to access somewhat analagous with John 14,

• “ye know where I go, and ye know the way”?

A.J.G. Well, yes, and then the Lord leads on to the Comforter, does He not?

J.McK. Yes, I thought that, so that our access to the Father is an access to be used, to be realised, is it not?

A.J.G. Surely.

T.J.G. So that this verse 18 is not showing the full scope of the service of God, but emphasising the Father over against the limited thought that the Jews once had?

A.J.G. And bringing in access to the Father as the characteristic of Christianity. The Lord, in John’s gospel is constantly speaking of the Father, and directing attention to the Father; but then at the end, He says,

• “I ascend to my Father, and your Father”

• bringing us in in association with Himself before the Father
  • and then He adds, “and [to] my God, and your God”.

— I think you remarked that the three Persons are there in verse 18. Is that not important to keep before us, that the three Persons are there, but the Person reached is the Father?

A.J.G. Quite so. It seems to me that in reading these scriptures in Ephesians, we are constantly brought to that, that the Father is there, and Christ is there, and the Spirit is there, in wonderful unity,

• but the Father is the supreme Object, save that as He is fully reached and appreciated, you are brought into the presence of God, God in His blessedness.

— Quite so.

H.D.T. I was going to ask as to these prepositions, ‘through him’, ‘by one Spirit’, ‘to the Father’. Why the Spirit of God should be so explicit in such an important section. This is to have its own weight and authority in all our hearts, is it not?

A.J.G. It is. Well, ‘through him’ is to emphasise our dependence on the Mediator, that we can never dispense with the Mediator.

H.D.T. And we never do.

A.J.G. We never do, we never wish to; I mean it is just to emphasise that, that it is through Him.

H.D.T. And that is going to abide eternally?

A.J.G. Quite so, but ‘by one Spirit’ is the power.

— Is it not well, therefore, to see that in “for through him” Christ is not viewed as in us there. It is what He is, so to speak, objectively, and “by one Spirit” alludes to what is going on subjec­tively, is that right?

A.J.G. I think so, so that “through him” corresponds with the Lord saying in John, “no one cometh unto the Father but by me”.

E.J.H. So is “through him” instrumentality, and “the Spirit” power for movement to that great end?

A.J.G. I would prefer to have the thought of the mediator in “through him”.

H.D.T. And the Spirit operating in a mediatorial way, too.

A.J.G. Yes, His service is mediatorial, but it is the Lord only who is the Mediator.

— I was going to ask about the Mediator, Christ is the Mediator, He is on God’s side, is He not, and He is on our side, is that not the truth?

A.J.G. Yes, exactly, that is how I understand it, that is the great importance of the Mediator, that He can take up both sides, speaking reverently.

— I meant to enquire if being on God’s side does not help us in regard to any difficulty as to the three Persons being before us.

A.J.G. I think that helps, I am sure it does; if He were not God, He could not be mediator on God’s side; if He were not man He could not be mediator on our side.

— Quite.

H.D.T. So that when it speaks of “through him”, it of course is speaking of His manhood specially, is it not?

A.J.G. Oh, indeed it is, but we never lose sight of His Person.

H.D.T. And when the Lord speaks in John’s gospel, He speaks in manhood, does He not?

A.J.G. Surely.

— What is the point in that, Mr. T.?

H.D.T. Well, I wondered, because it is a burning question with us all, as to whether we ever get beyond association with Christ.

• Whilst He has a knowledge that far exceeds ours, we share His own relationship, we have His own Spirit, His Father is ours, His God is ours.

• I wondered whether we are not to have our attention focussed on the One in whom, not only has God reached us, but the One in whom we reach God?

— Is it not right that the mediator is the man? There is no question there; as Man He is mediator on God’s behalf, and He is on our side as well.

S.McC.And is it not important that we cannot limit a divine Person, such as we are speaking of, the Lord Jesus, to a position He comes into? In John 17 He is viewed as Man, returning to His place He had along with the Father, before the world was.

A.J.G. Quite so. I think it is important to realise that, that we never know Christ save in man­hood, but at the same time you never lose the sense that He is who He is;and that only impresses one,

• because you are in the presence of one of the Godhead, who in grace has stooped into manhood condition, to retain it for ever,

• never surrendering what He is personally, but to retain that position for ever, in order that the thoughts of divine love might be perfected.

P.L. And we shall never know Him as of the Godhead, save in manhood?

A.J.G. Quite so, no one knows the Son save the Father.

G.A.L. Is the truth of the Mediator in that way touched in Romans 1,

• “come of David’s seed accord­ing to flesh”, that is His manhood,

  but then on the other side, “marked out Son of God in power … by resurrection of [the] dead”, showing Deity?

A.J.G. Quite so, and I think it is important to bear in mind that while we never know Christ save as in manhood, and never know His essential deity,

• “no one knows the Son but the Father”,

• yet you never lose the sense of who He is in His Person; nor the Spirit either, and therefore, as appreciating the mediatorship of Christ, and the service of the Spirit,

• you are in the consciousness that it is the whole Godhead who is acting in that way in order to embrace men in the thoughts of divine love, and secure an answer from them worthy of God.

S.McC. And as Mr. Taylor said more than once, in alluding to John 17 where the Father is said to be the only true God,

• ‘We must keep in mind what is said elsewhere, that the Lord Jesus, in a mediatorial position, is said to be the true God and eternal life’.

• That is in the mediatorial position. He is said to be the true God and eternal life.

A.J.G. Quite so.

G.W.E. Is that supported by the fact that Thomas is not silenced or rebuked when he addresses the Lord as “my God”.

