Distinctiveness and Finality
in Paul's Ministry
Ministry by S. McCallum
– Part Four

A.J.G. Have you in mind at all that Paul was himself to exemplify the truth which he ministered? Does that additional feature come into it?

S.McC. Yes, I am thinking of that in a special way, and also, that he was distinctive as a sufferer. He suffered as very few others outside of Christ have suffered; and the manner of his life was all in accord with his ministry.

• It is all setting out the distinctiveness that the Lord had in mind in the ministry and service of such a vessel, in raising him up as He did.

A.E.M. Have you in mind that in introducing this subject of finality, the Lord is near? We must take on these exercises right away?

S.McC. That is exactly what is in mind, the imminence of the translation, the shortness of the time.

• It is important that Paul's ministry and what it sets out should be laid hold of in all that it involves; whether on the lower line, involving what is practical and searching, or on the higher more elevated line, involving what is so enriching and stimulating.

A.H. You remarked that the Lord appears to take a very personal hand in dealing with Saul. Would you say how that impresses you?

S.McC. It seems to me that in view of the assembly, and the greatness of the assembly in the Lord's eyes and affections, and in view of the unfolding of the truth of the assembly in its heavenly relations, the Lord is very selective.

• He entrusts this service to no other, but He comes into it personally especially from the heavenly side. That is, it is an intervention from heaven, for the heavenly side is going to open up in the ministry of this servant, and the Lord intervenes from the heavenly side Himself.

P.L. How selective the Lord was in relation to the pearl, "having found one pearl of great value". Would this choice of Paul follow on that?

S.McC. It would. So that the assembly is very select in that way. The refinement that is linked with the assembly stands out in all its distinctiveness and, as we shall see, heavenly refinement stands out in Paul in all its distinctiveness.

L.E.S. Is there something distinctive in the fact of Saul being at the stoning of the martyr Stephen, bearing upon the suffering side?

S.McC. I think there is. As we know, it was a transitional moment; God had borne with Jerusalem and what was there,

• but at that moment we get the transference of things to heaven.

• Stephen looks into heaven and sees the new centre of operations, and Saul comes on to view at that juncture. It is all pointing, I think, to the way the heavenly side is coming on to view.

R.W.S. So that heaven intervenes in this section we have read, and finally in 2 Timothy and several times in between in the apostle's service we have the Lord appearing to him. Are not these appearings important in relation to this service and ministry?

S.McC. They are, because they give the distinctive touch to service in ministry. With those that serve, it is important that there should be some experience of this kind of thing.

• Of course we must bear in mind the special elect vessel that Paul was, but there should be some experience in those that serve in view of distinctiveness of these kind of movements on the part of the Lord.

J.VanS. Would you say a word please in relation to Galatians 1: 15, in connection with selection?

• "But when God, who set me apart even from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me".

S.McC. He is showing, in that letter, that he was specially marked out in connection with his service, set apart so early. It particularly comes in over against the elements of Judaism that were asserting themselves in the province of Galatia.

A.J.G. So that God's Son was revealed in him. Does that involve that the dignity and liberty of sonship in its true heavenly character was to be seen in Paul?

S.McC. I thought it did. It brings in the line of what is distinctive in that way. It is not just that He was revealed to him, as to Peter, but He was revealed in him, meaning that it would characterise him in all his service and preaching.

A.P.C.L. Does the selection of Damascus as the location for this enter into what you have in mind? He is not converted in Jerusalem. Did not the Lord extract him from that setting in order that His work might not be impaired by anything that would damage what is heavenly?

S.McC. It is very interesting that the Lord, we might say, selects the position in which He will affect him. How often we see that principle operating!

• The Lord meets an issue, not where we think it might be met, but according to His own wisdom and His own selection. That is a great thing, especially in conflict, and this matter here involved conflict, for Saul was at war with the saints.

L.E.S. Do you think in view of his ministry as to the assembly, that we could link this with Genesis 24, as to Damascus, and why Damascus was selected?

S.McC. There might be something in that; I had not thought of it. It is striking that it was removed from Jerusalem.

• That is, it was removed from the sphere of religious influence and religious prejudice; as if the Lord would have a free hand, and a free right of way, in view of the heavenly side of the truth, and the assembly in her heavenly character, which He had in mind to bring in through this vessel.

P.H.H. Is his interest strengthened by the introduction of the Lord's own voice? It says,

• "falling on the earth he heard a voice saying to him",

• and there are other mentions there too. The Lord is intervening, not only with light and the arresting of the vessel, but there is His own personal expression of things in the voice.

S.McC. I think that helps. The voice intensifies the thought of the personal appearance of Christ to Saul at this moment. All the influence of personality would enter into that voice, the voice of Jesus, "I am Jesus". What a voice it was!

P.H.H. Did Saul seem, perhaps dimly, to have some conviction about it immediately, by the way that he answers,

• "Who art thou, Lord?"

• It says of John in the Revelation that he
  • "turned back to see the voice which spoke", Revelation 1: 12.

• Would it be right to say that Saul seems to grasp some kind of significance in what the Lord says?

S.McC. I would think he did. It is interesting, his immediate answer when he heard the voice, "Who art thou, Lord?" He did not just say, 'Who art thou?', but "Who art thou, Lord?" There was some immediate recognition on his part of who the Person was. He was no ordinary Person.

G.R.C. Are the circumstances somewhat similar in Matthew 16, where it says, "when Jesus was come into the parts of Caesarea-Philippi"? It is there that He says

• "Who do ye say that I am?",

• and it is there that He discloses the truth of the assembly and speaks of the Father revealing it to Peter.

S.McC. I think that helps. It shows how careful divine Persons are in regard to the choice subjects of Their operations and the selection of circumstances in which Their operations work, so that we are free from what might impair or damage. The principle of that would enter in, I suppose, to many matters.

• Sickness comes in and infirmity of body and detention in certain circumstances; all that brings in the Lord's way of operating in regard to matters to help us, and to help the assembly.

P.L. That is seen in its excellence in Paul being detained in prison, where these rich epistles of heavenly ministry came from.

S.McC. Well, there we have a very full allusion to what we are saying. The most of us here would recall the readings in this very hall on Paul's Ministry and the Service of God, when that very thing was referred to.

• The Lord was operating from His own side to remove the servant from anything that would blight or impair or hinder the full heavenly distinction of the assembly as it appears in those letters.

• And I believe, in all the pressure of the present moment, the deaths and the sicknesses and other matters, that we are being impressed by the Lord emphasising His right to do as He will, in order that the full value and distinctiveness of the heavenly side might appear in the saints.

J.S.E. Would it be just to enquire at this point whether Stephen had a special touch just before his martyrdom, for it says of him that he fixed his eyes on heaven? But when he speaks to the people he speaks of seeing the heavens opened.

• Would this allusion to his fixing his eyes on heaven suggest something of an expectation that an entirely new move was coming by that way and does chapter 9 show how it comes?

S.McC. I think there is something interesting in that. It is prefaced by saying,

• "being full of the Holy Spirit, having fixed his eyes on heaven, he saw the glory of God", Acts 7: 55.

• It is as if he were a vessel that was so filled with the Spirit that he sensed the new departure in divine movements and divine operations.

• I think if we are like Stephen, the Spirit must come into this matter, in the sense that if we are accustomed to making room for the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit, we shall sense divine movements and operations, even if it may involve what is drastic, as it did then.

S.W.P. Might I enquire whether the "I am" of Acts 9: 5, "I am Jesus", has some reference to His deity, while 'Jesus' stresses the side of His manhood?

S.McC. The very name Jesus carries a touch as to that in itself, and Saul recognises, even if it is instinctively, that he is in the presence of Someone very great. He says, "Who art thou, Lord?"; it is no ordinary Person he is in the presence of.

J.McK. Does the light out of heaven link on with the sound out of heaven, as though the matter is to be given impetus from heaven itself, and that impetus is to abide?

S.McC. I think so. I think we should see more this matter of heaven and how it is intervening here, especially if we are to reach what is distinctive and final we must come to what is heavenly. It is on that line that what is distinctive and what is final are brought before us.

