S.N.C. Would this remembrance give a richer note of praise to the service of God?

G.R.C. I think it would. We do not come together to remember these things, we come together to remember the Lord, but this would be the background.

E.A.K. Would it be like the worshipper in the land, in Deuteronomy, who goes back to Jacob his father being a perishing Aramean?

G.R.C. It would. We get the idea of remembering in Deuteronomy. When they were in the land they were to remember.

C.H. Could you help us as to the comparison between this section and 1 Corinthians 12: 13, where the Jews and the Greeks are referred to but as all having been baptised into one body?

• The two are brought together there, but as forming the body of Christ in the responsible setting, whereas here it is in view of approach.

G.R.C. So that the reference to the body here is that He might reconcile both in one body to God by the cross.

J.T.Jr. With reference to Egypt, we then could not bring anything of Egypt with us, in the approach. Is it significant that the rolling away of the reproach is in the early part of Joshua?

G.R.C. Yes, indeed. So that in the references in the verses that follow we have what is new. There is no trace of Egypt in the new man nor in the one body.

J.T.Jr. Then how do you view those persons who are still in associations, in regard to approach?

G.R.C. If they are taking up the exercise, and facing it to the best of their ability, I would say they have liberty of approach.

• The apostle does not suggest disqualification in Corinthians, although there were many things yet to be adjusted.

• If there were resistance, and rejection of the truth, it would be a different matter.

• He does not even suggest in Corinthians disqualifica-tion from levitical service.

• At the end of the first epistle he exhorts the whole company, his beloved brethren, to be firm and immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord.

J.T.Jr. I do not quite follow that the apostle does not refer to the fact of dealing with evil in chapter 5. That would be paramount in approach to God.

G.R.C. Quite so. That evil was blatant and had to be met at once.

J.T.Jr. Well all evil is evil, no matter how great the magnitude of it.

G.R.C. We see divine wisdom operative in Paul in the different way he met the different kinds of evil referred to in the two epistles to the Corinthians.

A.P.A. It is remarkable that, on two occasions, the people are said to have worshipped in Egypt. Exodus 4: 31, 12: 27.

G.R.C. The light of God coming into their souls led them to worship.

J.S.E. Would we not get help if we followed this section in Ephesians 2 from the standpoint that the brethren in Ephesus were holy and faithful in Christ Jesus?

• Could this beautiful thought of access as it is presented here be put before them if they were involved in anything evil?

G.R.C. We have to take account of the state the apostle is addressing. As you say he is unfolding things here which he did not unfold to the Corinthians.

J.S.E. And he could not; therefore he has to exhort them to come out and be separated.

• But does he not address the Ephesians because they are out and are separated? And therefore the greatest features of the assembly are brought forward in this epistle.

G.R.C. He says to the Corinthians that he spoke wisdom amongst the perfect; he was restricted in what he could bring before them.

• But we have to take account of exactly what he does say in those two epistles.

• And we are assuming that brethren are coming out. We would give our brethren the credit for pursuing the exercise with honest hearts before God.

J.M. Brothers who are in these associations, and remaining in them, could not be abounding in the work of the Lord, could they?

G.R.C. We are not suggesting brothers remaining in them. I referred to his exhortation to the Corinthians.

J.M. But does he not keep the abstract thought in mind as to the saints throughout Corinthians?

G.R.C. I think that is the basis on which we can seek to help one another, and even wait upon one another in a right sense, because we can take the abstract view. His exhortation was addressed to his beloved brethren.

W.C. Even in this epistle, chapter 4: 17 “This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye should no longer walk as the rest of the nations”, as if they still needed to be exercised as to anything that was of that nature, and to forsake it.

G.R.C. That is helpful, because, as to matters of evil, they beset us at all times.

• We have got specific things before us at the present time; but there is the whole matter of walking as the nations walk. If we do so it will certainly lead to disqualification.

T.J.G. What was in your mind when you spoke of brethren taking up the exercise, and facing it to the best of their ability?

G.R.C. It would have been better to have said “doing all that is possible”.