A.J.G. Well, quite so.

H.D.T. And moreover, when Jesus comes to rescue the stricken Jews in a coming day, they will say, ‘This is our God, we have waited for him’.

A.E.M. I should like to ask, in this stage, in verse 18, it is the Father that we address?

A.J.G. Surely, but then you have in mind, have you, that the Lord leads to the final thought of God, and His being addressed as God, but that there is no reason why,

• as having the Father and the Son and the Spirit objectively before us according to the name in Matthew 28, and according to John 14, and this scripture,

• each one should not be presented with the worship that is due to Him. Is that what is in your mind?

A.E.M. Yes. Can you tell me why it is that some of the brethren are diffident about addressing God under the name Father, Son and Spirit – One God, one Name?

A.J.G. I think perhaps the difficulty lies in not sufficiently allowing the objective presentation of the Godhead under that name to sink into our souls.

• It is not only in Matthew 28, the name, and one Name as you say, of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit – the Spirit particularly identifying each Person of the Godhead –

• but then John 14 and this scripture, and many other scriptures, are all filled with the idea of presenting the Godhead to us objectively in the supremacy of the Father, and the self-subordination in love of the Son and the Spirit.

C.M.M. Would you say a little more about John 14?

A.J.G. The Lord begins by speaking of His Father, “in my Father’s house”, He says, and He is full of the thought that He is going to the Father;

• He says, “if ye loved me ye would rejoice that I go to the Father, for [my] Father is greater than I”.

• But then He also says, “believe also on me”. And two or three times in the chapter, He says “believe me”. He is insistent that they should believe Him, and He says,
  • “believe me that I [am] in the Father and the Father in me”.

• He is insisting on His personal glory in the Deity, although He is there before them as Man.

• And then He commends the Comforter to us objectively, and what He would be to us, and says that in the day when He is here, we should know that He is in His Father, and we in Him, and He in us.

• All that would be known by us as the result of the Spirit’s presence; so that the chapter is full of the presentation of the Father and the Son and the Spirit to our hearts.

S.McC. Do you not think that what — has referred to is helpful and illuminating in regard to this matter, and would help the brethren generally, that the Mediator is on God’s side as well as man’s and only one who is God could be the Mediator?

A.J.G. Quite so.

J.H. Does that verse in Colossians 2 help to understand the greatness of what is to be apprehended in Christ in His manhood now,

• “for in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily; and ye are complete in him”, chapter 2: 9.

G.C.S. Does Mr. Darby’s note help us, ‘The ful­ness or completeness of the Godhead is in Christ, as towards us; and we, as towards God, are complete inHim’?

A.J.G. I think it does.

S.McC. The thought in “bodily” is important in that way, that is, God has come near to us tangibly, so that He can be apprehended in so far as He can be apprehended by us; the fulness of the Godhead dwelling bodily in Christ in Colossians 2 has in view our apprehension of it, has it not?

A.J.G. I think so, and our response to it, too.

S.McC. Just so.

— Does not Colossians 1 in the same setting refer to the “it”, that is the fulness, and we are presented to it, that is, it is the fulness.

F.C.H. There is a remarkable verse, John 8: 28, bearing on the Lord’s Person,

• “Jesus therefore said to them, When ye shall have lifted up the Son of Man, then ye shall know that I am [he], and that I do nothing of myself, but as the Father has taught me, I speak these things”.

• I suppose the first part refers to the glory of His Person as God, and a remarkable thing is that He immediately follows by saying “I do nothing of myself, but as the Father has taught me I speak these things”.

A.J.G. Well, that is a characteristic feature of John’s presentation of Christ, that the glory of His Person is fully asserted, both by John the evangelist and by the Lord Himself, and yet the wondrousness of the position He has taken up in manhood is equally maintained.

H.D.T. And we might recall an oft repeated remark that He never ceased to be what He was because of what He became. I do not think there is any difficulty in the minds of any, as to the deity of Christ. If we think of the Godhead glory that belongs to Him we have to think of it in the fullest possible sense; but we have to distinguish between Person and position.

A.J.G. Quite, and the mediatorial economy that has been instituted, and in which the Son and the Spirit are known by us – and they are only known in that position – is what God in His love has devised, so that in all the actings of it we are in the presence of God, and the actings of divine love.

A.McG. I would like to ask a question in view of hymn 199, ‘To Thee as God we bow’. Is it not so that we worship Him as God? Is He not in that sense God to us? Is there a difficulty in anyone’s mind?

A.J.G. I hope not. The only reason why we worship the Lord Jesus is because we do recognise that He is God.

W.S.S. Does the last section of chapter 3 show how nearness to the Father leads up to the full thought of God? You referred earlier in the reading to nearness to the Father, based on verse 18 of chapter 2; I wondered whether we see in the last section of chapter 3 where nearness to the Father would lead, that is to the full thought of God?

A.J.G. Quite so, because we have the Father, of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named, and then we have His Spirit, the Father’s Spirit, strengthening us, and the Christ dwelling in our hearts by faith, so that it leads up to the thought of the fulness of God.

A.P.C.L. In order to help us in the clarification which we are getting, you do not understand that as we reach the Father according to verse 18, in the Father personally we have the fulness of what belongs to God?

A.J.G. It is a question of the way God is pre­sented in Christianity, and in the Father and the Son and the Spirit we have the full presentation of God.

