A.J.G. Well, one of our hymns aptly says that “Glory all belongs to God”, and the assembly in Christ Jesus is a vessel peculiarly graced of God in nearness and intelligence so that it is capable of appreciating divine glory better than any other family,

• and has ability in the Spirit to respond to it and ascribe glory to God better than any other family, so that I take it the praises in the assembly will give a certain lead to the praises of the universe;

• the glory is, of course, to God, and I would think it covers the thought of glory being ascribed to God on the one hand, and glory being brought to God by means of the service of the assembly in the character of the holy city.

G.R.C. Would you think it just to say that the doxologies you referred to in our first reading, the apostolic doxologies, will all find expression in the assembly in this service of giving glory to God.

A.J.G. Yes, I would think so. The doxologies are brought in, I believe, as showing that the essence of response to God lies in what is spontaneous,

• not that the doxologies exactly are formally response to God, because they are incorporated in the epistles written to the saints, but the spirit of it is there,

• what is called forth spontaneously from the soul of the writer in the Spirit’s power as various features of divine glory come before him.

G.R.C. I was thinking that while the praises would spring from our knowledge of God in intimacy in the economy, those doxologies you referred to cover a very wide range, and whether as we know the intimacy we are brought into, it equips us in a peculiar way, to give God glory

• as Creator, as in Romans 1, and

• in connection with the incarnation in Romans 9, and

• in connection with the wisdom of His ways in chapter 11, and

• His wisdom in connection with purpose in chapter 16, and

• His eternal majesty in Timothy.

• I was only asking for help, and what you have already said as to the assembly being equipped to praise God in every feature of His great­ness, rather encourages me to put this out.

A.J.G. I think it flows not only from the place of unique nearness to God that we have in Christ, but from the unique intelligence that we have in the Spirit, the Spirit of God.

A.P.C.L. The assembly generally is a feminine thought, and response to God has been pointed out to be masculine, in sonship; is that a question of distinguishing in our minds the personnel of the assembly.

A.J.G. It seems to me so, as far as I understand; the personnel are sons, and each has his own indivi­duality and yet there is a certain unification of the response in the power of the Spirit, and it all takes form in the assembly, the assembly in Christ Jesus as a great dignified vessel that can be used in this way before the whole universe.

G.R.C. Is that why the assembly is referred to as the assembly of God, not only in Corinthians the local setting, but in Acts 20.

A.J.G. Yes, I think so.

A.E.M. It says in Revelation 21 of the city that comes down from heaven, it has the glory of God.

A.J.G. That is very fine, the glory of the shining out of the love and wisdom of God Himself is really by means of the assembly, the city, and I suppose what underlies all that is that it is the body of Christ.

H.D.T. Would you think that that passage Mr. M. has just quoted is for the diffusion of that glory through the universe, whereas this glory is reflected back towards God Himself.

A.J.G. I think this includes what goes up to God in the way of ascription of praise, but I am not sure that we are to limit it to that; it seems to me that it is glory to God in the fullest way, including what is diffused as you say from Him in the. knowledge of Himself.

H. Webb. I was noticing the difference between the preposition used; it is not glory to God by the assembly but in the assembly. Would you please make that clear why that is?

A.J.G. That is where it is, where it is located and seen, and it is the assembly in Christ Jesus, that is the exceeding dignity and elevation of that company, or vessel.

H. Webb. Is there such a thing as a richer note of praise and worship by the assembly as an entity? One has sometimes thought there was, but I noticed that on Tuesday afternoon you made a difference between that and the response of sons, at least I thought you did. I should like to be a little clearer.

A.J.G. I speak subject to help the Lord may give, but I doubt myself whether we are to distinguish in that way between the response of sons and the response that is found in the assembly; it is characteristically the response of sons, but there it is, it is located in the assembly, one great public vessel in which it finds expression.

G.R.C. So has the assembly a unique place in relation to God? The family stands primarily in relation to God as Father, but has the assembly a unique place in relation to God; it is the city of God, the tabernacle of God, the habitation of God?

A.J.G. Well, it has, but then, of course, we have to remember that the assembly is itself a family, the greatest of all the families, and therefore it is not quite accurate, it seems to me, to say that the sons are in relation to the Father and the assembly in relation to God, because the assembly is a family itself, the greatest of them all, and every family stands in relation to the Father.

G.R.C. Yes, I quite agree with that, but I was wondering why the term ‘assembly’ is used, as in Hebrews 2, for instance, “in the midst of the assembly”.

A.J.G. I think it is because it has a certain public bearing, it is the special distinction attaching to that vessel or company.

S.McC. Does not the thought of the assembly, the word ‘assembly’, involve intelligence? It would not be right to think of the assembly femininely in relation to God, the assembly femininely always stands in relation to Christ.

A.J.G. Exactly.

G.R.C. But is not that rather the thought of the bride and the wife. She stands related to Christ, but the city is a feminine idea, “her shining is like a stone most precious”, and “Jerusalem above is our mother”.

S.McC. Yes, but that is a reference to the bride, the Lamb’s wife, the identifying of the city, but the city is a neuter thought, it is the vessel of glory.

H.D.T. So would it be right to say that the feminine side finds its climax in the truth of union?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so, as I understand the truth.

— Would not the experience we have on the first day of the week come into what we are saying?

A.J.G. I think so; you mean that as under the influence of Christ especially realised at the Supper, and as touching something of the gain of His showing His hands and His side, we come into the gain of union. Is that what you had in mind?

— Yes, and these things we are speaking of in the way of progression, if we had them really, are a matter of experience on the first day of the week.

H.D.T. Do you mean, Mr. —, that as we experi­ence a fresh sense of the bond that exists between Christ and the assembly we are more empowered by the Spirit to enter into the truth of association and go on to the full climax in the service?

— Yes, that is just what I thought the brethren experience, and are free to do in this city.

S.E.W. What is the force of the expression “unto all generations of the age of ages”?

A.J.G. It is an expression the Spirit uses to refer to eternity in the constant freshness of it, it seems to me; I do not know that one can say more than that, but I think we can be assured of this, that eternity will never grow old or stale, it will be characterised by constant freshness, so that the river of God is full of water, and the river is always flowing.

P.H.H. I suppose the thought of union always lies behind what follows in the service of God, does it not?

A.J.G. I think so, I think it is in the power of that, and in the support of the love of Christ, that we move on in the joy of association with Him to have part in the service of God.

G.R.C. Does the truth of union in that way give Christ the place of supremacy in our affections as the Beloved, which makes us so susceptible to His influence in the later phases?

A.J.G. Yes.

C.W.O’L.M. Would you say a word as to the statement,

• “able to do far exceedingly above all which we ask or think, according to the power which works in us”;

• does that lift us out of the limitations that belong to us on our side?

A.J.G. I think so, it is a question of the power that works in us, and that is divine power, it is the Spirit of God Himself, which is very encouraging, because we are touching such immense things that, in ourselves, we are conscious we are quite incapable of having part in them, but then power is operative in us beyond all that we could even ask or think.

S.McC.One thing that has been raised, and is in the minds of some of the brethren a good deal, is as to the Lord’s place in the assembly in the matter of the service of praise; and I think it would be well if something was said about it.

A.J.G. Well, of course, there is what is very remarkable in Hebrews 2, where it says

• “in [the] midst of [the] assembly will I sing thy praises”.

• What have you in mind, Mr. McC.?

S.McC. Some seem to think that He only does it through the assembly, through the saints,

• but it is important to see that He has His own part in it, that both sides are true,

• as Mr. Raven pointed out in his letter, in regard to the Person of Christ, quoting that scripture, as to our Lord’s part as Man Godward, entering into the service of praise;

• and as Mr. Taylor has pointed out, that He has His own part in it, He spoke here, when He was here,
  • “I praise thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth”.

A.J.G. I think that is important, that we need to keep that in mind, that there is the influence of Christ as Minister of the sanctuary, and Head of His body, but then there is what is personal to Him,

• “in [the] midst of [the] assembly will I sing thy praises”.

P.H.H. Would the sensitiveness which the Spirit gives, as for instance, on the Lord’s Day morning, enable us to perceive at times, even the part which the Lord Himself is expressing personally?

A.J.G. I am sure that is something which we all need to develop in, the sensitiveness that the Spirit would develop with us. Does not all this only stress the great need of sensitiveness on our part in practical acquaintance with the Spirit, so that His movements are discerned, and the Lord’s movements are dis­cerned? It is all mystery, and yet it is reality.

C.W.O’L.M. Might I ask one more question, whether in Hebrews 2 the assembly of God is the vessel in which Christ Himself can praise God, but in Ephesians 3 does not this vessel afford the Holy Spirit the means by which He can render glory to God, through “the power which works in us”?

A.J.G. It is just a question whether “in the midst of the assembly”, in Hebrews 2, is quite the thought of the body of Christ, or whether it is rather the dignity of such persons, the assembly of first-born ones for instance, whether it is not in the midst of such an assembly.

F.C.H. Mr. Taylor said some time ago, that the persons who serve are sons, and they serve as priests, and where they serve is in the sanctuary. That is right, is it not?

A.J.G. Surely.

H.D.T. And the service is in manhood.

A.J.G. Yes, indeed.

G.R.C. Would you say a word why, as to Psalm 22, from which Hebrews 2 is quoted, the heading there is “the hind of the morning”, a feminine expression?

A.J.G. I suppose perhaps, to emphasise the thought of deep feeling entering into this matter.

H.D.T. The feminine side often suggests depth and substance, does it not, formation, we might say, in regard of ourselves, what gives rise to what is expressed, rather than what is expressed.

