Mailbox: John Gossett
April 2001 – present

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John R. Gossett

To: John R. Gossett
jrgal614ATnetscape.net
Seattle, Washington, USA
Mon, 02 Apr 2001

Dear John,
Welcome to 'My Brethren' and thanks for your comments and questions.

Regarding Neatby's History, to save rewriting please see Guests: Site News: Links: Neatby's History ... and the links there to correspondence – with Andrew Norman and Daniel Soukoreff – which covers your question in some detail. If anything isn't clear please let me know.

Regarding my comments as to Miles Stanford, I had no intention of being even "a little hard" on Mr. Stanford or of being personally disrespectful as I explained.

My reply is appended to My Stand 2: Miles Stanford.

You ask "Could you also explain 'subjective' and 'objective' school. After being in meetings for a while this is self-explanatory but would like to hear your views".

See my reply on My Answer 2: Objective and Subjective.

Regarding your question "What meeting are you with today?", I am not connected with any "meeting" as we commonly use the term.

• A few meet in our home for the Lord's Supper and prayer and reading. We are very weak numerically and are cast on the Lord for His support.

• At present, we don't have formal links with any others here or abroad. This is not our choice but is a result of various scatterings.

• We do, however, share similar beliefs and practices with many of those who names appear in the 'Mailbox' and who value the ministry featured on 'My Brethren'. See Studies: Our Responsibility in the Present State of the Church for our general outlook.

Again, thank you John for visiting MB. I hope you will return and I'll be glad to hear from you again.

Yours in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: John R. Gossett
Mon, 9 Apr 2001

Gordon:
Thanks for gracious response. I was ashamed of myself to put you on the spot on the "objective" "subjective" question.

• Lack of "subjective" teaching in the church overall has lead to "Christian" psychology and charismatic errors among other things.

• Due to to MJS, Stoney and others are getting wide exposure to rest of body.

• Stoney and others' teaching on God's subjective work in us may have been looked at as demanding especially if made into law or taught in a legal way.

• Looking at some of the pitiful cases on Dick Wyman's site I wonder if some of this was at fault, although many or at least half did not understand or were never taught "assembly" truths whatsoever.

• (You came out of this fellowship yourself and I have read on your site as well as Dick Wyman's of abuses in Taylor fellowship.)

Even though we can sit under this teaching (for years) I believe there is a moral element involved.

• Even though I may have been "exposed" to this teaching I was not ready and did not benefit thereof – in fact did not retain it.

• I went off into "Christian" psychology and all the others.

• Only the hand of God can make us receptive to the truth – the same way it was revealed to us in salvation.

• Even our growth is 100% handled by the Father as well as all timing involved. (If not there would be none!) This is in fact why we are on this earth.

• We are all Jacobs, Davids, Abrahams, Josephs and Jobs as well as many others examples (at one and the same time throughout our lives). The Father is in charge of all processing and timing involved.

• The tremendous amount of pain and death to old man has to happen over a lifetime and we are all at our various stages.

• (I agree wholeheartedly with your treatment of "mystical" characterization of EB writers, and many may find Stoney too demanding as I would have myself if not for long years of chastisement and dicipline.
  • Only the Lord can "get us ready" to receive the needed ministry in our lives. "We need our needs".)

I also am not connected with any meeting – at least for last 10 years. There are many of us out there.

• I believe the Lord will use us to communicate truths we have learned to others in the Body who may have not been exposed to truths we have.

• (Your web site is doing a wonderful job of this although this may not be the primary reason you started this work. The Lord used Paul in this way turning him to work with the Gentiles alone after a time although he was not limited in any way by this.)

• (Breakup of NHH and Kelly meetings may indirectly contribute to above.)

• (I hate to bring this up but notice no "excerpts" on your site by Kelly. (Conspicuously inv!) I am sure there is a reason.)

I read Studies: Our Responsibility in the Present State of the Church and your excerpt on "Sectarianism" both are excellent and I agree 100%.

• Your distillation and presentation of these truths is outstanding, especially points on the clergy.

Also Stanford's "Position Papers – A Spiritual Anthology" have much of JBS's material (I think about roughly 50% not including other Brethren writers).

• I don't think he is representing any of these brethren in a bad light.

• He does say that the Exclusive Brethren are "extreme" in their teaching on church truths even though he may include more than the Taylor brethren as being "Exclusive".

