Mailbox: MNO: Nov. 1998 – present

• My attention was drawn to it through a link posted on our forum to the page
  
  http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/xmas/celeb.htm
  which I found helpful and challenging (we have never celebrated Christmas, but others do … or did!).

  There's a huge amount of other stuff there, including one reference to JND, but I wondered if you knew anything about them before I delve any further.

I've remembered the area of contention I was particularly surprised to find documented in detail, which is the place of women.

• I don't know what it is like in your part of the world but the government here is just getting silly with its discrimination laws at the moment. Even most Christians seem to think that biblical teaching is no longer relevant – ironically the Roman Catholics seem to be the most vocal in supporting scripture!

• The latest proposed new law is about adoptions, the government want to stop us distinguishing between gay and heterosexual couples when placing children. Catholic adoption agencies have threatened to shut down if it goes ahead, but the government appears undeterred.

• Just as worrying is the level of public support this seems to be receiving – yet those who claim to promote tolerance etc. seem unable to see that it is they who are the most intolerant of all!

• People are happy to promote Christian values of love peace etc. in what is now a very multi-ethnic and multicultural society, but go into self-denial the moment there is any mention of Christianity itself, while embracing any other religion with open arms. It is clear this is all an unfettered attack upon those who seek to be true to God's word.

Moving on to more positive things:-

I have been studying the changes made in the hymn books in more detail, and drawing up myself a comparison chart (back to 1932, unless I can obtain earlier editions!)

• The letter from Robert Stott in the Hymns History Part 1 refers to some "tranches" [changes ?] of hymns in the letter he was replying to, do you have the actual numbers so that I can see what he is referring to in his reply?

• Also, you mentioned JTJr's name being in the 1962 hymn book, the only reference I can find is in the authors, is that what you meant? I hadn't realised his hymn (and his son's) were included in the 1951 book already.

• Incidentally I have also obtained a copy of the 2001 New Zealand book on loan and am going through that. They have also reverted to original wordings in a few cases, and made some changes of their own, as well as introducing quite a few "new" hymns. My own view is it is quite a good selection but is let down by not having most of the improvements made in 1962, and by the poor layout and a very large amount of printing mistakes.

On the Hymn book page you have the prefaces from the 1932/54/65/79 tune books, but there is no mention of Melodies and Chants other than the brief reference in the 1932 preface.

• I have a copy of the second enlarged edition of this book, so please say if you are in need of more information – although the preface is very brief.

One comment on the site layout – some aspects took a bit of getting used to but are growing on me now – but one thing that still bugs me a bit is the way topics are arranged on pages.

• Often one topic will be split arbitrarily across two or more pages, and in other cases unrelated topics are grouped together on the same page. Similarly the mailbox is split into about 10 letter groups but some are then subdivided!

• I can only guess this to get a more uniform page size but I would personally find it easier to navigate if there were always one page per topic, except perhaps in one or two cases of extremely large topics, such as the hymn book pages. Although even then if all the hymns' words were on one page it would enable visitors to use their search facilities!

• Anyway this is not submitted as a criticism, but a suggestion for possible improvement should time allow.

A few more typos [not included here].

I trust and pray that your health will be preserved and be able to maintain your involvement in the site.

With love in Him, Robert.

To: Robert Munster
Sat, 21 Jul 2007

Dear Robert,
Apologies not required! I know how difficult it is to keep up with correspondence. But I am certainly glad to hear from you again and note your various lines of investigation.

I haven't seen Ian McDowell's history but have corresponded with him. Most histories, even those we might consider the best, are flawed at some point.

I checked the matter you refer to in Neatby but am unable to shed any light on it. Without confirmation or a source it is somewhat suspect as Neatby is quite partisan.

Yes the details of the 1950-60's is certainly depressing and humbling.

As to THR, I recall hearing or reading – perhaps even in my correspondence files – that THR's hymns were excluded because he was said to, and possibly did, oppose or at least criticize JT at one point.

• If I locate the statement I may add it to his biography. I may have heard it from Robert Stott but my memory fails at this point.

Peebs.net, I hear from another source, intends in the future to expose all that they consider to be errors in the various ministries as featured on 'My Brethren'.

No, I don't know anything about 'Biblical Discernment Ministries' but have now glanced at their site.

• The extensive article on 'Christmas' seems fair, but I came to the conclusion that observing it was wrong as a new believer of 16-17 years of age with only about 1% of the details they have assembled.

The public decline from once widely held Christian and scriptural values to which you refer seems to be happening all over the western world. Things may not have declined as far here in Canada as in the UK but are not far behind.

As to the hymns, sorry, I don't have any further information on what RS was referring to. And, yes, I was referring to JTJr's name in the 1962 index.

• I'd be glad to add the preface to Melodies and Chants if you could send it. All details are valuable.

• I did a 'Comparative Index of Revisions 1881-1973 some years ago. It was originally in WordPerfect but I can send you a copy in Word if you are interested. It was originally set up for 2 pages on a letter size (8 1/2 x 11) sheet to print as a booklet but is quite legible. I had hoped to add it to MB but it would require a great deal of work.

As to the site layout, if I had known in 1998 that it would continue and grow would have done some things quite differently. But once on a course it is very hard to make major changes.

• The size of page was kept to 100-150 kb for faster loading with dial-up, as most then had it and I still do.Whether all the hymns would make too large a page, I'm not sure.

• I have a DOS program, which works on XP, done by a brother here which allows searching in various ways. But it is in 9 files to allow for speed.

Thanks for all the work on the typos – greatly appreciated – which I have now changed.

Hope to hear from you again,

In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

To: Robert Munster
Tue, 24 Jul 2007

Thanks for your replies and further information.

Ian McDowell's book was online on another site (scanned with permission if I recall correctly) but has now gone. However I did download it, and have attached the file to this message.

• The same site also had a "flow chart" similar to, but more detailed than, the one in this book – and I have now drawn up an even more detailed one of my own, to help understand how different groups are related to one another. I could send either of these if you are interested.

The other histories certainly give a different slant on things – I should think it is impossible, given human nature, to give a completely unbiased account!

• I think one would have to admit that the administrative procedures followed were not always up to scratch, in particular with London (Park Street) exerting undue influence – but I would think that is secondary to any issues of actual truth that may be at stake.

Another potential area of controversy is what we may have to say about other brethren! I trust most would be willing to take criticisms with grace, whether or not they were founded,

• but those in the Jim system could very well feel moved to take vindictive legal action – indeed didn't one or two sites get shut down because of this?

• My mother always said I needed to learn all the hymns in the book in case "they" took the book away. Thankfully this has not happened, as the only one I ever memorised is number 7!

• Retrospectively claimed copyright would certainly be a hindrance to producing a new edition, which is presumably why the New Zealand book is not sold, as such.

Your comparative index of hymns would be of interest. I thought you might have one, but decided that the exercise of producing my own would be worthwhile in its own right.

• As has been remarked we need to be familiar with the book's contents for it to be fully serviceable, and I feel keenly my own deficiency in this respect

• – I did a little exercise about 15 years ago and over a year (I think it was) we used barely half the numbers in the book, while some hymns were given out dozens of times.

• However, I don't presently have copies of the 1904 or 1881 (or 1856!) books – my brother is keeping an eye on the second hand books section in the Bromley meeting room – so the detail of changes made in 1932 especially would be of interest.

As I said the information in 'Melodies & Chants' about itself is very parsimonious. There is no mention of who compiled it (the 1932 book indicates it was Dr. T. Willey) or even when it was published, although it was evidently sometime between 1881 and 1904, as the 1881 hymn book was current.

This is the second edition, and the extra tunes have simply been added at the end. The original volume had 276 tunes and this was enlarged to 390, mysteriously including a few additional metres!

• Maybe the first edition was in fact prior to 1881? The number of chants is notable, at 18 (all in the first part), compared to just 6 in 1932, and just one that we use now, and that very occasionally.

The balance of the information re 'Melodies and Chants' is in History: Hymn Book 1: Tune Books; Melodies and Chants

I might also mention that I have compiled a database listing all tunes I know to be in use among us. Most are from various editions of the Tune Book, although a fair few are from other sources and there are some composed by brethren which were not published.

• There are a few tunes which I have not identified, although with a bit of help from, amongst others, Fanny Broadbridge (Miss F. R. Jones in the books). I have got this down to around a dozen now.

• It would be nice to get these all set up as MIDI files – your site and http://www.hidwithhim.net would give a good head start – but having tried editing/creating a few of my own it does appear to be fairly time consuming.

• I am not too sure what the copyright position would be, either? If I get time I might go through checking the ones you have done – I did notice a couple of mistakes earlier.

I would love to be able to offer assistance with the site but I really don't think I would be able to devote the necessary amount of time. Unfortunately, such are the pressures of modern life, especially as I spend around 3 hours a day commuting. Also, we do not have internet access at home, which could make things a bit awkward.

You may know that Daniel Soukoreff and his family are coming to London this weekend, if the Lord will, and we are very much looking forward to their time with us. They are staying with David & Naomi Burr. We have fellowship meetings arranged locally, with our brother Ken Hollands to give a lead.

With love, Robert.

To: Robert Munster
Wed, 25 Jul 2007

Dear Robert,
Thanks for the info on 'Melodies and Chants' which will be added to MB, and for Ian McDowell's history. Yes, I would be very interested to see your "flow chart".

Your comments on histories is right on. Compare my History: Introduction for my thoughts.

• Yes, both Dick Wyman's and Daniel Little's web sites were shut down by "vindictive legal action", sadly always a possibility.

I'm attaching my comparative index of hymns in 'MS Word' format and hope it is intelligible and useful.

• I saw an 1856 hymn book in a used book store back around 1950 but – such were the days – I could not afford the 25 cents to buy it. Some weeks later when I could it was gone!!

The database of tune would be interesting. As you say, converting tunes to computer form is tedious. Those on MB were done perhaps 10 years ago on a now defunct dos software.

• Jeff converted some but this work has had to wait for sufficient time. In any case some tunes are not easily recognizable.

I didn't expect that you personally would be able to help with the site but appreciate that you even considered it. Three hours daily commuting would be daunting.

• Please pray for and with us as my contributions cannot continue indefinitely.

I hadn't heard that Daniel and his family were to be in London. I'm sure you will enjoy meeting them and I will look forward to hearing from him on his return.