• It seems to me that in the Father we have the supremacy that rightly belongs to God, and it is the supremacy of love, but then, in the Son and the Spirit we see how love can unselfishly serve, and that has a most subduing effect upon us, and is intended to;
  • it is the full presentation of love, love in its supremacy, because God is love, and it rightly belongs to God to be supreme,

• and yet, a subduing influence in love that serves in the Son and the Spirit, so as to help to keep us in our proper position, and so the Son will be placed in subjection to all eternity, that God may be all in all.

G.R.C. Is it your thought that what we see thus, in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, reflects back on what God is Himself, in His nature and attributes, so that we have some knowledge of what God is Himself in His Being in that sense – in His nature, and His attributes?

A.J.G. In His nature, and I think we see in Scripture that you constantly get three as the full presentation of an idea, and I believe that springs from the fact that there are three Persons in the Godhead, that the full presentation of God is in the Father and the Son and the Spirit.

H.D.T. You would not suggest, of course, that the Father is ever presented in the scripture as anything less than God, the fulness of Godhead?

A.J.G. Oh no, not in His Person, but in the economy there are certain limitations, so to speak, attaching to the thought of the Father; for instance, we get in Romans 14 that we must all appear before the judgment-seat of God, but then the Father judges no one; yet the idea of judging is a certain feature that must be attached to the thought of God; it is right that He should judge.

H.D.T. Well, God is not Father to everyone. He is God to everyone. He is only Father to those who stand in relationship with Him. Is that not in one sense the difference, that God is God to even the infernal beings?

A.J.G. Yes, but we Christians must all appear before the judgment-seat of God.

H.D.T. Yes, quite so.

A.J.G. And one of the things we have come to in Christianity is God, the Judge of all, and yet the Father judges no one.

W.C. Yet that is, we might say, brought in in the Son is it not? What is not set forth in the Father is committed to the Son.

A.J.G. Exactly, that all may honour the Son even as they honour the Father, and then judgment being committed to the Son, and no thought of judgment connecting itself with the Father’s name, has in mind that

• the final result in eternity is that the blessedness of the Father’s name should pervade the whole scene, and God shall be all in all, that is, God known in the full expression of Godhead in the Father and the Son and the Spirit.

L.E.S. So it says in John’s epistle, “God is love, and he that abides in love abides in God, and God in him”.

A.J.G. There could be nothing greater for us, in a sense, than to abide in God. As held in the love of Christ, and empowered and energised in the Spirit, and enjoying our place in the Father’s love, we feel that we are embraced in God.

J.S.E. Could I ask a question about this chapter 2, and the way chapter 3 is couched? Is the Spirit presenting plain, settled facts for our instruction in chapter 2,

• “through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father”;

• and, in the parenthesis in chapter 3, is Paul himself in his prayer a living example of the liberty he has in that setting, and so he prays that we might be conducted further. He uses a term in his prayer,
  • “that ye may be filled [even] to all the fulness of God”.

• Is he making use in the fullest way of what is available to us all in this verse in chapter 2?

A.J.G. I think so; you mean access to the Father, and so he prays to the Father. You had that in mind?

J.S.E. Yes, and he makes full use of the mediator­ship of Christ, and the power of the Spirit in the prayer, in which he shows plainly that there is some­thing beyond, which shows that the end to be reached is intended for us to reach?

A.J.G. Quite so; you mean to be filled even to all the fulness of God?

— Could I ask, if it would be right to say that, when speaking to the Father as God, and thinking of Him in that way, we do not have the other two Persons in our minds as God at that moment.

A.J.G. No, I think not.

— If we spoke to the Lord, as God, we would not be thinking of the other two Persons at that moment, or if we spoke to the Spirit as God, but the full thought is there all the time, although what is before you is the one Person, and the fulness of Deity would be in the one Person.

A.J.G. Quite so.

Wm.H. Would that be borne out by 1 Corin­thians 8,

• “to us [there is] one God, the Father”?

A.J.G. Well, that is the public position, is it not, to us [there is] one God, the Father; that is the way God is known in Christianity. It is in contrast to gods many and lords many.

H.D.T. May I refer back to what has just been said. You spoke, Mr. —, in regard of the fulness of Godhead in each Person. Would you repeat what you said just now?

— What I was asking was would it be right to say that when we are speaking to one divine Person as God, that we would not be thinking of the other two in that setting, but They would be there, and the one Person that we are speaking to, the Deity is there.

A.J.G. Well, that is the reason for our worship­ping, is it not? I mean, if you worship the Father you are worshipping because you know He is God, and if you worship the Lord, you worship because you know He is God.

H.F.R. Is that involved in the last verse of chapter 2, “habitation of God in [the] Spirit”, and then in Hebrews 1, it is God who has spoken in Son, there is nothing less than the full thought of God, is there, in the three Persons?

A.J.G. So that it is a very important matter for us to remember that we are a habitation of God, that God is dwelling in us all the time in the Spirit. The mere fact that it says “in the Spirit” does not in any way lessen the greatness and importance of the fact that it is God that is dwelling here in the saints.

— Do you think that verses 19-22, therefore, at the end of chapter 2, would have in mind that the habitation of God is the present position, now, of the saints, involving where we learn things?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so, and having in view the final result in the holy temple in the Lord for the day to come?

— And it is especially, I thought, that the section had in mind the present testimony, that is the position of God now, “in whom ye also are built together for a .habitation of God in [the] Spirit”. That is the present position.

A.J.G. It is, and it really is peculiar grace, too, is it not, that Gentiles are in this position, that ye are built together for a habitation of God in [the] Spirit, and the unity, the built together, is an import­ant feature in the testimony, is it not?

— Yes.