• What is important is that many sheep are being ministered to by EB writers, that would never have been in any other way. This has brought great blessing and the resourceful Father will use this in greater blessing to the assembly in many ways we may be suprised by.

This is far too long for an email. I haven't answered many of the points you brought up in your email. Hope you will allow me to do this later.

I want to get all Stoney's works – also 'Bible Treasury' but need to do it one volume at a time.

I appreciate and have been blessed by your site and hope you will continue this excellent and most needed work.

John R. Gossett.

To: John Gossett
Mon, 23 Apr 2001

Dear John,
No need to be concerned as to your question. It gave me opportunity to review my own understanding and to address a matter that might be of concern to others.

• No doubt there has been a lack of 'subjective' teaching in general, but such teaching, indeed any teaching, can only be brought out properly as the Spirit's place and rights in the assembly are owned.

Yes, there are many "pitiful cases" on Dick Wyman's site. Most of those grew up under a legal system which emerged in 1959, and which has progressed in error ever since, and have known nothing else.

• Basic teaching as to the individual and the assembly was ignored.

• While we each have our own responsibility I have no doubt that those who have misled those younger persons will bear a heavy load.

Besides other errors, the legal system places more importance on outward conformity than inward purity and formation.

• The importance of inner purity leading to outward separation was emphasized by Mr. G. R. Cowell in readings on John published as 'Purification and Life' at Exeter in 1958.

• GRC and his ministry, which would have preserved the brethren, came under heavy attack leading to his casting out in 1959. See Biography: G. R. Cowell.

There certainly is "a moral element involved". Ministry in the power of the Spirit is wonderful but it demands a response in the hearts of those who hear.

• Merely sitting under spiritual ministry does not in itself produce spirituality. Many have been content to claim superior 'light' without the practice.

• A most important address on "Responsibility as to the Maintenance of the Truth" was given at Quemerford in 1896. See Ministry: F. E. Raven.

You are right, the communication of 'subjective' truth in itself was certainly not the "primary reason" or even a secondary reason for for starting 'My Brethren' although I'm certainly happy if any are helped as to such matters.

• What is needed is "all the counsel of God", Acts 20: 27. Paul was not a specialist as are so many today.

As to ministry by Mr. W. Kelly being "conspicuously absent" it would be more accurate to say that it is inconspicuously present.

• See My Stand 2: W. Kelly and his ministry which answers an earlier question as to my position.

• Although I do not agree with his position on several important matters, I regard Mr. Kelly and others as servants of the Lord directly responsible to Him.

• But the Lord's words apply to us all: "by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned", Matthew 12: 37.

I can accept that Mr. Stanford did not intend to represent JBS or others "in a bad light".

• However, by only presenting one side of their ministry, valuable as that is, and describing their teaching on "church truths" as "extreme"
  • he not only misrepresents them but truth which, I believe, the Spirit distinctively brought out through them.

For your interest, Mr. Stoney's ministry is relatively inexpensive if obtained directly from Kingston Bible Trust. See Site News: Bible and Books: KBT.

• There is also a CD of his ministry in preparation of which I have seen an incomplete preview copy. It is very well done. Watch Site News "Bulletins" or "The KBT Report" for news of its availability.

• On the other hand, The 'Bible Treasury' is quite costly and the very small print difficult for some to read. Most of its contents are available on CD. See
  "Site News: Bibles and Books: STEM Publications.

I hope to hear further from you from time to time. May the Lord bless you in your pursuit of the truth and in service to others.

Yours in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: John Gossett
Tue, 22 May 2001

Dear Brother (if I may call you that),
I could not find the G. R. Cowell document on the website.

I did get "Responsibility as to the Maintenance of the Truth" by FER and have been reading it casually but have not studied it.

• I agree with what I have read and know that there was much good ministry from FER and read your update on his defamation and etc in meetings.

• Many of us (including yourself no doubt) are called to go through this trial in varying degrees and is part of the Cross being worked out in our lives although his situation was particulary grievous
  • as was G. C. Willis and others in similar circumstances.

The FER piece holds forth a level of spirituality that is of course far higher than many of us will ever achieve in or out of the fellowship.

• I wonder if these men evolved a systematized way of expecting or demanding this state from their brethren in fellowship with themselves. Of course as you know this can be done in many ways.

• If we are held in fear all our assembly life of what we are not doing (or feeling) I think the outcome of this will be unhealthy –
  • to the braver souls who finally leave or to the "weaker" (perhaps stronger) saints who stay.