C.M.M. Would Paul's initial experience here give him, right through his life, ever to hold the gospel as intimately intertwined with the assembly? The Lord in His skill puts Paul in touch with a brother, with a local assembly?

S.McC. That is a very important matter. The Lord refers to him in that lowly way,

• "I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest",

• identifying Himself with the saints in the suffering way and position, and then He says in verse 6,
  • "But rise up and enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do".

• Then there come into operation the spiritual facilities in a locality to serve persons such as Saul of Tarsus, all bringing out and emphasising the importance of the local position.

A.B.P. Would that be like the half-dead man being brought to the inn? I was wondering if the service of the Samaritan in Luke 10 is not seen filled out in our passage before us. The half-dead man is taken into the inn where he is cared for; so we have the initial impressions received and the power of the kingdom operating?

S.McC. There is a link in that way, the local position being what is provisional, but it is the place where we are served and cared for. That brings up the question as to whether we value our local positions. The value of the position in the city is one of the first impressions from heaven that is conveyed to Paul.

A.B.P. I just thought when you laid emphasis on the word 'must,' that you possibly had in mind the authority of the voice of the local assembly.

S.McC. I think we need to see that, and especially when you think of such an one as Saul was and what he represents. It is especially important with those that have any part in service that the value and the dignity and the authority of the local assembly should be recognised.

F.D.W. So that it says in Galatians those at Jerusalem communicated nothing to him, but he would not say that as to the saints at Damascus, would he?

S.McC. No, certainly he would not. When he said that, he was referring not to the local assembly in the sense in which we are speaking of it; he was seeking to maintain the heavenly distinctiveness of his own ministry as free from all metropolitan influence.

• We want to be free from any earthly metropolitan influence, for our metropolis is in heaven, where Jesus is, and we want to see what is worked out commensurate with that in local assemblies in the presence of the Spirit here below.

J.S.E. Is that why Luke, a Gentile, is selected to write this history?

S.McC. Yes, that is interesting, because his gospel largely emphasises the thought of locality, the Lord being in certain places. The idea of locality is greatly emphasised in his gospel.

A.H. Speaking of the local assembly, and those who serve having right respect and really gaining from it, is that seen with Paul in an enlarged way in chapter 22? He tells us something there that Luke does not tell us here; for instance, he has to be stimulated about baptism?

S.McC. Just so, apparently he was tarrying; so that we get the facility in operation to help him in that regard. You see, when we return to our local positions, there are facilities that are not found perhaps in the same way in going around.

• In the local positions there are all the facilities to help us in whatever way we need help, and we all need help. It is good to see the value of the local position in that sense, because the man that the Lord sovereignly selects to open up the wealth of the assembly in relation to heavenly thoughts is the man that values the local position.

J.P.H. It says about Paul and his company at the end of Acts 14 that they returned to Antioch and they stayed no little time with the disciples there, from whence they had gone out.

S.McC. That is they had a base to which they returned.

R.W.S. Those facilities that you spoke of involve a house as well as what is local. Is not that important? It says in verse 11,

• "And the Lord said to him, Rise up and go into the street which is called Straight, and seek in the house of Judas one by name Saul, he is of Tarsus".

• I was thinking of the house and the matter of entertaining as well as what is local.

S.McC. I am sure it is important to see how our houses and local positions come into matters, and how they may become part of the spiritual facilities which serve the work of God in liberating what there may be linked with it. What a value it puts on our houses!

• But it raises the question as to what goes on in our houses, and whether they are available in the way of a facility to serve what comes into our midst.

P.L. Apollos was thus served by Aquila and Priscilla.

S.McC. Exactly, they "took him to them", Acts 18: 26. I suppose they would have had him home.

• Not that we want to conjecture, or put into Scripture what is not there, but I suppose the force of it is there. They did not do it publicly, they took him to them.

E.A.K. Are these facilities you speak of seen in Corinth? On the one hand there is the subjective representation of it in the household of Chloe, and then we have Paul's estimate of the local assembly in the expressions \

• "the assembly of God which is at Corinth",

• and "a chaste virgin espoused to Christ", despite the conditions?

S.McC. It shows what God can do and how things can be preserved despite current influences that may be abroad, wherever we are.

• It is very striking – it is a most interesting study in itself – to see how Paul was served in relation to households, and it is he, and he specially, in the assembly epistles who brings up the thought of the households and gives instructions in regard to them.

R.H. It is like Rahab's house, and the way she received the spies in peace, and sent them out another way.

S.McC. You can see how she was ready for that, and how she served them.

A.J.G. You would say that the houses and the local assemblies must be held and regulated by the light of what is heavenly.

S.McC. That is why I referred to Paul's allusions, specially in Ephesians and Colossians, to the matter of households and relations in households. It does not come out in Romans or Corinthians; it comes out in these letters where the heavenly side is particularly in mind.

A.J.G. Might I ask further whether, in stressing the distinctiveness of what is heavenly, we need to bear in mind that what is heavenly takes character from the second Man out of heaven?

• I wonder whether we sufficiently realise the magnitude of the fact that One of the Godhead has entered into manhood to give character to all that God is bringing to pass in men. What would you say?

S.McC. It is a very striking thing. I have pondered that verse in 1 Corinthians 15 overnight, yesterday and the days before. It is a remarkable verse,

• "Such as he made of dust, such also those made of dust; and such as the heavenly one, such also the heavenly ones", verse 48.

• And in John's gospel, John the baptist alludes to Him,
  • "He who comes from above, is above all", John 3: 31.

• I think what you say is very affecting, that One of the Godhead has come into a position where He becomes the great pattern and model to which we are all to be conformed in a heavenly way.

P.L. And the power to do it, comes out of heaven in another Person of the Godhead.

S.McC. It is very affecting that another divine Person, sent from heaven, is here to bring us into conformity to what is heavenly and to maintain us in regard to what is heavenly.

P.H.H. Is it very touching that the man who specially had this heavenly ministry was down here at the beginning of his service subject to the assembly? Would you say that, practically speaking, it does become an important point.

• We may speak of the assembly and what is heavenly, but as to personally being subject, and that immediately to the assembly, is not that a practical power in the ministry?

S.McC. I think we are all searched by it. Some of us come from other parts and are away for two or three weeks; well, it is a great thing to get back to your own locality, at least I feel it is so.

• I am thankful to God for my own locality and for the spiritual facilities there to help me in it. I think we need to see the value of the local assembly, that we all have as a base, and to have the right respect for it and the right regard for it.

J.M. Would you say that in our localities in view of making way for the heavenly side, we need to be prepared to change our ideas about persons? There was what Ananias had heard concerning Saul, but now he is to think of him as an elect vessel to Christ.

S.McC. It is important to see that. We should always be prepared for what heaven is doing in that way. It is very touching the way that the Lord has personal relations, not only with Saul, we have been speaking about Saul, but with Ananias.

• He seems to know Ananias well, and Ananias seems to know Him well. There is thus a certain ease in the relations between the Lord and Ananias that is very affecting in this section, in serving Saul of Tarsus.

S.W.P. If we undervalue the local position shall we fail to get the gain of what the Spirit is doing at the moment? In 1 Samuel 10 Saul was affected for the moment, but it did not last.

S.McC. I am sure that many of us here have seen in the little history as to time that we have had – some have had a long history and could speak of it better – persons that thought that they were greater than the local assembly and they came to disaster. We will always come to disaster if we do not have right regard and respect for our local brethren.

J.S.E. Is it not remarkable that when Uriah was called to see David, his first observation in reply stood related to the ark, and his last observation to the official man who was leading? I thought it was a kind of implementing of what you have just said.

• Joab was a man who was extremely official, but when Urijah gave his reply to David his first mention was the ark, and then he puts Israel and Judah in between the ark and Joab.

• I wondered if there is not something in that former statement to illustrate negatively what you are at.