Keep in touch. In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: Robert Munster
Mon, 30 Jul 2007

Thanks. I have a few comments to incorporate into the flow chart, and will then send it across. Would Word (95) or PDF be preferable? My tunes list is in Access 95 format but I think I can do an Excel export.

Thanks for the hymns comparison chart. The formatting has gone a bit awry but is readable.

I expect there are still some 1856 hymn books around but those who have them are likely to want to hold onto them! The British Library (http://www.bl.uk) appears to have a copy (also 1881/1903 etc.), but I have never used their services so do not know the procedures for accessing material.

• Incidentally, nos 260 and 466 were both in the appendix in the 1932 tune book, but I suppose that is out of scope? In compiling my index I have also been comparing the hymns word for word and making brief notes of the differences. I am a bit uncertain how best to present this, however.

Daniel and family seem to have enjoyed their visit, and we enjoyed some very positive ministry. The children particularly enjoyed the singing, as well as the company of the younger generation here.

• David Shepherd also came down from Bedford yesterday afternoon –they left the Renton group over the same issue.

• The family are now embarking on a fairly substantial tour although, if I understood right, Daniel and Jacob are returning home this week.

Love, Robert.

To: Robert Munster
Tue, 31 Jul 2007

Dear Robert,

Thanks for news of Daniel and family.

The flow chart might be best in Word (or PDF if no trouble), the tune list in Excel. Will see when they arrive. Thanks for the effort.

In Him, Gordon.

From: Robert Munster
Mon, 13 Aug 2007

Sorry for the slight delay, just wanted to get both files right up to date!

The flow chart is attached as a PDF document. Sending the original Word file might result in some graphics objects becoming misaligned.

• I don't think this should be circulated too widely as it could easily be abused, but it is helpful for seeing where different groups stand in relation to one another and so forth, so I don't mind this being passed on to anyone who wishes to use it in this way.

• The main sources are the histories mentioned at the top (plus various additional snippets from MB), although Ian McKay's version was helpful as was one done a few years ago by a brother here (Eddie Holland from Hampton, now with Christ). If you can fill in any more detail or correct anything I'd be grateful. The arrangement from left to right is deliberate!

• The biggest gap in the information I have is regarding the "Tunbridge Wells" group (which I understand became very large indeed in the US). I gather Noel may have more info on this group, but have not seen that book; all the info here (prior to 1992) is from the Eddie Holland chart.

• The link-up of some TW meetings with the Aberdeen-Rentons is particularly surprising given the huge difference in position doctrinally. I wondered if there might have been some confusion with the "other Renton", but I have heard this from a couple of sources so it seems to be correct. Neither was sure which particular group was involved though, could be one of the earlier "splinter groups" rather than the main group as shown.

The tunes index is also attached. I was initially only going to send the sections relevant to the Little Flock book, but thought I might as well send the whole lot. The database is designed primarily for my own use so a bit of explanation is given on the second tab of the workbook.

On another subject, I was always brought up that television was "banned" by the brethren (as featured on MB), and I think this is generally complied with. However I was wondering what the background to this was, did it come up in ministry?

• I have no difficulty as to it personally (1 John 2: 15 for a start); indeed I have never understood why any believer would want one.

• However, I am not quite so sure about making blanket rules about such things or making it a test of fellowship. What is your view?

I found a few more typos, in 'Ministry: E Dennet: Hindrances to Fellowship'. [They have now been corrected and do not appear here.]

Incidentally I wondered if a separate 'Doctrine: Separation' page might be worthwhile. This could perhaps be a re-jig of the Unequal Yoke page, but this has a more specialised aspect at the moment (re: unions/associations/partnerships).

• (Incidentally GRC's exposition of 2 Timothy 2 really is superb!)

• There are various other items scattered around that would be relevant – the above being particularly helpful as regards ecclesiastical position.

• One aspect I hadn't really appreciated until it was mentioned in a word recently is the way terms such "the sanctified" appear all through the New Testament, almost as if it were taken for granted, so we don't have to rely solely on the two scriptures that deal with the subject directly. There is so much around us in the world today that this is always a very testing topic.

With love, Robert.

To: Robert Munster
Sat, 18 Aug 2007

Dear Robert,
Thanks for the 'Chart of Shame' and the Tunes database, both of which must have entailed many hours of research and work. Congratulations on work well done!

• The Tunes db may prove useful in the future if we ever find the necessary time to add to the few tunes now on MB.

• The Chart will take a little time to digest. Right now I have no suggestions.

As to TW and Noel's history, I gave my copy of Noel to Jeff a few years ago, with other books, in preparation for our move to retirement living. There may not be much further relevant information as TW apparently does not believe in reconciliation of groups and have had few divisions.

• As to the "link-up" with 'Renton', it is definitely with the main 'Renton' group. I know this from my contact, Noel Brien. I forget the details but believe some of the TW's were introduced to FER's ministry and helped by it. At least 2 TW meetings, or some from them, moved including Denton, Texas, and one in one of the north-western states.

Many thanks for the proof-reading. typos now corrected!

It is possible that a new 'Doctrine: Separation' page might be useful. I will look at it and any sugestions as to content etc. that you care to make.

• I prefer not to move any items from their current positions as this might affect links to them on other pages.

You ask about the background to the 'banning' of television among the brethren. To the best of my knowledge this is an outgrowth of the earlier, and still current, ban on radios.

The balance of this letter is in Guests: My Stand 6: Banning of Television.

In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: Robert Munster
Thu, 25 Oct 2007

Thank you for your reply. The term "Chart of Shame" was thought up by another brother here, and I thought it quite appropriate! I have attached the latest version, to which I have added an introductory page to make things clearer.

I was led to believe the TW/Renton link-up was on a larger scale than your message implies, but I had suspected it was individual meetings rather than a whole scale reconciliation. Either way, it is good to hear of brethren being receptive to FER!

Thanks for your background information and comments on the television, including the other correspondEnt – which pretty much accords with what I had thought, but the scripture references are confirming.

• The reference to the flute-players in Matthew 9:23-25 was interesting – but could equally be applied to lots of other things! Of course, the comments about radio do apply to a far greater extent to television.

• Even in the world there is a considerable degree of recognition of the damage that TV does, especially to impressionable young people. I experience it in the canteen at work and even something "harmless" like the news fills your mind in a way that a newspaper, for instance, does not.

• Also, with written material you get a chance to stop and think about things and decide whether you agree or not.

I have found and borrowed another edition of 'Melodies and Chants'. It has blue covers and states that it is for the 1903 edition of the hymn book, although the tune content is identical to the one I have.

• I have now studied them both in some detail – your hymn index came in useful for this as well.

• The major difference is that my edition refers throughout to the 1881 hymn book (including the covers, which are maroon). I am somewhat puzzled by this; it may have been some sort of temporary edition, but I can't see why such a thing would be produced.

• The most likely explanation seems to be that my copy was produced LATER, by some brethren who had separated and decided to revert to the 1881 hymn book.

• Do you know anything about the allegiances of the publisher, G Morrish? I'm thinking Glanton possibly. Or, there may be some connection with your earlier comments as to THR.

• The layout of the blue edition seems more logical, and is as follows. Note the extra information now furnished with regard to dates, superseding most of my previous comments. I have given more complete information than previously.

The details appear in History: Hymns 1: Melodies and Chants.

Your hymn book subject index could be useful – I have wondered about producing one myself, although was always a bit wary of doing so as the Spirit's guidance should always be sought, and many hymns are suitable for use at various occasions.

Love, Robert.

To: Robert Munster
Sat, 27 Oct 2007

Dear Robert,
Thanks for your reply including your updated "Chart" and extensive details on the later edition of 'Melodies and Chants' – now included in the History: Hymn page.

As to G. Morrish publishers, as far as I know, they were always connected with brethren of our tradition, but may have published items by others.

We had a pleasant visit with Ken and Hazel Hollands on October 15. They mentioned meeting you in London recently. Attached is a photo of Betty and me which Ken took.

I would certainly be interested in any further work you do on the history or the hymns. I am trying to put my 'Comparative Index of Revisions' in a format for posting, but it is a long tedious job.

In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: Robert Munster
Wed, 31, Oct 2007

Ken mentioned that he was planning to visit, I'm glad you had an enjoyable time with him.

I think my "research" on the history has just about run its course, although there is of course plenty of follow up reading to do!

As to the hymns I would quite like to do a full history of each one (although without a copy of 1856 or 1903 editions I cannot do anything with those).

• I have more or less completed laying out the history in terms of numbers, and including brief notes of changes, for 1932/1951/1962/1973 and the NZ book, which I have written into an Excel spreadsheet.

• After that I will probably do a 1881/1932 comparison. I could probably write a macro to export the Excel data into a web format, if it helps, but I am not sure how best to present it, especially as I'd like to include full details of the changes made.

• Perhaps it could be a table similar to the one you sent me with links to generate pop-up windows with the details where there have been changes. Either way, it is still some way from completion and with other projects taking priority at the moment it could be a year or two.

Robert.

From: Robert Munster
Wed, 27 Feb 2008

Although we have most of the printed ministry at home, your additions always provide useful hints as to things to read up!

Robert.

From: Robert Munster
Wed, 26 Mar 2008

We came across an odd comment in the 1953 London meetings with AJG, in the first reading:

• "J.McD. Would that mean that the expression, "The God of our Lord Jesus Christ" cannot be connected exclusively with the Father; would we not have to have in our minds in that the Son and the Spirit?"

• The comment seems a bit odd to me, and assuming this is a reference to Ephesians 1:17 appears plainly wrong as it specifically refers to the Father there. I thought maybe the suggestion was that "Father of glory" has the sense of "Author of glory" rather than being a reference to the Lord's Father, but that still doesn't make sense as the Lord Jesus Christ is God so James McDonald's comment would mean Jesus was his own God, whatever that would mean. I'm surprised AJG accepted the comment, although later on the verse is discussed in a way that makes sense to me, and again AJG agrees, so perhaps he was just caught out the first time!

• Am I missing something as to the first comment -- do you have any thoughts?

I have also attached my hymns database. I have now finished the comparison of all editions 1932-2001, which was a profitable exercise in itself. The next step I am proposing is to put in all the words with variations on the "full words" tab. It is fairly straightforward to copy the hymns text in from your site, and I then just need to add in any changes manually.

