Mailbox: John Vedder
February 2000 – present

John Vedder

From: John Vedder
jdvedderATcox.net
Sierra Vista, Arizona, USA
Tue, 1 Feb 2000

Dear Gordon,
It has been many years since we last communicated in any way, but I thought it well to write briefly and let you know that I am among the many readers of your site.

• Thank you for your efforts in making available some interesting and instructive material which I had not seen before, as well as providing a rather unique forum.

• Along with Dick Wyman's site, you afford a window into what has otherwise closed in on itself, becoming essentially an ecclesiastical "black hole".

• I have been deeply impressed by how FER's many warnings about ecclesiasticism and brethrenism have proven true in the century just past,
  • even, and perhaps especially, among those who professed to hold his ministry in highest regard, but who in fact gave it little heed.

• All attempts, past or present, to build with "wood, grass, straw" are inevitably made manifest by the consuming fire of judgment.

If you ever hear of anyone's preparing a CD version of the ministry of FER, CAC, etc.,

• similar to the currently available Darby Disk, I trust you'll be so kind as to mention it on your site. It would be quite useful.

In Christ Jesus, John Vedder.

To: John Vedder
Thu, 03 Feb 2000

Dear John,
Thank you for visiting MB and for your message! It must be 25 years since we were in contact.

• I well remember corresponding with you and Mike Hagan and, of course, "Until" magazine – I still have all my copies.

• If you care to share any recent experiences or exercises with MB guests, please don't hesitate.

FER's warnings to which you refer were certainly prophetic.

• There was indeed blessing from God in a rich ministry of Christ and the assembly – through CAC, JT and others who came after FER.

• But in time – as with Israel of old – the possession of light puffed up many.

• The departure of JT – as of Paul in his warning to the elders of Ephesus – and his spiritual influence and leadership was taken advantage of by some who desired pre-eminence.

• The result, as we say, is history – sad history indeed. Sadly, there are many younger ones who know nothing of the earlier times of blessing and joy.

• I seek the Lord's help to enlighten and encourage such to reclaim their heritage.

I certainly will advise if a CD of the ministry of CAC and FER ever appears.

• Unfortunately it seems unlikely as there is little interest generally in FER. You, perhaps, are one of the few from other persuasions who place any value on his ministry.

I hope to hear from you from time to time and may the blessing of the Lord be on you,

Yours in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: John D Vedder
Thu, 17 Feb 2000

Dear Gordon,
Thank you for your response – it was good to hear from you. Yes, over a quarter century had elapsed since our earlier contact and the final issue of "Until" magazine.

As you may be aware, Mike Hagan has been with the Lord since 1979. He had suffered from a congenital heart problem from birth, and his health was always precarious.

Your desire, with the Lord's help, to enlighten and encourage younger ones to reclaim an earlier heritage of blessing and joy is certainly commendable, as is the name or title of your Internet site.

• As FER emphasized in his last years, the pathway for today is essentially individual, although we can and should appreciate all opportunities for interaction with all who are indeed "My brethren."

I found your posted article by S. M. Anglin on baptism quite helpful, and have passed it on to a few others locally.

• I was long familiar with Wycherley's pamphlet on the same subject, but Anglin's was new to me.

• Like yourself, I found that clear teaching on this subject is valuable for gaining an overall perspective on many related matters.

• I have also found some of the biographical sketches on MB rather interesting, since I had known some of these brethren only by name or by their ministry.

Attached are attempts of mine at poetry, the theme of both is Phil. 2. I thought they might be of interest to you.

May our Lord bless you in your endeavors for Him.

Yours in Christ Jesus, John.

To: John D Vedder
Fri, 18 Feb 2000

Dear John,

Thanks for your words of appreciation and encouragement, and your fine poems.

Check "Site News: KBT report" re CD-ROM possibility.

When you have time I would be interested to hear how you have fared over the past 25 years – and your current connections.

• I have heard vague rumours of a rift in the "reunion". Such happenings are always sorrowful. Can you confirm? Privately if you wish.

Yours in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: John D. Vedder
Sun, 27 Feb 2000

Dear Gordon,
Thanks for your note and news about the CD-ROM possibility in the KBT report.

As for the rumors of a rift in the "reunion," they are certainly true. The "Re-united Brethren" are again the "Re-divided Brethren" (RB acronym unchanged!), thereby manifesting the truth of Isaiah 2: 12 and Proverbs 16: 18 once more.

• In contrast to most past divisions, this one began on the European continent and spread worldwide from there in the 1990s.

• It appears to be in its final stages now, although the effects will probably linger on yet for a while.

• It is, of course, a sad and dreary business to be occupied with such matters, although history, as always, can be instructive to those willing to learn therefrom.

• Since I have not had any special connection with the RBs since 1976, my information about their breakup is not from personal experience but does come from a wide variety of participants.

As for my past 25 years and my current connections, a few words may suffice.

• As I indicated above, I discontinued my special connection with RBs in 1976, when I moved to Houston. We remained there until late 1998, when we moved to Arizona.

• We have interacted with a variety of believers in different ways over the years, though I do not currently consider myself in a special relation with any group currently.

• "God is faithful, by whom ye have been called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord" (1 Cor. 1: 9) does indeed define the only fellowship to which we are called, even though Christendom abounds with fellowships of man's own devising.

I have increasingly appreciated some of FER's comments on these matters, a few of which I quote:

• "I have said many times if I were challenged as to my connection with any body of christians on earth I would say that I have no connection with any body special and I would mean it."

• "I have no more connection with one than another; the only difference is we cannot all walk together, but walking does not establish any special connection."