S.McC. I think there is, I think – I speak for myself – that those of us who travel a little bit, and serve in a little way, if we are not on our guard we may tend to become official. Therefore the importance of the local company and the local setting, where we work out things in a practical way, and come back to what is ordinary, we might say.

A.B.P. So that would you say it is not without design that Paul refers to the basket in the end of chapter 11 before he proceeds with chapter 12? Is not the basket an important facility in the local setting?

S.McC. It is, so that we have many facilities in that way in the local setting to serve us in whatever way we need to be served.

A.E.M. Is it of importance that the servant should have the confidence of the local brethren?

S.McC. It is a great matter. It means everything to those that serve, specially if they move out in any way.

• And it is important, on the other hand, that the local brethren should recognise what is in their midst, and get the gain of it.

• Sometimes it takes years, but as we are with the Lord there will be no irksomeness or chafing under it. We can wait His time, but the Lord would teach us the value of the local setting here as it appears in relation to Saul at the outset of his links with the Lord.

A.Hn. Would you say something more as to spiritual manifestations in the locality. You referred to it earlier.

S.McC. I was thinking of how the Lord appears to Saul of Tarsus. There was, of course, what was distinctive to him, for the matter of his apostleship was bound up with it. But then he refers to it in Acts 26: 16,

• "For this purpose have I appeared to thee … and of what I shall appear to thee in",

• meaning that the appearing was not just an historical matter that subsided or was discontinued, but it was to characterise the whole of his service.

— Do you think that there is an important matter in the three days in Saul's history, involving some apprehension of the truth of resurrection before he experiences and values the help available locally?

S.McC. I would think that something was wrought with him in those days of helplessness and feebleness and weakness that would greatly serve him in meeting the facilities that were operating in relation to him.

— I wondered if 1 Corinthians 15, the great chapter unfolding the truth of the resurrection, did not find some sway over his soul in this experience so that his links with the Lord were coloured by it?

S.McC. No doubt they were.

T.J.G. The first thing that the Lord said about Saul was "behold, he is praying".

S.McC. Well, what a tribute that is to him! It is a great thing in regard to ourselves that we should be marked by praying. That is, "he is praying", not 'he has prayed,' but "he is praying", as if it is a characteristic feature with him.

• I am sure that we need to be marked by being praying persons, even if we have to pray all night. It is a great thing to be marked by praying.

T.J.G. So that it is very significant that the greatest and richest unfolding of the truth comes in the two prayers of the Ephesian epistle.

S.McC. Yes, he alludes to prayer and the power of it there, both on the objective side and the subjective side.

G.R.C. Could we have more help as to the Lord's appearance to Ananias, and how he bears on the local administration? He is just called a certain disciple, but would he be morally an elder, and would it indicate how the Lord would help in eldership in a locality?

S.McC. I would think so. The Lord knows the personnel, and there are those He has confidence in and He can call upon. Ananias apparently was available in regard to this service, and that is a great thing in localities, do not you think?

G.R.C. I was wondering whether we should look out for that more, especially when we have cases of interested souls where there may appear to be some complications.

S.McC. I am sure we should. We should be on the alert and available at any moment for what the Lord may indicate in anything that may be required as to what comes amongst us.

A.P.C.L. And would the salutary side be seen in the fact that He says to Ananias, "Go"? As regards Saul himself it is "what thou must do".

• But is there not the side of strict obedience to what the Lord has in view in the locality, and is that in extension the school of Tyrannus in Ephesus?

S.McC. Just so; the Lord enters into conversation with him. It is very affecting how Ananias says in verse 11, "Behold, here am I, Lord", and the Lord tells him to rise up and go into the street which is called Straight.

• Then Ananias converses with the Lord over this matter of Saul and what he has done, and then the Lord brings in the peremptory word,
  • "Go, for this man is an elect vessel to me".

• I suppose we must have a sense of the Lord's authority in these matters. The reference to "the elect vessel" is, of course, a special touch as to Paul's distinctiveness, and specially bears on the great feature of the heavenly side that is to be opened up and the truth of the assembly.

• When we come to 2 Corinthians 12 we get this unique distinctiveness seen in his reference to
  • "a man in Christ … caught up into Paradise",

• and the things that he heard and then the coming back. I think we are to see in that way in regard to the heavenly side of the truth that there is what is distinctive lying behind it.

J.B.S. Would you say why the matter of visions and revelations is connected with the Lord in the first verse of 2 Corinthians 12?

S.McC. I think he is referring to the whole domain as under the Lord's control and authority, the whole realm of what is unseen. The unseen world is all under the Lord's control in that sense and the visions and the revelations are bearing on the unseen world, the realm of what is spiritual and heavenly.

P.H.H. Does this chapter 12 appear to you to be a somewhat early experience? As he writes here he speaks of having had the experience apparently fourteen years before, which would make it comparatively early. Does it enter into your thoughts about Paul and what is heavenly and distinctive?

S.McC. It does, because the whole range of what is in Christ as suggested here, while it includes more than what is heavenly, involves what is heavenly as far as Paul is concerned.

• The realm of new creation, as we have part in it, would be in mind, but it is interesting that while he is speaking about an experience that occurred fourteen years ago, he says "I know".

• He does not say 'I knew a man in Christ,' he says, "I know". He was taking account of the thing abstractly, and yet we have the great reference to
  • "I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago".

P.H.H. Do you think that the footnote about conscious knowledge would mean that he had not only known it as an experience, but it governed him consciously in his knowledge from that time onwards? So that the heavenly side really kept him at the level in his own mind, of the truth, and especially what the Lord had given him to minister.

S.McC. I am sure it does, I think this underlies the epistle to the Ephesians and the richness and the fulness that enter into it.

• We are not dealing here exactly with the family, it is God and Paradise and "in Christ", a vast realm of things so excellent, so great, that Paul is referring to, and he is caught up into that environment, but I am sure it underlies the richness and fulness that we have in the great heavenly epistle, Ephesians.

A.J.G. Had you any thought as to why he speaks of what he heard? He says nothing about seeing anything, but he speaks all the time of what he heard. On the other hand, in Revelation. John was constantly seeing fresh things, was he not?

S.McC. It is a very interesting thing that in regard to the thought of Paradise and what corresponds with it. John saw it, but Paul's emphasis is on hearing. I think we need to see that side in relation to Paul's experience, the importance of having ears attuned to what is spiritual and what is heavenly in this setting.

A.B.P. In relation to his distinctive ministry in the gospel at Corinth, and also the Supper, he speaks of having received. Would that be the spiritual result of right hearing? It is not simply that the Lord told him, but he received from the Lord.

S.McC. It would bring out in this vessel, in Paul, how his senses were acute, that there was nothing dull with him. His senses were acute, especially this matter of hearing, which I think is important in regard to this realm and environment.

• In these meetings we are so prone to think of what we will say, and the part that we will take, but there must be alongside of it this great element of hearing, and what precedes these matters, there must be this thought of hearing.

P.H.H. How far exactly does the expression go,

• "which it is not allowed to man to utter"?

• I am not ignoring the note down below, but would you mind giving us your impression of that?

S.McC. I think the note helps as to the things said. You will notice that the word 'said' involves 'rhema', not 'logos'. That is, it is fresh living communications, as the note says,

• The things said which he "heard" were not suited to this lower world and our mortal condition; that is, not merely like heathen mysteries, dreadful forms of speech.

• The things were suited to the heavenly scene and the heavenly environment, but not suited to the mortal condition here below. So that I think it lays open to us what may be anticipated, what is in prospect, what is possible for us on this line of elevation.

L.E.S. The footnote refers to John 17: 8 and that greatly helps us,

• "for the words which thou hast given me I have given them, and they have received them, and have known truly that I came out from thee, and have believed that thou sentest me".

S.McC. Yes. What communications they were, fresh living communications these words contained!

A.N.W. While they were unspeakable things, did they not affect every saying and everything he did utter himself?

S.McC. Yes, they were all there in the treasury we might say. What a treasury Paul was! What distinctiveness there was, what resources he could draw upon, in that sense. All these impressions would be in the treasury, and the assembly would get the gain of what was resident in Paul's treasury.