• On the "summary" tab, there is a little macro that allows you to either display any version or compare one version with another. The output is saved as an HTML file C:\HymnDisplay.htm, which can be opened in IE etc. At the moment this works only for hymns 1, 2 and 207/209/545/609 (the latter having the most complex history of any in the book!). I need to give a little more thought to certain technical issues, such as how to handle cases where the same verse of an original hymn is under two different numbers in the 1973 or 2001 books. You may need to adjust your security settings if you haven't used Excel macros before.

• After that I intend to add and compare the hymns from the 1881 edition, which I found on the web. Mabel Dobney, who is a neighbour of ours (and also an acquaintance of LJT) thinks she has an 1856 hymn book, although she has not as yet got round to retrieving it from the loft! That would just leave the 1903 edition to track down (I can add the numbers from your file).

Love, Robert.

To: Robert Munster
Thu, 27 Mar 2008

Dear Robert,
The remark of J.McD. and the reply do seem odd. Could you give me the exact quotation for the later discussion --I can't seem to locate it -- and some time to think about it all. Certainly interesting!

The database must have been a lot of work. It seems to come up OK in Quattro Pro, but will take a little time to absorb, as I haven't used spread sheets for nearly 15 years! Thanks very much. Will respond later.

In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: Robert Munster
Fri, 28 Mar 2008

Thanks. If you do a search on "The God of our Lord Jesus Christ" you will find several further references, it's about two thirds of the way down.

Sorry, I'd assumed you had Excel -- I don't know if the macros will work in QP. The "2001" book refers to the New Zealand revision. I included it as it is based on the LF book and produced by brethren of the same tradition as us, and there is some interest in other groups in using it, since it has more or less everything in the 1951/62/73 books. I'd be quite happy to use it -- especially as it has several hymns I'd like to have that aren't in the 1973 book -- although it is rather "untidy," and I'm afraid the inclusion of hymns from "other sources" would go down rather too well with some!

Robert.

To: Robert Munster
Mon, 7 Apr 2008

Dear Robert,
Sorry for delay replying. I had forgotten about the 2001 NZ hymn book -- and was not at all impressed with the various additions or their sources. It seemed an unnecessary effort with the availability of the 1973 book.

Regarding the 1973 London meetings, I am not sure whether J.McD. is the James Macdonald of Manchester. See History: The Manchester Connection.

As to the remark: "J.McD. Would that mean that the expression, "The God of our Lord Jesus Christ" cannot be connected exclusively with the Father; would we not have to have in our minds in that the Son and the Spirit?" --

• I have discussed this with Andrew Robertson and he concurs with my, and your, impression that this is indeed an "odd" comment, and not only odd but confusing. It may be a product of those times when the truth as to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit was being emphasized, but that is no excuse.

• The Lord's own words in John 20: 17, "... my Father and your Father … my God and your God …" are conclusive that it is the Father that is in mind when both our Lord and God are referred to together.

• Whatever we may rightly understand as to the 'Trinity' does not affect such statements where the Lord Jesus is viewed in His Manhood in relation to God, His Father. All must be viewed in its context, both in the Scriptures and in the position of our Lord as come into Manhood.

I hope this does not confuse the issue any more!

Always glad to hear from you.

Affectionately in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: Robert Munster
Mon, 7 Apr 2008

Thank you for your thoughts on the 1953 meetings -- the reference in John is helpful.

• Were you questioning my assumption that J.McD. was James McDonald of Manchester or suggesting it was? Obviously, I have no info either way, although when two brothers have the same initials they normally distinguish them in some way. Not that it matters really.

I agree with your comments about the 2001 book, and also with your comments as to the 1973 book on the site.

• Hymn books do seem to be a particular source of contention, with so many unwilling to use something produced by a different group from themselves!

I understand the NZ brethren, and some others, dislike the 1973 as it is based on the "naughty" 1962 book.

• Personally I do not see the problem, as most of what was done in 1962 was good, and particularly in terms of page layouts etc. it made the most sense to build on that, as well as the hymn numbering being what most would be familiar with.

I think one of the serious issues is that there are quite a few hymns in the 1962 book that were removed in 1973 to make way for others from earlier editions, perhaps most notably PL's hymn "Blest Victor Thou …"

• Your supplement puts most of these back (although there are two or three others that I feel would be useful) -- if it were up to me I would incorporate it, but I have no influence over KBT and doubt if they have any plans to do so (never mind any potential copyright issues). Using the 2001 book, which some have suggested, would largely get round these issues, but, if I may say, "I would have done things differently!"

I am making good progress with inputting the full text of the hymns into my Excel file. I am finding a number of typos in your site in the process, and will send the list across when complete!

• Some of the hymns are a bit more complicated than expected, for example certain verses being swapped between JND's hymns 25/26/81 (were these originally one, I wonder).

With love again, Robert.

From: Robert Munster
Tue, 19 August 2008

Many thanks for this, and the previous copy [not posted] -- I have had a quick look, but I am up to my eyes in work at the moment so will have to defer studying in closer detail! However, it looks interesting.

The hymns project is coming on well -- I am almost in a position to send the complete list of typos from your hymn book pages! All text for the 1973 book is in, and I am now working back through the earlier editions in reverse order. It's so much data that I have actually run out of rows in Excel and had to go onto a second sheet!

• have obtained my own copy of the 1903 book, which leaves just the 1856 edition, which I have loaned from the Evangelical Library in London. It seems 1932 was easily the most far-reaching revision, with 1951 following, with only quite a small proportion of the hymns from 1903 surviving both revisions, mostly being replaced by new compositions.

Hope you are both keeping well.

With love in our Lord, Robert.

From: Robert Munster
Thu, 05 February 2009

As far as Park Street room is concerned, as far as I can ascertain this has now been demolished and replaced by a housing estate -- there is certainly nothing resembling a meeting room visible on satellite images of the area.

• Although it is a pity in many ways, a room capable of accommodating 1500 was hardly appropriate for a company of under 100, and even for a fellowship meeting the maximum likely these days would be about 250.

• (Of course, even that is quite a large company by the standards most of us are used to, what with all the division and scattering that has come in!)

• I do just about remember the room, though I was only 4 the last time I was there.

With love, Robert.

From: Robert Munster
Tue, 05 May 2009

[List of typos.]

Trust all is well. Love in our Lord Jesus. Robert.

To: Robert Munster
Thu, 07 May 2009

Dear Robert,
Thanks again for your sharp eyes!! Even little typos detract the reader and your help is really appreciated

Also of interest is that you are looking through MB. Hope it encourages you.

Affectionately in our Lord Jesus. Gordon.

From: Robert Munster - Re: Frances Kenney
Tue, 26 May 2009

I do not have any information or personally know anyone who would. All I can add is that the 'Renton' company still have meetings in the area, in Malvern and Worcester.

• I do not have any contact details, but you may be able to find them out from somebody else; some names are G John Richards in Malvern and Ben Eastwood in Worcester.

• The nearest meeting we have is Defford, near Pershore; Andrew Spiers is there, and I have copied him on this: andrewatthepaddocATtiscali.co.uk .

I have to say I am intrigued as to this "document" FER is suppose to have signed!

Love, Robert.

To: Robert Munster
Tue, 26 May 2009

Thanks for reply. I will be sending further information but no need to reply. Yes, the FER signature is intriguing.
Affectionately in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: Robert Munster
Wed, 4 Nov 2009

Hello again, how are you these days?

Just been reading CWC address on Cleaving -- a very relevant address for the present day. Spotted a few typos. [List of typos.]

With love in Him. Robert.

To: Robert Munster
Wed, 4 Nov 2009

Dear Robert,
Many thanks for the corrections!!! You may care to know the details. The mimeographed pamphlet was un-scannable and as noted, poorly edited. I had to re-type, 2 fingers! I used Ms Word which caught many of my typos, duplicates etc., but either missed some or I didn't notice. These are not excuses just feel you deserve an expanation! -- besides all that I'll be 80 on Nov. 11 -- so go figure ;)

I really do appreciate your help and service -- most valuable -- as we don't want an unprofessional look on MB. Perhaps I should send articles to you for checking first ;)

We are both reasonably well but I now use a power chair to get around the retirement home.

Always good to hear from you -- and to know you are keeping up with our new entries.

With love in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: Robert Munster
Wed, 4 Nov 2009

As I said before, it sounds as if this is not widely available, so I will probably ask some others what they think about getting it re-published, assuming you see no objection? Obviously not all will have internet access and many of those that do may not come across the article.

I don't mind proof reading articles but I don't read everything and I may not always have time for proof reading. But feel free to send anything across if you want to -- I would let you know if I'm too busy to do anything straight away.

Love, Robert.

To: Robert Munster
Thu, 5 Nov 2009

Dear Robert,
We have no objection to you re-publishing, and I am attaching an MS Word document -- with your corrections -- for your use if you proceed. It still needs further editing for grammar, long sentences etc. You should fell free to do this if you wish. Let us know if you go ahead.

Thank you for being ready to proof read. This would normally only be necessary on typed documents such as Cleaving. We mostly copy from scanned copies already on disc.

L0ve in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: Robert Munster
Fri, 6 Nov 2009

Thank you for the original document. I have sent it to Marcus Chapman to see what he thinks.

This reminds me to mention that Marcus and I are hoping to publish some present day ministry that we have enjoyed in the UK -- I am attaching our first issue, which has recently been distributed. We would be glad to make it available to any interested persons.

Love, Robert.

To: Robert Munster
Sat, 7 Nov 2009

Dear Robert,
Thanks for the PDF of Meetings with Ken Hollands. We enjoyed a visit wittj Ken and Hazel in October 2007.

You have done a good job on the notes. I believe my friend Gene McLeod -- grayfox@globalserve.net -- would appreciate a copy.

In Him, Gordon.

… Incidentally, news of Laurie Twinam has just been received by my mother via Mabel Dobney, which I thought I should pass on in case it is not known. I was just on the computer doing the checking when she relayed it to me, so was well placed to make some notes!

Apparently he has had a bad knee since 23 years ago, and recently went into hospital to have it operated on. However, something happened under the anaesthetic, this condition being exacerbated by his asthma. Antibiotics "nearly killed him".

• Now he has prostate trouble -- the hospital says he is too poorly for them to operate, so they have sent him home with a catheter.