• "Fellowship is universal. In a way I have fellowship with persons in system as with others … I would seek to walk in the light as God is in the light, and if another man does that I would walk with him … If a man has his elbows out you cannot walk very close to him … We have to get out of the idea of a special and select community which is a little pattern church – It is right to walk together if we are agreed. Then we are right in seeking as far as we possibly can to act in the light of the church, but with the sense that we are not the church. That is the only guidance or direction that we have. We do not assume to be anything, but to act in the light of the church …"

Obviously I could go on and on, but already my "few words" are becoming many, and so I forbear.

• I know you are already familiar with them, but I quote them only to give you an idea of what has influenced my own convictions.

Another poem is appended. Grace be with you.

Yours in Christ Jesus our Lord, John.

From: John Vedder
Subject: Until we all arrive...
Tue, 16 May 2000

Dear Gordon,
Looking at the MB Mailbox for May, I noted your recent correspondence with Max Weremchuk and saw some other familiar names mentioned.

• Although I have never met Max, I have read his interesting biography of JND.

As for some of the issues you alluded to, I enclose two attachments which may elucidate some of them to you, if you care to wade through them.

• They may give you a clearer perspective of how these matters evolve.

I also append four more of my attempts at poetry.

Yours in Christ Jesus, John.

To: John Vedder
Wed, 17 May 2000

Dear John,
Glad to hear from you again! Thanks for your poems, which I am posting in the Mailbox for now.

Thanks as well for the two attachments.

1. The Lake Geneva Conference Report, March 1999

2. The Wayne letter, September 11, 1999.
   • They are some help to understanding the issues, except for how it all began.

You said earlier, "In contrast to most past divisions, this one began on the European continent and spread worldwide from there in the 1990s".

• Perhaps the items Max is having forwarded will shed some light.

The Wayne letter is a brief and predictable response to the "wrong doctrines and practices" which were said to be confirmed in the lengthy Lake Geneva Conference Report.

• On the surface, there seems to be a reprise of the divergence of the ways amongst the "Grant" group in the 1930's.

Although not personally involved, and not sharing either viewpoint, one cannot but be deeply saddened at such happenings.

• But our feelings however deep cannot approach those of our blessed Lord Jesus.

• Our lack of "diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace" has brought sorrow to Him and reproach on the truth for which we claim to stand.

I recognize some names, and many surnames, in both documents.

• A recent report on PBlist mentioned Bill Van Ryn accompanying several from various groups on a mission to Costa Rica.

• Many whom I recall, and whose names might have appeared in earlier years, are now no doubt happily with Christ.

• I wonder about your father, having pleasant memories of his brotherly and welcoming spirit at Kenosha many years ago.

The Lake Geneva Conference Report attempts to support its position from the Scriptures, and draws attention to certain admittedly unscriptural attitudes.

• But, in my judgment at least, it appears to reason towards an already determined objective, and lacks transparency as to the inevitable consequences of its conclusions.

• There are a number of points and assumptions in the Report on which I may venture some comments as time permits.

• I realize my thoughts would hardly be welcomed by either side, but a review might be of value to some of the guests of MB and, if so, this would be sufficient reason to spend the time.

We are expecting a few visitors from the States at the end of May and look forward to having some readings together.

Thanks again for everything. I look forward to hearing from you on occasion, believing your contributions are of interest to other guests.

Affectionately in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: John Vedder
Wed, 17 May 2000

Dear Gordon,
Thanks for your message, it was good to hear from you again.

In light of your comments, I thought you might be interested in some additional attachments, although perhaps you have already seen them.

• They are in no particular order, so you'll have to sort them out yourself if you wish.

I was interested to read your comments since each of us sees such things from a somewhat different perspective. And so it should be.

• Both the fact that the body of Christ is one, and the diversity of its many members, are important aspects of the truth.

• Our failure to keep the unity of the Spirit must indeed grieve our Head, even as it also demonstrates our failure to consistently walk in the truth.

Your remark about my father made me wonder if you were aware that he departed to be with Christ in November 1993.

• I am glad he was spared involvement in the recent ecclesiastical turmoil among those with whom he walked most closely.

I'll be looking forward to any future comments you may make on the points and assumptions you mentioned.

• Although I could make some comments myself at this point in time, I prefer to wait until things become clearer to me.

There's no need to respond to this unless you wish, I'm sure MB must keep you very busy!

Affectionately in Christ Jesus, John.

To: John Vedder
Thu, 18 May 2000

Dear John,
Yes, MB does keep me busy, but I want to acknowledge receipt of the attachments.

• I have only made a cursory scan of their surprising contents.

• In comparison, the Lake Geneva report looks mild.

• It may be some time, if ever, before I am able to properly review and post comments.

• When you feel ready to make any of your own I will be glad to receive them.

No, I was not aware that your father was with Christ, but at his age I had wondered. Thank you for letting me know.

• It is good that the Lord spared him the anguish that recent troubles would surely have caused.

Till next time, or "Until ...",

Affectionately in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

To: John Vedder
Sun, 4 Jun 2000

Dear John,
Max has sent met several papers which may be of interest to you. Let me know if you would like me fo forward them.

• I'm still, as I have time, going over those you sent. What sorrow!

We had a good time here last weekend with the Paluga's from Pelican Rapids. We looked at Ruth and how it bears on us for recovery.

With love in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: John Vedder
Sun, 4 Jun 2000

Dear Gordon,
Please do forward the papers from Max to me. Perhaps they will contribute toward giving me a clearer impression of just what has happened in the nineties.

• Discerning the truth often takes time amid controversy.

Yesterday I scanned the Letters of FER (letters only, not ministry extracts) into my computer, and plan to complete a minimum of proofreading to make them useful for reference.

