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My Answer: No. 4

• Gordon Rainbow     § Jeff Kuns     † Guest
• H. W. Soltau 1805-75:  Sources for Biographical Information
• Sonship of Christ:  Sources for 'Incarnational Sonship'
• Major Groups of Brethren in UK: What are the Differences?
• Governmental Consequences: Sins after Conversion, Divorce
† Biography: Early Brethren:  Thoughts of Max Weremchuk
• One-City-One-Church:  Did WN get this from 'exclusives' ?
• Dispensational:  Explain 'dispensational pretribulation rapture'
• EB's Attempt to Contact Some Rejected 30 Years:  Why Now?
• Is Baptism Necessary to be Considered a Christian?
• Will the Spirit ever lead anyone to look at Himself or His work?
 
 



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H.  W.  SOLTAU
Randal Kulp seeks sources of biograpical infromation

To: Randal W. Kulp
SentinelKulpATjuno.com
Pennsburg, PA, USA
Tue, 16 Jul 2002

Dear Randy,
In regard to your inquiry:

H. W. Soltau

HWS seemed to be a prominent supporter of BWN in the early years at Plymouth.

I hope this is of some help to you.

In our Lord, Gordon.

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SONSHIP  OF  CHRIST
Keith Saare seeks resources to further his studies into
'Incarnational Sonship'

To: Keith Saare
KSaareATcs.com
El Paso, TX, USA
Wed, 17 Jul 2002

Dear Keith,
Welcome to 'My Brethren' and thanks for your generous comments. Your interest in our Lord's Sonship is refreshing.

I'm not aware of anything positive online beyond those items on MB and listed in the introduction to Doctrine: The Sonship of Christ.

Even positive published materials are rare. Here are some reliable publications.

  1. Doctrine: The Sonship of Christ: Remarks on a pamphlet by A. J. Pollock entitled 'The Eternal Son': C. A. Coates.

  2. Letters of James Taylor (2 volumes). There are numerous references, some of which are on MB. This set is temporarily out of print but, at one time recently, KBT had some used sets available at no charge.

    The Dover Bible Fund, Pennsylvania, lists:

  3. The Personal and Mediatorial Glory of the Son of God: C. A. Coates. This is the same as (1) except that remarks of AJP are not included. It was a great help to me as a young believer.

  4. Remarks on Eternal Sonship: C. A. Coates. This may be the same or similar to (1).

  5. Letters : C. A. Coates. This has numerous references but the most significant are already on MB. Also available from KBT.

Sadly the prestige of the ancient creeds weighs more heavily with most than the teaching of the Holy Scriptures.

Closely related to our Lord's Sonship is the truth of His Person and Manhood which is also generally misunderstood.

Keith, I trust the above may be of help in your studies into the important and holy subject of our Lord's Sonship. I'll be glad to hear how you get on with your studies.

In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

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MAJOR  GROUPS
OF  BRETHREN  IN  THE  UK
What  are  the  Differences ?
Peter Stanbridge asks for clarification

To: Peter Stanbridge
home_stanbridgeAThotmail.com
Stow on the Wold, Gloucestershire, England
Sat, 10 Aug 2002

Dear Peter,
Welcome to 'My Brethren'. I'm glad to learn that you have found MB interesting and plan to return.

Your confusion as to various groups of brethren is quite understandable, and I will attempt to clarify the situation.

Some relevant points have already been touched on in Guests: My Answer 2: Some Groups Referred to on 'My Brethren' which should be reviewed.

As to "the differences between the various current major groups of brethren congregations in the UK":

1. 'Open' meetings – with which you have some familiarity from New Zealand – because of their independency and heterogeneous character may vary considerably in beliefs and practices from meeting to meeting.

2. Most of the exclusive groups which developed from 1881 on – except those in 4 below – have over the years amalgamated in the 'reunited' group which first formed c. 1926.

3. One exclusive group – originating in the UK but now mainly based in North America – rejected reunion, but in 1992 it divided into 'Perth' and 'Nepean'.