T.J.G. You mean all that is possible, short of coming out?

G.R.C. I think my meaning is quite clear. In some cases it means a process. The word quoted in 2 Corinthians 6 is from Isaiah where it says

• “ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight; for Jehovah will go before you, and the God of Israel will be your rearguard”, Isaiah 52: 12.

• Prior to that it says, “Go out from thence, touch not what is unclean … be ye clean, that bear the vessels of Jehovah”.

J.T.Jr. On that basis our brethren in unions could still be in them.

G.R.C. Not at all.

J.T.Jr. They certainly could if you just go out slowly.

G.R.C. I am quoting scripture. It does not speak of going out slowly.

J.T.Jr. Yes, but what does the scripture mean, that you don’t go out in haste? It is not saying that you do not leave the evil.

G.R.C. Certainly not. But we cannot disregard the scripture, as to what it does mean.

J.T.Jr. I am not disregarding any scriptures. The scripture is in 1 Corinthians 5, “Put the wicked man out from amongst yourselves”. That is wickedness.

G.R.C. But we are not speaking of 1 Corinthians 5, but of 2 Corinthians 6, and Isaiah 52. We must keep each scripture in its own setting.

P.L. In the purging in 2 Timothy 2, the word means “get rid”, that suggests a right kind of haste.

• I should have thought the scripture in Isaiah bore on the dignity of their departure, that they did not go out as a rabble; they went out in rank.

G.R.C. That is just what I would think. They go out in military array, and the Lord goes before them. That in itself should encourage the brethren.

• It would involve the arms of righteousness on the right hand and on the left in the manner of going out.

J.M. Was not the Exodus in haste, although they went out in rank. Did they not go out of Egypt in haste?

G.R.C. We must not set one scripture against another, nor use one to cancel out another. Each must be kept in its own setting.

• The return from Babylon was different from the exodus from Egypt, for it was carried out with deliberation and forethought, as Isaiah indicates.

• But there is one way in which the two goings out are similar, and that is, in both cases, the Lord went before them and He was their rear-guard.

• Like ourselves, the captives had forfeited all rights, yet God, as it were, says, “You shall go out with the same dignity with which you went out of Egypt”.

C.H. Do you think what it says in the end of Exodus 14 might bear on this matter, “and Israel saw the great power with which Jehovah had wrought against the Egyptians; and the people feared Jehovah, and believed in Jehovah, and in Moses his bondman”?

• Is it a question of divine authority, and not just the dictates of brethren, being before the soul?

G.R.C. That is most important. The object in ministry is to lead souls to act in their own faith before God, not on a human dictate.

• [See 2 Corinthians 1: 24: “Not that we rule over your faith, but are fellow-workmen of your joy: for by faith ye stand”.]

• And so the scripture in Isaiah is divine authority: “Depart, depart, go out from thence, touch not what is unclean; go out of the midst of her, be ye clean, that bear the vessels of Jehovah”. It is imperative.

R.M.Y. Do you not think that the scripture in Isaiah would suggest that they had not lost the initiative.

• They are not being driven out, but they are going out under divine command, even as they went out of Egypt. Is there not a danger of our losing the initiative in these matters?

G.R.C. That is very good, the loss of initiative would be the fruit of culpable delay, would it not?

N.W. It says in Psalm 24, “Who shall ascend into the mount of Jehovah? and who shall stand in His holy place? He that hath blameless hands and a pure heart”.

• I wonder if the holiness and the glory of the access we have before us in Ephesians would lead us to say before God that before the next first day of the week we would be clear of everything out of keeping with it?

G.R.C. The clean hands and pure heart are essential. And each week we are called upon to prove ourselves, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

• But the completion of an exercise before the next first day of the week may not be practicable.

• Thus no such injunction appears in 2 Corinthians 6; nor indeed in scripture.

E.C. May I ask as to Abraham. He was told to come out, but there was some delay; but

• when the Spirit of God records the fact in Hebrews 11, it omits all reference to the delay, and merely says that he came out.