With love in Him, Robert.

Subject: Accredited ministry

Hello again,
The term "accredited ministry" was used in a meeting recently, and I have been wondering what might be understood by it. I get the impression the term may have been used in a rather presumptuous kind of way in the system days, but it seems to have gone back to JT's time, at least.

Clearly all true ministry is given by the Lord in the power of the Spirit and carries the authority of Scripture - much that passes for ministry in Christendom generally does not pass these criteria, and it is helpful to distinguish.

But "accredition" seems to suggest something further. Can you shed any light on this? Is it a scriptural thought?

With love in the Lord, Robert.

To: Robert Munster 29 September 2013

Dear Robert,
I cannot recall coming across the term in printed ministry – but you raise an interesting question and make some good observations.

My Concise Oxford Dictionary defines “accredited” as “officially recognized”. This raises the question as to who, other than God, can officially recognize any ministry. My answer: no one, no group, no publisher!!! It is either an error in the use of English or a deliberate misuse of “accredited”.

I do know that the term “authoritative”, which may seem similar, has been used – and also misused – of ministry over the years. Here is part of an earlier answer which may be of interest:

See: My Stand 1: Authoritative Ministry: 3 marks of genuine 'authoritative' ministry

For ministry to be called 'authoritative', i.e., trustworthy, reliable, believable and worthy of being followed, I understand that it must be

- based on, and in accord with, the divinely inspired Scriptures,

- ministered in the power of the Holy Spirit,

- by bondmen – subject to the Lord – whose lives are in moral accord with the truth they minister.

Such ministry, and such ministry alone, is 'authoritative'. There has been ministry of that character from the beginning of the revival, from which we have greatly benefited.

I hope this helps and would be glad to hear further if you have comments.

In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: Robert Munster
Mon., Sept. 30, 2013

Subject: RE: Accredited ministry

Indeed, thanks, that is very much in line with what I thought. I assumed that the thought would be that the ministry is accredited by God rather than by any men - it certainly seems reasonable to think that God could accredit ministry which is authoritative. But even if so I am doubtful if we are entitled to speak of it in that way. There are a number of references on MB to the term, and I doubt all are accidental:

https://www.google.co.uk/#psj=1&q=accredited+site:mybrethren.org

Love, Robert.

Dear Robert,
You certainly have done your home work ! I wasn’t aware there were so may uses on MB. Some seem right, others definitely not.

Keep in touch. In our Lord Jesus, Gordon,

From: Robert Munster
Oct. 7, 2013

Thanks. I hadn't studied all the references - I simply searched for "accredited", so many are on other subjects altogether. Looking more closely, interesting to see Mr Gardiner used the term! Incidentally, I spot a typo in the scripture reference at the end of the quotation.

S.McC. Exactly. And there is the other side, as Paul says, "If any one thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment" (1 Corinthians 14: 37). There is what is distinctive in Paul, and his ministry carries authority.

A.H. Would it be right to say that ministry in the power of the Spirit would carry its own credentials, as in 1 Corinthians 14: 25, where it says, "he will do homage to God, reporting that God is indeed amongst you"? D.I. Is the principle of the ministry carrying its own credentials seen in Mark 1, where it says, "They were astonished, for he taught them as having authority, and not as the scribes" (verse 22)?

S.McC. Mark is the ministerial gospel and helps us in that way, but one thing needs to be kept clear in regard to this matter of ministry, and that is the ability to make room for the Spirit. Distinctive commission is another thing.

D.I. Is that the distinction you were making this morning between authority and power? Authority involves a commission, but a brother who has a definite commission should have power in the Spirit.

S.McC. Just so. There have been many ministers in the last fifty years, but one distinctive ministry throughout giving character to the service of God. We are now seeking to arrive at the fulness of that ministry; what the Lord has given through it and in it.

A.J.G. What has accredited that ministry is that it has affected the saints all over the world.

S.McC. That is the point. It bears the evidence of a distinctive commission. Although we do not have apostleship today, as in the Acts, the principle of a distinctive, authoritative commission from Christ remains in such leadership as that of Mr. Darby, Mr. Taylor, and others.

Rem. Would Paul's word to Timothy, "knowing of whom thou hast learned them" (2 Timothy 13: 14), bear on it?

S.McC. That is very important. "Knowing of whom." would help the brethren as to anonymous publications. If an article is published it should bear the name of the author.

This looks a rather interesting reading but I have not got time to read it all now!

Interestingly enough at meetings in Defford (Worcestershire) on Saturday we had the thought first of the Lord as our teacher, then we as learners. We have on the one hand "the truth as it is in Jesus" so that He, and what we see in Him, is the ultimate authority, but then we do have the thought of learning from servants who teach here, as in the reference in Timothy.

Love, Robert.

Karen Musclow

To: Karen Musclow
radianceofjoyAThotmail.com
Harrisburg, PA, USA
Wed, 29 Oct 2003

Dear Karen,
Welcome to 'My Brethren'. I can understand you being confused as to the various groups of 'brethren' – as I myself was as a young man.

• The fact that you "have received no training on such matters" is regrettable.

• Sadly, many in the 'open' connection – even older ones – have little or no knowledge of the history, and sometimes little interest.

• I say this from personal experience having been connected with an 'open' meeting for the first few years after my conversion.

It's refreshing to learn that you are "extremely interested in the history of the brethren" and I'll do whatever I can to help you understand it.

• As to the 'Jims', this refers to a later development since 1959 among some 'exclusives'. For your purpose it can be left aside for the present.

• There is no brief answer as to the origin of 'brethren' and the subsequent history and differences between 'open' and 'exclusive'. Therefore I hope you won't mind me referring you to some reliable articles on MB.

Below is a list of several pages which will give you a basic background in the early history, and a good foundation for any further study you may pursue.

• I'll be happy to answer any particular questions as they may arise.

• It may seem that too many items have been suggested, but each contributes to a well-rounded knowledge.

• In any case, take your time and review as much or little as you like.

• If you have a printer, you may find it convenient to print out each item first. If so, select the 'No Frames' group on the 'Menu' at the foot of the 'Home Page'.

The recommended pages are:

• History: Early Years - Recollections - J. G. Bellett et al

• History: The Last Chapter - Andrew Miller

• History: The First 50 Years - C. H. Mackintosh

• History: Early Contentions for the Faith - G. W. Ware

• Biography: J. N. Darby

• Guests: My Answer 2: Open/Closed

• Doctrine: Fellowship: Are You a Member
  
  and of What? - Geo. Cutting

  Ministry: C. A. Coates - Part 1: Present Conditions
  

  in the Christian Profession.

May the Lord bless you, Karen, as you pursue your interest. I'll be happy to hear from you again during or after your review.

In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

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David Mutton

From: David Mutton
d.muttonATntlworld.com
Bromley, Kent, England
Mon, 19 Jul 2004

See 'Bibles and Books: Stone Publishing Trust'

From: David Mutton
Wed, 25 Aug 2004

Dear Brother,
Harold Munster and I have now selected a number of volumes to send to you. This will include an extra 77 volumes of JT Old series together with AJG and a smattering of the other brothers you mentioned.

• I am looking at the best way (cheapest) to get them to you and will hope to get them packed and despatched next week. I will confirm when they are on the way.

• Including your own, we have had four enquiries for books so we are beginning to get tooled up for a packing station!

I note on the web-site enquiries for fellowship on Tyneside, England.

• We have one brother in fellowship there and there is another brother who has not broken bread since 1970 but, while elderly, very interested in brethren in the area and wider.

• Would it be orderly or wise to contact with these brethren and give the contact addresses – with the agreement of those living there of course?

I note from comments by Gordon that he has little fellowship in Toronto.

• One request we have is from Burlington, Ont. Would he have this contact, 'Greyfox', or should I let him know? Do you have fellowship in your area?

• We are fortunate to have several meetings near us though generally small, we can felowship together.

Your brother in the Lord Jesus, David.

To: David Mutton
Wed, 25 Aug 2004

Dear David,
Great! Thank you for the good news. Please let me know the cost so I can reimburse you as soon as possible.

• One question: is there any possibility you made a list of the volume numbers you will be sending? If not don't worry, I will make it when they arrive. I have some volumes awaiting my 'go ahead' at KBT but I don't know which ones to have them send. But if you haven't, please don't go to any trouble.

I've forwarded your message to Gordon, you should be hearing something from him soon.

Thanks again! Yours in our Lord Jesus.

To: David Mutton
Tue, 31 Aug 2004

Dear David,
Yes, I would be very glad if you could put Richard Fairley in touch wih someone in his area. Please let me know of any results.

'Greyfox' is Gene McLeod. Burlington is about 1 1/2 hours from our home.

• We have had one visit and several telephone chats. He has now stopped attending the 'churches' and is very interested in searching out the truth. I'm sure a note from you would be an encouragement to him.

Jeff and I will be interested to hear of any contacts you have through your listing on MB.

In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

Dear Brother,
I attach an Excel file prepared by Harold Munster – brother of Robert – of the Ministry of Mr. G. R. Cowell and others, much of it published by Mr. Haddad, which has passed through our second hand collection. It may be a valuable resource for those studying GRC's ministry as it gives dates and whereabouts the ministry was given. A Word file distinguishes the different series of volumes distributed.

Our warm greetings in the Lord Jesus, David.

Dear David,
Many thanks for responding to the poem request for Christine Sills. We should have thought of that, too! But I know her heart was warmed and I am sure her mother will be encouraged.

Thanks also for the GRC spreadsheet index. If any of our guests are interested, we can retain a copy to forward from here or refer them to you... Whichever you prefer.

Warmly in Jesus.

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Ronald Myles

From: Ronald and Ruth Myles
R.H.MylesATbtinternet.com
Chichester, Sussex, England

Tue, Mar 27, 2001: This message appeared on another site. We left the brethren many years ago at Horley meeting in Surrey. Some may remember my father AEM, who came out at the same time. I have four sisters Rene Pollock living in Montreal, Morjoie Nunn, Dorothy Railton, Eileen Purdom still living in England. Have many cousins still in the meeting. Would be glad of any recent news of any of my sisters, or their children / grandchildren.

To: Ronald Myles
Fri, 11 May 2001

Dear Ron,
This is in reply to your message [above]. I don't have any recent news but tell you what I do know.