All the exclusives in 2 and 3 generally hold the same doctrines, but have refused further opening up of the truth as set out in much of the ministry featured on MB.

4. Brethren who, since 1890, continued in fellowship with J. B. Stoney, F. E. Raven, C. A. Coates, J. Taylor Sr., and others whose ministry is featured on MB,

Some brethren, discerning what was happening, withdrew in the early 1960's.

Those who withdrew from the Jims in 1970 were known as 'Aberdeen'.

Those in Stow on the Wold to whom you refer are almost certainly connected with the Jims.

The fact that you say "they are extremely welcoming and friendly to us as neighbours" seems out of character for the Jims.

In past years, before 1959, the brethren were always genuinely friendly and outgoing to others, including strangers.

I trust the above will be of help to you, Peter, and look forward to your comments and, possible, discoveries as to Stow on the Wold.

In the Lord, Gordon.

From: Peter Stanbridge
Tue, 20 Aug, 2002

Dear Gordon,
Thank you very much for your reply. While I find it complicated, your explanations have helped me considerably.

I do not attend a Brethren church, but I was keen to understand it a bit more, but I do appreciate the obviously wonderful Christian spirit in your web-site and replies to my question,

Regards, Peter Stanbridge.

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GOVERNMENTAL  CONSEQUENCES
Sins  after  Conversion,  Divorce  etc.
Correspondence with W. Eugene Tucker

From: W. Eugene Tucker
tuckerweATsbcglobal.net
Tampa, Florida, USA
Thu, 26 Dec 2002

I want to give a brief personal background before I pose my inquiry.

I am 55 years old, have attended a local gospel hall since birth – 3d generation – accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour at 16, married a saved woman – we were baptised the same night – at 19,

Then, after my children left the home, I succumbed to my fleshly lusts and divorced my faithful wife.

To: W. Eugene Tucker
Thu, 02 Jan 2003

Dear Eugene,
As to your inquiry, my answer is not likely to be pleasing to you in any way.

I could not advise anyone to stay in a 'church' – even non-denominational – because of clericalism and other factors,

The following will help explain my position:

However it is not simply a question of whether to move or not. As I'm sure you know, the present situation is a result of your original separation from your wife.

Your reconciliation took place in her new circumstances. To return to the gospel hall without her would create a similar situation for her as when you first left her.

There is a further point to consider. It is a divine principle that "whatever a man shall sow, that also he shall reap", Galatians 6: 7.

Your only recourse is to be before the Lord as to your wife, and with your wife as to fellowship. This may take time and will require mutual patience and understanding.

Eugene, I trust that you will carefully consider all of the above.

Your in our Lord, Gordon.

From: W. Eugene Tucker
Mon, 13 Jan, 2003

Greetings in the name of our Lord and Savour Jesus Christ:

Thanks for your Spirit-led response. I don't know what kind of response I was expecting; therefore, I am not disappointed with your response.

With repect to your comment about patience and mutual understanding, my wife has suggested that we locate a neutral place to fellowship. Any thoughts on that plan to avoid a breach?

Again thank you for your counsel. Eugene

To: W. Eugene Tucker
Mon, 28 Jan, 2003

Dear Eugene,
It is encouraging that you received my previous reply in the spirit in which it was written. As to your further questions:

Governmental consequences are the results of some sin, or course of sin. As quoted before "whatever a man shall sow, that also he shall reap", Galatians 6: 7.

An elder is indeed to be "blameless" AV, or "irreproachable" JND.

"Irreproachable" means that the overseer must have such a public character that no public charge or complaint can be brought against him which would reflect on God or the holiness of His house.

All this remains true even in this day when there are no apostles to appoint, or authorize the appointment of, elders.

Your wife has suggested that you "locate a neutral place to fellowship". I can quite understand this from her standpoint as it would probably avoid the embarrassment that would result from returning to your original meeting.

We may and do approach matters from a different perspective and background, but I believe that prayerfully weighing the Scriptures will make clear God's viewpoint, which is the real issue.