G.R.C. The Spirit of God through Stephen does speak of the delay; and even in Genesis 12 it says, “Jehovah had said to Abraham”. The Spirit of God makes no comment on the delay. He does not justify it in any sense.

A.B.P. Would you not say that in the context in Acts 7 there is the implication that he was hindering the Spirit, resisting the Spirit? Stephen summarises the whole history by saying “Ye do always resist the Holy Spirit, as your fathers, ye also”.

G.R.C. I would not like to go as far as to say that Abraham resisted the Spirit; he may have hindered the Spirit, but to resist the Spirit is a very serious matter.

J.S.E. The scripture Mr. W. quotes is a question, “Who shall ascend?” But James lays it on us to do something ourselves, to cleanse our hands, and to purify our hearts, and he uses two strong words in each of those cases.

• In the former he uses the word “sinners”, and in the second “double-minded”. Is there not a tendency just now, to act with this double-minded attitude, and fall back on waiting for something to happen instead of doing something ourselves?

G.R.C. No doubt there is that danger; and no doubt we are all taking this matter to heart as to purifying ourselves.

• It is a thing for all of us to look into, those in associations and those not; and, in a way, we are all in the associations if our brethren are in them.

• We have gone on with these things for years, we have not admonished our brethren.

• The apostle’s word is “Let us”. In grace he puts himself alongside the brethren. You might say, Paul does not need purifying, but he says “Having therefore these promises beloved, let us purify ourselves”.

• He does not say “Purify yourselves”, but puts himself with them, “let us purify ourselves from every pollution of flesh and spirit”.

H.V. How do you connect Ephesians 5:7 and 8, and 11 and 12 with what you are saying?

G.R.C. I think it has a distinct connection, and shows that, while the Ephesian saints characteristically were faithful in Christ Jesus, yet these exhortations were still needed,

E.C. Does not the incident referred to regarding Abraham show the patience of God, and has not God been very patient with us, and should not there be a reflection of that in our attitude towards our brethren?

G.R.C. Quite so. When Abraham did move he was given full credit. “By faith Abraham when he was called obeyed”. In that passage the Holy Spirit makes no reference to the delinquency.

C.H. At the same time do you think when light comes we are responsible to answer to it? God sometimes, when light is not with us, regards it as times of ignorance,

• “These times of ignorance God winked at, but now He commands all men everywhere to repent”.

G.R.C. One would not want to weaken that at all.

A.C.S.P. Might I ask whether you are drawing a distinction between the need of urgency where a person can get out, and the impossible situation, apparently, where one can only get out by unrighteously breaking a contract?

G.R.C. Quite so. Therefore we ought to ascertain the facts of a situation before we speak about brethren in a condemnatory way. Otherwise we become guilty of unrighteousness ourselves.

• Normally, I would say, we would give our brethren credit for doing all that is possible.

• If not, and there is delinquency of a culpable character, the Lord will make it manifest. “Let us purify ourselves from every pollution of flesh and spirit”.

• While we are thinking of associations, it should lead to a general purification inward and outward with all of us.

J.T.Jr. What I would like to point out, which I believe is the light we have received, is that the assembly is governed by Paul’s ministry, under the Lord, and we look at it from that point of view. Then we go into the types.

• But what governs the matter is Paul’s ministry, and dealing with evil is the point of 2 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 5. That is the principle that governs us. There is nothing else than that that governs the dealing with evil.

A.McG. Did not Mr. James Taylor teach us that in dealing with evil we act both on 1 Corinthians and on 2 Timothy, and the same word is used in both, and that is “purge out”. In 1 Corinthians We purge out from among us, and in 2 Timothy we purge ourselves out.

G.R.C. In 1 Corinthians 5 it is “purge out the old leaven”, the whole company were to do it. The man was to be dealt with, but that was not the only evil at Corinth.

• Where the assembly has to take disciplinary action, the action is of little value unless it leads to the whole company purging out the old leaven.

• But then, as you say, in 2 Timothy the same word is used, but we are to purge ourselves out.