A.J.G. That is why I suggested that it might be to emphasise the idea of depth of feeling.

— Is it out of place to ask what the brethren in London are free to do in the service, are they free to go on to speak to God as Father, Son and Spirit?

A.J.G. I have heard it in London meetings.

— And are the brethren wholly in that in the city?

A.J.G. As far as I know; I have not come across any divergence.

— I only raise the question because we are here with the brethren in London, and that we should all do the same thing.

A.J.G. Quite so.

S.McC. There is the thought in some minds that we do have the three Persons before us, but we are only speaking to One, that is the Father, but we keep in mind three Persons. But God in His fulness involves the three Persons, as in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

A.J.G. I think that is clear, because this passage at the end of chapter 3 leads up to our being filled even to all the fulness of God, and that cannot be limited, and then it immediately says “but to him” – that is to God, to that God referred to.

P.L. You mean that in what is vocal in praise, Mr. McC., it is not just a question of what is held in reserve in the mind, but what is expressed testi­monially in that way?

S.McC. Exactly, it includes what is held in the mind, as light in our minds, that is the truth, but then, God is so spoken of as in the name Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and so spoken to.

A.E.M. Some of us have been privileged to hear beloved Mr. Taylor address God in the final phase of the service, as Father, Son and Spirit. Is that so?

— Oh yes; quite so.

A.J.G. That is a good thing, because it is spiritual example and leadership, is it not?

A.E.M. That is why I quoted it.

P.H.H. We therefore have liberty, have we, not only to think of God as coming out into revelation in Father, Son and Spirit, but on the return line, as speaking to God, we can have liberty to speak to Him as God, but we can also have liberty to mention the full Name?

A.J.G. We had that yesterday; we were saying that the one Name is the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit; each Person of the Godhead being separately mentioned in that way, and each One before us objectively,

• and there are other scriptures, especially John 14 and this third chapter of Ephesians, which bring each of them before us objectively, and therefore each can become an Object of worship,

• but then it is God Himself who is covered by the Name, the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, so that there is also the privilege of speaking to God in the full recognition of what is comprised in that Name.

G.R.C. Mr. Darby, in an address given in 1840, said as regards 1 Corinthians 15: 28, “God will be all in all … God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, eternally blessed, Amen”, JND 2: 439.

• Later, in 1876, he wrote, “that God may be all in all – surely ever Father, Son and Holy Ghost; but God as such all in all”, JND 23: 468. His mature thoughts thus fully confirmed his early worshipful impressions.

W.C. I think if Mr. — would say a little more about speaking to each divine Person it might help. I think one can say that fairly generally, the brethren have come to speaking to God, and referring to Him, in that way, just generally, Father, Son and Spirit, but I rather gathered from what you said yesterday, there was something a little more in your mind, as to speaking to each of the Persons after we have turned to the Father, and to God. Had you anything in your mind as to specifically say, addressing the Lord Jesus in deity, and the Spirit in deity?

— What I said as far as I remember was that when you are speaking to one divine Person, as God, the others are not, so to speak, in your mind. They are there, but you are thinking of the One Person as God, and that can be done, and it is right to do it.

W.C. I just wanted to get it clear, because generally when we reach by way of the Father the thought of God, there is not much time left for development in relation to each of the Persons.

— I think what has just been said is a great matter, that in the service of God in the assembly it is a question of what the Lord might do, in leading us to what to say.

P.H.H. Some have made it a kind of matter of compulsion that as soon as the final stage is reached, not only the title God, should be used, but that the Name Father, Son and Holy Spirit must be used. I suppose actually we have liberty have we not? You would not say that we must use it every time?

— I think what you have remarked is right, that is the Lord is leading in what you might be led to say, so that you are not acting just under compul­sion, you are doing it as has been remarked, from the idea of worship, worship is in your soul.

P.H.H. And the Holy Spirit as moving amongst the brethren would enable us all to discern what is in the mind of the speaker?

— Quite.

A.P.C.L. What is in your mind, Mr. —, in your reference to speaking to each Person as God; was it in your mind that when we speak, worshipping the Lord Jesus, “to thee as God we bow”, He alone is in our hearts and minds at that time?

— Exactly, as God.

A.P.C.L. Yes, you are not referring exactly to when we arrive at God, addressing and holding each Person severally in our minds?

— No, I was not thinking of that, that is really the three, that is God, it is the three Persons, but all I was seeking to bring out when I asked, was that we spoke to the Lord Jesus as God, even in the early part of the meeting, which it is right to do, He is God, and so is the Spirit God in the same way, and the Father is God in the same way, but then as Mr. Darby says, “God all three”.

W.C. I think that helps, that it might be in connection with the Lord’s supper we address Him as God.

— Quite so, He is God.

A.J.G. That is the basis of our worshipping Him, is it not?

— Exactly.

R.W. Do we not address Him as Lord carrying in our minds the fact that He is God.

A.J.G. Yes, only that the idea of Lord is a different thought from that of God, but He is rightly worshipped, and the Spirit is rightly worshipped, and the reason for that is that each is recognised as God.

S.McC. A question arose in Council Bluffs about ten years ago as to whether it was right and intelligent to give out hymn 181 after the Supper; it was thought by the one who raised it that it was not right: “Thee the great I am we worship, mighty God, eternal One”.

• Mr. Taylor insisted that it was right in the light of Psalm 45 and other scriptures, that He can be worshipped as God in that relation.

P.H.H. In the same way would it not be right also to give out a hymn, not too long, perhaps, to the Spirit, worshipping Him as God?

A.J.G. Surely.

P.H.H. May I just ask for a further word about that, because some of our brethren in Sweden have been rather diverted by statements which they may have misunderstood; could a little be said about that, about the worship of the Spirit?

A.J.G. There again it is a question surely of how the Spirit Himself leads; He will not give undue prominence to Himself, but in order that the service of God should take on all the features that are proper to it, He will surely help us in that feature, and if we recognise the place that He is filling out in order that God might be suitably responded to, as having His own part in the economy, He being God, is it not suitable that there should be a moment in which the honour due to Him as such is accorded Him.

Ques. I was going to ask if hymn number 8 was given out, and we sing, “Blest Son we adore Thee”, do we have only that Person in mind as God?

A.J.G. I think that is clear, it must be so, the first verse is addressed to the Father, the second is addressed to the Son, the third is addressed to the Spirit, and then there is a verse which brings in the great thought that in the presence of the Father and the Son and the Spirit, we are in the presence of God in the fullest sense of the word, as the great end of our worship.

T.J.G. Is it not to be recognised that the value of that hymn is that it is one whole, and the four verses are essential.

A.J.G. That is the whole point in the structure of the hymn.

E.C.M. I would like to ask as to a hymn given out to the Spirit, it would hardly be honouring to the Spirit for anyone not to sing the hymn, would it?

A.J.G. It would be very dishonouring to the Spirit, it would be something amounting to an insult to the Spirit in the assembly of God.

S.McC.It is important in regard to what we have been saying, that there is the light that governs the position; if we draw near to the Father we speak to Him as “our God and Father”, but then there is the choiceness of the Name Father, and “Abba Father”, and so when we approach God as God and speak to Him as God, there is the choiceness entering into the revelation of Himself in Trinity, in Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

A.J.G. And that is what the assembly is to reach.

S.McC.Just so, so that in regard to what Mr. H. has said, while it is not compulsory, it would be seemly to expect something in that relation, just as we speak to the Lord, and as we speak to the Father.

A.J.G. Do you not think that if we have these things in our minds the Spirit will help us on those lines?

S.McC.Just so.

P.H.H. Does Hymn No. 3 help in that, mention is made in verse 2 of the Name, “Thy glorious Name”, then verse 3, “Thy glorious Name – God, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost”, “to Thee our worship now we bring”.

A.J.G. And that is addressed to God as Head exalted.

P.H.H. Quite so.

C.M. At what point would the worship of the Holy Spirit personally be appropriate?

A.J.G.. I think it has been suggested that seeing that the approach to God is, of course, in the reverse order to the way in which God has come out as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, a suitable place for the Spirit to be honoured would be early after having celebrated the Supper, so that there should be a certain appropriate order.

S.McC.It would not be the thought that there is a distinct phase to the Spirit, it does not seem to be contemplated, does it?

A.J.G. No, I think not, and I think that would be in keeping with the general sensibilities that the Spirit would promote, that He would not engage the saints unduly with Himself, His mission is to glorify Christ.

See Doctrine: Addressing the Holy Spirit. It should be understood regarding the previous remarks and the following discussion that even at this time brethren were generally somewhat confused as to when to recognize the Spirit both personally and as to His service. Subsequently it became clear that a formal recognition – following the marital relation to Christ and preceding moving to the Father – was in order based on “For through him” Christ “we both have access by one Spirit to the Father”, Ephesians 2: 18.   GAR

P.H. It speaks of God and Christ having a priest­hood, but not of the Spirit.

A.E.M. Is it not in order to always address the Spirit in connection with His service to us at any time?

A.J.G. I think so; I think we often find that in different phases of the meeting a certain recognition of His presence in support and leading comes into our praise, just you might say momentarily, and it tends to give a certain freshness and power to the matter.

A.E.M. Quite so.

P.L. A hymn like 337, in the first verse referring to His lowly service, and then going on to “Thy place in deity, Thy Person all inscrutable”. Is that what you have in mind, Mr. M.?

A.E.M. Yes, I think that the Spirit is to be worshipped in the early part of the meeting.

G.W.B. I was just going to enquire, you said, I think, that an appropriate time to worship the Spirit would be immediately after our having broken the bread?

A.J.G. After the elements, the loaf and the cup.