Be assured of my continued interest in you and your wife. May you work things out together mutually and to God's glory. Feel free to write again if you wish.

In our Lord, Gordon.

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BIOGRAPHY:  EARLY  BRETHREN
Thoughts of Max Weremchuk, JND Biographer.
See also Biography: J. N. Darby Research Papers.

From: Max S. Weremchuk
Mon, 17 Mar 2003


Max S. Weremchuk Hi Gordon,
From the start of my research on the Darby biography to its completion in the late 1980's I was not an 'academic' in any sense of the word.

But justified criticism or not, I believe I have made an important observation.

When I read the accounts of the Brethren themselves, people who lived then, their letters, their diaries, it seems as if they are completely different people in comparison to the academic and scholarly works about them.

Of course criticism should be allowed, but somehow it seems as if, in contrast to them, we know it all so much better. I have my doubts.

Sure, we are in a position at this point in time to look back and recognise influences and interconnections.

Within my circle of friends and acquaintances there are some who are prominent personalities, i.e. have name and esteem in the – Christian – world.

Why this comparison? Because I believe that we can make the same mistake in regards to studying the lives of the early Brethren.

It is our distance in time and our making these – living – persons the subject of a 'study' that can mislead us.

Religious movements do involve emotions and can be very, very subjective.

What do you think? Yours in Christ, Max.

To: Max S. Weremchuk
Tue, 18 Mar 2003

Dear Max, Thanks for sharing your 'thoughts'. I appreciate your confidence in doing so

Without responding in detail to each point, I can say that I believe what you have expressed is right on the mark.

While you say you were "not an 'academic' in any sense of the word" this may have been an asset in presenting the man – the essence of any biography.

We should hold ourselves to the highest levels of sound research and writing excellence to which we can attain,

What is needed in all service is the sense of Divine commission and personal approval.

Certainly we have all been influenced in various ways and times by others.

There is no doubt in my mind that the prime influence in all men of God throughout the ages has been

  1. the direct influence of Christ by the Spirit, and

  2. secondarily through the lives of godly persons.

Rather than explore human influence it is wisest, as I believe it is your aim,

It is my conviction that what has come to light – in teaching, practice and personal living – in the so-called 'brethren' movement, despite failures,

Thanks again for sharing. I trust that it will stimulate and encourage other guests of 'My Brethren'.

Affectionately in our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

From: Max S. Weremchuk
Wed, 19 Mar 2003

Hi Gordon,
thank you very much for your most kind email. Mails like that are very encouraging!

Yours in our Lord, Max.

From: Max S. Weremchuk
Thu, 20 Mar 2003

Hi Gordon,
I thought this excerpt from a letter of mine to someone else might interest you as well:

What you write of the Irish situation is interesting and I am proceeding along similar lines, also as to the situation in London – but I want to be careful here, for the reasons I mentioned in my letter to Gordon.

The more I read the lives and diaries of other personalities contemporary to Darby, or about schooling back then, family and social life, religious views, novels by people Jane Austen and so on and so on –

This is complicated by his being a very complex character himself. There are so many things which appear to be contradictions.

To: Max S. Weremchuk
Fom: Jeff Kuns
Wed, 2 Apr 2003

Dear brother,
I've actually been wanting to let you know for some time that I was encouraged by the last edition of JND's bio,

I have been feeling that perceptions of one's brethren, perceptions of the apostles, even our Lord seem so often to lack in the dimension of natural affection and therefore tend to be un-real.

Yours in our Lord Jesus, Jeff.

From: Max S. Weremchuk
To: Jeff Kuns
Thu, 3 Apr 2003

Thank you very much for your kind email! I was very happy to receive it.

Almost every second day new leads turn up for which I am very thankful. (Sad to say, in some cases my limited financial means prevent me from following all leads up, but some librarians and archivists are very helpful.)

My 'Darby picture' is becoming clearer. I wonder if some saints can even imagine him as a boy and young man.