• Altogether the file is about 440KB in length as a text file – I do not plan to retain italics etc.

• Let me know if you ever have any interest in it; I could email it to you as a lengthy attachment, shorter zip file, or send it on a floppy in either form.

With love in Christ Jesus, John.

To: John Vedder
Mon, 05 Jun 2000

Dear John,
I am forwarding the MSW papers in 2 lots. Hope they are of use to you. I have only had a cursory look at them myself.

Yes, thank you. I would like to have your scanned file of FER's letters. Please send it as a zip file.

• Your file should prove useful for searching and for extracts to put on MB.

• You have performed a great service that others may appreciate as well. If KBT decides to do a CD-ROM of his ministry they might appreciate having your file.

Yours in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: John Vedder
Mon, 5 Jun 2000

Dear Gordon,
Thank you for the papers from MSW. It will take a while for me to read them all.

The attachment is the zip file of FER Letters in their current, somewhat crude, form; I've left them in the same format as the book for easy comparison, italics, etc.

• I may refine them later but they are usable as is.

• Feel free to pass the zip file on to any others interested.

Yours in Christ Jesus our Lord, John.

To: John Vedder
Tue, 06 Jun 2000

Dear John,
Thank you for the file which unzipped fine, and looks good in Word Pad.

I will send a copy of the file to Malcolm Withell at KBT for his interest.

Thanks again, With love in Him, Gordon.

From: John Vedder
Wed, 7 Jun 2000

Dear Gordon,
I think it may be better for you to fulfil any requests, as from a more centralized source for both it and related resources.

• But if you prefer to refer requests to me or list me as an additional source, it would be OK with me.

Yours in Christ Jesus, John.

To: John Vedder
Thu, 27 Jul 2000

Dear John,
I thought you might be interested in the attachment. It appears that MB has a number of hidden visitors of other persuasions, and through the —— connection is near the centre of a small storm.

Love in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: John Vedder
Sat, 29 Jul 2000

Dear Gordon,
It is indeed interesting, though not surprising, to see that MB has hidden visitors patrolling its pages to detect possible "transgressors", whether within or without their own ranks!

• —'s allusion to the "Inquisition bit" is quite fitting, as this has unfortunately become a hallmark of more than one section of the EBs.

• Had the Internet and email existed in Tomas de Torquemada's day, I'm sure he or his minions would have given them very careful scrutiny in their zeal to find heretics.

• Even earlier, Saul of Tarsus would have done the same, as he seached for any who were "of the way". I am reminded of Rom. 10: 2; Gal. 1: 13,14; Phil. 3: 6; Luke 12 :4,5; 1 Pet. 4: 5 when considering such zealots.

Although bad doctrine should of course be rejected, we must be careful to avoid basing our definitions of it on extrapolations of Scripture rather than on its explicit teaching.

• Another matter often lost sight of is that definitions of words such as "person", "nature", "personality", etc. change over centuries and over cultures;

• it is therefore necessary to closely examine a writer's intended meaning before jumping to hasty conclusions.

• For example, the Tome of Leo to Flavian (AD 451), bearing heavily on some of the matters in question, must be examined in this light.

• We are often too quick to trust our first, often superficial, impressions rather than to consider things in greater depth and perspective.

• Again, it is all too easy to accept the judgment and conclusions of a trusted writer than to examine the original ourselves; taking excerpts out of context is another recurring problem.

With love in Christ Jesus, John.

To: John Vedder
Sun, 30 Jul 2000

Dear John,
I have gone over the other items you sent. Thank you. Some certainly seem bent on blackening MB and all its guests. A perverted pastime!

By the way I would like to add some ministry of FER but don't have any time for typing just now. Would you be free to scan a few items? No pressure intended.

Also, Malcolm Withell said he had contacted you re the zip file of FER's letters. Has anything developed?

Yours in the Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: John Vedder
Sun, 30 Jul 2000

Dear Gordon,
Yes, I would be free to scan a few items if this would be of help.

• I have recently scanned his ministry on Hebrews from various volumes; as a zip file it is 381 KB – let me know if you ever want it.

• I am also scanning his ministry on the Corinthian epistles, but this has a ways to go yet since it is rather extensive.

• I have made numerous corrections of OCR errors in the Letters file since sending you a copy; let me know if you want the newer version.

So far I am finding the scanned versions a real help in locating things and developing more coherent concepts.

• It is very apparent to me that taking a brief excerpt out of context can lead to very misleading conclusions, but there are many willing to do this to "prove" their point.

I have had some correspondence with Malcolm Withell and have sent him some of the material I scanned, with more to follow.

• KBT is apparently well along in their JBS project and plan to do FER next.

Somewhere on MB I think I saw that you offered to provide FER's itinerary when in America. I would appreciate receiving a copy if available.

Also, have you ever seen the following item in any form?

• RAVEN (Frederick Edward) Thoughts on Genesis chapters i to iv. (London, Stow Hill Bible and Tract Depot,) [n.d.] 48p. 6.5". G67813) 3006.

• It apparently is not included in any of the current 20 volumes of his ministry. It was, however, listed in the CBAC of the library of the University of Manchester.

Yours in Christ Jesus, John.

To: John Vedder
Tue, 01 Aug 2000

Dear John,
Your readiness to scan a few items of FER is appreciated. It is difficult to know which articles would be best to present on MB in view of limited space, and I would be glad of any thoughts on this.

• I will just suggest one now and see how we get on. It is "The Testimony …" Vol. 2: 3, the first address only.

• As I will have to format it in HTML you need not proof read as I can do that at the same time. There is no rush, just fit it in when convenient.