G.W.B. That would not interrupt the enjoyment of our relations with the Lord as His brethren, would it?

A.J.G. No, I think not, it is a question of sensi­bilities, and touching things lightly.

W.H.K. Does Genesis 24, where a portion is given to the servant before union is realised, afford us any guidance as to this?

A.J.G. I think that is a useful suggestion.

W.H.K. Because the Holy Spirit would not inter­vene, as it were, when union has been reached, would He?

A.J.G. No, save as Mr. M. has remarked, that at any point as we are conscious of His help there is nothing out of place in just alluding to Him in that way, you might say, incidentally. That was what was in your mind, Mr. M.?

A.E.M. Yea, quite so.

E.J.H. Does not that involve that we should have the whole of the truth in our minds and hearts?

A.J.G. That is what we are trying to help one another into at this time.

A.E.M. I should like to ask, in connection with that, whether we give the Father his proper place. The Father is said to be “greater than all”; could not the Father have His proper place, and the Lord and the Spirit relatively?

A.J.G. I believe that is important, and I think one has discerned a tendency in some places as desiring to follow up the present truth and to arrive at the thought of God in the fullest sense, as the supreme Object of worship, almost to hasten unduly and not to give sufficient place to the Father. Do you feel that, too?

A.E.M. Yes.

E.J.M. Is it thought then that the Father should have the major part of the service in that way?

A.J.G. I think that would be in keeping with the place He has in the economy.

Perhaps we might now pass on to our chapter, because while it is not perhaps on the same level as the matters of which we have been speaking, it has its importance because it comes down now to a question of what is practical in our testimony here,

• and especially the matter of unity, which, of course, is a question of what is worked out in our localities, and there is nothing greater in the question of testimony than the unity of the saints, nothing more important.

• The Lord’s prayer in John 17 shows that, the great importance in His mind that He attached to the question of the saints being one, and the reason for that is clear; it is because God is One, and therefore unity is lifted up to a most exalted level, and any disunity among the saints is a slur on the testimony.

F.C.H. Would you say how verse 6 bears on what we have been saying?

• “One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in us all”.

A.J.G. I think we need to take the verses in their order, first of all there is one body and one Spirit,

• “as ye have been also called in one hope of your calling”,

• that is the Spirit is brought in as a great unifying influence among the saints, “one Spirit”, involving one body and one hope of our calling, that of course is in the inner side of the matter,

• and then the Lord is brought in as another great unifying influence among the saints, in connection with the public position,
  • “one Lord, one faith, one baptism”,

• and then the Father is brought in as a further unifying influence among the saints

• and then you might say overriding all that is the great fact that the Spirit and the Lord and the Father are themselves one in infinite unity, so that the knowledge of God in the most complete way is brought in as a great unifying influence among the saints.

J.McD. Would you say a word as to why in the consecutive references to the Trinity in the apostolic writings, the thought of God is connected with the Father. I refer to 1 Corinthians 12,

• “the same Spirit, the same Lord, the same God”.

• 2 Corinthians, “the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the communion of the Holy Spirit”,

• and this scripture, and the scripture that was read last night, with the salutation,
  • “from him who is, who was and is to come”,

• and then the seven Spirits, and then from Jesus Christ. Is it because in the economy, as has been said so much in the ministry, God is presented in the Father?

A.J.G. I think so, and that the Father is supreme, and that the public presentation of God, you might say, is as Father, in the grace of that Name,

• but then we are privileged to understand what lies behind that, that is all that is involved in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, of course, within the limits of the economy.

• There is what is known publicly, “the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world”, but then we know that there is the Father and the Son and the Spirit.

J.McD. I have no difficulty in my mind as to that, that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but I was just enquiring as to what characterises the apostolic references to the Trinity, every time the Persons are spoken of consecutively.

A.J.G. Yes, because the Father is supreme in the economy, I take it, that He retains the position of Godhead, while the Son and the Spirit serve in a subordinate capacity.

J.McD. I thought that. Would you just perhaps refer more to Revelation 1 where it says, “he who is, and who was and is to come”, and then the seven Spirit, and then Jesus Christ, in view of Mr. Darby’s note, that “who is, refers to essential being”.

A.J.G. For that reason I would not like to exactly say that that is the Father to the exclusion of the Others, it is really a presentation of God in His absoluteness as the One who is.

J.McD. That is what was in my mind, and while we would not say it is the Father, the reference to the three, distinguishing the Spirit and Jesus Christ, would naturally in our minds connect that with the Person of the Father.

A.J.G. I quite see that, but do you not think it helps to take things as they are presented, that we

• first have God presented in that absolute way, as the One who is, and was, and is to come, we are to be before Him, because it is a question of the testimony in the most difficult times when evil rises to its height, and therefore faith is first of all to be in the presence of Him who is, in a most absolute way,

• and then the seven Spirits which are before His throne; that is not referring to the Spirit as in heaven, although you cannot say He is not in heaven, but it is referring to the Spirit in His activities here, sup­porting the throne of God in fulness of power, and available wherever He is needed,

• and then Jesus Christ last, not that He comes last in the order in the economy, but presented last there because it is a question of the testimony being carried through in man, on the principle of suffering, and He has led in that way.

J.McD. I wanted just to say, so that I may not be misunderstood, that if a salutation comes in a combined way from the three Persons separately, it would justify and expect on our part, response in the same way.

A.J.G. I think that is so, and I am very glad to hear you point it out, because that presentation of the. Spirit is a unique feature of John’s writings, you get nothing quite like it as far as I know in Paul’s writings, and John writes peculiarly for the last days, the days in which we are, and the unique way in which he presents the Spirit in his writings is a matter that we might well take account of.

S.McC. Mr. Taylor used an illustration which helps a little, though all illustrations fail when it comes to God, but Rome was ruled by a triumvirate, and at times, one or two of the triumvirate might be in the field leading the armies in service, or in other features of administration, and the one who was there in Rome in the triumvirate represented the whole thought, but then the triumvirate itself involved all three

• it fails, of course, because of just being a mere human illustration, but it illustrates what has been said, why the Father is generally referred to as God in the epistles.

A.J.G. I think it is very remarkable, one has often thought of that, that in the affairs of men, God allowed that position to arise just to give a kind of inkling of the real idea, but, of course, in the hands of men it must break down, as it did.

P.H.H. Do you mind saying a word as we are on this, on 1 Corinthians 15, where it says

• “then the end, when he gives up the kingdom to him who is God and Father”.

• That is what Mr. McD. has been speaking about, but after a considerable list of things done, Paul ends up,
  • “that God may be all in all”,

• without mentioning the Father.

A.J.G. Well, the Father has given all things into the hands of Christ and so you can understand that He yields up the kingdom to Him who is God and Father, but then the final end is, that

• God, in the fullest sense, is to be all in all, the Father in supremacy in grace and love, and the Son and the Spirit sup­porting the position in self-subordinating love, and you get a complete presentation of love in the Three.

P.H.H. So that the writings of the apostles are in a sense governed by this final thought, while it may not be their point in immediate ministry to bring out the finality of their line, but to insist on something else, perhaps for adjustment or encouragement.

A.J.G. Quite so.

A.P.C.L. Then in 1 Corinthians 12 that has been referred to, the distinctions of gifts but the same Spirit, there are distinctions of services, and the same Lord, there are distinctions of operations, but the same God who operates all things in all.

• That is not necessarily a statement of the Trinity, because lower down, in verse 11, it says,
  • “but all these things operates the one and the same Spirit”.

• Is it not a question there that, whether it is the same Spirit or the same Lord, it is the operations of the same God?

A.J.G. Quite so, and the great point there is unity.

S.McC. And is that not a distinctive feature of John’s ministry, Christ and God are spoken of in different passages, and it is difficult to distinguish which one John is referring to? ­

A.J.G. Yes, quite so.

J.McD. I was not raising any question, for there is none in my own mind, as to what has been said, that God is the final thought, when the Lord reaches it in John 20, He says “my Father and your Father, and my God and your God”, and Paul in the scripture that has been referred to, and Peter when he refers to eternity says “the day of God”, and in Revelation 21 it is God. I was not saying anything in any sense to weaken what has been said.

A.J.G. No, I quite appreciate that. We are very glad of all that is brought in because we are getting help together.

G.R.C. Could we have a little more help as to the Lord’s own Person in connection with finality.

• It says “the Son shall be placed in subjection”.

• Is that viewing Him as Man on our side, whereas if we view Him on God’s side the fulness ever dwells in Him bodily; could there be in that connection no thought of subordination?

A.J.G. Is it not wise just to take the matter as it stands, that the Son shall be placed in subjection, He is available for that, it involves that He is ready, ready to take that place and He is placed there in subjection, and that in all eternity.

H.D.T. So that the economy continues in that way.

A.J.G. Quite so, and the subjection proper to the creature is maintained under the influence of Him who is no creature, and yet He is in that position.

G.R.C. I was thinking of what was said yesterday, that we have to view the Lord in two ways, what He is from God to us, and what He is on our side, whether that remains right through eternity?

A.J.G. Yes, it does, so that all our knowledge of God is in Christ, it is in Him that we see God.

E.A.K. Could one just enquire at this point whether in the scripture before us, the reference to “one Lord” does not involve the thought of Christ as having been made Lord?

A.J.G. Yes, I think it does, it is a question of the public position, and I believe we get these things illustrated in the early chapters of the Acts, I mean in Acts 2 and 4 we get one body and one Spirit illustrated, in that it says

• “all that believed were together and had all things common”, and “the heart and soul of the multitude of those that had believed were one”.