R.G.B. In the mount of Transfiguration, whilst what was to be seen is referred to, the Father's voice says,

• "This is my beloved Son; hear him".

• He lays stress on the hearing.

S.McC. Yes, that is very interesting. How much the hearing is referred to as we come into the heavenly environment and the environment of the glory.

• Well, this experience of Paul, while special and unique to him, should challenge us as to what we know of this kind of thing, whether, especially with those that serve, there is a secret and private side undisclosed that enters into and lies behind their ministry.

M.H.T. Does the fact that Paul uses the present tense, and says,

• "I know a man in Christ"

• show that the Lord's preventative discipline had preserved him with the impression fresh and living?

S.McC. Yes, it shows that the thing had been preserved with him unimpaired. That is, it was just as conscious to him then as it was when the experience took place, "I know a man in Christ". It is remarkable how he regards himself in that way.

• We have to be sober about these matters and we have to take a view objectively of ourselves and see that the flesh is the flesh, whether taken up as far as the third heaven, as Paul was, or whether coming down again, the flesh is the flesh wherever it is. It is unchanged and incorrigible; therefore the necessity of discipline to keep us all regulated.

P.H.H. Does that mean that the "man in Christ" suggests something which is true of each one of us in a certain sense, which is greater than all service? We are to keep close to that knowledge and it would prevent us from living in or pursuing after service, as such, would it not?

S.McC. I am sure it would. Because the "man in Christ" is not a question of his gift, it is not a question of his apostolic authority; it is a question of the formation that was there and Paul's conscious knowledge of it. We should all in that way have some conscious knowledge as to what we have arrived at in our souls.

P.H.H. I was just thinking that, and the heavenly status involved in the person, "a man in Christ".

S.McC. That is the point. We will see it as we pursue these readings, the final side involving the richness and the fulness of this status as Ephesians opens it out.

A.P.C.L. In connection with "the man in Christ" could you distinguish between "of such a one" and "but of myself"? How do you think he does not attach that exactly to himself?

S.McC. I think he is thinking of his natural make up, and his condition as still in the mortal body. We cannot glory in ourselves on that line, but we can glory in the "man in Christ", because that involves the work of God. That involves a new state in which the flesh has no place at all. But in the mortal condition here, the flesh is still present and any glorying in that would lead to disaster.

A.P.C.L. But you would not in any sense divorce the one from the other in what you are saying, it is a question of the one coming into line with the other, is it?

S.McC. Just so. As I was saying earlier, "I know a man in Christ" is really an abstract view that he takes of himself.

J.H.S. Does star differing from star in glory involve the substantial idea of heavenly personality there?

S.McC. I think it does. Therefore we should be concerned, in that way, as to what we can say of this kind of thing, and the elevation, the refinement and the richness that are linked with it.

J.S.E. Would it be right to ask if Paul's enigmatical mode of approach to this in this chapter is on account of the state of the persons he is writing to? When we come to what you speak of as the more refined features of his ministry, there is sympathetic feelings towards him in the recognition of his distinctiveness, so that there is a fulness in the presentation of matters?

S.McC. Yes. You can see that he could not open out much on the line of this elevation to the Corinthians. He had to say to them, in the first letter,

• "I, brethren, have not been able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as to fleshly; as to babes in Christ", 1 Corinthians 3: 1.

• But there was a different state in Ephesians. Then we have here the limitations that even in a great servant like Paul, the Lord does not remove. Therefore we have to understand with the Lord what our limitations are and it raises the question as to whether we accept them and find the grace that Christ would give to accept them.

A.Hn. In that connection, would you say something about verse 10, a most testing verse,

• "Wherefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in necessities, in persecutions, in straits, for Christ: for when I am weak, then I am powerful"?

• I wondered whether this great buoyancy of knowing something of "a man in Christ" would enable us, in some measure, to speak like that.

S.McC. It would. It shows what a fully delivered man Paul was, how he had a full consciousness of deliverance. The flesh thus added nothing to him, he took pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in necessities, in persecutions, and in straits for Christ, and he says,

• "for when I am weak, then I am powerful".

• I think we want to see the importance of our limitations and our discipline; it is so essential to keep us lowly and humble, and each knows his discipline, each knows his limitations and what the Lord has designed to keep him in safety.

1. first, we should keep before us, "God's glad tidings", in verse 1,

2. and then what Paul says of himself in verse 9, "whom I serve in my spirit in the glad tidings of his Son",

3. and then the distinctive touch in verse 18, "For there is revealed wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety, and unrighteousness of men holding the truth in unrighteousness".

• In 1 Corinthians it is in mind to see the distinctive character of the Lord's supper, the truth of which Paul received from heaven, from the Lord in glory, and how the discipline of the Lord runs along with it.

• Finally, in 2 Corinthians 6, we have the Abrahamic side, for in Abraham of old we have the opening up of the heavenly side in the Old Testament in the type. The passage we read in 2 Corinthians 6 is on the Abrahamic line, calling us out from the things that are inconsistent with our calling, and then we have the promises of God alongside of that.

• There is the thought of the divine dwelling and God's promise to be a father – all that might serve as a good basis in view of enlargement in regard to what may yet come before us. But this matter of the maintenance of things in their proper dignity and proper quality is very important.

P.L. This heavenly selective feature that we had this morning entering into it?

S.McC. I thought that. The distinctive line that appears as the truth of the assembly opens up in Paul's ministry involves selection and refinement.

• The wrath of God revealed from heaven is a very searching matter and would tend to keep us humble, and the discipline of the Lord running alongside of the truth of the Supper in this setting in 1 Corinthians 11 would also be searching and tend to keep us humble.

E.C.M. Would you say a word as to the distinctiveness of Paul's preaching that you referred to this morning, he preached that Jesus is the Son of God?

S.McC. I think it is the introduction of the heavenly thread, the heavenly line. It is not opened out there, it is just referred to, but there is a heavenly touch in that, for the Son of God cannot be linked with the course of things here in this world.

• He is linked with another world, and the light of another world is dawning in, as J.N.D. alludes to it in Acts 9, the dawning of another scene coming on to view as Stephen's exit is drawn attention to.

A.B.P. Would there be responsibility with those who serve as to the extent of distribution? Notes are usually revised before they are circulated, are they not?

S.McC. I am sure there is that feature entering into it, because, of course, notes are handed to myself and I must say that out of sheer consideration for the labours, the unselfish labours of the beloved sisters that have entered into them, I have revised them.

• But I feel in regard to a good deal of notes, as to myself – I can speak for myself in that way – that there is too much in circulation, detracting from what we need to get at so much. What would you say yourself?

A.B.P. I fully go with what you are saying. It is interesting that the letter from Paul to the saints in Corinth represents ministry which was given in a locality, and yet was serviceable universally, and dispensationally. Should there be a concern as to the character of what is revised for publication?

S.McC. I think there should be. There is ministry that may be given in a certain place, and the Lord may distinctly help in it, in relation to current exercises in that place.

• But if it is put into production, and copies are multiplied and extended all over the world, it may become attenuated; and you do not have the same power in it as when it was given in the place.

A.J.G. There is another matter that is causing some concern in certain quarters, and that is recording machines. Meetings are recorded, and then these are taken round to houses, and the thing is turned on, and the saints in houses are regaled with these recordings of meetings.

• Is there not a double objection to that, one that you have not got the atmosphere of the assembly there, and the other that the recordings are played back without giving the brother responsible an opportunity to revise them?

S.McC. I think that is a timely word. It is like many other things that have been brought into right use, but have become subject to abuse amongst the saints.

• We in Detroit, in the last two years, if I remember rightly, made the announcement at the special meetings, that it was desired that no recorders be used except the recorder necessary for the transcription of the notes.

• I do not think that these recorders should be employed by the brethren as a means of entertainment, which alas, sometimes they degenerate into.

• All this bears on the maintenance of the heavenly side, for the Lord is insisting on the maintenance of heavenly dignity in keeping with the assembly's greatness as a heavenly vessel, that has just come down here for the moment in relation to the testimony and is soon to go back again.