I value your prayers in this endeavour.

In our Lord, Max.

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ONE - CITY - ONE - CHURCH
Glenn Haman says "I am doing research on the principle of the ground of the local church. Watchman Nee taught the one-city-one-church principle and practiced it in China. I was recently told that he got this teaching from the Exclusive Brethren. However, in his book, 'Orthodoxy of the Church' he pointed out that this teaching did not come from the Brethren. If you can help me please send info".
Compare: Guests: My Answer 3: One Leader.

Dear Glenn,
It is impossible to give a brief definitive answer, especially in view of WN's denial, but let me share what I understand.

A review of the Acts and Paul's epistles will show that

  1. in referring to a region or province – Judea, Galatia etc. – the plural 'churches' or 'assemblies' is always used;

  2. in referring to a city the singular 'church' or 'assembly' is always used.
There are no explicit references to the number of gatherings in a city but there were clearly

  1. many in Jerusalem where there "the number of the men had become about five thousand", Acts 4: 4.

    This is confirmed by the fact that Peter "came to the house of Mary, mother of John, where were many gathered together and praying … And he went out and went to another place", Acts 12: 12-18.

  2. At Corinth the Lord tells Paul "I have much people in this city", Acts 18: 10.

    Evidently they came "together in assembly", 1 Cor. 11: 17 – probably in smaller groups – although not properly understanding the Lord's supper.

    But for edification Paul says "If therefore the whole assembly come together in one place", 1 Cor. 14; 23.

  3. Paul addressed himself "to all that are in Rome", Romans 1: 7 although taking account of several gatherings in that city – Romans 16: 3-15.

  4. Paul exhorts the elders of Ephesus to care for "all the flock" – not a part of it – in that city.

Although the unity of the local assembly is generally ignored or unknown in christendom, the above scriptures would convince any serious inquirer of its importance.

It is quite possible that WN would have come to the same conclusion as suggested above from his study of the Scriptures.

However, there is a possibilty that he at least was influenced by what he may have learned from his brief contact with the brethren – or by reading their ministry.

The need for the practical expression of unity among saints in a city was a concern among the brethren as early as 1838, just ten years after they first began in Dublin.

The expression of unity and oneness was not restricted to the meetings.

I have no experience of the practice of "one-city-one-church" by WN and his followers and so do not know whether it goes beyond an outward formality

Lest there be any misunderstanding, I should clarify that use of the word 'assembly' does not imply any special status for the brethren – or pretension to alone be the assembly –

I trust that the above has not wearied you and may be of some interest and value.

In our Lord, Gordon.

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DISPENSATION
Dispensational Pre-Tribulation Rapture
John Shinn asks for an explanation of 'dispensational' as
used in the phrase 'dispensational pre-tribulation rapture'.

To: John Shinn
Thu, 24 Jul 2003

Dear John,
The word 'dispensation' is used to refer to particular periods of time in which God, in His sovereign ways, has put men on trial in view of reaching His final great purpose in Christ.

To be clear, 'My Brethren' accepts and supports the teaching as to dispensations and the pre-tribulation rapture by JND and his co-labourers, both contemporary and more recent.

I trust this helps, John, and look forward to your comments.

In the Lord, Gordon.

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EB's ATTEMPT TO CONTACT SOME PERSONS
THEY HAVE REJECTED FOR OVER 30 YEARS
See the email from Lana Guy who asks for an explanation.
She writes as to her step dad's family,
"Why now? … They want to meet us now after my Dad has been kicked out of the family for 30 years and they cannot really associate with us or have a family meal together? … Why is my 14 year old brother saying to me, 'Why won't my Grandparents talk to me? What did I do?' Is this right?"

Wed, 01 Oct 2003

Dear Lana,
Thanks you for writing. You are courageous and wise to seek for an explanation of the family situation you describe.

First, let me clarify a few matters. We live in Toronto and are 74 years old.

The 'brethren movement' began in 1827 when some Christians left the denominational churches so that they could meet together, without the need of a clergyman, for the Lord's Supper.