• How this level of spirituality is acheived individually and corporately is the great question.

• Only God in his varied omnipotent discipline can effect this growth and state in each of us individually and corporately.

• Our expectations of others in fellowship with ourself and in the "systems" may become too high and we will cause brethren to be uncomfortable in the very setting or place where they need to be to grow.

• I know you know all this and are aware of exact situation I am refering to and hope you will forgive my frankness or forwardness.

Your point, "Besides other errors, the legal system places more importance on outward conformity than inward purity and formation" is of course correct

• but you know as well as I that outward conformity can be used to develop or induce inward purity and of course

• this too will fail even though brethren and sisters can learn the language and put on the "show" or act which we all have done and do to a certain extent each time we are in assembly and it is not reality.

• I of course don't mean we need encounter group or any such nonsense but we should strive for honesty among ourselves
  • although only the Father is the correct (and only) one to communicate with about certain areas and this too is dicipline for our walk and warfare.

The Raven group exceeded in above error or overemphasis, but I am afraid it is also occurs in the best of our assemblies (even the healthiest) and is really impossible to correct.

• I do think this is why God brings us down to a more realistic level at times so we can deal with others (and God as well as ourselves) more honestly.

Also your point "Ministry in the power of the Spirit is wonderful but it demands a response in the hearts of those who hear" is correct but

• the response may take many years even over the course of a lifetime as in reality is the case with most of us including the Old Testament Saints.

• Only God can break down this wayward will and I like to think the illustrations in Job typically bring this out.
  • "Can you draw out Leviathan with a hook?" It takes the Almighty to do this in the natural as well as spiritual environment.

  • "Look on everyone who is proud, and humble him, Look on everyone who is proud and bring him low", Job 40: 10-34 NKJV.

• Each of the natural illustrations bring out the great task God has in bringing us low "that he may withdraw man from his purpose,and hide pride from man."

• This is done surgically and effectively (JBS's ministry is incredible on this subject) througout our lifetimes.

All above remarks I make because I fear real problem may be (although more developed root to branch in Raven fellowship)

• our strong and healthy desire to include and want to include all our dear brethren in everything we enjoy and are enjoying in our spiritual lives.

• However as Kelly and others have said many brethren need certain ministry but all our not in correct state or level of development to receive it( I paraphrase).

• It is of course our task to encourage growth but how are we to do this? I believe God's way is by example.

• We can never take anyone farther than we ourselve have gone and this is what we desparately need in our assemblies today.

• Men who have undergone God's discipline in there lives and not despised it but have been exercised thereby.

• This was the secret of the great accomplishments of the early Brethren – there were enough pattern men whose lives were a great object lesson for the accomplishment of the heavenly walk in others.

• Of course there is failure in all of us as were in them, but who alone but God can produce the "real thing".

Forgive length of article and any remarks that may seem judgmental or divisive – all is out of concern for likeminded brethren "outside the camp" wherever they are.

I have contacted KBT and they faxed a booklist to me.

To: John Gossett
Thu, 24 May 2001

Dear John,
Thanks for your extensive review which I read with much interest. Certainly you may call me "brother" if you desire, as long as it is not the official title that some make of it. But I prefer a simple name, 'Gordon'.

I should have explained that GRC's "Purification and Life" is not on MB. As a series of readings, it too lengthy to include.

• However I hope that some extracts may yet appear on MB as it is quite valuable. But it all depends on my waning energy.

I have left your expression "Raven group" understanding that this is how those among whom you were brought up refer to certain brethren. I'm not faulting you for this.

• But I would make it clear to all that the legal system which emerged in 1959 is not in any sense representative of FER and his ministry, or of JTSr and his ministry.

• Of course they continue to use those names, as well as JND and JBS, to bolster their own position.

• But the legal system and its leaders have no more spiritual or moral connection to those honoured brothers than the papacy has with Peter.

• The legal system may maintain an outward form but it is completely off the ground of brethren prior to 1959.

You wonder "wonder if these men" [FER and others] "evolved a systematized way of expecting or demanding this state from their brethren in fellowship with themselves".

• Having read most, if not all, of the ministry of JBS, FER and JTSr – and having been in readings and private conversation with older brethren who knew the background – I am convinced that this was definitely not so.