Yes, I certainly would like the zip file of Hebrews, the new version of the Letters – and Corinthians when you are finished. I assume these can also be made available to interested guests.

• No one has requested the Letters yet, but it is vacation time and many guests may not check the Bulletins on Site News regularly.

• I am considering some means to make the availability of such files more prominent, as I believe there are some at least who would be glad to have them.

• I have found the Letters file quite helpful myself and certainly agree it is "a real help in locating things and developing more coherent concepts".

Thanks for the information from KBT re the JBS project. I trust your labour with FER will help in making his ministry on cd-rom available sooner.

• I have a real interest in such work and hope you will be free to copy me on any matters to do with it. Some news will be of general interest and should go on MB.

Unfortunately I have never seen FER's Thoughts on Genesis 1-4. They would certainly be interesting, especially as most of his ministry was on the New Testament. Perhaps a Bulletin would help.

• There are notes of a reading on Corinthians in Ministry: F. E. Raven which also apparently did not get into the New Series, and which you might want to include in your Corinthians file.

Regarding "FER's itinerary when in America" this is covered in History: FER in America, an account of his first visit in 1898 by Mr. J. S. Allen of Birkenhead, who accompanied him. It is quite interesting. Let me know how you get on with it.

You will see that there is a new entry My Stand 2: Opposers of 'My Brethren'.

• Also you might want to check the latest from Steve Hesterman and the link to an item on his site.

With love in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: John Vedder
Fri, 4 Aug 2000

Dear Gordon,
Your suggestion of Vol. 2: 3 of FER is an easy one for me to send on to you, since I had scanned the whole series on 'The Testimony of "the "Christ"' some years ago with cruder equipment.

• I think it is an excellent choice, especially since so many are focused on themselves, or their gatherings as the testimony, rather than on Christ Himself.

• Some additional possibilities that come to mind are Vol. 1: 32 and 306 and Vol. 3: 246, although each of these may be too lengthy unless abbreviated.

• Actually, I could probably suggest something from each volume, but will have to give it more consideration.

I'll attach the first as a zip file and send the lengthy Hebrews and Letters zip files separately.

• You may certainly make them available to others as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks for the information on matters I ask about and also for the references and links which I am checking out.

• Your new entry on "Opposers…" is quite apropos in light of the situation.

With love in Christ Jesus our Lord, John.

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To: John Vedder
Mon, 7 Aug 2000

Dear John,
The new FER 'Letters' and the 'Hebrews' zip files arrived and look good.

• I have now opened a new 'Site News: Zip Files' section to hopefully draw more attention.

Thanks too for the "Testimony ..." which I hope to use shortly. If you could send the whole series which you did earlier I would be glad to have them.

Your suggestions seem quite appropriate for MB. Your further suggestions would be appreciated, and files of any you may have scanned.

I recall your daring references to FER years ago in the "Until" days, but am somewhat amazed at your depth of knowledge of his ministry.

• It may well exceed that of those of us who have been connected historically.

• It would be interesting to me to know how your interest began and progressed.

At some point I would like to be able to speak with you personally by telephone. I usually have two other regular calls on Lord's Days … and am wondering whether … would be convenient, or some other suggested time and what date. If so, I will need your phone no., of course.

Thanks again, and love in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

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From: John D. Vedder
Sat, 19 Aug 2000

Dear Gordon,
It was good to hear from you again, both by email and phone. Thanks for both. There are a few matters which I should yet respond to or mention.

John's perceptive comments on the ministry of FER are on Guests: My Answer 2: The Ministry of FER.

Some additional zip files of FER ministry which I had done previously are attached.

• Unfortunately I realized afterwards that I had not actually completed the series on the "Testimony …" earlier as I thought and said I had. I'll send them on when I get them finished.

• Scanning of FER's ministry on Corinthians is complete, but I should still correct more OCR errors before sending it on to you; the complete zip file is over 500KB so I'll split it in two.

Some of the new activity on MB is quite interesting, I think.

Love in Christ Jesus, John.

To: John D. Vedder
Mon, 21 Aug 2000

Dear John,
It was certainly good to speak with you. Thanks for the additional files which are now listed on 'Site News: Zip Files'. I may use some on MB in the coming months. We await Corinthians.

Your remarks are now on My Answer 2: Ministry of FER.

• Last night I was speaking with Andrew Robertson, a contributor and who ministered among the brethren for many years. I read your response and he was most interested in your comments, as I was myself.

Affectionately in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: John Vedder
Sep 2000

Dear Gordon,
With this note I am attaching a zip file of the complete series on "The Testimony of 'The Christ' " by FER (vol.2).

• If you ever wish to include any more than the beginning of the series on MB, as you have already done, this should facilitate doing so.

It might be worth mentioning that I have written a little piece of software which makes it easier, at least for me, to make use of long text files such as those of FER's ministry which I sent you previously.

• The software enables the user to specify a word or very short phrase, and then all occurrences of the word or phrase in a specified text file are automatically found;

• then another text file containing each occurrence in context is automatically created, where each occurrence is accompanied by a specifiable number of the lines before and after it.

• Thus the software creates a text file containing all occurrences of a given word or phrase in context, i.e., with a number of lines before and after it; this file may then be perused at leisure to gain a more comprehensive understanding of the author's view on a specific matter.

• Almost any word processor can, of course, find all occurrences of a given word in a long file, but making a file of such occurrences along with their context is ordinarily a more time consuming task.

• I am finding this software quite useful, but I do not know if you or anyone else would find it so.

Another of my attempts at versification is appended.

With love in Christ Jesus, John.

To: John D. Vedder
Mon, 11 Sep 2000

Dear John, Thanks for the full zip of "Testimony" which I am sure will be valuable. I have just sent the zips of the Letters and Hebrews to Nigel Herbert.