• That is the influence of the one Spirit, binding the saints together in one body, and then in Acts 9 you get Saul converted and Ananias comes to him and he says,
  • “Saul, brother, the Lord has sent me, Jesus that appeared to thee in the way in which thou camest”,

• and so on, as though to say I have known the Lord Jesus for some time, and now you have been brought to know the Lord Jesus, and so we are one, we are brought together into oneness by the confession of the same Lord; that was the public position.

E.A.K. The reason one sought to make the enquiry was that the statement that Lord always involved Deity was not quite understood.

A.J.G. Well, of course, the Lord Jesus having become Man, God would not make any other Man than Christ Lord, but as you say, I think this “one Lord” is connected with the fact that God has made Him Lord.

— Does not the first verse, therefore, of the chapter, “a prisoner in the Lord”, throw this matter into relief, and it is what perhaps we need, that is to be under the authority.

A.J.G. Quite so, and under authority in the testimony.

S.E.W. Are we coming on to the responsible side now, and is that why the apostle refers to himself as the prisoner in the Lord?

A.J.G. Yes, we are coming on to the side now of the practical walk that is in keeping with the exalted matters that we had in the earlier part of the epistle, and it is to be noticed that he speaks of walking worthy of the calling wherewith we have been called,

• “with all lowliness and meekness”

• – bringing that in at the outset. It has often impressed. one, that the man Moses, who was meeker than any on the face of the earth, was the man to whom God showed the pattern of the tabernacle,

• and I have no doubt He showed him what the whole system meant, and spoke to him about the Man who was to be the centre of the system, who He would be and what kind of Man he would be, and you can understand that Moses would become very meek as shown these things in the presence of God.

J.B.S. Would you say a word as to what is said as to God and the Father here? There is a lot said about Him. Would you open up each of these state­ments please?

A.J.G. “One God and Father of all, who is over all”.

• Well, that is His supremacy, I think, as was remarked, the Lord says, “my Father is greater than all”.
  • He says, “my Father is greater than I”, and also

  • “my Father who gave them me is greater than all”.

• So that the Father is presented here in His supremacy, and through all is perhaps the thought of His operating through all – “and in us all”, that is to say, He is held in our affections.

J.T.S. May we come back to your remark as to lowliness and meekness, are they not seen supremely in Jesus? We love to think of Moses as meek, and as has been said, that is light reflected backwards, but are these features not supremely seen in Jesus, and we would delight in them as learning them in Him?

A.J.G. Exactly, and that is most important, so that the Lord says

• in Matthew 11, “come to me … take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am meek and lowly in heart”,

• that is, what He was in meekness and lowliness sprang from what He was inwardly, and that is the heavenly Man down here, to give character to the whole heavenly system, entirely in contrast to all that is around us and all that we tend to take on if we are not watchful to learn from Christ.

C.E.H. I would like to ask whether Paul, when he says, “I, the prisoner in the Lord”, in contrast with prisoner of the Christ Jesus, was not in his spirit characteristically a bondman in keeping with his own ministry, and therefore a bondman of the Lord?

A.J.G. That is what is so helpful with Paul, that he does exemplify his ministry, and is allowed by the Spirit of God, as so much formed by the truth, to call attention to himself, so that in addressing the Corinthians

• he says, “I myself Paul, entreat you by the meekness and gentleness of the Christ”.

• Well now, the Corinthians would know Paul well enough, and they wowd know whether that was true or not, they would know that he was really entitled to speak in that way, “I myself Paul”.

P.L. He was the exponent of what he was expounding?

A.J.G. Exactly.

P.H.H. Do you think these men in the scriptures who were very eager for the unity of the saints fit into this;

• I was thinking, for instance, of a man like Joseph, he was very exercised about the brethren being united; he did many things to help them, including putting the food in the cities and so on, and Moses, exercised about all the tribes, and David, and Paul himself;

• do you think the practical bearing and activity of such men taking on the spirit of Christ would be a help in what it says here, the
  • “diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit”.

A.J.G. Exactly.

P.H.H. You were saying earlier it works out in localities.

A.J.G. That is where the testimony is rendered, and that is why unity is of such extreme importance, unity among the saints, because God is One and we bear God’s Name in testimony here,

• and hence the great importance of seeing that any elements of disunity are really judged at their roots.

• It is a question of appropriating the cross, which the love of Christ entitles us to appropriate, and the Spirit gives us power to do so.

P.H.H. I suppose a locality united within itself merely, does not mean that the locality is right.

A.J.G. No, it has to be united in the truth, in love in the truth, and then, of course, there will be love to all saints if that is so; you do not want a unity that is merely based on something social or anything of that sort.

P.H.H. No, and you do not want brethren saying, Well, we all think this. It is a question of being governed by the overall supremacy of the truth, is it not?

A.J.G. Quite so.

C.M. Would the approach to gift both here and in Corinthians being preceded by the thought of oneness as to the Godhead, affect us, so that all who serve should be in line and working towards a common unity?

A.J.G. Exactly, and it is striking that in this scripture, the One who has ascended up far above all heavens that He might fill all things, is the One who has first gone down to the uttermost extent, that is to say the influence that He exerts from the place He has gone up to, is the influence of One who has gone down. It is a very subduing influence upon us all.

S.McC. So that you have diversity in gift, but diversity is not divergence.

A.J.G. No, it is not. Really the more diversity there is the more glorious the unity seen in it appears.

J.McD. Would you say a word about the difference between the unity of the Spirit which exists and the unity of the faith which we are to arrive at through ministry.

A.J.G. I think the unity of the Spirit is something that as you say exists; in a sense it lies in the divine nature, that is to say we naturally love one another, there is a certain bond in the Spirit that unites all saints,

• only the great thing is to keep out anything that interferes with it, so we are to be diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace,

• but the unity of the faith involves that we are all appropriating the truth, and all governed by it.

G.R.C. Would you say a word as to the thought of the uniting bond of peace, because conflict has to come in sometimes.

A.J.G. Conflict for the truth has peace in mind; it is a means of arriving at peace. There is no true peace if the truth is not maintained.

W.S. The unity of the faith, must it not be essentially universal?

A.J.G.. Yes, we are all to arrive at the unity of the faith. “The faith” is one great matter, and we are all to take it on.

T.J.G. Would it be right to say then that the unity of the faith is something that exists. It is not that we all agree, but that we arrive at something that exists as a unified whole.

A.J.G. Well, the faith exists, but we are to arrive at the unity of the faith, by all holding it and being formed by it.

N.K.M. Would it be right to say that the unity of the Spirit is a matter of love and the unity of the faith a matter of intelligence?

A.J.G. I think that is how it works out.

W.S.S. Does not this raise an exercise with us as to being in the flow of love in the way of ministry which is coming to us from the One who has ascended up that He might fill all things. Would that not be necessary to our moving in the unity?

A.J.G. I think it is, and so it says, “until we all arrive at the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge” – that is the unity of the knowledge, “of the Son of God, at the full grown man”.

• For it is not only a question of a system of truth, although that is important, but then it is a question of the whole truth being apprehended in the Person of the Son of God, and that He sets forth the standard of manhood that God is looking for.

W.S.S. And is not this flow of ministry the expression of the love of Christ to us at the present time.

A.J.G. It is, surely.

J.S.E. Does this matter that you are on now, bring home to us what was brought up yesterday afternoon, as to those who serve, serving in unity.

• Paul in his exhortations is in an authoritative position, but when he speaks of arriving at the unity of the faith he says, “we all”.

• Is it not significant that the greatest of all ministers uses a word which shows we cannot afford – to be outside the whole body of the brethren in this great matter of unity.

A.J.G. Quite so, he is identifying himself with the brethren and the brethren with him. “Until we all arrive”.

— Do you think that the apostle in not linking anybody with himself in the first chapter would stress his authority?

A.J.G. I think so, and that he is an apostle by God’s will too, stressing that this is peculiarly a matter of God’s will.

— Yes, quite so.

J.H. Is it a matter of intelligence on our part to see how delightful this unity is in the eyes of God. I was thinking of the prophetic word in Ezekiel as to the Spirit’s operations,

• “I will put my Spirit in you”, chapter 37: 14, and that which was divided becomes one, “neither shall they be divided”, verse 22.

• It becomes one stick. And then the delightful suggestion that
  • “I will be their God”, verse 23; “and my tabernacle shall be over them”, verse 27.

• How delightful this unity amongst the saints is in the eyes of God.

A.J.G. I believe it is very important for us to weigh well the fact that God is One, there is infinite unity between the Persons of the Godhead, and that we are here on earth in testimony as a testimony to God,

• and therefore it is a slur on His Name if there is disunity among the saints.

• And further, as has been said, He can only take pleasure in conditions that are the reflection of what He is in Himself.

A.P.C.L. So that in 1 Timothy 2, in the initial presentation of things,

• “our Saviour God who desires that all men should be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth”,

  is followed immediately by,

• “for God is One and the Mediator of God and men One”.

• The word used for “knowledge” there is “coming into the possession of the thing”. Does that show what is initial in the mind of God in presenting the truth to men?

A.J.G. Yes, I would think so. I think it is a very important thing to see that really God is the subject of testimony;

• of course, I know Christ is the subject of testimony, because God’s glad tidings is concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord,

• but then God is known in Christ, but really God is the subject of testimony; it is the truth as to God that has been in contest in the world ever since sin came in.

E.J.H. And are we not challenged as to truth in the inward parts in relation to unity, because there may be an element of disunity locally, and we may agree to be of one mind, but if we are not agreed in our hearts in regard to the truth there is no spiritual unity, is there?