A.Hn. And in that expression are you thinking that the Trinity is there, God in the Spirit?

A.J.G. It says “a habitation of God in [the] Spirit, it is God. I do not see that we want to raise these analytical questions. It is a habitation of God in [the] Spirit. God is dwelling in us in the Spirit.

A.Hn. I was thinking of that remarkable expres­sion that Mr. Darby has used, ‘where all are God, all one God, God all Three’. Do we not think that way, when we speak of God?

A.J.G. I think we think in the terms of Scripture, that is the thing. Mr. Darby is there expressing his inability to fathom the mystery of the Godhead, and that, of course, is where we all are, and necessarily so as creatures.

— God all three, is most important in what has been said – God all three, that is what J.N.D. said.

A.J.G. Quite so.

P.L. There is something more than addressing the Father, there is going on to God, is there not?

S.McC. “My God and your God” would involve the full thought, the final thought. “My Father and your Father” is progressive, it is not the terminus in the service of God.

J.T.S. In John 13 it says, “Jesus knowing that his hour had come that he should depart out of this world to the Father”, verse 1, and then we read,

• “knowing that the Father had given him all things into his hands, and that he came out from God and was going to God”, verse 3.

• I think beloved Mr. Taylor spoke of the Lord drawing us into the current of His mind and where He was going, so that along that line of the Father, would we not reach God? He is going to God.

A.J.G. Exactly, I think that is an important passage, that the time had come for Him to depart out of this world to the Father.

• He was going to take His place as Man in the Father’s presence, and would lead us there into the knowledge of the Father in association with Himself;
  • but then He had come from God, and was going to God, He had come to bring God fully out, and to lead back an answer to the God that He had brought thus fully out; and so that the final result is “my God and your God”.

• That must be, it seems to me, commensurate with the name that we have in Matthew 28.

H.D.T. Do I understand, in what you have just said, that we get beyond the thought of relationship?

A.J.G. Relationship sustains us in the presence of God.

H.D.T. Why is it then, that the title ‘God’ is used so much in Galatians when sonship is being stressed?

A.J.G. Well, because we are sons, that is our position.

G.R.C. Are not sons those who can appreciate God in His greatness better than any others; and would you say that in the worship of God as God, it includes not only the worship to the Father, the Son and the Spirit, severally, but also worship to God in the greatness and unity of His Being?

A.J.G. I think so. I think if we worship the Father and the Son and the Spirit severally, we are just on the road, but what is finally reached is God in His blessedness in the full thought of it.

S.McC. And is not the great thought of sonship in this letter that we are considering to give power in our souls in approaching God as God – the relation­ship has been designed in view of family nearness and family enjoyments that we might approach God as God?

A.J.G. I think so.

G.R.C. So that the names the Father and the Son are not names that convey, exactly, the greatness of God as God, they are names which convey nearness and intimacy, but is it not all in view of our being able to worship God as God in all His greatness?

A.J.G. Yes, it seems to be so.

RW. Can you worship God without the knowledge of the truth of the economy?

A.J.G. Of course, before Christianity God was worshipped in some sense. Any presentation of God, I suppose, is calculated to call forth worship, but now that God is fully declared and His love is fully known, it is in the economy that we apprehend Him.

G.A.L. And is not the name Father the distinctive glory of our economy, just as Jehovah was to Israel, and the Almighty to Abraham?

A.J.G. Yes, the name of Father; and every family is named of the Father, every family is impressed with some apprehension of the Father.

W.H.D. Does Exodus 3 help, God told Moses to say to the children of Israel, “I AM hath sent me unto you”. And then it goes on,

• “And God said moreover to Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Jehovah the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob hath sent me unto you. This is my name for ever”, verse 14-15.

A.J.G. You mean that in the light of Christianity we can perhaps see more in a Scripture like that, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob than was apprehensible at the time.

W.H.D. That is just what I do mean. I was wondering whether there is not some allusion to the three divine Persons, and yet it speaks of Him as God.

A.J.G. Well, that is simply, I take it, a certain application to Scripture that we can give as in the light of Christianity.

W.S.S. And the last verse of our chapter, “to him be glory” – is that not a point to be reached?

A.J.G. Yes, to Him, that is to God, be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus.

G.R.C. You were saying just now that God is to be known in the economy; I quite see that the intimate and blessed full knowledge of God we have involves the economy,

• but knowing Him thus, does it not enable us to take up other glories that attach to Him as God, and to appreciate them, and worship Him in relation to them in a way no other family can?

A.J.G. I think so. I think the economy is designed to bring us into the greatest nearness that is possible for the creature to be in, and as in the enjoyment of that nearness, you have in your soul that there is the God lying behind all that, who has designed it, and many glories attach to Him.

J.McK. So that some of the doxologies that you referred to yesterday morning could only be given expression to, by one in the gain of the economy?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so.

C.M.M. Would verse 18 of chapter 2 go with “my Father and your Father”, and the close of chapter 3 with “my God and your God”?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so.

J.G. In many of the minds of the brethren, there seem to be divergent thoughts relative to this matter that you are now speaking about, and I wondered whether we could have briefly what those divergent thoughts are, so that we may arrive at the truth?

A.J.G. Well, if the brothers express themselves we shall get at them, we are here to help one another.

Ques. Would you say that in the presence of God we may address God as God, having in mind the three Persons, or we may address Him as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, according as we have liberty?

A.J.G. It is just a question, as I understand it, of liberty in the Spirit. That is what is so important, that the truth is presented to us objectively, but the form our response to it takes is left in the hands of the Spirit,

• so that in John 20 you find the Lord coming into the midst, and showing them His hands and His side, and then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord, then there is not a word said as to the course the service is to take. It is left entirely in the hands of the Spirit.