I would certainly appreciate a copy of your new software program. It sounds quite interesting. After I have opportunity to use it, you might consider making it available in the same way as the zip files.

And thanks for your poem. I like the emphasis in your poetry on the greatness of Christ. You are quite versatile!

Affectionately in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: John D. Vedder
Tue, 12 Sep 2000

Dear Gordon,
I was very sorry to hear about your computer crash and the ensuing problems you are having. Glad to hear that you are are the road to recovery, though it may be an arduous one.

There are tools for facilitating the conversion of web files to text files.

• One such tool that I've used is freeware called Web2text: I am attaching a zip file which explains what it is and what it does.

• If you think it might be useful to you, I could readily send you the zip file for it (about 192K). It is quite easy to use.

• No need to respond to this unless you want me to send the Web2text file. Or, if you prefer, you can download it directly (and probably more quickly) from:
  http://www.jetman.dircon.co.uk/software/index.html.

As for my own software program, I'll have to make it a bit more "user friendly" before sending it to you. Right now I'm sure you're very busy with higher priority tasks.

Affectionately in Christ Jesus our Lord, John.

From: John D. Vedder
Tue, 3 Oct 2000

Dear Gordon,
Thank you for your note and the email files on scanning etc. I can well understand the concerns expressed by KBT's manager about their publications,

• and I was glad to read your response and the all of the points you mentioned to him for KBT's consideration.

• I might also mention the rather obvious point that all of the FER files I have scanned are not from KBT publications at all:
  • as I mentioned in an earlier email, I purchased all my FER volumes in the 1960s from Stow Hill, before KBT was even in existence.

• I realize, as stated on MB, that KBT is "a successor" to Stow Hill, but there is also a definite discontinuity, e.g., as exemplified by the "green books" of JTJr, which were published by Stow Hill but not by KBT.

Having said this, I assure you that I am content to await their response to your excellent suggestions and have no wish to create problems for either MB or KBT.

• Nor do I disagree with your temporarily suspending the offer of the files on MB so as to seek to work things out in an irenic spirit.

With love in Christ Jesus, John.

To: John D. Vedder
Wed, 04 Oct 2000

Dear John,
Thanks for your confirming message. I trust the whole matter is settled soon. But what seems simple and straight-forward to me may not be so to others.

Affectionately in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

To: John Vedder
Tue, 07 Nov 2000

Dear John,
Has Malcolm contacted you yet and made any arrangements with you for scanning FER? Of course, you have done quite a bit of FER which can no doubt be integrated.

After much exercise I have decided not to post a statement of my position re ministry on the internet vs KBT's position.

• On reflection, it seems like overkill. We have the same Master, and all must answer to Him.

• An interesting article on the use of the printing press has been added to Biography: CHM: Ministry. As Daniel Soukoreff suggests, it may have some application to the use of the internet.

I would like to reinstate the offer of the FER zip files. But with work beginning towards a CD-ROM and also my desire not to appear to be in competition with KBT, it seems that some smaller samples to whet the appetite might be in order.

• Since you have done so much work on the files and may have more scanning available from time to time, I'm wondering whether you might be willing to select some items from your files for the offer.

• I don't want to burden you, or for you to feel in any sense obligated. A blunt "no thanks" without explanation is quite acceptable.

• But, if you are willing, it might be well to have a number of files – say 10 or 12, not all at once – with only a few items in each. "The Testimony" in its 2 original sections could be an example of 2 files.

In a day or so I'll be posting a message from a Frank Magaldino, whom you may know.

Bernt Lindberg has sent some information re himself and brethren in Sweden.

• He has written a history of the work in Sweden which he has not been able to have published, but the table of contents is tantalizing. I haven't asked yet but hope he may allow a chapter or so to be posted on MB.

Affectionately in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: John Vedder
Thu, 9 Nov 2000

Dear Gordon,
Thank you for your email and attachment. Thanks also for your earlier email of 14 Oct 2000.

I have been meaning to respond previously, but have delayed for several reasons, including some ongoing communication with Malcolm at KBT.

• But I do believe it is time to respond, even if some things are still somewhat unsettled. Some pertinent material is attached.

I have sent Malcolm my scanned files of FER on Corinthians, and will be sending the same on Hebrews when I finish compiling their list of contents.

• I am happy to help out, if my efforts can be of any small service to others.

• As with yourself, I do not entirely understand the position of the KBT trustees regarding the use of electronic media for distribution of KBT ministry, although the history of the century just past does shed a great deal of light on their attitude.

• While considering it, I reviewed some of JT's letters of years ago in which he expressed his desires for the Stow Hill Depot. You may find a few excerpts of interest:

Letters of James Taylor, volume 2
— About Stow Hill and its purpose —

p 255 "I am very interested in all you write about the Tract Depot. … I am in favour of spiritual ministry being available where persons in search of it could find it …" [N.B., "where" is in italics for emphasis in the original letter]

p 273 "The Tract Depot is intended to spread the truth universally through writing …"

p 297 "… I am assured you will be helped of God in seeking to make the Depot what you wish it to be – an efficient instrument for the spread of the truth and the furnishing of food for the people of God".

p 369 "… but Stow Hill is not a local Tract Depot, but calculated to serve the saints in all lands, and this should not be overlooked".

In view of these quotes, it appears evident to me that KBT has chosen to move in narrower channels than JT envisioned for Stow Hill, their predecessor.

• They are, of course, entirely free to make their own policies in regard to these matters, and so I would be cautious about scanning, using, distributing, etc. any KBT publications.