• Before 1970 Betty and I visited Rene and Jim, and they visited us in Toronto, several times, which were very enjoyable. Rene was a very gracious hostess.

• By then their only daughter Joan was married to Richard Emtage of Barbados.

• The last we heard many years ago was that Jim had been put 'out' and Rene was still 'in' but they were still living together. This may not be news but I pass it on.

Your father and his service and ministry, as you well know, was valued greatly before 1959 and I have tried to indicate this on my web site 'My Brethren'.

• 'My Brethren' attempts to put the history and ministry of brethren in a positive perspective, over against the deplorable situation which developed after 1959.

• AEM had an honoured place among the brethren. I believe it is due to the Lord that the memory of him, and others, should be recorded accurately.

• Some of his ministry is included in the recent issue of three volumes of 'Selected Addresses' by KBT.

As I have for other leading servants, I have attempted a biographical sketch of AEM.

• I would appreciate it if you would help with any additions or corrections. (Brian Cowell helped with the bio of GRC which improved it greatly.)

• I am particularly interested in family information, dates of events, years spent in Montreal and other main places of residence and other personal details.

• Also, if at all possible, I would appreciate a photo to include in his bio and his ministry page.

Yours in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: Ron Myles
Sun, 20 May 2001

Dear Gordon,
Thank you for your message, it was interesting to hear of Rene and Jim. I knew Jim was out never heard if he got back again.

I have a picture of my father, please let me have your address.

My memory is that my father moved to Canada about 1911 and moved back to England about 1925. I remember Barnet well and the hymn book revision.

• Three of my sisters were born in England, Eileen and myself in Montreal.

My father left the EB's about 41 years ago in 1960, at the time he was not in favour with JTJr and did not agree with many of the Scripture interpretations.

• Finally he was in business with me after I left the brethren and refused to resign, so was withdrawn from.

• He was buried in 1971 by a group of brethren meeting in Worthing.

• We now worship at a United Reformed Church in Chichester.

With love in Christ, Ronnie Myles.

To: Ron Myles
Mon, 21 May 2001

Dear Ronnie,
Thanks for your reply and information which I will use. I will certainly appreciate the photo of your father that you have offered. It should be a good addition to MB. My address is …

I'm not sure whether you have visited 'My Brethren' and seen the bio of AEM. It would be a pleasure to add your name to the Guest Book.

Thanks again. I'll let you know when the photo arrives.

Yours in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

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Robert Narboe

To: Robert Narboe
bnarboeATaol.com
Riedenberg 97792, Germany
Wed, 04 Oct 2000

Dear Robert,
Your name has been entered in the Guest Book and I look forward to hearing from you again when you are able to explore MB a little.

• too that some will be ready to write to you as you suggested.

In view of your wife and you breaking bread together, you might be interested in
Studies: The Lord's Supper and the Service of God.

Yours in our Lord Jesus. Gordon.

To: Robert Narboe
Tue, 18 Dec 2001

Dear Robert,
Glad to have you back for another visit. Thanks for your kind words of encouragement.

In the Lord Jesus, Gordon.

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Alan Newble

To: Alan Newble
alanATnewble.co.uk
Ashford, Kent, England
Mon, 19 Jan 2004

Private – but publicise it if you wish.

Sir,
I am constructing a website based on the idea of a 'Hall of Fame' which I have used for Scottish Ministers – before I discovered the Brethren, and was received into Fellowship.

• You can see it at http://www.newble.co.uk/hall/.

• However, the plan is similar to 'My Brethren' and so I plan links to your material, and would welcome links back.

• We will not overlap totally, otherwise there wqould be no point in doing it!

• Mine will be called 'Brethren Writers Hall of Fame' unless you can think of a better title,
  • and will include all writers who have contributed to Dispensational Theology used by brethren, and whose books line their libraries, like Anderson, Bullinger and Jennings to name a few.

• I would like also to use some of your biographical material. I have the book 'Chief Men Among the Brethren' but it is not comprehensive, and excludes some notables, such as Coates.

• Would you object to me using these?

Lastly, you have a wonderful site, and a tremendous resource. May it last out till the Lord returns, and my prayer is that mine will contribute something to God's Glory also.

Alan.

To: Alan Newble
Wed, 22 Jan 2004

Dear Alan,
Thanks for visiting 'My Brethren' and for your kind remarks.

• We have visited your site and commend you on a very attractive and professional production.

As to using some of MB's biographical material on your proposed new site, we appreciate your good intentions

• but our policy, Guests: Policies: Use of Articles Specially Produced for 'My Brethren' explains why we cannot approve such a use.

• Please be assured that there is nothing personal in this.

• – but we are sure that all of the servants whose biographies and ministries are featured on 'My Brethren' would have had strong objections to being included under such a title which appears to glorify man rather than God, as you desire.

With brotherly love in Christ, Gordon.

To: Alan Newble
Wed, 14 Apr 2004

Dear Alan,
In making an internet search on another subject I came upon your new site 'Brethren Writers Hall of Fame', which you indicated you intended to open in an earlier email.

Thank you for several links to MB as follows:

1. "My Brethren" site – lots of very good material here. On Coates, and many others.

2. New site for "My Brethren" with lots of new material.

3. My Brethren – the mainly "Exclusive" brethren site which maintains its reputation for exclusivity by wanting nothing to do with this site because the brethren featured would object to being "famous" – Really? Pity, then, because they are! A very useful site, however – and I hold that fame is very useful, even necessary, for distributing the Word widely in printed form.

As you become more familiar with the ministry of JND, CAC and others, you will discern that they follow the apostles in rejecting any thought of fame.

• 1 Corinthians 4: 6-16; 2 Corinthians 6: 1-10.

It is certainly not our intention to cause offence but we must be true to our convictions and wonder if you missed checking Guests: Policies: Use of Articles Specially Produced for 'My Brethren' to which we referred you.

• That policy makes clear that our concerns are of a different kind altogether, and are based on the manner of life, personal convictions, rejection of various divisions among brethren, and the whole character of the ministry of those brethren featured on MB.

I may be mistaken but, even though we said that we couldn't approve the use of certain material on MB – in particular situations as outlined in our policy –

• it appears that some material at least has been used for your sections on CAC and WT,

• and that your "Alternative Biography" for GVW "including an account of the development of the Concordance" is largely identical to part of MB's biography of GVW.

Although we cannot support the premise of your site, we do respect the genuineness of your exercise as to it.

• We hoped that you would be able to respect ours.

Faithfully in our Lord, Gordon.

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Jeremy Ng

To: Jeremy Ng
an937ATtorfree.net
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Fri, 17 Sep 1999

Our dear Jeremy,
How nice to hear from you. Welcome to "My Brethren". You are our youngest (8 years) guest!

Betty and I enjoyed seeing you again last night and the time we spent talking about the Lord Jesus, and singing no. 187, "I've found a Friend, O such a Friend!"

• It is so simple just to believe in Him and trust Him as your Saviour.

We pray for you and Rachel (5) and your family every day, and look forward to seeing you on the Lord's Day.

With our love in the Lord Jesus, Gordon and Betty.

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Paul and Iris Ng

From: Paul Ng
paulngpkATpacific.net.sg
Singapore
Wed, 27 Oct 1999

Hello Gordon and Betty,
Sorry for the extremely late correspondence. I was so busy since coming back to Singapore.

Iris and myself would like to thank Betty and yourself for your nice hospitality during our short visit at your place.

I have attached a picture taken during that evening.

Thank again and God Bless. Love, Paul & Iris.

Note: In early 2001, Paul and Iris moved to Toronto.

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Tim Nissen

To: Tim Nissen
fhcharityATjuno.com
USA
Wed, 6 Feb 2002

Dear Tim,
I saw your message on Steve's site and thought you might be interested in visiting 'My Brethren'.

• Also, I would be interested to learn your objections to dispensationalism, if you care to share your thoughts.

In the Lord, Gordon.

From: Tim Nissen
Wed, 06 Feb 2002

Hello,
Thank you for your e-mail. As far as I can tell you used to be in fellowship with what is termed by other brethren as Ravens. Where do you go now?

I spent a a period of time (about 5 months) delving into the history of brethren to try and uncover what was the truth about their doctrine …

Anway, regarding dispensationalism I have been writing a lengthy paper …

May the Lord's love and grace be with your spirit, Tim.

To: Tim Nissen
Thu, 07 Feb 2002

Dear Tim, Thanks for your very full reply [3½ pages and too lengthy to reproduce here].

• I would like to make some comments but in view of the many points covered I will have to wait for some time. Right now I don't have the luxury of devoting the time your email deserves.

You will find details as to me on MB on my "Personal" page and elsewhere throughout.

Thanks again and till time is available.

In the Lord, Gordon.

From: Tim Nissen
Thu, 7 Feb 2002

Hello,
Here is that paper that you asked to see. Let me know what you think.

Tim.

To: Tim Nissen
Fri, 08 Feb 2002

Dear Tim,
Thanks for your extensive paper [32 pages and too lengthy to reproduce here] which I have only time to scan. Because of the general demands of MB I will not be able to make a detailed examination or reply.

• But, when time allows I hope to be able to make some general comments, and therefore ask for your patience.

In our Lord, Gordon.

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Steve Noble

From: Steve Noble
noble.sgthATbtopenworld.com
Ipswich, England
Tue, 17 Oct 2006

Do you have any information on R F Kingscote 1811 -1893 - in particular, which branch of Brethren he was associated with? Any help much appreciated.

Steve.

To: Steve Noble
Mon, 13 Nov 2006

Dear Steve,
Sadly the only information we have on R. F. Kingscote is that in Pickering's 'Chief Men' which you probably already have.

• As usual those remarks are inconclusive, except references to Park Street and JND's burial indicate RFK did not follow WK.

• Having died in 1893 he would have had to face the Stuart and Lowe divisions and like many prominent brothers, including CHM and WTPW, he may well have remained with FER. Perhaps one of our guests can shed some light for us both.

In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: Steve Noble
Mon, 13 Nov 2006

Many thanks for your help. If anybody does have any information I would be most grateful.

Yours in Christ Jesus our Lord, Steve.

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Andrew Norman is on a separate page, on account of the volume of email. Access from menu.