G.R.C. As regards John 20, beloved Mr. Taylor, in the reading on Divine Names in New York, said in connection with “my God and your God” that the Man who was speaking, because He is God, knew God in the absolute, that in His lips “my God” was the absolute, but He brings us alongside Him to go as far as a creature can.

A.P.C.L. In chapter 1: 3, the apostle says “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”, referring there to the Father.

• Now in some minds there is a confusion between that, and “my God and your God” in John 20, because in that verse 3 the Father is said to be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Will you help us by distin­guishing those two matters?

A.J.G. Well, I think the apostle, in saying “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” is conveying that God stands in relation to Christ as God in relation to Man, and as Father in relation to the Son, so that both thoughts are in mind, but He is there addressing the Father, as the One who is supreme in the economy.

• As in the enjoyment of our position, we are led to contemplate the God who has devised the economy, and the form it has taken, and the difference of love, so to speak [if one may put it that way] in the supremacy of love in the Father and the service of love in the Son and the Spirit.

S.McC. It has been pointed out that generally in the epistles, it is God and Father. ‘Father’ comes after ‘God’, but when we come to John 20, it is not that. The Father comes before God, it being pro­gressive in John 20, does not that help?

A.J.G. I think it does.

H.D.T. Because the Father was primarily in the Lord’s mind, was He not? He said to Mary,

• “Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father”.

• It is striking how the Lord spoke of the Father consistently throughout John.

A.J.G. Yes, but then He needs to be ascended to the Father in order to bring in the position, and to bring us into it. It is what we are privileged to reach as in the position.

H.D.T. And so that the relationship in which we stand continues?

A.J.G. Surely.

G.R.C. Is not what Mr. McCallum has just said about progression, borne out in the teaching of the epistles? For instance here,

• chapter 2: 18, we have the Father, but what follows is God,

  and in chapter 3 the apostle bows his knees to the Father, but the end of it is the fulness of God,

  in Colossians 1, the Father has translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, but in order that we might apprehend the One who is the image of the invisible God.

• I wondered whether the teaching of the epistles is on the line of John 20.

A.J.G. I think it is, and it seems to me to be very important for us to allow the truth as it is presented objectively to sink into our souls, but to remember that in the answer to it on our part, we are entirely dependent on the Spirit, and we must afford Him the liberty that He claims for Himself.

P.L. I think our brother Mr. —’s remark yesterday in the address might well be considered by us all, that in the ‘eating’ of John 6, there is the ‘seeing’ that results, the eating giving the constitu­tion that could in a priestly way discern in this great matter.

A.J.G. Quite so.

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READING  4
The Worship of God – 4 Ephesians 3

A.J.G. The fact that the whole of the chapter, except the first verse, is a parenthesis and ends with such an outstanding doxology, shows how much the great riches of divine thoughts were in the mind of the apostle,

• because it appears that he intended at this point to embark on his practical exhortations which we find taken up in chapter 4, but that the Spirit diverted him as he was writing, because of the fulness of what was there in his heart,

• and gives this great opening up of the mystery, and yet it is not a very great opening up of it, in one sense, but the apostle tells us that he has recourse to prayer, bowing his knees to the Father, as though he would encourage us to do the same as a surer way of arriving at some apprehension of the truth in the Spirit, than by any setting out of the truth that he might be able to give,
  • but it is clear that it has a very great place in his heart so that it results in this outburst of praise, and especially the fact that it is those of the nations who are brought into such a favoured position; a fact, which perhaps, we do not sufficiently take account of, tending to take for granted what has come to us in the glad tidings,

• but Paul makes much of it, that it is the nations who had never had before any place of nearness to God who are brought into the greatest position of divine favour and privilege. It seems that all God’s ways have had in mind to reserve this point where He could come out in the riches of grace, His ways in setting apart Israel as a nation to Himself only having in view eventually to bring in the nations, an expression of superlative grace.

C.H. I was going to ask again whether, in the principle of it, since the recovery of the saints to the truth, there has not been a stream of authoritative ministry which has given general guidance to the saints.

A.J.G. There has been unquestionably, and there has been leadership in that, which has been recognised as it arose, but the fact remains that it lies in the Spirit, that is where the real authority is,

• but it is in the power of spiritual ministry that leadership is recognised, and it may be, as was remarked last night, we have now got to recognise that we have to go on together in what the Spirit affords in our localities,

• and at the same time, occasions such as this afford opportunity for brethren from a wider area to be together in the exchange of their thoughts as the Lord may help us.

— So that we might say the same thing. I think this meeting should be to that end, that ministering brethren go round and say the same thing.

A.J.G. Quite so.

T.J.G. A brother made a remark this morning as to being united in affection, not so much united in light; is not the thought of being united in affection something to transpire with the unification in light?

A.J.G. Yes, hut there is the unity of the faith. We are to be marked by affection one for another, and we are, there is the unity of the Spirit, but then we are to be marked by love of the truth and we are to be unified in the faith, too, there is the unity of the faith.

S.McC.Is it not important that the love of the truth is morally greater than the love of the brethren.

A.J.G. I think it is.

L.E.S. The test of love is really the maintenance of the truth, is it not?

A.J.G. It is. That is what the second epistle of John says.

C.H. And then in chapter 4, “holding the truth in love”; it is not merely that you love the truth, but you hold the truth in love, that would help us, do you think, in our regard for the brethren to bring them into these matters if it is at all possible.