A.J.G. No, quite so. So that we are told here that we are to hold the truth in love, and grow up to Him in all things who is the Head, from whom. It shows how the living influence of Christ is what really matters,

• “from whom the whole body fitted together and connected by every joint of supply according to the working in its measure of each one part, works for itself the increase of the body to its self-building up in love”.

S.E.W. Why is the word omitted here that is put in in the Psalms where the gifts are referred to, that is, “even for the rebellious”?

A.J.G. Well, of course, that is what we all are when the gospel first reaches us, but then the grace of God is intended to overthrow the rebellion, and here the apostle is not writing to rebellious persons; he is writing to the saints and faithful in Christ Jesus.

P.L. And is this not a prophetic and dispensational reference in the Psalm to the Jewish nation finally. Hence it has its part in the Psalms which it would not have here?

A.J.G. Yes, quite so.

P.H.H. How do you understand the expression in verse 15, “we may grow up to him in all things” ­that expression, “in all things”?

A.J.G. I think it is that we keep Christ before us, as the great standard and pattern of what is pleasing to God in manhood.

• Mr. Taylor said years ago in connection with this passage, and the thought of arriving at the knowledge of the Son of God, that He is God’s Ideal, and we are always to have that before us.

• We do not assume to have arrived at it, but we grow up unto Him in all things. You do not allow any other standard in your mind.

P.H.H. Would it, as far as we are concerned, save us from any disproportion in our apprehension of the truth.

A.J.G. You mean “in all things” would do that? Yes, I think so.

P.H.H. Because it obviously has the body in mind, as it says, “the whole body”, the human body growing up in every part of it, proportionately, would that give somewhat the idea?

A.J.G. I think it would. So that we are given four gospels to present Christ to us objectively, each presenting, you might say, a different view, and the whole thing is to be held in our minds so that we are balanced.

P.H.H. Quite so. I thought perhaps it might incidentally save us from being a kind of specialist on any particular part of the truth, but being fully in line with the assembly.

G.C.S. Ephesians 1 says that He is made “head over all things to the assembly”.

A.J.G. Quite so, and then He is Head of the assembly, Head of His body the assembly, which derives from Him.

E.J.H. Would you say that we get the superlative­ness of gift in order that the sons of men may reach manhood according to God?

A.J.G. Yes, surely, and manhood has a double importance, it is the pleasure that God finds in men on the one hand and then what men are as representative of Him on the other hand.

H.M. What is the meaning of “that they also may be one in us” in John 17? Does that connect with this passage? Verse 21 reads,

• “that they may be all one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us, that the world may believe that thou hast sent me”.

A.J.G. That only emphasises the importance of unity as a matter of testimony, that the world may believe. I take it “that they may be one in us” refers to what we have in the knowledge of the Father and the Son. It is the common property of us all.

Ques. Would you say a word before we close on verse 7?

A.J.G. “But to each one of us has been given grace according to the measure of the gift of the Christ”.

• That is for each one to take up, it says in verse 16,
  • “according to the working in its measure of each one part”,

• that is every brother and every sister is to fill his part in connection with this unity of the saints.

S.McC. In the end of chapter 4 nothing is said about repentance; would it be the attitude, the spirit more that marks us in our relations with one another?

A.J.G. That is it, it is what is always in our hearts, the attitude that we maintain towards one another.

E.J.H. As patterned after the Lord Jesus in Luke 7: 1.

A.J.G. Quite so, save that here it is specially God that is before us, and God is the standard in the epistle to the Ephesians;

• Christ is the standard in the epistle to the Colossians,

• but God is the standard in the epistle to the Ephesians.

P.H.H. The forgiveness here is not regarded as an administrative act at all, if I judge rightly, but more a characteristic of the persons walking in the new man?

A.J.G. Yes, that is the thought, other scriptures deal with the administration of it, as you say, but this is what is to be underlying in our minds and hearts.

H.D.T. So that the carrying forward of an unfor­giving spirit may, and will, grieve the Holy Spirit of God with which we are sealed to the day of redemption?

A.J.G. Yes, certainly, it is a question of being imitators of God as beloved children.

–.W. Referring to Colossians 3: 13, “forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any should have a complaint against any; even as the Christ has forgiven you, so also do ye”.

A.J.G. That bears out what we said, that Christ is the standard in Colossians, and I believe because the main line of thought is what appears under God’s eye for His pleasure, but God is the standard in Ephesians, because the great thought is the glory or expression of God.

F.C.H. Is it right to say that while it is the love of God there, it has come into perfect expression in Christ? Walking in love would be the apprehension of the thoughts of divine love about the saints, and that has come into perfect expression in the self ­sacrificing love of Christ?

A.J.G. Yes, it has come into concrete expression, in the Christ; it is wonderful the place that the Christ has in this epistle, so great that all things are to be headed up in Him, and yet that He should devote Himself to giving this perfect expression of what God is in love, so that we might be rightly affected by it.

G.A.L. Is it more a question of nature in verse 1, as beloved children – the nature of God – I was wondering in that way whether in this passage it approximates very much to John’s epistle?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so, but I think the stress is on the fact that we are beloved children, we are to carry the sense of that.

C.M.M. Would you be free to say a word as to assembly forgiveness? A good deal has been ministered of recent years, and I wondered if you could say something confirmatory as to what should be held amongst us.

A.J.G. It seems to me to be significant that, in Matthew, the assembly gospel, the Lord shows that where two or three are gathered together to His name, there He is in the midst, and He says,

• “whatsoever ye shall bind on the earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on the earth shall be loosed in heaven”.

• That is to say He is giving His power and authority to the binding on earth first, and also the loosing,
  • which was one of the things most necessary as the truth was initially recovered, because in the systems around there is no real power to deal with evil,

• and it was most important in separating to the name of the Lord, that the saints should learn that He was there to support them in dealing with evil; and therefore in Matthew it says,
  • “whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on the earth shall be loosed in heaven”.

• But then John comes in in the last days to fill out the truth on the line of life, and as bringing in the love that is proper to the family, and so he records that the Lord, after He had breathed into the disciples, communicating His own spirit, says,
  • “whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted, whosoever sins ye retain they are retained”,

• putting the remitting first, as though the spirit of remission is to be with the brethren.

• It is not, of course, to be exercised at the expense of righteousness, but the great thing is that the dispensa­tion is characterised by the spirit of remission. Does that answer your question at all?

C.M.M. Yes, so this scripture would help as under­lying that, the attitude of mind, do you think whether individually or in assembly, would be that of forgive­ness, we have it in our hearts?

A.J.G. I think so. It is a great thing to carry in our own minds, each one of us, how much we have been forgiven.

S.McC. A question has arisen in some parts as to whether forgiveness is administered wherever you have repentance, irrespective of the enormity of the guilt. Perhaps this is a time when we might get some help on that.

A.J.G. I think you are alluding to the fact that in 1 Corinthians 5, it is an enormous offence, which was a public matter, and a blot on the testimony, and that there was no question there at that point of forgiving the offender. Is that what is in your mind?

S.McC. Just so.

A.J.G. So that the assembly was called into it because one great matter, as I see it, in all assembly discipline, is that the assembly is to be in the matter and to feel it before God, and everyone in the assembly to be searched in relation to the matter in the pre­sence of God,

• but then in the second epistle God has wrought repentance in the man, and therefore there is the confirming of the love of the brethren towards him.

S.McC. So that the recent emphasis on the spirit and grace of the dispensation was not intended in any way to minimize the enormity of guilt where it may be found.

A.J.G. No, it certainly is not. We can only measure the true character of the enormity of sin, and especially that which is a gross blot on the testi­mony, in the light of the cross of Christ and the sufferings of Christ.

G.R.C. Would you say a word as to what the apostle says in 2 Corinthians 2,

• “if I have forgiven anything it is for your sakes in the person of Christ”?

• What does he mean by saying “in the person of Christ”. Does that qualify the terms of forgiveness?

A.J.G. I never feel sure that I understand that expression in that connection, whether it is possibly that now that there had been brought about repen­tance in the offender, he is viewing the saints, includ­ing the offender, in the Person of Christ. I should be glad of any help any brother can give.

G.R.C. In the verse we are on it says

• “God also in Christ has forgiven you”.

• That is a little different, I know, but there are the two expressions.

S.McC. Is it not the high level of Paul’s move­ments that is before us. I thought that was sug­gested in “it is for your sakes in the person of Christ”, the dignified and elevated level on which he was moving.

A.P.A. The word in verse 10, “the person of Christ”, the “Person” is the same word as translated “face” of Christ in 2 Corinthians 4: 6.

• “The shining forth of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ”.

A.J.G. Did you mean, Mr. McC., that the apostle was carrying all that in his mind, and it was affecting his attitude toward the Corinthians and the offender?

S.McC.That is how I understand it, the high level on which Paul was moving, in 2 Corinthians, as J.T. drew attention to it in Barnet in 1929, he says,

• “if I have forgiven anything it is for your sakes in the person of Christ”.

• He was moving on a dignified and high level.

P.H.H. Would that character pertain to the for­giveness as well? namely that the forgiveness would carry the glory and fulness as if it had been ministered by the Person of Christ?

A.J.G. So that if forgiveness is there it is complete and unreserved and unconditional.

W.C. Is it the counterpart to the judgment in chapter 5 in which he says,

• “I, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged as present, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ … him that has so wrought”, and so on?

• That is, would the forgiveness here be in the Person of Christ repre­sentatively, the apostle representing the Lord Jesus Christ in judgment and then the Person of Christ in forgiveness?