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Bruce Norman

From: Bruce Norman
brucenorAThotmail.com
Location Unknown
Sun, 17 Dec 2000

Dear Brother:
Since you like Brethren history, see www.lasttrumpet.com and land on "History of Pre-Trib Development" (top of front page).

Lord bless! Bruce Norman.

To: Bruce Norman
Tue, 19 Dec 2000

Dear Bruce,
Thanks for visiting 'My Brethren' and for the link, which I have checked.

• I have long been aware of Dave MacPherson's speculations that JND and other brethren derived their views as to the rapture from the Irvingites.

See the whole of my reply to Bruce on My Answer 2: The Rapture.

Yours in our Lord, Gordon.

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Francisco Nunes

Dear saints,
Grace and peace in the One who is seated on the Throne!

First of all, we would like to introduce ourselves, CCC Edições Comunhão do Corpo de Cristo Edições (Christ’s Body Fellowship Publishers) is a new Publishing House, but with a well-defined purpose:

• publishing and distributing selected Christian literature, that correspond to God’s eternal purpose and guide His children to experience the deep Christian life aiming at maturity, so that we can be built up as one Body in Christ and His bride can be prepared to the fullfilment of His purpose.

We’re publishing the series Riches of Christ, in which we intend to include works by authors, from past or present, that, recognizably, have a serious attitude towards God and His Word and, therefore, they have precious contribution to bring to His Church today …

It was for this reason that we were very glad in finding your site in internet presenting C. A. Coates' work.

• As far as we know, there are no works by him published in Portuguese language;

• nevertheless, we know the importance and the richness of your ministry thanks to the comment of some contemporary Christian masters, like Christian Chen and Stephen Kaung, and of past, like Watchman Nee.

• We are interested in publishing texts by Coates in Portuguese. For this reason, we would like to receive from you a complete catalog of your available works to the Portuguese language …

We pray for the Lord to bless and guide us in our fellowship that begins, and that may He has all the glory through it.

I am yours because I am His. In Christ and for His interests,

Francisco Nunes, Editorial Coordinator.

To: Francisco Nunes
Tue, 14 Nov 2000

Dear brother,
Thank you for visiting 'My Brethren' and for your interest in CAC's ministry.

• I regret that I am unable to help you in your quest as I am not a book publisher, and also I have no texts in the Portuguese language.

The ministry of Mr. C. A. Coates is published by:

Kingston Bible Trust, Wembley Gardens,
Lancing, West Sussex, BN15 9LX, UK
Telephone: (01903) 764373 – Fax: (01903) 756747

KBT does not have a web site or an email address.

• I do not know whether they can be of any assistance to you, but I am forwarding your letter to the private email address of the KBT manager today, with the hope that he will contact you.

Yours in our Lord, Gordon.

From: Francisco Nunes
Wed, 22 Nov 2000

Dear brother Gordon,
I'm very grateful for all help that you have given in this matter. Brother Malcolm has already answered us.

May the Lord bless you in all.

In the Beloved One. Francisco.

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Mark Oberholz

To: Mark Oberholz
raspeguyATyahoo.com
Chicago, IL, USA
Mon, 8 Apr 2002

Dear Mark,
Thanks for visiting 'My Brethren'. I hope you will return and find profit in the wide selection of edifying ministry.

• Yes, you are quite welcome to use the photo of JND on your 'Orde Wingate' web site. I'm attaching the 'jnd02.jpg' file.

Yours in the Lord, Gordon.

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Laurens Overduin

To: Laurens Overduin
joverduin53ATgmail.com
Leiden, Holland
Thu, 24 Jul 2003

Dear Laurens,
Welcome to 'My Brethren'. I'm glad you found Mr. S. M. Anglin's article in Doctrine: Baptism confirming of your own study of the Scriptures.

• I sympathise with you in your experience as to baptism among the "closed assemblies", in North America known by others as 'open/tight'.

• They are more rigid in their view than some 'Baptists" who only require re-baptism for 'membership' in their 'church', while allowing those baptised otherwise to 'take communion' with them.

Except for a few early brethren, those whose ministry is featured on MB, from JND onwards, have all held the same view of baptism as set out by Mr. Anglin.

• As a young believer my first few years were in an 'open' meeting where believers baptism was the standard.

• However, through an older brother there – once an 'exclusive' – and JND's letters which he loaned me I learned the Scriptural truth of baptism.

• This led to a clearer understanding of the Scriptures and to the truth of the assembly in particular.

I would be very interested to hear from you again and to learn something of your present Christian pathway.

In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: Laurens Overduin
Thu, 25 Jul 2003

Dear Gordon,
Thank you for the reply on my email. I shall try to explain some more of my experience in contact with the closed brethren, and I hope my English is readable.

As I stated before, it was by Bible lectures that I learned the views of the brethren on the Lord's supper, and the Body of Christ and that it was mostly in harmony with the teaching of br. J. N. Darby.

• I was very soon willing to join the assembly, however the issue of being baptised was raised.

• As I stated before, I – and my wife – wanted not to make much problems of the baptising, and we agreed to let us be re-baptised, although we were not really convinced.

• Later we learned that br. J. N. Darby and others were never obliged to be rebaptised, as Luther never was, and in fact rejected the matter as a false doctrine.

• I was than very confused and wanted to discuss the issue but then encountered absolute resistance. I then knew that this was nothing else than a sect.

• I later learned the history of the brethren, and that was also never told me. I was shocked anyway, so I deserted the assembly and did practically not visit an assembly of whatsoever destination ever.

• Nowadays, the closed assemblies in Holland are partly split, and the majority join also the few open assemblies – br. Darby doesn't know happily.

• Even one of the most respectable brothers in Holland, br. Ouweneel, has disputable views about the creation in Genesis, and he also brings in the question how women can participate in the meeting.

• I don't know what the end will be, but I know what has taken place if the youth is making the ceremony into a musical.

• It is as I see it, bringing strange fire upon the incense altar, and God will not accept it.

Maybe you can tell me what kind of assembly you join or not. By the way, do I see it right that you live in Canada?

I have written myself a brief Bible study but it is in Dutch. I can tranlate it, but that will take a little time. Maybe you can read Dutch.

For now I think you will have sufficient information and I like to hear more from you.

In our Lord Jesus, Laurens.

To: Laurens Overduin
Mon, 28 Jul 2003

Dear Laurens,
Thanks for your reply and the additional information.

I erred in thinking that the "closed assemblies" were the same as 'open/tight' here.

• You were actually connected with the so-called 'Kelly-Continental' group, also known as the 'Reunited' group.

• I have had some contact with them and didn't think that they would insist on re-baptising you.

• Evidently those in Europe are more rigid on this than some in these parts might be.

• Yes, I have heard of the division among them. Divisions are always sad and especially when they lead to looseness. Of course, on the other side there is often increased legality.

As you ask, a very few brethren meet in our home. We have no formal links elsewhere but keep in touch – or hear from time to time – of others elsewhere of similar background and commitment.

• We seek to embrace all the saints in our affections though we may not be able to have fellowship for various reasons.

• Sadly, those with whom we met for many years have been scattered as a result of men seekin a place of leadership based on legality and unscriptural practices.

• We seek to maintain our commitment to the Lord's supper and the service – worship – of God, as well as the truths that have been brought out over the years by JND and the others whose ministry is featured on MB.

• See Studies: Our Responsibilty in the Present State of the Church which gives our views fairly fully.

I hope you will explore MB as you find time. You will probably find much with which you agree and some matters which are either new to you or which others – including those you were with – have spoken against.

• I will be glad to attempt an answer to any questions you may have.

No, I don't speak Dutch. It would be good to see what you have written but I don't feel I should ask you to do all the work of a translation. Perhaps you could just do a brief summary. Your English is certainly "readable".

Yes, we live in Toronto, Canada, where I was born.

We hope to hear from you again,

In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: Laurens Overduin
Tue, 29 Jul 2003

Dear Gordon,
I may say that our communion is with God the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ, 1 John 1: 3b, and in this communion there is no place for fear or distance.

• It is sorrowful that the brethren are in such a ruin, that it will maybe nevermore healed.

• One of the reasens is, that accepted leaders don't want to communicate with brothers who have serious questions about the foundations of the brethten.

• There is a lot of fear to bring controversial points of view in discussion, because they fear another separation, so they chose to ignore those who want to.

What is your opinion about the re-united KLC assemblies?

• The now deceased brother D. J. Christiaanse was very opposed to those assemblies, but he never took much attention of the brethren,
  • and did not get any communion with those who left those assemblies, because of his authoritarian behaviour.

• In brief, he stated, that every separation was the result of not committing an assembly decision, which was based on the Scripture.

• In that manner he also rejected the doctrines of br. Raven and Taylor.

• He than stated that the brethren movement was Laodicean, and must be deserted, and I did so.

By your site I was enabled to take notice, for the first time, of these doctrines and I hope you will answer my questions on them.

• I have not much problem with the doctrine, stated, that the Sonship of Christ only refers to His Manhood, because the Scripture doesn't reveal otherwise.

• However, as being resurrected and alive forever, He is certainly now the eternal Son of God in Manhood.

I have more questions to ask, but leave that for now.

In the hope to hear from you again, I wish you the best, in our Lord Jesus. Laurens.

To: Laurens Overduin
Wed, 30 Jul 2003

Dear Laurens,
Thanks for your comments, and your questions which I will attempt to answer.

You ask for my "opinion about the re-united KLC assemblies".

• I know of many individuals – in this area at least – who are godly and committed believers.

• But, as a group, they seem pre-occupied with objective truth alone without the balance of a subjective ministry which leads to the formation by the Spirit in the soul of that which is set out objectively.

• This is evident in their belittling of the challenging ministry of J. B. Stoney and others.

• This mindset has also led to the refusal of further opening up of Scriptural truth by FER, CAC and JT.

• Refusal of such spiritual ministry as heresy has frozen them in the past in a fossilized traditionalism.

• I don't mean to be harsh but speak as having had opportunity to observe these characteristics.

I'm not familiar with D. J. Christiaanse but he may be partially correct in his judgemnt.

• But I certainly could not agree with "authoritarian behaviour". This was the main factor in the recent troubles among brethren with whom I walked.

• It is sadly true that largely – though not completely – the brethren movement is marked by Laodiceanism.

• You will find some intereting comments in
  Ministry: J. B. Stoney 1: What is a Laodicean? etc.