A.J.G. Yes.

Ques. It is remarkable that a great man like Paul could say, “to me, less than the least of all saints”. He uses the expression “in lowliness of mind”, Philippians 2: 3. Do you think it would help us if we take up the truth, and hold it, in all lowliness of mind?

A.J.G. I am sure that is important. Indeed you wonder, as Mr. Taylor himself has said, how Paul could say it, “to me, less than the least of all saints”, and yet he said it, and said it in truth by the Spirit.

— The Lord’s own reference to Himself prophetically, “I am a worm and no man”, Psalms 22: 6; no one else would say that, but Him.

A.J.G. No.

W.H.D. Would you say something about the inner man, “Strengthened with power by his Spirit in the inner man”?

A.J.G. Well, it is what we are inwardly. In Romans 7 we get the beginning of the idea – it says,

• “I delight in the law of God according to the inward man”, verse 22,

  and then we get it in Corinthians,

  “if indeed our outward man is consumed, yet the inward is renewed day by day”, 2 Corinthians 4: 16;

• it is a ques­tion of what we are inwardly in our souls, our affections.

A.M. Does this question of lowliness enter into our service in every sense? I was wondering about the peculiar reference in verse 14, the apostle bowing his knees, whether that is not to emphasise the necessity for a right, and particularly a lowly, approach.

A.J.G. I think it does, and it shows intensity of exercise too, “I bow my knees”, because I suppose the apostle realised that Satan would bring every influence he could to bear upon the saints to prevent them from entering into the full gain of the mystery.

S.E.W. Does he bring others in in verse 5,

• “Has not been made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets”?

A.J.G. He is referring, I think, to the sons of men as being those who are particularly in mind, indeed they are in mind, in what God has brought out now. It says in Proverbs 8, that

• “my delights were with the sons of men”, verse 31,

• it is men, and men in sonship that God has in view. It had not been known before in previous generations of the sons of men, but it has now been revealed.

P.L. Is it an appellation of divine affection?

A.J.G. I think it is – divine affection for men.

E.C.M. Would you say a word as to the mystery of the Christ, and the unsearchable riches of the Christ?

A.J.G. It is just, I think, the language that the apostle uses, he speaks of the mystery which was the great burden of his ministry, but then there is

the “glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ”;

• I suppose meaning that as he went out with the glad tidings, even though he might present what was elementary, he had nothing less than the full thought of the mystery in his mind as the ultimate objective in the glad tidings.

E.C.M. I wondered if the expression “the unsearchable” was not in keeping with the level of the epistle.

A.J.G. It surely is.

G.R.C. Does that expression “unsearchable riches” indicate the endowment of the assembly? The mystery of the Christ involves the assembly as with Him, does it not?

A.J.G. Yes, it does.

G.R.C. But is she not endowed with unsearchable riches?

A.J.G. That enters into what we come to in verse 10, that the present mind of God in the assembly is that

• even now “principalities and authorities in the heavenlies” might learn the “all-various wisdom of God”.

• I am sure it would give great dignity to our proceedings in all our meetings, the assembly service and care meetings and meetings of assembly character, and prophetic ministry, if we realised that principalities and authorities in the heavenlies were looking on, and they ought to be able to see “the all-various wisdom of God”.

For background to the following exchange see Doctrine: Man and Woman, re 'the token', and Guests: My Stand 1: Authoritative Ministry. The legitimate concept of 'authoritative ministry' was being misused here, making way for its use as a tool of oppression post 1959; and the divorcing of 'the token' – only in JND's footnote – and the need of "authority" from the injunctions as to being "covered" falls short of Paul's teaching.   GAR

S.McC. Is it not remarkable that in both chapters where we get a kind of a preface to the service of God, angels are brought in.

• In 1 Corinthians 11, where the Lord’s supper is the doorway into the service of God, the angels are alluded to in the matter of the token;

• and now here leading into the greatness of the service of God at the end of the chapter, the angels are alluded to again and their interest in the assembly.

A.J.G. That is very important, because it would give us to be more exercised in regard of every matter to remember that we are of the assembly, and the assembly is the great instruction book, you might say, to the principalities and authorities in the heavenlies,

• so that the matter of the token is a matter of importance, not to be disregarded, that there should be with every Christian woman the acknow­ledgement, as having something on the head, that she is placed under authority.

S.McC. That is one feature of the truth that there seems to be divergence about too, with those who minister.

• It is interesting that the two outstanding features that there have been divergence about are what lies at the entrance to the service of God, beginning with the Lord’s supper, and what enters into the climax of the service of God.

A.J.G. That is rather remarkable, but as regards the token, it seems to me that what is needed is to take account of the divine order in the creation, the divine order of headship, that is, Christ is the Head of every man, the man is the head of the woman, and Christ’s Head is God.

• I believe if that is given proper place in our minds, it will come home to every Christian woman that it is right that she should have on her head what is an indication that she recognises that she is placed under authority.

P.L. So that if there is not subjection in regard to headship in creation, can there be subjection in regard to the elevated realms connected with what pertains to the service of God and what is eternal in character?

A.J.G. There is sure to be a defect.

C.A.M. Does not that bring us back to the light that Mr. Darby had at the beginning of the revival, the headship of Christ and the presence of the Holy Spirit here?

A.J.G. Well, that was the headship of Christ to the assembly, of course, and the presence of the Holy Spirit here, and that was the great power, the element of power the Lord refers to in Philadelphia, I believe, “thou hast a little power”,

• but this is headship in regard of man as such, not head of the assembly, but man as such, even though he is uncon­verted, he is head of the woman.