• But the legal system definitely did so, not to bring about a spiritual state which cannot be legislated anyway, but to coerce a conformity to their outward "form of piety", 2 Timothy 3: 5.

I cannot agree however that "outward conformity can be used to develop or induce inward purity".

• It may have some value in restraining persons from falling or wandering into sin.

• But as I understand it, "inward purity" is the result of the Spirit's operations in a subject soul.

• Certainly, "Only God can break down this wayward will" and where there is not subjection discipline is needed.

There is no doubt in my mind of the power of example to encourage growth.

• JBS and FER both insisted on the necessity of those who ministered or cared for the saints being 'exponents of the truth'.

Be assured that I share your "concern for likeminded brethren 'outside the camp' wherever they are" and look to God that He might direct some to MB and to such correspondence as we have together.

I'll be interested to hear, as time affords, how you are getting on in relation to the collective side of the truth.

Yours in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: John R. Gossett
Wed, 6 Jun 2001

Gordon,
Sorry for term "Raven brethren" actually "Taylor brethren" would have been more correct.

• I was not really referring to JND, FER or JBS in "systematized way of expecting behavior" and really meant those who came after them such as all the Taylors (and of course many others).

Many early Brethren writers and leaders (not the same thing) were not good judges of character (Darby quoted as saying "all my pets turn out badly") and assembly discipline left up to others who were maybe not gifted shepherds also.

I think best defense in the assembly is healthy resistance – like the human body.

• Things seem to work out in healthy assembly that would otherwise be a big problem elsewhere.

• I think maintenance of the truth should be paramount but only with love as first priority.

• If not we somehow paint ourselves into a corner so to speak and end up taking too many or the wrong heads on our way to corporate purity. (Like Jehu in 2 Kings 10: 16 "come and see my zeal for Jehovah".)

• I think that in general no amount of collective truth will necessarily lead to individual or corporate spiritual growth.

• In the case of our beloved brethren over the years it hasn't nearly in relation to effort involved.

• Miles Stanford wrote that "the Brethren taught and believed that if they gathered right or correctly that they would grow right."

• However something else is needed – pattern men and women among us including their ministry and prayers and pastoral work.

• Even this will not do. God himself must work individually in us to create spiritual life and growth.

• We are dead positionally (God will work this out practically in our lives) and even if saved cannot produce anything. All must come from resurrection life.

• I love Bellett's chapter on Job in "The Patriarchs" on this subject. I believe this to be true individually and corporately.

• I dont know if I agree with FER that real enjoyment of "old corn of the land" is really done corporately – If "old corn" is corporate so is manna.

• Many of us would be in big trouble if this were true – our blessed God is a generous giver of "help and food".

Not much to discuss on collective truth in my life. I haven't been back to meetings for 10 or more years regularly. My wife takes my son to OB Sunday school.

• Here it's either TWs who have recently split and who I don't agree with in areas, Open Brethren or Tight Opens (as a separate group).

• I haven't been able to attend any. This is a sad state of affairs but very common among many brothers today.

Thank you for your responses and taking time to reply. I hope I am not being argumentative on these subjects just to hear myself write if you know what I mean. I appreciate your thinking and statements.

• Only God can bring us all (outside the camp) together. If it is His will he can do this miracle.

Things in the world are abominable and Lord is using this to move many to study and read the Word and seek the truth on many subjects.

• Many are seeing the "scourge" of clerisy and problems thereof but clergy and evangelical churches as well as many cults moving to establish themselves on many fronts to take advantage of scattered sheep here and there.

• I wish there were more of us in better position (spiritually and logistically) to get truth we all enjoy out to others but God is sovereign.

• You and I in our lifetimes may never see much growth in these areas.

• The WWW is really something of a "miracle" to communicate the truth and you and others are a blessing and moved of God to do this. Thank you for your efforts.

Your brother, John R. Gossett.

From: John R. Gossett
Wed, 13 Jun 2001

Thanks Gordon – I know you are very busy and I appreciate your comments and influence.

• So many of us with brethren "histories" out there all want to get on the "soap box".

• Hope you will take all with a grain of salt and not be shocked at our comments which are often result of not only anger at personalities but bad conscience as well.

Please take you time in answering. JRG.

To: John R. Gossett
Tue, 26 Jun 2001

Dear John,
Thanks for your patience awaiting this reply. I won't attempt to reply to everything you say – with most of which I agree heartily. There are however 2 points on which something need be said.