I think now we should move on to our passage, having in view the access. What is brought before us is Christ Himself, and what He has done; He is our peace, He has made both one, and

• “broken down the middle wall of enclosure, having annulled the enmity in His flesh, the law of commandments in ordinances, that He might form the two in Himself into one new man, making peace; and might reconcile both in one body to God by the cross, having by it slain the enmity; and coming, he has preached the glad tidings of peace to you who were afar off, and the glad tidings of peace to those who were nigh”.

• All this precedes the thought of access. Then the word is “through him”, this blessed Person who has been made so prominent in all that is said before. And then, “by one Spirit”, or in one Spirit.

• It is the same preposition as in 1 Corinthians 12: 13, “in [the power of] one Spirit we have all been baptised into one body”, and so here, “we both have access in [the power of] one Spirit to the Father”.

J.S.E. Is there some significance that this word access is not employed in any corrective letters?

• In Romans 5: 1, it says, “we have also access into this favour in which we stand”. Romans is peculiarly a foundational and therefore a constructive letter.

• Then we have the two references in this epistle which bring in what we might call the top level of the truth.

• But there is no allusion to the expression in the corrective letters.

G.R.C. What is the reason for that?

J.S.E. Because in the corrective letters there is invariably something to get rid of. I think the scripture in 2 Corinthians is a very powerful illustration of that.

• If I am entangled in any way with what is laid out in 2 Corinthians 6 it seems to me I cannot just fit in to these perfect statements as to access.

W.C. Is the fourfold reference to peace in this passage, that there should be no disturbing element amongst us?

• If there is doubt about any that are not clearing themselves, does not that disturb the peace? It says, He is our peace, and He has made peace, and the glad tidings of peace.

G.R.C. And this is particularly peace between man and man, is it not?

W.C. Quite so. But I was thinking of the element of peace, and how the Lord has died to secure it amongst us.

G.R.C. It is a touching expression “He is our peace”. So that you mean we should be energetic to remove anything that would disturb the peace, anything connected with the old man, including the links we have been speaking about.

J.T.Jr. Should not the blood, which is alluded to in verse 13, affect us, and stir our affections?

G.R.C. Very much so – the blood of the Christ. And that is where we need to be moved, is it not, in our affections?

J.T.Jr. Well I believe it is. If the affections are pure, the inward side is right.

G.R.C. Calling on the Lord out of a pure heart means the affections are pure. If so, we shall not delay any action necessary to please Him.

F.J.F. Would it be comely for one who is still connected with these associations to remain quiet when we are going in to God, as regards his public utterances in assembly?

G.R.C. I would not like to answer that question, somebody else may do it better.

J.T.Jr. I would not say I could answer it. But I would say that we have not any partial fellowship. There are not two fellowships, there is only one.

Rem. Did not J.T. say that a person is either in fellowship or out of fellowship.

–.L. What is the difference between our becoming nigh by the blood of the Christ, and access?

G.R.C. I think being made nigh is a more general thought. The children of Israel, through the blood, were brought out of Egypt, and their whole position was that they were near to God. But then access was a priestly matter.

H.C. It says in 2 Timothy 2 that the person shall have purified himself. It does not say that he is using energy to do it, but that he has done it.

G.R.C. He thus becomes a vessel to honour, sanctified and serviceable to the Master. Purification is an extensive thing.

• The matter of associations is especially before us, but the exhortations in 2 Corinthians 6 come down to “what part has a believer along with an unbeliever”, which includes even the idea of companionships.

• Our companionships will defile us if we fraternise with those who are not committed to the fellowship.

R.W.S. And along with that is there not the thought of loyalty to the fellowship. “God is faithful by whom we have been called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord”. Not only affection for the Person, but loyalty to the fellowship.

G.R.C. That is good; and the further word as to that is helpful, “God is faithful who will not suffer you to be tempted above what ye are able to bear”.

T.V. I would like to ask as to keeping rank. There are two things that mark a good soldier, one he keeps in step, and two, he obeys the last command.