— In the public order, you mean?

A.J.G. Yes.

C.A.M. I thought perhaps before we approached the Supper we would have to recognise that, in order to know the headship of Christ in the service.

A.J.G. I think that is right; the recognition of God’s creational order would help us in the spirit of subjection; the woman is to be subject because the man is her head, but then the man is to be subject because Christ is his Head, so that it would all help us in the element of subjection in our souls.

S.McC. As to the token, there is divergence with some who minister as to the meaning of the word in 1 Corinthians 11: 10, as to what is implied; would it not be an instance where the full weight of authoritative ministry should be allowed in our minds, and in the minds of those who serve in the ministry?

A.J.G. It is important that the authority of ministry which is clearly recognisable as authoritative, should be recognised, and if I do not see a thing, the fact that it is said in an authoritative ministry would have its weight with me.

S.McC. It is not that ministry is infallible like the Scriptures; the standard of truth is in the Scriptures, but if there is a little difficulty as to what a verse really involves, we should allow in our minds the full weight of the authority of the ministry linked with distinctive commission.

A.J.G. Quite so.

P.L. Do not we in the recognition and appropria­tion thankfully of the New Translation, endorse that, that where there is some question among those who know in relation to some word or other, or expression, that we thankfully lean to the spiritual and authorita­tive judgment of a man of God, Mr. Darby?

S.McC. Just so, that is good.

E.C.M. Does it not come out in the Lord’s commandment? Paul says, “the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord’s commandment”, 1 Corinthians 14: 37.

A.J.G. Yes, it does, and I think the difficulty in some minds is that they think of a token of the covering, but that is not quite the idea, the idea is authority, and Mr. Darby gives a note to say that means a token of the authority under which she is placed; there is one word for covering, there is another word in verse 10 for authority, not that they are necessarily two different things, because if any sister cared to wear something on her head all the time that meets the matter, but at the same time, in verse 10, the Spirit of God does not say covering, the Spirit of God says authority. That is to say there must at any rate be something on the head at all times that recognises that God has placed her under authority.

G.R.C. Does the covering stand related to the testimonial position as amongst men, whereas what you refer to as the token is definitely on account of the angels?

A.J.G. Quite so – it flows out of the position of headship definitely, as, of course, the covering does as well, but still it is especially in view of the angels, as you say.

A.McG. May I refer to the ministry of beloved Mr. James Taylor – I have been present on many occasions when he has stressed particularly the words of Scripture, “if anyone think to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor the assemblies of God”, 1 Corinthians 11: 16 – arrived at in the spirit of under­standing headship.

A.J.G. That is to say that there should be an end to all contention in the matter, and the only righteous way of ending contention is by submission to the truth.

For background to the foregoing exchange see Doctrine: Man and Woman, re 'the token', and Guests: My Stand 1: Authoritative Ministry. The legitimate concept of 'authoritative ministry' was being misused here, making way for its use as a tool of oppression post 1959; and the divorcing of 'the token' – only in JND's footnote – and the need of "authority" from the injunctions as to being "covered" falls short of Paul's teaching.   GAR

G.R.C. Do you think that if we are in the gain of headship according to 1 Corinthians 11, it makes way for headship as implied in this chapter, because does not the administration of the mystery involve the understanding of Christ’s headship of the assembly, so that the unsearchable riches in Him are available to us?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so, so that it is a question of the wisdom, “the all-various wisdom of God” being seen.

• It is a wonderful thing that there is a vessel here on earth in testimony, to whom all the wisdom of Christ is available,
  • “in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily”, Colossians 2: 9,

• so that when the queen of Sheba came to Solomon, she not only had all her questions answered, but she saw the wisdom of Solomon in the system that was operating under his hand, and then she says,
  • “happy are thy men … who … hear thy wisdom!” 2 Chronicles 9: 7.

• They were constantly getting wisdom from Solomon.

G.R.C. So in that case an earthly principality came to see the earthly Solomon, but now heavenly principalities see “the all-various wisdom of God” in the assembly under the headship of the true Solomon.

A.J.G. Quite so.

F.C.H. Have you any thought as to why in John 20, the angels speak to Mary as ‘woman’? The Lord speaks to her as woman, but the angels also. I wondered if this scripture in Ephesians bore upon it, that they could see there in Mary, something that was of special interest and they were seeing “the all-various wisdom of God” beginning to work out.

A.J.G. Well, I think we need to realise that angels are very much more interested in all that is going on among the saints than perhaps we have thought, so that there are not only the passages in 1 Corinthians 11, and Ephesians 3, but also in 1 Peter 1, where it says, “which angels desire to look into”, verse 12.

J.H. I was going to ask if you have any thought as to why “the all-various wisdom of God”, is to be made known to these principalities and authorities. Is it that there is to be an added flow of glory to God, even from angelic beings?

A.J.G. I think so; I suppose one way in which “the all-various wisdom of God” shines out in the assembly is the way that every form of evil as it arises is met, that is man is the battleground between God and Satan, and the challenge is taken up in the assembly which has Christ as its Head.

• Every form of evil is allowed to develop and assert itself while the assembly is here on earth, and it finds its answer in the assembly, and the truth goes through inviolate.

C.H. And does it stand connected in this section with the bringing out of what in fact has been a mystery; it seems to be connected that way,

• “what is the administration of the mystery hidden through­out the ages in God, who has created all things, in order that now to the principalities and authorities”, and so on.

A.J.G. Quite so.