I trust you will understand me commenting on the use of adjectives to describe "brethren".

• While I can't expect others to do as I do, I am convicted that the common practice of using divisive adjectives debases this honoured name.

• This is not meant as a personal criticism of you by any means, but I feel the need to state my long standing conviction.

One more comment and, again, this is not to criticize you personally but to take the opportunity to correct a common misconception.

• Your reference to "all the Taylors" may be taken several ways.

• But if referring to individuals rather than groups, it does not take into account the great gulf between JTSr and his youngest son JTJr.

• True, many outsiders, as those still in the legal sect, consider the son as a successor to his father. This may appear so outwardly but it is not at all so morally and spiritually.

• Firstly, there is no succession of gift or leadership in the assembly.

• Secondly, the exhortation of Hebrews 13: 7 "Remember your leaders who have spoken to you the word of God; and considering the issue of their conversation, imitate their faith" must be considered.

• It certainly applies to JTSr who served the Lord and the brethren faithfully for over 50 years in ministry and lived an exemplary life.

• The same cannot be said of JTJr either as to his post 1959 teaching or his subsequent manner of life.

Certainly, let us have "love as first priority". The failure as to "first love" while undoubtedly primarily referring to love for Christ also implies failure in love to each other for He said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments" John 14: 15.

• And also, "This is my commandment, that ye love one another, as I have loved you", John 15: 12. This to my mind is a vital part of maintaining the truth.

Agreed, "no amount of collective truth will necessarily lead to individual or corporate spiritual growth". Such growth will be in accord with the truth as revealed but it is by the Spirit.

• Light by itself is not enough for "knowledge puffs up, but love edifies", 1 Cor. 8:–1. This has been consistently emphasized in one way or another by and among brethren represented on MB.

It is surprising in view of his quotations from JBS that you should say that "Miles Stanford wrote that 'the Brethren taught and believed that if they gathered right or correctly that they would grow right'."

• Of course he may be referring to those of 'open' connections or certain 'exclusives' for whom I cannot speak.

• But it is certainly neither accurate nor true to say that of JND, JBS, FER. CAC, JTSr and those who laboured with them. The opposite is true and can be verified in their ministry.

• It makes me wonder whether MJS was only attempting to justify his own position.

As to FER and the "old corn" I suppose you refer to his Responsibility as to the Maintenance of the Truth,

• I can understand your concern if you simply look at it from the abnormal circumstances of undesired isolation which you and many others face.

• It is important in looking at the Scriptures, whether in the types or in the New Testament, to approach them from the standpoint of what is normal, and what may in a broken day have to be held abstractly.

• The manna is for the wilderness and they were to "Gather of it every man according to what he can eat, an omer a poll, according to the number of your persons: ye shall take every man for those that are in his tent." Exodus 16: 16. There the individual side is emphasized.

• But the individual side is not mentioned regarding the "old corn" which is the "produce of the land", Joshua 5: 12.

• The whole entrance into the land, the ark going before and the stones taken out of, and others set up in, the Jordan emphasize our death and resurrection with Christ.

• While we are brought into the understanding of it individually it represent a collective position as seen in Colossians.

• In any case a merely formal collective position will not guarantee feeding on the old corn anymore than much light will produce spiritual growth.

• If we are isolated – legitimately as you are – and limited we can fall back on the Lord's promise to the individual,
  • "If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him", John 14: 23.

No, I don't consider you argumentative or wanting to get on a soap box.

• I know what isolation is like and am sympathetic with you and the need to be able to interact with others of like mind. I hope we will be able to continue to do this from time to time.

• You and others in similar circumstances are in the hearts and prayers of the few who are privileged to gather together here.

In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: John R. Gossett
Sat, 18 Jan, 2003

Gordon,
Again special thanks to you for this wonderful site. The ministry is incredible and too much to take in.

• I have just been reading 'Closing Days' of JBS and every other sentence is a study.

Thanks for all your work and perseverence. I believe it will bear much fruit!!

To: John R. Gossett
Sat, 18 Jan, 2003

Dear John,
How good to hear from you again and to learn that you are still finding help through MB. Yes 'Closing Days' of JBS is a remarkable and stimulating account.

• Messages of appreciation like yours are a real encouragement.

We'll be glad to hear from you at any time.

In our Lord, Gordon.

Your guest entries and messages will show that the continuation of My Brethren is important to you.

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