A.J.G. I thought the name of our Lord Jesus Christ was the authority and the power, but I think what Mr. McC. has said as to the level of things according to which the saints were regarded and the apostle was ready to act, was perhaps in mind in the expression “the person of Christ”.

W.C. Yes, I was thinking of the greatness of the forgiveness in that connection.

A.J.G. Yes, exactly. So that where forgiveness is ministered it is unstinted,

• “as God also in Christ has forgiven you”.

Ques. I would like a little further help as to the case of a person who has sinned a grave sin which is a blot upon the testimony, as to when he would be forgiven.

A.J.G. When there is evidence that he has repented and is clear of the sin, but if there is a serious blot on the testimony publicly the saints have to pronounce their judgment upon it, and repudiate it publicly.

A.H-n. Has not the word been used as to capital sin? And does that not call for great sensi­bility on the part of the saints to decide?

A.J.G. It does; of, course in one sense some other sins, religious evil, for example, might be as bad morally from one point of view as some of these gross things that we speak of, but it is a question of their relation to the testimony, the public testimony connected with the name of God.

P.H.H. Is what is being said to mean that no mere verbal expression of repentance would quite meet the position.

A.J.G. Not in a case like that, but I suppose in all these matters there is need of the element of spiritual discernment as to the true state of the person.

• When there is true self judgment there, then the person is, in the Spirit, in the gain of the death of Christ, and as the Spirit has regained His place in his soul practically, he is apart from what once marked him.

G.W.B. Are there any circumstances which would modify in any way the Lord’s word in Luke 17: 3,

• “take heed to yourselves, if thy brother should sin, rebuke him, and if he should repent, forgive him”.

A.J.G. I would say that that is in keeping with what we have been saying as to the last verse of chapter 4 of the epistle, that it is a question of forgiveness being ready all the time, in our hearts, so that if a brother sins he is to be rebuked, and if he should repent he is to be forgiven, that is the general attitude of the brethren.

• But that does not in any sense overthrow what has been said as to a certain character of sin which on account of its influence on the testimony publicly, requires. to be publicly repudiated.

G.W.B. When you say publicly repudiated, you mean that the thing is to be taken up by the assembly? You do not necessarily mean that it might result in excision, or would it?

A.J.G. I would say it probably would, in these cases, because in such a matter the reality. of repentance, so that the matter is complete, is probably not arrived at in a moment, not that one would limit the power of God.

G.A.L. Is there not a sense in which the saints have to feel the thing too, in the sense of mourning. It says in 1 Corinthians,

• “ye have not rather mourned”,

• as though the state of the saints has to come into the matter too, as eating the sin offering before God.

A.J.G. I believe that is one of the most important elements in these assembly meetings to deal with evil.

• It is really set before us in type in the case of Achan, where the whole of the people had to come before God, and then the lot was cast and the tribe was taken, and then they had to come before God family by family, and then house by house, and then man by man,
  • so that it was a great process involving much heart-searching in the presence of God,

• and I believe that is one of the most important elements in these meetings of assembly character to deal with evil.

E.A.K. Could the character of evil in mind be made a little clearer because this is a very widespread matter and there is much concern, and there may be unresolved exercises at the present time.

• What is in one’s mind is beloved Mr. Taylor’s repeated expres­sion that if a man has judged himself what is there to bring to the assembly?

A.J.G. Well, that is so, and that is just what causes these different exercises; 1 Corinthians 5 refers to the man “being such”.

H.D.T. That means he was not repentant, does it not?

A.J.G. That he was still what he had been publicly as a gross fornicator.

H.D.T. So that discernment would be required, for where there is repentance is there not remission?

A.J.G. I think it is important to see that in John 20 the Lord is reposing confidence in the saints to act rightly in His own spirit, and while His spirit was always a spirit of grace, that is to say grace was never absent,

• yet it was always a spirit also of faithful­ness to God, as we see in John 2 where the zeal of God’s house devoured Him.

• So that all that enters into the dealing with these matters and involves that the element of spirituality is there.

S.McC. The question would enter into this matter of 1 Corinthians 5 as to whether if there had been an expression of repentance the sin would not have been dealt with as the apostle had in mind it should be dealt with, for there is no hint at all in the chapter as to the saints looking for repentance; Paul stresses throughout the chapter that the thing was to be dealt with.

R.W. At Barnet was not the scripture in Matthew 12: 35-37 referred to?

A.J.G. You are referring to, “by thy words thou shalt be justified and by thy words thou shalt be condemned”.

• I think we have to be careful not to set off one scripture unduly against another, or anything of that sort. What has been in mind in stressing the spirit of grace and forgiveness has in the main been lesser matters, if one may speak so.

A.G.B. How far would it be possible to walk with a person who expresses repentance and yet whose name had not been cleared in the public courts.

A.J.G. I think you are really bringing forward rather particular cases which it is hardly for us to deal with in a meeting of this sort. Is that not a matter rather for the discernment and exercises of the local brethren who deal with it at the time?

P.H.H. There used to be an expression used amongst us as to clearing the Lord’s name; it may not be the best expression, but does it not bear upon this matter in a sense, that the sin has a certain effect upon the testimony, the testimony of the Lord,

• and has not the bearing of Scripture left that in the hands of the saints to determine whether such a person as we are talking of, can be forgiven there and then, so to speak, administratively in the assembly, on the frank expression of repentance,

• or whether, even if a certain measure of repentance be expressed the thing should go further, because of its effect on the testimony?

A.J.G. That is what I feel; on the other hand, it seems to me that it is not only a question of an expression of repentance and of sorrow and so on, but of the reality of it, in that the matter is fully judged, so that the person is apart from it.

— So that the types help us in that connec­tion, that is the chapter in Leviticus, chapter 14 would show how the priest would take account of what was going on in the person. I am referring to the way things change in a person, the sore, for instance, that the priest would take account of that, but that is what he has to go by, he has got to go by the facts.

A.J.G. He has to go by the facts, what he discerns. And in the case of the restoration of the leper, at the beginning the priest has to do everything, and then the man has to do something.

— Quite so.

–.W. I was going to say that verbal expression is not always sufficient; we must be sure that in certain offences the person has forsaken the sin, and that may entail enquiry.

• Is it sufficient then that a person should by mere words express repentance, or is it necessary in certain cases that we should be sure that he has forsaken his sin, as it says,
  • “whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall obtain mercy”, Proverbs 28: 13?

A.J.G. That is particularly important, I think, and necessary certainly in matters that involve the public testimony and the name of God;

• when there are lesser matters, particularly matters that are of an individual character, you can afford to be very ready with forgiveness, ready to dispense it, if there is the least acknowledgment of repentance.

J.T.S. Would the movement of the Pharisees and Sadducees to John, in the beginning of Matthew, the assembly gospel, bear on this? I was wondering whether there would be priestly discernment with John, he says “produce therefore fruit worthy of repentance”. Would that at all bear on what we are saying?

A.J.G. I think it does.

S.McC.We had a difficu1t case locally twenty years ago, and Mr. Taylor was written to, and in the wisdom that generally marked him in these matters he referred us back to the case itself, as having the facts;

• he said, “it is for you to determine how far the enemies of the Lord have been caused to blaspheme, whether the thing is deep seated or rooted, whether it is a course”,

• and he especially stressed as to how far the enemies of the Lord had been caused to blaspheme. He said, “that will help you as having the facts, as to whether the case of the brother should be remitted, or whether the sin should be retained”.

A.J.G. I think that is important, and it really all comes back to this, that while we have general principles, yet it is a question of the Lord’s confidence in the saints, and their faithfulness to Him, their faithfulness to God,

• so that the character of the dispensation is not misrepresented, but on the other hand that the holiness of God is not impugned in any way.

— Do you think that that is the point in 2 Corinthians alluded to, that the apostle says that he has confidence in what they had done, he says, “whom ye have forgiven I forgive also”. Had that not been arrived at in Corinth?

A.J.G. It had, that is a very important thing, that what the local assembly determines is to carry all the saints.

T.J.G. I would like to get this conversation clear in my mind; referring to a previous remark, that if a brother had judged himself, what is there to bring to the assembly? Do I gather that in certain cases even though that judgment has been definite by the one concerned, there are certain cases that must be brought to the assembly and dealt with there?

A.J.G. Well, you say “and dealt with there”. That is the whole point, as to what you mean. It must be brought to the assembly in some such cases.

T.J.G. What I mean by “dealt with” is forgiven or otherwise, according to what judgment the Lord may give at that time.

A.J.G. Clearly it must be dealt with as you say.

V.T.S. Does it help to see that in 1 Corinthians 5 that these extreme cases that we are speaking of, that it is not just fornication, but it is “such fornication”; that they are very extreme and unusual cases that call for this withdrawal.

A.J.G. Still there it is, as pattern in regard of cases that involve the public testimony, the name of God in the locality.

G.A.L. And in 2 Corinthians 7: 11, Paul goes into great length referring to what they themselves had done to clear themselves.

A.J.G. That is an important matter, following out what we were saying before, that while evil has to be dealt with, and the evildoer dealt with,

• at the same time the most important matter really is that everyone in the assembly should be searched before God,

• so that in that scripture in 2 Corinthians 7 he does not say a word about the depth of repentance in the offender, he is enlarging on the depth of repentance and self-judgment in the company,
  • as though the whole matter, as faced, had had a very wholesome and sanctifying effect.

I think we should pass on, because the time is going. I suggested reading about the love of Christ for the assembly just in its bearing on the service of God, because it is striking that in the section of the epistle where the apostle has come down to what is practical and testimonial,

• his heart is so full of the thought of Christ and the assembly that when he addresses himself to wives and husbands, he seems obliged to bring it in,

• and in speaking to the husbands he greatly enlarges on it, as having Christ in his heart.
  • He says, “husbands, love your own wives, even as the Christ also loved the assembly, and has delivered himself up for it, in order that he might sanctify it, purifying it by the washing of water by the word, that he might present the assembly to himself glorious, having no spot or wrinkle or any of such things, but that it might be holy and blame­less”.