A few years later another person gained a dominance and introduced legal and Pharisaical doctrines which continue to cause much damage and sorrow.

Among other sad matters, this legal and unscriptural teaching resulted in the break up of families, husbands and wives separated, parents and children separated and prohibited eating with any not in that group.

Recently a new 'universal' leader has ordered that attempts should be made to recover persons who had been wrongly excommunicated or children who had been expelled.

I'm not sure whether this answers all your questions but I hope it will help you explain the situation to you brother who has certainly not done anything wrong.

This web site was started with the hope of helping some who had suffered from the legal system introduced in 1959. See the Home Page and A Personal Message to My Brethren.

I feel deeply with you the hurt that you and your family have suffered and are suffering. Contact now, as enticing as it may be, will only eventually lead to more sorrow.

As you say, I believe that you "are not bad people", but even 'good' people need a Saviour.

If you need any clarification or any more information don't hesitate to write.

May the Lord bless you and your family with His comfort and His salvation.

Sincerely, Gordon Rainbow.

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IS  BAPTISM  NECESSARY  TO  BE  CONSIDERED  A  CHRISTIAN?
A reply to an interesting question from William M. Willcox.

Mon, 15 March 2004

Dear William,
Welcome to 'My Brethren'. We appreciate your confidence in asking the question:

Not knowing the background of you and your wife, some preliminary remarks may be in order.

In addition to the Lord's own command, in Matthew 28: 18-20 and Mark 16: 15-16,

Therefore I am convinced that, to be recognized as a 'Christian' based on the Scriptures, it is necesary for a person to be baptized.

Yours in the Lord, Gordon.

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WILL  THE  SPIRIT  EVER  LEAD  ANYONE
TO  LOOK  AT  HIMSELF  OR  HIS  WORK?
Daniel Soukoreff writes, "I would appreciate your thoughts on this comment of CHM forwarded to me by Heino Promm. My first thought was that the picture in Genesis 24 did suggest that after Christ has His place then the Spirit would be honoured in His place. 'I will not eat until I have made know my business' ".
Heino Promm wrote: "When the comforter is come" – Read John 16:7-15 :
"When the comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me", John 15: 26. "Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth; for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak; and He will show you things to come. He shall glorify Me; for He shall received of Mine and show it unto you. All things that the Father hath are Mine; therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine and shall show it unto you.", John 16: 13-15.
"The coincidence of these words with the testimony of Abraham's servant is instructive and interesting. It was by telling of Isaac that he sought to attract the heart of Rebekah; and it is, as we know, by telling of Jesus, that the Holy Ghost seeks to draw poor sinners away from a world of sin and folly, into the blessed and holy unity of the body of Christ. 'He shall take of Mine and show it unto you'. The Spirit of God will never lead any one to look at Himself or His work, but only and always at Christ. Hence, the more really spiritual any one is, the more entirely will he be occupied with Christ". C. H. Mackintosh.

Fri, 8 Jul, 2005

Dear Daniel,
We respect CHM but it seems that his thoughts were based on the KJV which is unclear.

In fact the Spirit does speak of [or about] Himself and His service in Romans 8: 1-27, 1 Corinthians 3: 9-16, throughout the early part of Acts and many other passages.

This all shows he importance of weighing all the relevant scriptures. 2 Peter 1: 20. I learned many years ago that a false argument proves too much and therefore proves nothing.

See the following:

Guests: My Answer 1: "To Whom do you Pray?";

Doctrine: Addressing the Holy Spirit;

Ministry: J. Taylor 4: The Spirit as Seen Objectively in the Book of Acts.

I hope this is of help. In our Lord Jesus, Gordon.

Fri, 8 Jul, 2005

Dear Gordon,
These are helpful comments especially as to what you mention of the Spirit's speaking of Himself and His service.

Frankly one of the challenges these last years has been a lack of older brothers to talk over the scriptures with, so thanks again, Daniel.

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