G.R.C. Do you think that the local company where the ministry is given should soberly weigh over the matter, the assembly being the pillar and base of the truth? I was thinking of what was said, that the letters to Corinth were preserved and circulated, and letters to Philippi, and so on.

S.McC. I think what you say is right. In what is said therefore we are not seeking to discount ministry in any sense, but there is the need of balance.

• Everywhere a servant goes, notes are taken and there is well-meaning in it, but the servant himself knows that he is not always helped in a distinctive way and sometimes he may feel that he is not helped of the Lord.

• Therefore the importance of discerning what is "more excellent", and what is of benefit to the saints, would you say?

G.R.C. Yes, and I was wondering in that connection whether it should be an exercise to the local company who have arranged the meeting not to want the notes published just because they were given in that locality, but to have a priestly assessment as to whether they ought to go beyond that locality or not, so that they are able to help the servant if necessary in the matter.

S.McC. I am sure what you say is important in that regard, and also that there should be a sympathetic feeling towards the beloved trustees in the Depot, who so unselfishly give their time and their labours and their energy, without any recompense from one point of view, in regard to them. Our sympathies would be with them, and we should also have confidence in them as to the distribution of ministry.

G.R.C. I was thinking of what you were saying this morning as to the importance of the local company relative to the minister, in connection with Paul himself, and whether that should not work out, if we were up to it as local companies, in this matter.

S.McC. I am sure it would; and of course we would keep in mind that the assembly does not regulate the ministry. We must keep that clear and I am sure you have it clear in your mind and I would like to keep it clear in my mind.

• The assembly can in no way regulate ministry in that sense, because ministry stands related to Christ and His headship and authority in the place of exaltation.

G.R.C. Quite so, so that it needs balancing; it is just a question of a priestly assessment.

S.McC. That is it. So that as we have been saying, with recorders and other things, we want to see that they do not get out of control and quality thereby be reduced. We know that in countries in the world an increase in production often leads to decrease in quality.

S.W.P. Is there any point in the fact that the Spirit of God has not seen fit to preserve the letter to Laodicea?

S.McC. Yes, it seems rather interesting that we do not have it and yet it is referred to. The reference to it by Paul would show us that it was extant, so that we are reminded that while everything may not come into the record, there is what is extant, and it is a good thing to keep that in mind.

C.R.W. Is there anything in the fact that Solomon wrote a thousand and five songs, but only one has been recorded and come down to us?

S.McC. It is rather remarkable. There must have been quite a selection in that matter. I suppose it will be testing to any one of us, but the great thing is as to whether we are prepared to accept this great matter of refinement that the heavenly line involves.

A.N.W. Is there anything in the fact that there is not a word recorded of Timothy either having said anything, or written anything?

S.McC. Barring, I suppose, what Paul says in 2 Corinthians 1: 19,

• "For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, he who has been preached by us among you (by me and Silvanus and Timotheus)".

• We know that he preached the Son of God but, as you say, we have no extensive record of what he said, nor have we any epistle written by him.

A.Hse. Is the reference in John 21 important, that the Spirit exercises what is selective as to what is recorded of the words of the Lord Jesus, and His pathway here?

S.McC. Yes, it is an interesting reference there to the whole world not being able to contain the books that could be written, but divine selection was employed, and therefore we have what is advantageous, and what is needed by us.

A.B.P. Would Mark and Luke suggest that there is what is augmentary and supportive in the service of those who were not apostles at the time, the apostles themselves perhaps suggesting a distinctive line of the ministry?

S.McC. I think that is an interesting reference, especially as we consider the remarkable gospels that each of them wrote, and how they found their way into, and their place in, the canon of the Scriptures. It is interesting to see how God thus honours persons serving in an augmentary way.

M.H.T. Would the contrast in the last chapter of Ecclesiastes between "the words of the wise", that are likened to goads, and the "many books", the making of which there is no end, be in line with what you are saying?

S.McC. Yes, I should think it would. The reference to discernment among the saints as to what is ministered would bear on that, because the priesthood in Numbers involves what we are saying. There is discernment as to what is ministered, and selection would be according to that, I mean the discernment as to what is right and approved of God.

A.P.C.L. In connection with what you have said as to the labours of persons in notes being presented, do you think that this discernment you are speaking of might be exercised before that took place?

S.McC. I should think so, because it is a tremendous and prodigious labour, and you feel for the sisters involved, and sometimes brothers expect them to do it. There is a tremendous amount of time and labour put in and you wonder whether it is warranted.

A.P.C.L. I feel very sympathetic with what you say, because the matter is really out of hand. I was just wondering whether in the case of three-day meetings, and meetings of that character, a revised summary might not keep the brethren in line with what is proceeding without such labour, unless it was so decided that there was the substance in it.

S.McC. I think you are right in that. A summary could often take the place of full notes, for the general information of the brethren around who were not able to get to the meetings, as to what was before the saints. If it was discerned that there was something of general help, then it could come into the other category.

E.E.P. Paul says to Timothy "especially the parchments". Would that support what you say?

S.McC. Paul apparently attached some importance to what was current in that way. Now I think we should get to these thoughts in Romans as to the distinctiveness of the glad tidings, as Paul refers to them as

• "God's glad tidings",

• and how he served God in his spirit in the glad tidings of His Son.

• This is the positive side as entering into the glad tidings, and then the wrath of God from heaven bears on the negative side. This is a unique expression in verse 18; it is altogether new.

• There was wrath in the Old Testament, the wrath of God operating through the Assyrian, there was a scourge in Israel, making inroads into the land, and the wrath of God came on Israel in delivering them into captivity in Babylon; but that is not this.

• This is something different and distinctive. It is something new, something that has come in in connection with the revelation of God.

A.Hn. Do you think that Paul here, in speaking of God's glad tidings, has the whole range of his ministry in mind?

S.McC. I think it includes it, although in Romans he would particularly have in mind what is before him. But, whether it was the glad tidings of the grace of God, or the glad tidings of the glory, I am sure that Paul would have the full thought in mind, in the way he speaks of being separated to God's glad tidings – a remarkable expression.

A.J.G. Have you in mind that there is something distinctive about this wrath of God revealed from heaven, because the whole truth has come out, and therefore the wrath of God against those who hold the truth in unrighteousness is all the greater?

S.McC. I have. I think it is very sobering, and very solemn for us to consider this in its bearing upon what may be existent, especially in connection with the higher level from which things are now viewed, the cross having come in, and God having penally rejected evil in a total way, as He had never done before.

• His nature has been revealed, and this enters into this passage:
  • there is revealed wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety, and unrighteousness of men holding the truth in unrighteousness".

P.H.H. Would that be all the more so on account of the title used, in the beginning,

• "God's glad tidings … concerning his Son",

  and then in verse 9, Paul says,

• "God … whom I serve in my spirit in the glad tidings of his Son"?

• Does the use of the term "Son" there make it something which is very dear and close to the heart of God, so that the rejection of these glad tidings, or the truth, in unrighteousness must be dealt with in a more drastic way.

S.McC. That is it. Our responsibility therefore – not only that of men in an unregenerate way – is much greater in the present dispensation than it has ever been before, on account of the revealed wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety.

J.S.E. Are not we more tested by it as the days close in?

S.McC. I think we are. This matter of holding the truth in unrighteousness, we can see how heaven is insisting that the truth cannot be held that way. Indeed, the wrath of God is expressed against that kind of thing, and it is all around us in Christendom.

L.E.S. Would Paul have it in mind in 2 Corinthians 4, where he says

• "nor falsifying the word of God, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every conscience of men before God. But if also our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those that are lost; in whom the god of this world has blinded the thoughts of the unbelieving, so that the radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine forth for them", verses 2–4. Would there be a link with that?

S.McC. There is. It shows the seriousness, as this chapter shows, of the rejection of light, and how things become solemn when light is rejected. As we follow down this chapter we can see what necessitates the revelation of the righteousness of God, and the revelation of the wrath of God. The revelation of the righteousness of God is a new thing too, as well as the revelation of the wrath of God.