• It should not be forgotten that the Lord had a word for "he that overcomes" in Laodicea as well as in Philadelphia and the other seven assemblies.

I'm encouraged that you can see that our Lord's Sonship is in Manhood – not in pre-incarnate Deity as some allege.

• However, while I understand your meaning, I would not use the expression that "as being resurrected and alive forever, He is certainly now the eternal Son of God in Manhood".

• The term "eternal" there could be confusing and even seen as an admission of the 'eternal sonship' error.

• But there is no doubt in my mind that, as become the Son in Manhood, He remains Son and Man forever.

• There is no explicit Scripture statement but the type of the Hebrew bondman in Exodus 21: 1-6 suggests it.

• The sustaining eternally of God's purpose in taking us into sonship, Ephesians 1: 3-6, is based on His continuing Sonship and Manhood.

• His continuing mediatorship, "For God is one, and the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus", 1 Timothy 2: 6, is necessary to
  • the relationship of redeemed men both now and in "a new heaven and a new earth", Revelation 12: 1-3,

  • and to the continuation of the assembly's bridal relationship with Him.

Some charge that we do not believe in our Lord's Deity. I have heard some KLC people ignorantly say that if one 'denied eternal sonship' he also denied our the Lord's Deity.

• Let me make it clear that such a serious error is definitely not what I believe and not what is taught by those whose ministry appears on 'My Brethren'.

• FER used to speak of our Lord in incarnation as 'in Person God, in condition Man'.

• It has often been said in ministry that what He was – i.e. a Divine Person in the Godhead – was not changed by what He became – i.e. a Man.

• See Doctrine: The Person of Christ for a clear and unambiguous statement on this holy subject.

I await your further questions.

In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: Laurens Overduin
Thu, 31 Jul 2003

Dear Gordon,
Thank you for answering my questions. I agree with the statement that He is in Person God and in condition Man. I assume this is forever, but I shall take a more closer look to this doctrine.

I meanwhile studied the doctrine about eternal life and again I find no blasphemy in the statement, that we have eternal life by faith in Christ although not in condition.

• Christ Himself said: John 17: 3, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent". John 3: 36, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him".

• Of course in Him we have also life: John 11: 25, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live": Here we have the condition; it is by resurrection.

• Saying this, you can imagine that this will close the door for communion with the KLC assemblies, because only mention the doctrines of br. Raven will do that.

I have yet another question about marriage.

• Our Lord tells the Pharisees that separation of a marriage is not alowwed, although He granted Israel that because the hardness off their hearts. In the kingdom of heaven it is forbidden unless there is fornication.

• (But Jesus forgives John 8 :10-11, "When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more".)

• And Paul about the same item added that if separation had occurred, the woman could not remarry before her first man deceased.

• I thought that this statement is irreversible. Some say, that this command is also applicable for a man but I reject that, because this is not what the Scripture says.

• I think you familiar to what happened in Renton.

I shall browse the brethren site further, and if I have questions, you will hear from me.

In our Lord Jesus, Laurens.

From: Laurens Overduin
Wed, 6 Aug 2003

Dear Gordon,
As I told you earlier, I wrote a bible study, which I managed to translate. I hope it is readable. I am looking forward to your comments.

In Jesus Christ our Lord, Laurens.

To: Laurens Overduin
Wed, 6 Aug 2003

Dear Laurens,
Thanks for your reply and comments. Please excuse my delay in replying. I hope to do so shortly but need the following statement clarified:

• "And Paul about the same item added that if seperation had occured, the woman could not remarry before her first man deceased. I thought that this statement is irreversible. Some say, that this command is also applicable for a man but I reject that, because this is not what the Scripture says."

• I'm not quite sure what your point is. Also if you mean Renton, Washington, the issue there as I understand it was divorce and re-marriage.

Waiting to hear from you.

In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: Laurens Overduin
Thu, 7 Aug 2003

Dear Gordon, My question was, do to the Renton affair, what your view is about divorcing and remarriage, because in these times every assembly has to deal with this matter sooner or later.

I hope that you received my bible study. I realize it has to be reorganised in chapters again, and I assume you can do that.

In our Lord Jesus, Laurens.

From: Laurens Overduin
Sun, 10 Aug 2003

Dear Gordon,
What is your comment on Proverbs 8: 22-38, in relation to the doctrine of eternal sonship. Is there a study available?

In our Lord Jesus, Laurens.

To: Laurens Overduin
Mon, 11 Aug 2003

Dear Laurens,
Other matters have hindered answering you on several points.

1. Yes and thanks, I received your Bible study, and am looking forward to going over it. However, it may take some time before I can comment in detail.

2. As to divorce and remarriage, I am now in the course of preparing a new page for the 'Docrine' section. When this is completed I hope it will answer your question.

3. Proverbs 8: 22-38. I don't believe this has any reference to our Lord's Sonship. For a full examination of that passage, see the latter part of CAC's 'Remarks on a Pamphlet ...' in Doctrine: Sonship of Christ.

In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

To: Laurens Overduin
Sat, 23 Aug 2003

Dear Laurens,
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. As you may have heard we have had a 'state of emergency' here in Ontario for over a week because of a complete electric power shortage and this has caused delay in use of computer.

The new page Doctrine: Marriage and Divorce mentioned earlier is now posted. I hope it will answer your questions. Please let me know.

In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: Laurens Overduin
Sun, 24 Aug 2003

Dear Gordon,
I just received your email. Of course we have heard about the great power failure in your country and the USA and I already wondered if there was much trouble from it in your situation. I hope you are all well.

• It amazes me that there is so much lack of responsibility in making the power system independent of a local failure. I hope 'they' learn their lesson.

• Modern society is build on a constant delivery of electrical power.
  • I think now and than, what will happen if we must go back to the situation in pre-industrial ages; it will cost numerous of human lives, although God will never fail in every situation to provide what is necessary in creation.

• Here in Europe we suffer a severe draught and heat wave.

• I just heard that there are big forest fires in the USA and Canada, just as we have had in Europe. Maybe its the climate change. In Slovenia the last glacier has melted.

• Maybe these are all signs of things to come, although prophecy does not give warnings in that detail, which some use to predict things that never will happen. We must beware ourselves of that mistake.

• Next time I will tell you more of such failures that make the Christian message absurd, in the eyes of unbelievers.

I will study your contribution about marriage on the doctrine site, and if I have questions, you will hear from me.

In our Lord Jesus, Laurens.

From: Laurens Overduin
Sat, 13 October 2007

Herewith I want you to become my biblical reply to the pagan Da Vinci Code, called The Maranatha Code. It is also a call to the church to obey the Lord. I hope He will bless this manuscript and bless you too.

Laurens Overduin, Holland.

To: Laurens Overduin
Sat, 20 October 2007

Dear Laurens, It is good to hear from you again after such a long time. You have evidently put a good deal of time and effort into the 'Maranatha Code', and it will take some time for me to review it all. Many thanks for sending it.

• In a cursory glance through, my attention was drawn to a remark at the beginning of Part 6 where you say that "the worship of the Holy Spirit is a false doctrine".

• I must disagree with you on this important point and refer you to "Doctrine: Addressing the Holy Spirit" and the relevant links in that section which explain our position as to addressing and worshipping the Spirit. I trust you will find this of value and look forward to hearing from you.

In our Lord Jesus, Gordon Rainbow.

From: Laurens Overduin
Fri, 28 January 2011

Dear Gordon,
Looking for a better proof of referringthe title – Son of God? to the Manhood of Christ – my interest was aroused to Hebrews 1: 4-5:

• Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

• Did our Lord inherit this name from Adam? The whole text above is beyond doubt referring to Christ as came into the flesh. Luke 3: 38
  • Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Looking forward to your remarks.
In our Lord Jesus Christ, Laurens Overduin, Holland.

To: Laurens Overduin
Fri, 4, February 2011

Dear Laurens,
Sorry for the delay in replying to your inquiry. I am very glad to hear from you again, and your email prompted me to review our earlier interesting correspondence in MB's "Mailbox". Now I'm wondering how you are doing as to practical fellowship if you care to share.

Now as to your inquiry: Hebrews 1: 4-5 and its quotation from Psalm 2 certainly do refer to our Lord's Sonship in manhood – but are not a proof to those who hold "eternal sonship", as JND and many of our early brethren did.

The attached extracts from JND show that he recognized their application to our Lord's Sonship in manhood but still maintained "eternal sonship" without stating the basis. My conviction is as stated in MB's "Doctrine":

"Mr. J. N. Darby and other early teachers used the term 'eternal' Sonship freely and, evidently, with some conviction but apparently

• without having subjected it to the same critical examination that they gave to other dogmas of the systems from which they had withdrawn.

• To some, both then and now, the use of the term by those early honoured teachers is sufficient to establish it as an unquestionable and essential article of faith,

• even though those teachers would not countenance establishing truth based on their word or of any other.
  • The Berean spirit, "daily searching the scriptures if these things were so", finds no place with the present days adherents among those known as brethren."

Now, regarding Luke 3: 38, the word "son" (except the first occurrence) is not in the original but shown by some translators to make sense in English, and other languages.

• As it was apparently our Lord's genealogy through Mary the word "son" would hardly be appropriate, nor to call Adam a son of God.

I hope this helps and will be interested to hear from you further on this matter.

In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: Laurens Overduin
Fri. Feb. 4, 2011

Dear Gordon,
Thank you for your reply, I hope you doing well.

Concerning your question of fellowship, I must sadly answer that I have none.

• Most brethren are from the so-called KLC, and have a respected teacher W. J. Ouweneel, who is spreading the teachings and practises of T. B. Joshua and a local extreme charismatic leader of the Toronto-blessing.

• One of the brethren-sites is completely promoting charismatic teachings and meetings. A lot of brethren are someway influenced but most do not want to break the fellowship because they say that what he is practising outside the meetings are not their concern. Unbiblical view. A little part of the brethren has departed but are still KLC.

• The angels are too mentioned as sons of God? Is this not Scripture too? Is it not a title referring to be created and not begotten?

• Anyway, Hebr.1: 4-5 describes the title Son of God as an inherited. From who?

Looking forward to your answer, in our Lord Jesus Christ,

Laurens Overduin.

To: Laurens Overduin
Tue, 8 Feb, 2011

Dear Laurens,
Thanks for sharing your present sad situation with which I have great sympathy. We ourselves are almost alone.