• I have no doubt that while the full thought of presentation looks on to the future, I believe in the principle of it, it is what the Lord would effect as we are together in assembly, bringing the full import of the word to bear upon us, so that we might be able to take up in our souls the view of the assembly as entirely without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.

E.J.H. So that at any time she is ready for translation?

A.J.G. Yes, and at the same time that at that time, that is to say in assembly, she is ready for the reality of union.

P.H.H. Say a little more please about the washing of water by the word, what it practically involves.

A.J.G. Well, I understand it is not the same word as is employed in feet washing; that is to say it is not exactly just the thought of the washing of the feet or the hands; it is the full thought.

• It is the full thought of bathing, and it is a question of the word, that is to say it is the intelligent bringing home to our minds under the influence of the love of Christ of what the import of His death is, as having dissoci­ated us completely from the old, so that what we are as of Christ’s own order may alone be before our minds as it is before Him, and there is no spot or wrinkle in the work of God.

J.S.E. Is this a suggestion of love’s own service to its object? Is that the way the matter is presented to us here?

A.J.G. Yes, it is, not only love in the past when He delivered Himself up for us, but He did it in order that He might serve the assembly in love, and present it to Himself in love.

— Do I understand that in clearing up any points of difference amongst us the Lord would serve us in this way, in the washing of water by the word?

A.J.G. I think he would.

G.R.C. Is what has been said about love’s service borne out by the fact that the word used for ‘word’ here is the spoken word, it is not ‘logos’, it is the spoken word as though it is the Beloved’s personal service to the assembly?

A.J.G. I think so. As a practical matter when we are in assembly, how are we to reach the idea of union with Christ and enjoy it, if we do not know what it is to be dissociated in our minds from all that is of the old, so that we might be identified in our thoughts completely with what we are as of Christ by God’s work; there is no spot or wrinkle in that.

E.J.H. Is that “thou art all fair my love”.

A.J.G. Quite so.

P.H.H. Would you relate it to the actual service of the Lord at the time, or are you thinking of such things as ministry bearing on the assembly, bearing on the Lord’s supper, and so on?

A.J.G. All that would help, but then I think often in connection, for instance, with the cup, the thanksgiving for the cup, I think often the Lord takes occasion to bring this aspect of His love to bear upon us,

• because the cup specially brings home to us that His love has gone the whole length into death, the blood witnesses to that, and it is by means of His own death that He has set us apart in this way.

P.L. Would the word “forget thine own people and thy father’s house”, that character of ministry, and then “the king will desire thy beauty, for he is thy Lord and worship thou him”. Will that issue in the service?

A.J.G. Exactly, the beauty comes into view.

S.McC. Would an occasion like this bear on it, “the washing of water by the word”, so that our intelligences are affected? It would imply an intelligent understanding on our side, would it not, of love’s service through the word.

A.J.G. That is what I thought, so that it might be effected as you say by ministry or an occasion like this, and it might be effected by a word at the Supper, or it might be effected as the result of the thanksgiving of a brother, helping the saints in our souls to take things on in this intelligent way.

F.C.H. Does it go a little further than John 13; we can have part in following the Lord’s example, but this is distinctive to Himself?

A.J.G. This is what the Lord Himself does; in John 13, the Lord Himself sets the example but in order that we should take it on, and learn to wash one another’s feet, but this is what you might say the Lord in a sense reserves to Himself, that is the point of view.

G.R.C. The washing here is the word used in John 13, where the Lord says “he that is washed all over”. So that the Lord’s service would bring that home to us that what He has effected in His death has completely severed us from the man of sin and shame, so that we can take account of the assembly in its abstract beauty according to God.

A.J.G. That is what I thought, and the pleasure of Christ in it.

P.H.H. Did I understand you to say that the presentation may be brought forward, in the grace of the Spirit, as a foretaste enjoyed in the assembly?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so. How could it be possible for us to take up such language as “thou art all fair, my love, there is no spot in thee”, save as we come under the power of this?

— Is not the wife brought into it, in a natural sense by the Lord, to indicate to us the great thought in His own mind about the assembly, that every husband would be thinking of his wife in view of her coming into things fully and being fully with the truth.

A.J.G. Well, quite so. She is to be fully with her husband, as the assembly is to be fully with Christ.

— Was not that part of the service of our brother that he sought to bring the sisters into everything, the care meeting, and these meetings, that they might be fully with the truth.

A.J.G. Quite so.

P.H.H. And the word ‘present’ emphasises what is being said because it is not just that they might be there, but they are there in glory and dignity; are they not?

A.J.G. They are, and presented to Himself.

W.H.D. And the word ‘own’ here is important, is it not? It is stressed in this section “your own wives”. I think it would guard us especially at the present time on the line of what is preservative in the light of Christ and the assembly, so that it is a very delicate matter spiritually, is it not?

A.J.G. Quite so.

— Is it the thought that the assembly is the Lord’s own, it is as though He is acting that way to us, the assembly.

A.J.G. Quite so. It is to stress the uniqueness of the assembly in His own mind and heart, it is His own.

P.H.H. How far is this on all-fours with the type in Genesis 2?

A.J.G. It is an evident allusion to it, because it says,

• “for we are members of his body” and then it runs on

• “this mystery is great but I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly

  after quoting the very thing that we have in Genesis 2,

• “because of this a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be united to his wife and the two shall be one flesh”.

P.H.H. I was just wondering whether the moral question enters into this, perhaps, more than it does in Genesis.

• I can quite see that the moral question is present in Genesis because Jehovah had said certain things about eating of the tree, but as to the persons concerned they are not viewed as being in the presence of sin,

• whereas do these expressions here “sanctify”, “purify”, “washing” and then “no spot, wrinkle”, and so on, suggest that there Is a moral side to all this?

A.J.G. It is dealing with what is practical connec­ted with ourselves, and so long as we are down here the moral side is always present, and the only way that we can get apart from it is in the power of the Spirit by the fresh appropriation of the death of Christ.

S.McC. Do we not have the two sides in that way very definitely before us,

• “even as the Christ also loved the assembly”,

• it is a definite conception in His mind according to divine purpose,

• but then the moral side comes in involving history in the members? Not exactly in the assembly as an entity, but in the members and their history.

A.J.G. Quite so, and hence it is by the word, that is to say the thing has to be taken up intelligently by ourselves.

S.E.W. Does it indicate that God would have these things expressed in our relations householdly? In these relations it says that God would have them expressed in our persons.

A.J.G. I am sure that is so, and hence while the apostle, as we remarked, is so full of the light of Christ and the assembly that he must bring it in,

• yet in point of fact the Spirit of God is addressing wives and husbands, and expects a practical result in our relations with one another, and our conduct at home, and so on,

• that is to say it is a question of the influence that heavenly things are to have upon ourselves in our conduct and our position in testimony.

S.E.W. We are to be impressed with the greatness and preciousness of what the assembly is to Christ personally.

A.J.G. Quite so. We ought to devote a little time to the question of the conflict, and especially the importance of the armour, the panoply of God, the word used implying a complete equipment, and the importance of seeing that no part of the equip­ment is lacking.

• It says, “for the rest, brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the might of his strength. Put on”, or take it up, have it on, “put on the panoply of God, that ye may be able to stand against the artifices of the devil”,

• and as we go through the items it is quite apparent that the items one by one refer to subjective conditions that we are to pay attention to, and to be watchful, because if any of them is lacking we shall become exposed to the enemy.

S.E.W. I would like to ask if the armour, the panoply, is what is taken on from within, as involving manhood?

A.J.G. Yes, quite so, it is the power we have out­wardly because of what we are inwardly.

G.A.L. Is it important that “the loins girt about with truth” comes first? I was thinking of the things we have had to speak about in 1 Corinthians 5, all those emotions and things are thoroughly judged by the truth so that the person is really held in relation to the truth, morally, as well as spiritually.

A.J.G. Yes, and it is not only “the truth”, but it is “truth”, that is, that we are true in the matter.

P.H.H. Would such exercises as this challenge us as to how we are in the whole matter of the truth; I am thinking of remarks made by beloved J.T. latterly, about the expanse, the great operating room in which God operated, but into which the enemy had penetrated,

• and the challenge then I remember, was how were we in it, were we in it with God or were we in it giving some advantage to the enemy.

• Do you think that the expression here in verse 12,
  • “spiritual power of wickedness in the heavenlies, universal lords of this darkness”, and so on,

• would mean that the enemy has got a great lodgment and therefore nothing short of the whole armour will do for the equipment of the saints against it?

A.J.G. That is what I understand, so that the emphasis is on the panoply of God which is the complete equipment, not leaving any part out.

F.C.H. That is His own armour, is that how you regard it, not just what He has provided for us, but how God Himself has met the foe in Christ, that is what we take on, do you think?

A.J.G. Well, of course, the Lord as Man here certainly set forth truth and righteousness and all these features, but it is a question of subjective features that we are to take on in ourselves.

— Is the allusion really to the whole system of things that the enemy has developed in the profes­sion, that is in mind really, and what an order of things it is, and how powerful it is, “the artifices”, it says, “of the devil”?

A.J.G. Yes, systematised error and that kind of thing.

P.H.H. Even having got into principalities, authorities, and then a whole realm called “this darkness”.