T.J.G. Could you open out a little the last clause of verse 18,

• "and unrighteousness of men holding the truth in unrighteousness".

• It does not simply say men holding the truth in unrighteousness, but "unrighteousness of men holding the truth in unrighteousness".

S.McC. It is unrighteous for any of us to profess to hold the truth and to go on with what is unrighteous and to be found in what is unrighteous. That is what is in mind, "the unrighteousness of men holding the truth in unrighteousness".

• If I hold to the truth of the heavenly calling, and I am found in circumstances that are not in accord with it, that are unrighteous, I am holding the truth in unrighteousness.

J.S.E. Is there any help for us in that this epistle and the epistle to the Ephesians preserve the distinctiveness of Paul by himself in the ministry, and in this one that we are reading now, he presents things, we might say, from an inclusive viewpoint.

• But as he proceeds into the corrective epistles, does he not break the matter up, and bring certain features of the truth to bear upon the saints according to their state?

S.McC. It is very interesting to see that in Paul's style of writing and ministering.

• For instance, in the Colossian epistle, you will remember how he speaks about presenting every man perfect in Christ. You can see the broad outlook that he has, but then he wants to focus our attention on the assembly, the body.

• But this matter of God's Son, and the high level of the glad tidings in this sense, God's affections and God's nature entering into it, is very important in the way we preach or in the way we serve.

C.H. Would that be indicated in what he says at the end of this letter, that his preaching of Jesus Christ was

• "according to the revelation of the mystery"

• – according to it? It may not have been the whole subject of the revelation, but it was part of it.

S.McC. Very good. It would show how he was always governed by that light, wherever he was.

C.H. And the effect of that seemed to have promoted the spirit of worship in his soul, according to the end of that letter.

S.McC. Just so.

P.H.H. Referring to this matter of the Son again, later on, for instance, in chapter 3, Paul talks about

• "righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ", verse 22,

  and then in verse 24,

• "the redemption which is in Christ Jesus".

  Later on still he says, verse 26,

• "justify him that is of the faith of Jesus".

• Would it be right to say that "God's glad tidings … concerning his Son" is the way God views that Person, how He stands with Him,

• whereas, when it is a case of the truth being applied to ourselves, other titles are more suitable, like Jesus, or Jesus Christ, or Christ Jesus?

S.McC. Exactly. That is, when certain things are to be done in our souls, it may be "the glad tidings of the Christ" or the like. That would involve meeting a practical need in our soul,

• but the glad tidings of God's Son seems to have a detaching effect, introducing us, in our thoughts, into God's world and the Centre of His affections.

G.R.C. Does that show the importance of verse 9? It was from the standpoint of the glad tidings of God's Son that Paul served, he had an appreciation of God's side of the matter.

S.McC. Just so. What refinement would enter into his service in that sense,

• "God is my witness, whom I serve"

• – not by my hands, not in the many labours –
  • but "whom I serve in my spirit in the glad tidings of his Son",

• showing how Paul was internally affected by the matter.

G.R.C. So that a priest was preaching, the word 'serve' being priestly service.

S.McC. He was marked by what was priestly in the service of the glad tidings, he would always think of, and think for, God.

J.M. Do his later references to God's Son in this epistle, for instance in chapter 5,

• "reconciled to God through the death of his Son", verse 10;

• chapter 8: 3, "God having sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh",

  and then in verse 29, our being

• "conformed to the image of his Son",

• open up something as to this blessed thought in relation to God?

S.McC. They do. It is the background for verse 18 of chapter 1,

• "For there is revealed wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety".

• In the Old Testament we have God governmentally operating; for instance, in relation to Abimelech, and we have God governmentally operating in relation to David, and governmentally operating in relation to Israel; but that is not this; this is not the government of God on that line.

• This expression "For there is revealed wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety" is the full declaration in the cross of God's total penal rejection of evil, in the light of the expression of His own nature there.

A.N.W. He does not say exactly that the wrath of God is revealed in the glad tidings, does he? The righteousness of God is revealed.

S.McC. It is important to see the distinction, because it is not revealed in the glad tidings. The statement "For there is revealed wrath of God" is just the broad statement saying that it is revealed.

• It is not executed, it does not come into operation in our dispensation; that is not the point. It is just the fact that it is fully expressed in the cross of Christ, when God rejected evil, rejected sin, in such a complete way.

A.B. In regard of Paul serving God in his spirit in the glad tidings of His Son, would it ensure that there was a portion for God, irrespective of public results?

S.McC. I think so. That is, he would have in mind what was for the heart of God in serving in the glad tidings, in that way, in his spirit.

A.W. Why is heaven mentioned in verse 18? I believe it is the only time in the epistle to the Romans when heaven is mentioned.

S.McC. It is the first time, for there are two references to heaven. We have one in this first chapter, verse 18, and then in chapter 10, you remember that reference,

• "Who shall ascend to the heavens? that is, to bring Christ down", verse 6.

• These are the only two references to heaven in Romans. It is very striking, what you refer to, because the point is, it is not what is revealed on earth, as we have been saying in Israel, in connection with the throne of God in Israel there was wrath operating in that relation, but this is something new.

• God's Son having come into the world and having gone to the cross, evil being judicially dealt with there, wrath is revealed from heaven upon all impiety. It is from heaven, not from the earth.

J.VanS. If wrath is not revealed, what is your thought about Acts 5?

S.McC. You are alluding to the assembly discipline there.

J.VanS. Two died without human hands whatever.

S.McC. Well, the government of God always operates, it has not ceased. The government of God operates from beginning to end, and it will operate in the millennial world if necessary, in relation to certain matters that arise.

• In what we are saying we do not mean that it ceases to operate, but that is not quite the thought here; "there is revealed wrath of God from heaven" is not executed wrath in this dispensation.

• It has been expressed and therefore our conduct, our lives, have to be taken account of in that light.

G.R.C. What you say as to it not being executed seems to make the matter very clear. It is revealed, but not executed, but because Christ has borne it, the world provisionally is in reconciliation.

S.McC. That is it, so that in the glad tidings the righteousness of God is revealed.

W.H. Would that be seen also in the end of 1 Corinthians, where the apostle refers to one being accursed at His coming, the present time is a period of grace?

S.McC. That is a striking passage, as if the subject of loving our Lord Jesus Christ is so wondrous in his soul, that he cannot bear to think of persons that do not love Him; but he anticipates it, he extends it.

J.T.S. Did you have in mind that if God has expressed His displeasure in regard of any matter, we should be brought into accord with that?

S.McC. That is what I am thinking of. It connects with the high level and standard by which we are governed in our dispensation, in wrath being revealed from heaven against all impiety, and unrighteousness of men holding the truth in unrighteousness. That is the high standard that we are governed by in our dispensation.

A.P.C.L. Is it remarkable that Enoch should prophesy as having this matter as a kind of present reality with himself?

S.McC. Yes, that is very interesting, especially as he thinks of the Lord coming amidst His holy myriads. Have you that in mind?

A.P.C.L. Yes, he says according to Jude,

• "the Lord has come amidst his holy myriads, to execute judgment against all", Jude 14.

• While the execution is not yet, do you not think that those who are waiting the appearing have that as a living present matter in their souls?

S.McC. So that in matters that come up amongst us, we do not leave them till the judgment seat of Christ, or leave them till the final administration of things. If we are in the light of this wrath revealed from heaven against all impiety, we will quickly adjust ourselves and our circumstances in keeping with that.

L.E.S. So that, is that what we have in Revelation 18: 20,

• "God has judged your judgment upon her"?

• Wrath having been revealed from heaven, there has been the execution of it in the Revelation, and we are to move and walk, and be governed by the light of that.

S.McC. Yes.

A.J.G. Is it striking that in Revelation 15 it is one of the four living creatures that gives to the seven angels the seven golden bowls, full of the fury of God, as though when God pours out His fury on the earth, it is administered by a living creature giving the bowls of it to the angel who is to do it.