I had heard some time ago that W. J. Ouweneel held and propagated strange views.

In view of your lonely situation, I am sharing this with two valued friends in England for prayer, and who may be able to contact you for some brotherly comfort.

I look forward to hearing from you again.

In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

To: Laurens Overduin
Tue, 8 Feb, 2011

Dear Laurens,
Regarding your question, here first are the relevant passages from the New Translation by J. N. Darby:

Hebrews 1:
4 taking a place by so much better than the angels, as he inherits a name more excellent than they. 5 For to which of the angels said he ever, Thou art my Son: this day have I begotten thee? and again, I will be to him for father, and he shall be to me for son?

Luke 3:
21 And it came to pass, all the people having been baptised, and Jesus having been baptised and praying, that the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form as a dove upon him; and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight.

23 And Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years old; being as was supposed son of Joseph; of Eli,
24 of Matthat, of Levi, of Melchi, of Janna, of Joseph,
25 of Mattathias, of Amos, of Naoum, of Esli, of Naggai, …

31 of Meleas, of Menan, of Mattatha, of Nathan, of David, …

38 of Enos, of Seth, of Adam, of God.

1. Luke 3: 23-38. Adam is not called 'son of God'. The word son is not used in the genealogy -- apparently that of Mary -- as not appropriate.

• And it had already been declared uniquely of Jesus, "Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight", verse 22.

2. If we believe that the Scripture is divinely inspired we should take account of such a notable omission. The Spirit left out the word 'son' and we should not add to the Scripture by inserting it.

3. If Adam were to be called 'son of God' it could only be, if at all, as created -- "And God created Man in his image, in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them", Genesis 1: 27

• -- certainly not after the fall. For it is written "by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned", Romans 5: 12. Surely that could not be said of a 'son of God'!

I trust this is of some value to you.

In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: Laurens Overduin
Tue, 8 Feb, 2011

Dear Gordon
Thank you for your reply, which was helpful of scrapping Luke 3:38 as a proof of the title "Son of God".

Still my question is, from who the Lord inherited the "more excellent name" than the angels, (which also are called sons of God, if I translate it correctly from Job), which is: "My Son", as stated in Ps. 2?

• The word "inherited" is used and you can only inherit from one who is passed.

• That would certainly prove that the title "Son of God" is related to Christ in His Manhood, as Son of David, Acts 13: 23.

In our Lord Jesus Christ, Laurens.

To: Laurens Overduin
Thu, 10 Feb, 2011

Dear Laurens,
Sons of God as applied to angels would seem to be a title of dignity as they act representatively for God.

Re "inherits": The answer lies in the immediate context. Scripture often uses words with a fuller meaning than they are commonly used in present day society.

• Verse 2 says "in [the person of the] Son, whom he has established heir of all things".

• It is as "established heir", that "he inherits a name more excellent than they".

• This is inheritance by divine gift, not receiving from someone who died. If death was required it would be the Lord's own death, "having made [by himself] the purification of sins".

From: Laurens Overduin
Thu, 11 Feb, 2011

Dear Gordon,
Indeed, because after He himself purged our sins, (through the dead on the cross) is the heir of all things, in heaven and earth, and in that position He inherite all, having a more excellant Name than the angels, for God declares:

• "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee".
• I do not know if we can call it a gift, I think you can call it a right, because indeed He died for it.

Thanks for your reply, in our Lord Jesus Christ. Laurens.

From: Laurens Overduin
Fri, Feb 3, 2012
duinsnipATcasema.nl
Subject: See appendix below

Hi, Gordon,
I think there is no access to the Guest Book so I try this possibility.

L. Overduin, Leiden, Holland

The emergence of a Baptist sect, the "assembly of believers." "Quote from website Vergadering.nu" , Holland. Moreover H.C. Voorhoeve had an uncle, Willem Adriaan Hendrik ("Hein", 1822-1864) the youngest brother of his father, who because of TB in 1854 had traveled to the gracious Pau in southern France. Pau was the center of the "Brethren Movement” in France, especially around the person of Pierre Schlumberger (a personal friend of Darby), who also suffered from tuberculosis. Through him Hein Voorhoeve and his wife came in touch with the "Brethren". In 1856 they brought a visit to Rotterdam, where Darby visited them in transit. A year later the same happened. Darby did some Bible readings in Rotterdam and broke bread with Hein Voorhoeve and his wife in their house on the High Street. Also took part the 20-year old Herman and his mother, Anna Dooremans, (Nans). Here is the actual beginning of the 'meeting' in Rotterdam - not so much by Hein (which actually lived in Pau), but the youthful Herman, which devoured all writings of the "Brethren" that he could get. In the same year 1857 the wealthy patrician began to preach the gospel in the back streets of Rotterdam in borrowed rooms and the little began 'meeting' to grow, not at least because of the strong support Herman received of his mother from the beginning. I n 1858 the community was 'all' of sixteen people who broke bread . In 1859 the "meeting" has grown so far that beyond Rotterdam it gets attention that men even wrote about "the revival of Rotterdam”, which threatens to take a lot of a “Darby character." On one issue the group had a different point of view with Darby (and the men of the Reveil); under the influence of 'Brothers' from Germany, especially CA Eberstadt (who had established himselve in Winterswijk); they came to the view that the baptism of small children is not was against the Bible. So the quote. The result of this baptism view was that people from churches who wished to join were manipulated in order to be rebaptised. This means that the “meeting” actually did not recognized Christianity but their own sect or else you will not re-baptize someone. That this view necessarily leads to self-aggrandizement is well proven. The name "Meeting of believers" implies all this pride. Darby has always resolutely rejected this baptism view and in his letters designates this doctrine as a false doctrine, conflicting with Matt.13 and Rev.2 and 3 in which the doctrine of the kingdom of the heaven and the house of God is taught. On these two subjects, the so-called "meeting of believers” is totally wrong. Darby’s text is still to read on the internet-site of MB. Trying to test these views to the Bible at the “meetings”, leads almost to hysteria. It is virtual impossible. With the mouth there is freedom of confession in that opinion but practically impossible. The developments in the current “meetings” are now going the same road as the entire evangelical movement, from Baptist to increasingly liberal, ending in charismatic chaos. L.Overduin Leiden Holland

To: Laurens Overduin
Wed, Feb 8, 2012

Dear Laurens,
It's good to hear from you again. I often wonder how you are getting on.

Thanks for the attachment -- The emergence of a Baptist sect, the "assembly of believers". I have a little difficulty in understanding all the details but, if I am correct, it seems that this group follows the usual line of "baptists" by insisting on re-baptism. This is a sad situation and involves a great slight on God whose Name has already been put on those baptized as belonging to a Christian household.

In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From Laurens Overduin
Wed, Feb 8, 2012

Dear Gordon,
Thanks for your reply, it was received in the end I noticed. Maybe you find a second one. I hope you and Betty are well.

Since august 2010 I am retired early at the age of 61 and me and my wife enjoy it. It was a relief because of all the changes that were in place at the company I worked for, outperformed my skills.

As you can understand we are still living without fellowship after we departed from the KLC-meetings. As you also can read in the doc. the meetings in Holland, in spite of the view of Darby, has taken the decision from the start, 1857, not to baptise children.

From the start they did try to convince believers from the churches to be re-baptised, a move strongly rejected by Darby and making them a baptist-sect, because of it stays always a small group.

• Although me and my wife consented to that ritual to undergo by there pressure, we were not happy about it. After discovering the letters of Darby we were convinced that it was a meaningless act. No discussion possible however.

The majority of the gatherings still do practise fellowship with a renowned teacher W. J. Ouweneel, inspite of the fact that he embraced a lot of the charismatic and Toronto-blessings doctrines.

• It is all very humbling and dishonner to the Lord, but we can't do much about it. There are still a few gatherings not in fellowship with Ouweneel but are still baptist and anti-Raven.

So, If the Lord has no other option for us, although we pray Him for that, there will be no fellowship before He comes to take the church home. It will be soon although I have a clou that the church age will last "two days" and that is from the year the Lord ascended to heaven, 2 Peter 3:8, John 2:1. So, not long to go, Rev. 3:11 and 20.

Greetings to Betty and Marcus. In our Lord and Saviour,
Laurens and Ank Overduin, Leiden, Holland.

To: Laurens Overduin
Wed, Feb 9, 2012

Dear Laurens,
Thanks for the additional information, and especially regarding your own circumstances.

Betty and I are very sympathetic with you and Ank, as we have been almost alone as regards fellowship for many years. It is not easy, but the recompense for being faithful comes directly from our Lord Himself, both now and at His coming.

I had hoped that the contact with Marcus might lead to personal contact for you with him and Janette or with some of the brethren with whom he meets.

Keep in touch.

Betty joins in love in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: Laurens Overduin
Tue, Feb 14, 2012

Dear Gordon,
Thanks for the mail from Gordon W. Simmonds concerning the baptism view of Bunyan.

As you can read in the letters of Darby, he not only reject re-baptism but calls the Baptist-view as a hole a false doctrine, as it really is.

Baptism has nothing to do with being born-again or being a adult or with the doctrine of the body of Christ. This is totally false.

• Baptism with water brings in the kingdom of heaven as is learned from Jesus in Matthew 16-19, 28. Becoming a follower of Christ, Acts 11:26,one is baptised to be a disciple in christianity on earth. And this privilige is also meant for children as the Lord in Matthew clearly exposed.

• As assemby they form the house of God to break bread, Acts 20:7. The firsts assemblies were Jewish and never heard of the doctrine of the body of Christ still they were baptised. This makes the doctrine of the baptist totally false and maybe they set aside the rights of the Lord.

Greetings, Laurens Overduin.

From: Laurens Overduin
Mon, Feb 4, 2013

Dear Gordon,
I have made a new attempt to get my bible study in English translation. In the expectation that you finding it worth reading I send it here again.

My viewpoint is: Deut. 4:2, Rev. 22:18-19, "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

In our Lord Jesus, Laurens Overduin

To: Laurens Overduin
Feb 8, 2013

Dear Laurens,
Thank you for keeping us up to date on your progress. I have not yet had a chance to look at the study, my work is especially busy at this time -- and I do not know if Gordon has been able -- but we hope all is well with you and family and enjoy hearing from you from time to time!

Yours in Christ.

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