• About the older Stow Hill publications, however, I do not feel the same strictures, since Sto Hill had broader aims as evinced by the quotes above.

• But as you have indicated yourself, Gordon, it is ultimately to the one Lord and Master to whom we are all individually accountable.

My own scanning of older ministry was undertaken for my own convenience, though I am happy to share it with others who are interested.

• When I began, I had no knowledge of others scanning the same material.

• And although I would be interested, for example, in having all of FER's ministry available on a CD-ROM, I have had no intention to systematically scan all of his ministry myself or become a publisher competing with others.

In response to your question: yes, I'll select and send you some files as you asked, though it may take some time.

I continue to find the material and correspondence posted on MB of considerable interest, especially that to which you referred. You are being of real service to many of your MB guests!

Affectionately in Christ Jesus, our Lord, John.

From: John Vedder
Mon, 13 Nov 2000

Dear Gordon,
Attached are 12 individual FER zip files as you requested. A listing of their titles, source, etc is:

The details appear on Site News: Zip Files

Since most of them come from my collection of his ministry on Corinthians and Hebrews, there may not be as much variety as otherwise. Let me know if you think more variety is needed, and I'll try to oblige.

With love in Christ Jesus, John.

To: John Vedder
Tue, 14 Nov 2000

Dear John,
Thanks for your words of encouragement and for keeping me up to date on your contacts with Malcolm re the FER CD-ROM. I hope you will feel able to make some further contributions to this work.

As to ministry and the media, I appreciate your extracts from JT's Letters.

• Although they were made in very different circumstances from our own days, and we can't be sure what he would say as to the Internet,

• they certainly show a very wide hearted approach to the distribution of ministry which we do well to emulate.

Thanks very much too for the 12 zip files of FER, and the quick response.

• They look like a good choice, but if I have any further thoughts I'll let you know. Of course I'll welcome any of your own suggestions.

• You have been a great help in this whole matter, and I can't satisfactorily express my appreciation. I can only trace God's hand in bringing us into contact again after so many years.

The zip files offer is now reinstated. You might want to check it out. I have tried to cover MB's non competition with KBT. Also I've abbreviated the file name for convenience. I like your use of volume and page.

Affectionately in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: John Vedder
Mon, 8 Jan 2001

Dear Gordon,
Thank you for your recent email about Neatby's book. I had heard about it in the past but had never read it previously, not having had a copy. Now that it is conveniently available as a PDF file, I have been reading it.

• It is interesting so far, giving a somewhat different perspective than the other accounts I have read.

• It is also interesting because, as you indicated, Neatby was more nearly a comtemporary of those he writes about than the authors of the more recent accounts.

• When I have finished it, I shall better be able to say whether I too agree that it is the work of an "Edomite".

Thanks too for the update about progress in scanning JBS and FER. It is good to hear that this work is going forward, hopefully to completion in the near future.

I have not been doing much scanning mysef lately, although I have done some miscellaneous material from FER.

• I am attaching an additional FER article which you could either add to the 12 I sent previously, or substitute for one of them, or do whatever else you may wish with it; I'll send a few more as soon as I finish proofreading them.

• Recently I acquired some of the CD-ROMs offered by Les Hodgett and Shiloh: they contain quite a variety of material, rather more than one has time to assimilate.

Affectionately in our Christ Jesus, John.

From: John Vedder
Tue, 09 Jan 2001

Dear John,
So glad to hear from you again. I'll be interested in your further comments on Neatby's book. You might want to check the Mailbox for Andrew Norman as to this.

Thanks for the further FER zip file and the prospect of others. I have yet to go over it to decide how to use it.

I have Les Hodgett's CD-ROMs but have had difficulty accessing some of CHM.

• Interesting that you have the Shiloh CD-ROMs. I haven't ordered them yet but am considering doing so especially for CAC and ED.

Affectionately in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: John Vedder
Sun, 29 Apr 2001

Dear Gordon,
As your circular letter about MB's future reached me nearly a month ago, I would like to send you some thoughts about it in response.

The general question, about whether or not a particular ministry or service should be carried on after its originator has become unable to do so any longer,

• is one that I have thought about more than once in the past in connection with other ministries.

• I do not believe a universal answer can be given – rather, each case must be considered individually.

• Scripture appears to afford few examples of a ministry being carried on beyond its originator, at least being carried on in a substantially similar form.

• Elijah/Elisha is perhaps the best example of this sort which occurs to me, but Elisha had no apparent successor.

• Moses/Joshua had ministries which differed substan-tially, though there certainly were similarities as well.

• Paul/Timothy were likely quite different, though we have little information about Timothy's later ministry.

• The OT judges and kings and prophets succeeded one another with varying degrees of similarity & difference.

• I could go on but I know that you are quite familiar with Scriptural examples in this regard.

Now, on the subject on MB, I certainly appreciate the conviction and exercise which you manifested in beginning and carrying forward this ministry during the last several years.

• I am sure it has been, and continues to be, a valuable resource for many of its guests. Based on this, I would like to see MB continue, indeed until He comes.

Whether or not MB can so continue seems to me to be a matter of whether a suitably qualified successor(s) becomes available if and when the time comes for you to pass on the torch.

• At that time if someone whose convictions are sufficiently similar to your own has stepped forward, I would think that MB should indeed continue.

• If, in your judgment, no such successor is available, then it may be best to let the the more enduring portions of the site stand as a continuing, though static, resource,
  • just as the ministry of past brethren remains in printed form for the benefit of ensuing generations.

• I would, just as I said, characterize such a resource as static, but hardly as stagnant.

If MB is eventually to continue on in other hands, I think it is only right that it continue along the lines on which you initiated it.