• Does that show how we, as living creatures, are to be brought into full accord with the wrath that has been revealed, and in that day will be executed?

S.McC. That helps greatly, and I am sure that in the assembly now, we should think of that.

• It is as through the glad tidings of God's Son coming into what we have been brought into, especially in the light of the heavenly order of things that is in mind, we should be like the living creatures in that way, sympathetic with God as in His nature He has penally rejected evil in toto.

• He has not rejected it according to the law, but rejected it according to His nature, which has been fully expressed.

P.L. The searching character of the judgment seat of the Christ in 2 Corinthians 5 is followed by

• "knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we persuade men, but have been manifested to God".

S.McC. Very good. That would be a link with what we are saying. The wrath of God has been revealed from heaven against all impiety, so that if we are in circumstances of impiety, circumstances where God is not honoured as He should be honoured, and where the truth is not being held in righteousness, we should be concerned to get out of them, because the wrath of God is revealed against it.

W.R.M. In 2 Thessalonians the apostle refers to the tribulations and persecutions of the saints as a token of the righteous judgment of God. Is that important light in relation to the sufferings of the saints at the present time?

S.McC. Yes, it is.

P.H.H. This matter of judgment, not on the same level, is pursued in relation to the Supper.

• I do not want to take you beyond where you want to go, but in connection with the scripture in 1 Corinthians 11 I was looking at certain persons who are said to be 'guilty', and then the invitation for a man to prove himself, and then the eater and drinker drinking judgment to himself, and then the governmental result, for instance, in verse 30, of doing wrong things in connection with the Supper.

• Would that fit in with, so to speak, "holding the truth in unrighteousness", having the light of the Supper but personally not acting up to the light we have.

S.McC. I think it does. It is very striking that we should get all this through Paul.

• We do not get it through Peter, we do not get it through John, we do not get it in the synoptic gospels; it is left to the minister who gives us the Supper as he received it from heaven, from the Lord, from that viewpoint.

• >Paul is elevating, as it were, the outlook in regard to it, that it cannot be taken without the becoming sobriety and solemnity that belong to it in that setting. Do you not think?

P.H.H. Yes. I wondered whether it was mingled with your thought at the beginning of the reading concerning judgment and discipline, discipline as working among the saints in view of purity and so on. For instance, in 1 Corinthians 11 again,

• "being judged, we are disciplined of the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world".

• Is there some element in the assembly now which ought to cause us to discipline ourselves? It is not a question of an assembly meeting and an assembly judgment being pronounced, but the element of judgment, and self-judgment.

S.McC. Paul disciplined himself. He said, "I buffet my body, and lead it captive, lest after having preached to others I should be myself rejected", 1 Corinthians 9: 27.

• We can see how strong he was about his own personal matters, his affairs linked with his body, so that the truth should not be held in disrepute.

A.B.P. Is this passage in 1 Corinthians 11 the bush burning but not being consumed?

S.McC. I suppose there is a suggestion of that. They were a suffering people, and yet "the good-will of him that dwelt in the bush" is very remarkable. We have God in the midst of a suffering people in a disciplinary way, yet they are not consumed.

• It is, I suppose, all to emphasise the line of reduction in relation to us naturally and refinement in relation to us spiritually, would you think?

A.B.P. So would it link with Paul's word in Hebrews 12: 28 and 29,

• "by which let us serve God acceptably with reverence and fear. For also our God is a consuming fire".

S.McC. Just so. I think we should have regard for the way that Paul presents the Supper;

• he says "I received from the Lord, that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus, in the night in which he was delivered up, took bread".

• He has his own distinctive way of bringing in the truth of the Supper, and it is linked with the first day of the week, and all the heavenly side of things that belongs to that day, the resurrection and ascension. All that enters into it is linked with that day, and he brings in the Supper as having received the light of it from heaven.

J.S.E. Does he present the words of the Lord Jesus by themselves on the line of our privilege, but when he amplifies it, from verse 26, is he really bringing home to us our own responsibility for a suited condition by which we enter into the privilege of the Supper?

S.McC. I think so. I think that is what he has in mind.

A.E.M. I appreciate what you said, but I want to raise the matter of taking young people into fellowship without their having proper appreciation of their place. I think young people should be made to understand that to break bread is a solemn responsibility; if they go away from it, they will come under the discipline of the Lord.

S.McC. That is right, I think what you say is important in that relation, because the fellowship is entrusted; after a manner of speech, into their hands, and if they compromise it, they come under the hand of the Lord. This chapter is stressing the Lord in that way.

P.H.H. Does what has been said make verse 30 a very solemn matter? "On this account", that is, the eater and drinker bringing judgment on himself,

• "On this account many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep".

S.McC. It shows the Lord is not relinquishing His hand. We think we are in the dispensation of grace, and may be some of us think we can go a long way, but we must remember that in the assembly the Lord does not relinquish His hand, He keeps His hand over matters.

G.R.C. Are we really unfair to young people if we do not put that side to them,

• as the Lord said "If any one desires to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me", Matthew 16: 24?

S.McC. I think we are. We are not really impressing them with the sense of responsibility; we may impress them with the privilege, but we have to impress them with the sense of responsibility in linking on with the Lord's supper and the Lord's people.

A.E.M. The Lord gives us time to judge ourselves; if we fail to do it, He will judge us.

S.McC. That is very striking, so that it says in verse 28,

• "But let a man prove himself, and thus eat of the bread, and drink of the cup".

• What grace shines in the midst of it all, that the Lord gives us opportunity to prove ourselves.

R.W.S. This is not vicarious, this is what a person actually goes through because of what he does; but in certain illnesses, and we have many, both mental and emotional and organic, we cannot exclude, I suppose, the side of what is vicarious, can we?

S.McC. We cannot; that is, often the Lord may introduce discipline into our locality because of certain conditions there. He may affect the bodies of certain of the saints, because of certain conditions that are there; and they may have to suffer on account of others in view of bringing out certain things.

A.C.S.P. May I ask again about the matter of young people being received; it is a question that is up all over the country.

• Did not J.T. constantly call attention to the references in Scripture to twelve years, both in connection with the Lord, and in connection with the little girl that He raised? Am I right in thinking that while the age is not literal, we would look for the features of a young person of that age before receiving them?

S.McC. Yes, I Should think so. The idea conveyed in the age of twelve is that of responsibility.

• We know that there are some young persons that attain years of responsibility much earlier than others, therefore what we look for is some feature of maturity in the young people, something that shows that they are beyond their age naturally in that sense.

• t may be in the possession of the Spirit, or in some apprehension of the truth of the Lord, their love for the Lord; we would look for some element of maturity in them.

J.F. Did Naomi stress the side of responsibility in the way that she dealt with Ruth?

S.McC. Yes, she did. That is, she gave Ruth a sense that it would not be an easy path, and the young people have to face that.

C.H. Might I refer back to what was said about vicarious suffering? Is it understood that the Lord may cause some to suffer who are not necessarily the wrong doers? In His discipline in relation to the local company He may touch those who in fact may be valuable brothers and sisters, to exercise the rest?

S.McC. Yes, in order to bring out certain things in regard to the local position. It may be something perhaps that attention needs to be drawn to, and in getting near to God about the matter, God brings light to bear.

• It is like the three years of famine in the time of David. David could not figure out just what was the cause or what it was about, and he sought God, and God gave him light as to the matter, and David proceeded accordingly. It would be like that.

C.H. I was thinking that in recent times in this country, the Lord has taken some youngish men, who have been a remarkable help in their locality, and we should have said those who could ill be spared. Is it not really to raise an issue with those who are left?

S.McC. I am sure it would raise concern with those who are left as to where we are and how we stand in relation to the testimony and the Lord's interests.

C.H. So that as partaking of the Supper in this public sense, we are in the sphere of lordship, and have to do with Him – all of us, in our relations together?

S.McC. That is it. The Supper deals with us as brothers and sisters; J.T. pointed out that in Corinthians we are not in heaven, we are not in Canaan, we are in the wilderness. We are men and women in flesh and blood conditions and therefore we are governed by time.