A.J.G. There is truth, or rather the loins girt about with it, and then the breastplate of righteous­ness, which is, of course, a practical matter, and then having our feet shod with the preparation of the glad tidings of peace, the question is what is that, what does that allude to?

— I think there was an expression used by Mr. Taylor of being in an armed state.

A.J.G. Well, that is what is contemplated, and that we really never put it off.

— It is the whole panoply of God.

A.J.G. Yes.

E.J.H. Would it be on the line of “how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of them that bring glad tidings, that publish peace”

• Would you link that with what has been said earlier,
  • “all things that Jesus began both to do and to teach”.

A.J.G. I am sure the spirit of that enters into it, but I have wondered in my own mind whether we might not also connect it with what we have in chapter 2,

• “coming he has preached the glad tidings of peace to you who were afar off, and the glad tidings of peace to those who were nigh”.

• That is as to whether we do not go forward in the spirit of peace, peace toward one another, because we might so easily get overcome if we do not maintain in our own souls the truth of the glad tidings, as setting aside the man that causes differences and disturbance, and so we are to have our feet shod with the prepara­tion of the glad tidings of peace.

T.J.G. Does that also involve that the bent of our lives is in the established fact of the glad tidings, as though the whole result of the cross and the resurrection is looked upon as a “preparation”, something that stands?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so.

W.C. This contemplates the enemy attacking the saints, does it not? Later you get the sword; it is a question of defence here, is it not, against things that might come in among the saints?

A.J.G. Yes, it is very largely a defensive position in order to maintain the ground; we are viewed as having taken heavenly ground and now it is to be maintained.

• It says, “having done all things, to stand”.

S.E.W. The kind of man in the saints that is in the presence of God, that character of man?

A.J.G. We need to keep in the presence of God, of course.Then it says,

• Then it says, “the shield of faith, with which ye will be able to quench all the inflamed darts of the wicked one”, and then “have also the helmet of salvation”,

• and the note there is very striking, that “the word is literally, receive, this is not as active or energetic a word as ‘take’, perhaps there is instruction in this”. I believe there is, as regards the other things we have to be energetic in seeing that we have them on, but the helmet of salvation means that our minds are guarded and in that way we are dependent on receiving.

• I believe that is something that we all need to be helped in, that while the mind has got to be used in the things of God under the control of the Spirit, we are told that we have to receive things.
  • “What hast thou that thou hast not received?”

• that involves that we are dependent and waiting and praying, rather than thinking by our own mental energy that we can compass things, the mind has got to be preserved.

Ques. Is it possible to distinguish between the direct attack on the part of the enemy and difficulties arising amongst ourselves?

A.J.G. It would depend on the character of the attack, I suppose.

• This is a full armour, included in which is the sword of the Spirit which is God’s word, and then the support of the arm our is praying at all seasons, with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching unto this very thing, with all perse­verance and supplication for all the saints.

• There is the prayer and the supplication and the watching unto it, involving watching as to our practical state and anything that interferes with liberty with God,
  • “watching unto this very thing with all perseverance and supplication”.

P.H.H. It says that king Saul put a helmet of bronze upon David’s head, and

• “David girded his sword upon his dress and endeavoured to go, but he said to Saul, I cannot go in these”.

• Does that help in relation to the helmet of salvation and the sword; if there is anything which is not divinely furnished, which may appear to be good – the helmet of bronze might appear to be good, yet as not being tried it will let us down?

A.J.G. Yes, I am sure.

P.H.H. In that sense David had other power.

A.J.G. He kept himself within the limits of what he had proved with God, and that constituted his power.

H.D.T. Would you say a word as to “all seasons”.

A.J.G. “At all seasons”. What is in your mind? Do you mean when things are favourable and when things are difficult, or what?

H.D.T. Sometimes a moment of victory in a certain sense may be more dangerous than a moment of attack. The prophet went out to meet Asa, after a very great victory and said that

• “Jehovah is with you while ye are with him”.

• I wondered whether it meant that the praying at all seasons would mean that the complete invulnerability that the panoply provides is never to be taken off.

A.J.G. Exactly, and that is sustained by this spirit and attitude of prayer at all seasons, not only for ourselves but for all the saints.

W.H.D. Is it not rather remarkable that there is none of this armour for the back?

A.J.G. Well, of course, the attitude of one who is strong in the Lord is that he is facing things, not fleeing from them.

I ventured to suggest the passage in Judges because I believe it has special allusion to the present time, and the character of our danger at the present time, and that is the Philistine element in ourselves,

• because Samson is the last of the judges, and his history deals with the closing phases of the recovery of the truth, and has in view the greatest features of the truth,

• so that when the angel appeared to Samson’s father and mother, Manoah and his wife, he made known that his name was Wonderful, and then “he did wondrously”, and then finally he ascended in the flame from off the altar, and Manoah and his wife looked on.

• It says that twice, and I believe all that is suggestive of the way the truth is presented to us in the gospel of John; we have the Person of Christ, whose name is Wonderful, and then you get how He does wondrously all through the gospel, how He became flesh and dwelt among us, and then how gloriously He enters into death and rises out of it, and then the thought of ascension,
  • “I ascend unto my Father and your Father, to my God and your God”.

• I believe all that is suggested in what was presented to Manoah and his wife, and they became contemplators, they looked on, twice over, it is said, and we arrive at the truth that way, so that I think
  • Samson’s history contemplates the final features of the recovery of the truth, and the highest and most precious features, and then the Spirit of God has greater place in Samson’s history than in that of any of the other judges.

• It says the Spirit of the Lord began to move him and then came upon him; and he did various exploits, referring, I have no doubt, to the recovery of different features of the truth in power, and the bringing of it in in powerful ministry in the Spirit, and
  • we have had that over the last 120 years, and perhaps we may say particularly over the last fifty years, because that is the period that most of us here will know most about, the recovery of every feature of the truth, you might say, in the power of the Spirit,

• but then the final part of Samson’s history raises the question as to the state in which these things are to be held.
  • We find that the Nazariteship that has marked him is surrendered; he surrenders it by his own unfaithful­ness, but it becomes the occasion now for the develop­ment of life, and I believe that

• that is our greatest need at the moment, the development of a power that comes from the revival of spiritual life in its true features,
  • so that it says “the hair of his head began to grow again”.

P.L. Is the great recuperative power of the blessed Spirit in mind?

A.J.G. It is, and then the great power that results from it for the complete overthrow of the Philistine character of things.

H.W. Would you mind saying a little more as to why and how you connect it with John’s ministry?

A.J.G. Just because I think the presentation of One whose Name is Wonderful suggests the Person of Christ as John’s gospel particularly presents it,

• and then the allusion to His doing wondrously; it holds the heart as you contemplate the movements of Christ in John’s gospel, and finishing up with the idea of ascending, and Manoah and his wife looking on, twice that is said, they are contemplators, as John said,
  • “we have contemplated his glory”, and so on.

• I believe it is the highest features of the truth recovered to us in days of recovery on the line of John’s ministry.

G.R.C. Is the Philistine element particularly opposed to what John presents, would you say?

A.J.G. Yes, exactly, because John stresses spiritu­ality, whereas the Philistine element is the effort of the natural mind to compass things without the exercise to take on spirituality.

P.L. And we have the thought of eating

• “out of the eater came forth meat and out of the strong came forth sweetness”

• – is the death of Christ as seen for instance in John 6 connected more with eating, in that sense, than the relief side of the death of Christ; is it not the teaching of divine love in it which is in mind?

A.J.G. Surely, in order to lead us on to spirituality.

G.R.C. I would like some help on the expression in Ephesians in this connection,

• “the spiritual power of wickedness”.

• We speak rightly of spirituality, but does the Philistine element make way for spiritual power of wickedness?

A.J.G. I think it does, of course, the Philistine matter is full blown in the religious systems around us.

G.R.C. I was thinking of the depths of Satan, Scripture speaks of the depths of God and the Spirit unfolding that, but there are the “depths of Satan”. Is that not spiritual wickedness?

A.J.G. Quite so.

P.H.H. And you have the synagogue of Satan mentioned when the Lord is speaking to Philadelphia.

A.J.G. Yes.

P.L. Would that answer to the great system, which is brought down; is there not a concentration of the Philistine lords there. Is that the kind of base of Satan’s operations brought down in testimony?

A.J.G. So that there are two pillars on which the whole system rests, and I venture to think that they are the mind of man and the will of man, those are the two great features that support the whole system around us,

• and the question is how far the mind of man and the will of man, our own will, has any place in us and hinders us.

• Samson came under the power of the Philistines and lost his eyes, he could not see things, but with the recovery of energy in the power of life he brings down the whole thing, the two pillars are completely brought down, but he himself dies, and that really is the secret of the matter.

— From the public side the Philistines have seized Samson.

A.J.G. Exactly, but the danger is that the Philistine element may seize us. The working of our own minds in these things results in our losing our sight, our spiritual sight.

W.C. Does not the fact that Samson says, “let me die with the Philistines” remind us that we shall have the Philistine with us to the end to battle with?

A.J.G. I think so, and that the only way to over­come him is in the complete acceptance of death. It is that that really makes room for the Spirit. ­

J.H. How destructive are the two pillars, the mind of man and the will of man as operating in the things of God, as over against the assembly of the living God, which is the pillar and base of the truth; the truth will go through in the assembly in spite of all the Philistine elements that arise.

A.J.G. So that all this is the outcome in Samson of the hair of his head growing again, the evidence of life, life, of course, in the Spirit.

P.L. Does his asking to be loosed from the lad mean that the last vestige of human support as such is repudiated in the energy of the Spirit’s power?

A.J.G. Quite so.