• If someone whose convictions differ significantly (either overtly or covertly) from your own wishes to continue it, I think it would be better if he began his own Internet site
  • rather than beginning with yours and subsequently changing it appreciably according to his own ideas or intentions.

• As I'm sure you well know, far too many ministries have been begun by spiritual men, and afterwards
  • have been radically transformed by others who nominally were continuing them, but were really either "hirelings" or outright "thiefs and robbers". May it never be so for MB!

Perhaps it is best if I send these thoughts to you at this point without extending them and becoming overly specific.

• I trust you have been hearing from many of the others to whom you sent your circular, and that you are experiencing that "in the multitude of counsellors there is safety".

• My interest and prayer for the future of MB continue.

Affectionately in Christ Jesus, John.

To: John Vedder
Thu, 03 May 2001

Dear John,
Thank you very much for taking the time to send your encouraging comments and wise counsel on the future of MB.

• It is much appreciated, especially as knowing you must have gone through similar exercise as to 'Until' and also, if I am correct, Believers Bookshelf.

• I had hoped for a greater response, but yours is only the fifth reply. The other four were positive as to continuing.

I had not intended to make known my concerns generally just yet, but I am encouraged to post your good analysis in the Mailbox.

• I am thankful for the suggestion of "static". It is much more dignified than my somewhat negative "stagnant".

If you have any further thoughts, they would be most welcome. We only had the slightest contact, and that by letter, many years ago,

• but I greatly value our recent contacts and being able to share with and gain from the counsel of one of your experience and somewhat different background – a kindred spirit, I believe.

If you have not seen it already, the April bulletin as to the JBS CD may be of interest, also correspondence with Robin Garvie, John Gossett, Murray Linton (and Phil Gasston's reply) and 'Anonymous 2'.

• I have no doubt of the worth of the historical and ministry articles on MB – and without which there would be no MB – but I confess to a very deep interest in, and thankfulness for, the correspondence which has developed.

Affectionately in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: John D Vedder
Sat, 26 May 2001

Dear Gordon,
Thank you for comments and for the news about the future of MB. I was glad to hear about the responses you had received and hope more have come in since.

Thanks too for pointing out to me some other recent contributions and correspondence – I found them of interest.

In regard to George Cutting, I include an excerpt from N. Noel's "The History of the Brethren": [See details in Guests: Mailbox DEF for Reg Flowerdew.]

Speaking of FER, I recently found a quote of his which I thought was striking in view of events decades after his death …

The balance of John's letter is in Guests: My Answer 3: Church a Persecutor.

Affectionately in Christ Jesus, John.

To: John D Vedder
Tue, 05 Jun 2001

Dear John,
There have been no further replies re future of MB since I wrote. I do hope there is prayer going up from those not heard from. I have yet to find time to explore the possible problems of access etc., for others.

Thanks for the copy from Noel re GC which I have forwarded to Reg Flowerdew. It's a pity that so little is available on such brothers.

Thanks too for the FER quote. I find I had marked it some years ago but had not recalled it. His remarks are certainly prophetic …

The balance of my reply is in Guests: My Answer 3: Church a Persecutor.

Affectionately in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

To: John D Vedder
Mon, 11 Jun 2001

Dear John,
With your knowledge of FER, perhaps you could help me. I'm trying to find the source for an extract of a June 1902 letter of FER quoted by A. J. Gardiner in his 'Recovery and Maintenance of the Truth'.

• It is on page 134 of the 2nd edition (blue cover) and begins, "Difficulties have arisen in the minds of some whom I esteem as to certain expressions in the American notes on the subject of eternal life …"

• I can't locate it in the letters, searching your file. Don't go to undue trouble.

Affectionately in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: John D Vedder
Tue, 12 Jun 2001

Dear Gordon,
After looking at both my computer files and the printed books, it is quite apparent that the extract included in AJG's book (which I have) was for some reason not included in the Letters or Vol 20.

• So I'm sorry that I can't help you regarding its source, since I have no knowledge thereof.

• Thanks for bringing it to my attention, as I'll now include it in my Letters file.

• I think I saw it years ago in AJG's book, but I had quite forgotten about it.

• One wonders about the reason for this omission as well as for some omissions from FER's ministry volumes, but I know nothing about their cause.

Affectionately in Christ Jesus our Lord, John.

From: John D Vedder
Mon, 02 Sep 2002

Dear Gordon,
Since we last communicated many months ago, I have benefited frequently from MB and would therefore like to express my continued appreciation for all of your efforts in maintaining & expanding your site.

• My thanks should also go to Jeff, with whom you are now sharing editorial responsibilities. I was glad to learn that he has fulfilled your earlier hope for editorial help. May you both be encouraged to press on.

Because of its being mentioned on MB, I have obtained the new hymn book from Tom Hawkins, and have enjoyed this extensive effort of its New Zealand compilers and Tom's contributions as well.

I was also glad to learn about Dover Bible Fund as it should facilitate obtaining the publications they carry.

The recent availability of the written ministry of JBS and FER on CD-ROMs from KBT certainly facilitates making good use of it. At least this has been my own experience. I have modified some simple software I wrote earlier to facilitate optimum use of the ministry for my own purposes.

• I think it is rather ironic that as technology makes such older ministry much more accessible than ever before, there appears to be a waning interest in using such opportunities on the part of so many. Perhaps this is another sign of the days in which we live.

You may remember that over two years ago I asked you about the following publication listed in the CBA of the library of the University of Manchester:

• RAVEN (Frederick Edward) Thoughts on Genesis chapters i to iv. (London, Stow Hill Bible and Tract Depot) [n.d.] 48p. 6.5".