• That is, we cannot go on all day in the Lord's supper, we are governed by time, and by wilderness conditions. Therefore all these things have to have consideration in relation to the Lord's supper.

C.H. So that we are all intended to come to the Supper as exercised persons, that as far as we are aware there is nothing in our associations or our secret lives, that would hinder us from partaking of the emblems on the Lord's day?

S.McC. Just so.

J.B.P. Could something be said about "distinguishing the body"?

S.McC. That is a matter of the Lord's body, and our discerning it. That is, you just do not take the loaf as a rite or ceremony without discerning the Lord's body involved in it.

G.R.C. Many have the Saturday free also, do they not?

S.McC. Just so.

A.E.M. I recall J.T. saying at Knoxville, that we should all sit down together at the same time in the same time zone; so it is a universal matter, and the unity of the faith is involved.

S.McC. Yes, I do not think it would do for some to change the time here, and some in another district, and some in another district. We would be back to where we were before; it would not facilitate the working out of the Lord's supper.

C.H.M. Would Mr. M, tell us what is his main point in this important suggestion of having the breaking of bread earlier?

A.E.M. In the larger cities the brethren have not time to get to their afternoon reading and then to get home and entertain and get back in time for the preaching of the gospel. I think therefore that a little extra time would be essential, say half an hour or one hour earlier. There is another matter, and that is that most transport begins at 11 o'clock in this country. The brethren would therefore have to be wise about it and consider it. We cannot settle it here.

A.W. In Germany we break bread at 10 o'clock.

P.L. In large cities, where the saints are not able to gather entirely together for the reading in the afternoon, but who resort to group readings, it would certainly facilitate the group readings being held regularly every Lord's day, if there were more time available.

S.McC. Yes, it certainly would. I think what has been brought forward needs due consideration. Brethren in the Barbados have felt that it would be much better for those in the tropical areas if it was a little earlier. Is that right, Mr. E.? You have had that concern, have you not?

H.O.E. It is quite right in respect of some, but others who have large families and who are wholly dependent on public transport could hardly get there before the present hour. It is a matter we have been considering for some time, but have not yet come to a conclusion.

A.N.W. There is no light on it in Acts 20, is there?

S.McC. What do you have in mind?

A.N.W. We are not told the time they came together; we are told that Paul discoursed till midnight and that after they had broken the bread, it says "and having long spoken until daybreak".

S.McC. Of course, in the early days the Supper was taken in the evening.

R.W.S. Would not the thought of compression enter into the Supper, so that possibly we do not have such long meetings?

S.McC. I am sure there is something in that. I think there should be concern with us that we are there on assembly time, and the most should be made of the time, so that the meeting is not drawn out to an hour and a half, or an hour and forty minutes. The wilderness side of the position would involve that all that is measured in wisdom.

A.J.G. Would not that involve our being concerned to be ready to proceed in the various stages of the service? I do not mean in any fleshly activity, but being spiritually alert, so that no time is lost in long pauses?

S.McC. I am sure what you say is right. I remember being in a meeting in Nostrand Avenue many years ago with beloved J.T. There were two of us that were visitors and there was a pause, and neither of the visitors went forward to give thanks, and J.T. got up, and went forward and said, 'Lord, we have come here to break bread, and we should proceed with it,' and he proceeded to give thanks.

• It is the value of assembly time, and that we are in the Lord's domain, and under His hand in the dominical side at that time.

A.Hn. Do the operations of the Spirit have an important bearing on that? You remember how beloved J.T. used to stress the idea of "from glory to glory", glorious persons leaving their houses, and sitting down in the assembly, and proceeding accordingly.

S.McC. Therefore we have to be concerned, even when we leave our houses, as to what we are coming to. We do not come into the assembly in any kind of way; we are coming into the greatest thing on earth, and therefore dignity should attend our comportment.

A.B.P. Should we always expect the visiting brother to break the bread?

S.McC. The only answer I would give to that is that love does not behave itself unseemly. If Paul or Peter or John or Timothy or Silas were to come into Detroit, I think we would wait to see if they would go forward. Would not you in New York? I am sure you would.

A.B.P. Yes, but when you are visiting this country, and you move around from place to place over several weeks, do you feel that it is right to break bread each Lord's day?

S.McC. I have been at a few places where someone else has done it.

C.H. You waited at Doncaster.

A.B.P. Should not there be an exercise with brethren that we should not put the visiting brother in the position where he has to do it?

S.McC. I should think so. It is a question of liberty, and dove behaving itself in a seemly way. I remember, in our locality once, a brother of great respect came into the locality, and a young brother immediately jumped up. Well, it was like love behaving itself in an unseemly way, an ill-mannered way.

• The assembly is a place of heavenly manners, but there should be liberty, as you say.

Ques. Would you make it a test of fellowship?

S.McC. What would you say yourself when you read this passage? Would you make it a test of fellowship?

Rem. It seems like it.

S.McC. It seems like it! Look at the scripture, for instance, now: "Be not diversely yoked with unbelievers". If a believer was yoked with an unbeliever, would you not make that a test of fellowship! Certainly. Well, there is the answer to your question.

— Is there not almost an Ephesian touch in the idea of hearts being expanded? The apostle prays in Ephesians that the saints may be strengthened

• "by his Spirit in the inner man; that the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts".

• I wondered if the idea of having hearts expanded by the presence of the Spirit, so that we are quickly sensitive to anything that would grieve Him, is not the issue here.

S.McC. Very good; it is like another Abrahamic touch. Jehovah led Abraham out, and then we have all the expanded view He gave him, the enlarged outlook. It is like Paul taking the Corinthian brethren, and having desires for them along the same line.

A.P.C.L. Is it not affecting that it is really the Father that he is bringing to bear upon them? Chapter 11 that we have been speaking about is a matter of the Lord, and His discipline.

S.McC. It is very touching that the Father should come in here, as if it is a matter that involves a subject of tender care. What He would be to us, in these matters that become such a test!

A.P.C.L. And yet at the same time it involves the understanding of the Father's position as Lord of the heaven and the earth, and as the Governor of the universe.

S.McC. Exactly. We have the thought of El Shaddai, Lord Almighty, suggesting supreme power linked with the Father in this setting.

P.H.H. Does holiness enter into this a good deal? Is it a holy family, and is there a holy suggestion in the quotation from Leviticus,

• "I will dwell among them, walk among them", and so on?

S.McC. There is. So that the wrath of God revealed from heaven against all impiety is an allusion to things being judged according to the nature of God. It is not just the standard of the law, but the nature of God, God revealed, and holiness is insisted upon in the saints, in the light of that.

D.R.J.G. Does Haggai 2: 11-13 bear on what you are saying? I was thinking of the question of holiness as it is dealt with there.

S.McC. Yes. A holy thing touching an unclean thing does not make it holy, but an unclean thing touching what is holy makes it unholy.

P.L. And an unclean association pursued, such as directorships or shareholdings, or whatever it be of that character, if disregarded by certain persons after appeal on the part of brethren, the matter should not be left where it is, should it?

S.McC. No, it should not. The Lord, in view of the final side of things, is raising all these matters with us, because of the assembly going into heaven. Therefore we should look into them and take account of them; and especially bear in mind this word

• "Wherefore come out from the midst of them".

L.E.S. Does the reference to Leviticus 26 greatly help in this matter, where He says,

• "And I will set my habitation among you; and my soul shall not abhor you; and I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be to me a people. I am Jehovah your God, who brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you walk upright", verses 11-13.

• Would not that underlie the breaking of any associations that we might have?

S.McC. It would. I am sure that God would help any one of us who is in wrong associations, to face the matter and get out of them; because it is a matter that we should be unified about.

• It is not a question just of the thought of a few, but as on the heavenly line, Paul's ministry would insist on unification amongst the saints in regard to all that is extraneous and not in keeping with the truth.

W.B.H. Is the first verse of the next chapter important, following what we have been saying?

• "Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us purify ourselves from every pollution of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God's fear".

S.McC. Yes, that is an encouragement to us.