P.L. And is their jealous door-keeping of the holy city in glory, the fruit of what they have learnt in grace, learnt in what has been operating in grace here in the assembly in testimony.

A.J.G. You are referring now to the angels at the gates of the city.

P.L. Yes, are they not publicly bound up with the display and glory in that day of what they have observed in the operations of grace in the assembly in this day?

A.J.G. Quite so.

G.C.S. Then there is joy before the angels of God over one repenting sinner.

A.J.G. May there be much joy of that sort. We can all afford to give joy to heaven, I am sure.

W.S.S. Would you say a word on verse 17 in regard to the Christ dwelling in our hearts through faith. Does that link up with what Mr. Darby calls that vast scene in which the glory of God is displayed in Christ?

A.J.G. I think it is a peculiarly affecting thought

• “that the Christ may dwell through faith, in your hearts”.

• He has a place in the heart of the assembly that He has nowhere else.

• He is really the husband cherished in the affections of His wife during His absence, and all His interests are cherished by her, and then as He has a place in our heart the whole system that centres in Him becomes intelligible to us, and we know that we have our place in the very centre of it.

H.W. Is the thought of access here in this chapter connected with that vast sphere of things, or is it access to God’s presence as in the second chapter?

A.J.G. “In whom we have boldness and access in confidence by the faith of him”,

• it is not defined, it is not simply access to God, but access into the whole realm you mean?

H.W. Yes.

A.J.G. I think that is right, it is through faith of Him.

W.S.S. That would link up with verse 17, would it not, wonderful contemplation for us, what has been secured in Christ.

A.J.G. Quite so, and then it says, “to know the love of the Christ”, so that, as Mr. Taylor has said, in the presence of these great things, the tendency might be for us to feel lost, but we are held anchored, so to speak, because we know the love of the Christ, and we are held in the power of that love in the very centre of the system of the Father’s pleasure.

W.S.S. And is that necessary to what follows,

• “that ye may be filled even to all the fuiness of God”?

A.J.G. I think so, there has been the strengthening of the Spirit, and the love of the Christ operating in our hearts, and the Father as the great Head of the whole system, so that you are brought into the presence again of the whole Godhead.

E.J.H. And would “being rooted and founded in love” give the basic capacity to take in the love of Christ, which in one sense is beyond us.

• I was thinking of
  • “being rooted and founded in love”,

• does that provide a basis of capacity to take in the wonderful love of Christ?

A.J.G. It is important that we should be rooted and founded in love because the whole thing that we are dealing with now emanates from divine love, the love of God.

G.R.C. Is it important to see that the Father, as well as the Son and the Spirit, is concerned that we should arrive at this truth of the fulness of God?

• Showing that the Father is not, in that sense, the ultimate in things, the Father Himself would strengthen us “that the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts” in order that we might arrive at this final thing, the fulness of God.

A.J.G. Quite so.

P.L. So that “to him”, verse 21, would involve the three Persons?

A.J.G. Surely, it is to God, “to him that is able to do far exceedingly above all which we ask or think, according to the power which works in us, to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all genera­tions of the age of ages”.

P.L. And links up with “your God” in John 20.

A.J.G. Yes.

G.R.C. And is it important that the service of God, especially as we think of this high level, requires the assembly – I mean as distinct from the family. The family underlies the assembly, but the assembly is a different conception.

A.J.G. Well, the assembly, I think, is the glorious vessel in which these things find expression. Is that what you had in mind?

G.R.C. Yes, a vessel in which Christ is enshrined, and which is under His headship for service. The family in itself does not convey the idea of service, the idea of a family necessarily, but in the assembly we are in a setting for that very purpose, of service, under the .headship of Christ, are we not?

A.J.G. So that the glory to God is in this vessel, in the assembly in Christ Jesus, it is in the most exalted way, in the way of moral elevation and intelligence and affection, everything is superlative in the assembly.

H.W. Would that explain, do you think, why we get this great thought coming before us first of all in Genesis 2? We do not get sonship, but we get Christ and the assembly as being what God had in mind to reach in view of response to Himself eternally.

A.J.G. I suppose Genesis 2 links up a good deal with the thought of heading up all things in the Christ, does it not?

A.G.B. In view of the peculiar stress given to the service of the Son and of the Spirit, how are we to understand this thought of the service of the Father?

A.J.G. Well, the apostle bows his knees to the Father because the Father is the great Source of all these things, and so he goes, you might say, to the fountain Head.

• “I bow my knees to the Father … of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named”

• showing that he has a sense that there is a vast range of glory comprising different families, but then he is concentrating on the unique position of this family, the assembly, and so he goes to the Father and prays that He would strengthen us
  • “with power by his spirit in the inner man”,

• the Spirit of the Father, giving us the capacity to have the Father’s own thoughts in regard of the whole realm of glory that He had devised, and in regard of Christ who is the Centre of it.

S.McC.These last two verses are very full, full in regard to God, and full in regard to the assembly; carried forward in the thought of the assembly here would be all the thoughts that we know in regard to the brethren of Christ, and the marital side, and the side of sonship, they are all carried forward in this thought, are they not?

A.J.G. I think so.

P.L. And is the word ‘Amen’ that we affirm worshipfully, and unreservedly and universally, what is before us?

A.J.G. I would think so.

P.L. And these meetings are intended to promote that, are they?

A.J.G. Quite so.

— “And let all the people say, Amen!” Psalm 106: 48.

F.C.H. Should we say ‘Amen’ to our own prayers? It is sometimes said that that should be left to others, but Paul said ‘Amen’ to his own, did he not?

A.J.G. Yes, quite so.

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