• It was of interest to me since it was not in the FER ministry volumes. More recently, I obtained it on loan from David Brady, and was surprised to see on its cover that its author was E. Raven rather than FER – which explains why it is not included in the latter's ministry volumes.

• On reading it I concluded that the author is probably Edward Raven, FER's eldest son.

• Since you had expressed some interest in it, I have attached a text version in zip format. If you have time to look at it, perhaps you could tell me if you think my conclusion about its author is correct or not. I think it is well written and still of value on its subject.

Affectionately in Christ Jesus our Lord, John.

Christ Jesus the Lord, now to heaven ascended,
To earth shall return, by His angels attended,
Triumphant He'll come, with great power and glory,
His reign here on earth to begin.

Sun of righteousness shine, shine forth,
All the darkness dispel!
Root of David, take dominion,
Be exalted, O Lord!
Be exalted, amen.

Christ Jesus the Lord, now in heaven exalted,
Sin's reign here through death, He forever has halted,
He'll rule all the earth, in millenial splendor,
As God by His prophets foretold.

Christ Jesus the Lord, then His rule here extending:
`Til enemies all `neath His feet low are bending,
Annulling all rule, all authority, power,
He'll give up the kingdom to God.

Now unto the King eternal,
The invisible, immortal,
To the one and only wise God:
Ever glory be.

Glory be to God the Father,
Glory to the Son our Saviour,
To the Holy Spirit, glory!
Now and endlessly.

To: John D Vedder
Tue, 03 Sep 2002

Dear John,
How good to hear from you again. It has been a long time since we have corresponded, and in the last few days I have planned on writing but had not got to it.

• Thanks too for the poetry/hymns – soon our eternal occupation as He leads the praise.

Have you noticed the visit to MB by your niece Janet Hartkopf?

Thank you for your kind remarks as to MB and the service. Such encouragement is cheering indeed.

For some time there haven't been any requests for the FER zip files. The availability of the FER cd may be the reason.

• In view of this, I have been wondering whether the offer should now be discontinued and some, if not all, of the articles be posted on 'Ministry by FER'.

• As you supplied the files I would not act without your thoughts.

I was glad to learn that you are helping the Belfast group with the scanning for the cd. It is good that so many are ready to join in this work.

• Your comment as to cd's is quite right that "it is rather ironic that as technology makes such older ministry much more accessible than ever before, there appears to be a waning interest in using such opportunities on the part of so many. Perhaps this is another sign of the days in which we live".

• Our hope is that those who find MB will be stimulated to avail themselves of the great "opportunities" of which, in our younger years, we could not even dream.

Yes, I recall you asking about 'Thoughts on Genesis' and I'm certainly glad of your energy in following it up. Thanks very much for the file.

• I have not yet read it thoroughly but as it was published by Stow Hill in the early years it is quite likely that the author is indeed Edward Raven, FER's eldest son.

• In Biography: F. E. Raven: His Family Life it is mentioned that, "for his scholarly capabilities", Edward Raven helped with the footnote revision for the 1939 JND Bible.

• I am writing to KBT to try to obtain confirmation. It would likely be a good addition to MB. Will let you know.

I hope we can keep in touch more frequently but I know that we both have much to keep us busy.

Affectionately in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: John D Vedder
Wed, 04 Sep, 2002

Dear Gordon,
It was great hearing from you again, and you are quite right about keeping in touch more frequently.

• In the back of my mind I had vaguely thought we had been out of touch for a little less than a year, but when I checked it was actually well over that.

• Hopefully neither of us is so busy that we can't communicate a bit more often.

Yes, I have seen that my niece visited MB not so long ago. I have not seen her since then, but shall have to ask her what she found of interest on MB whenever I do see her again.

• I see also that even my youngest brother visited MB, though he was less communicative.

As for the FER zip files, I fully concur with your suggestions. Ever since I first heard that a complete FER cd was planned, I assumed that it would replace such limited efforts as I had undertaken, and so it now should.

Your remarks about Edward Raven make me wonder whether he wrote anything else besides what we already know about.

• The vocabulary in 'Thoughts on Genesis' is similar to FER's but the writing style is distinguishably different – or so it seems to me.

If, when reading any of my poetry/hymns, you ever have any suggestions for improving their phraseology or content or doctrine, please don't hesitate to mention them.

• I welcome all suggestions for improvements and am not easily offended about such matters –

• often I already have alternative versions of some lines or phrases myself, and often I make later changes when a given phrase strikes me differently than it did originally.

Affectionately in Christ Jesus, John.

To: John D Vedder
Sat, 07 Sep, 2002

Dear John,
Thanks for your reply and comments.

I will likely leave the FER zip file offer on MB for a short time until I can post one of the items in Ministry: F. E. Raven. 'The Assembly in Four Aspects' looks like a good choice.

All I know as to writings of Edward Raven is in Biography: F. E. Raven: His Family Life which says,

• "With another brother, he is said to have written a pamphlet regarding the Glanton division of 1908".

• I have not seen that pamphlet, but it would doubtless be interesting, as would any other by him.

• I am copying this to Malcolm Withell of KBT in the hope he may be able to help us.

I appreciate your welcoming suggestions regarding your poetry/hymns and will keep this in mind.

• I have wanted to move them from the Mailbox to a Poetry page and hope time will permit in the near future.

Until next time.

Affectionately in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: John D Vedder
Sat, 19 Oct, 2002

Dear Gordon,
Just wanted to thank you for all the information you sent me earlier about Edward Raven.

• Hopefully some MB visitors will find his
  Thoughts on Genesis helpful, and also his father's
  The Assembly in Four Aspects.

• Good to see them available on your site along with so much other beneficial ministry.

Affectionately in Christ Jesus, John.

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