G.R.C. Quite so; and he does not entangle himself with the affairs of this life.

E.E.P. Is the son of oil linked up with the son of peace?

G.R.C. We are to look for sons of peace. The seventy who were sent out two by two were to look out for a son of peace.

• I would not say that “son of peace” is synonymous with “son of oil”, but a son of peace would become a son of oil.

• We are to look out for a son of peace, because if we secure such a one, and his house, we have a basis for the assembly in the place.

E.C.M. Would you say a word in regard to access in chapter 2: 18 “through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father”,

• and then in chapter 3: 12, “in whom we have boldness and access in confidence by the faith of him”?

• I was thinking of “through him” in chapter 2: 18, and “in whom” in chapter 3: 12.

G.R.C. As regards chapter 3: 12, “in whom” is our fixed position and status before God.

• But then it is in Christ Jesus our Lord which implies subjection to Him in our circumstances down here. We are to be right in matters of lordship.

• So it is “in whom we have boldness, and access in confidence by the faith of him”.

• I would say that passage specially has in mind the full thought of assembly service as under the eyes of principalities and authorities in the heavenlies.

J.McK. Do you think that chapter 2 has more in mind the liberty and enjoyment of relationship, whereas chapter 3 is the full thought of the sanctuary?

G.R.C. I would think so.

C.H. These many exercises connected with our extrication, and the deepened appreciation of the blood of the Christ as bringing us nigh, would deepen our appreciation of the One through whom we have access.

• The apostle does not even repeat His name, does he? These exercises, therefore, are not just to be an end in themselves, but to enrich our appreciation of the way of approach through that Person.

G.R.C. It is “through him”, the One to whom he has been referring so affectingly; “through Him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father”.

• You would say, Mr T., that this would link on with the full thought of the service as approaching the Father?

J.T.Jr. Yes, it is the presence of the Father, it is the Person. It is not the Father’s house, it is the Person Himself that is in mind.

S.G. There is much reference to the Holy Spirit in the epistle to the Corinthians in the sphere of lordship, and now much reference to the Spirit in connection with approach to the Father.

• Would these references confirm that we have liberty to respond to the Spirit in the sphere of lordship, and again just at the point when we are moving to the Father in service?

G.R.C. I think we have liberty generally in referring to the Spirit in the realm of lordship.

• For instance in reading meetings, and all that comes under the Lord’s hand, there is usually liberty in referring to the Spirit both thankfully and worshipfully;

• and, so far as I see, there is liberty for that, in a brief way, at the Lord’s supper; that is in the course of giving thanks for the emblems. The whole service is to be in the power of the Spirit.

S.G. My enquiry really was about the portion of the service immediately following the supper.

G.R.C. Well when the Lord came in, it says they were glad when they saw the Lord. The Lord comes in and takes His place as Head. He showed them His hands and His side.

L.H.R. Does the scripture “And having sung a hymn they went out to the mount of Olives” bear on what you are saying at all?

G.R.C. That is a scripture to note. We are always in danger of trying to lay down in detail what should take place in the service of God. I think it would be wrong to attempt to do that on an occasion like this.

C.H. References to the Spirit in regard of His augmentary service, if so led, are in order, surely. It is a question of what is in brethren’s minds when they use the expression.

S.G. I was raising the question as to worship to the Spirit.

P.L. But the Spirit is peculiarly engaged in magnifying Christ, and as so engaged, He is not engaging us to worship Him, the Holy Spirit, surely;

• but He is concentrating upon the greatness and glory of Christ. It is the time of Christ’s supremacy among the saints. “It is my Master”, says the servant; nothing about Himself.

Ques. Is the Spirit suitably worshipped when we are addressing God at the end of the service?

G.R.C. I take it He is worshipped then as in the oneness of Godhead. Full honours are accorded Him along with the Father and the Son.

A.J.G. You mean that it is God as known in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, who is before the saints and is worshipped.

G.R.C. Yes. So that fullest honours are then accorded are they not, to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.

A.J.G. Quite so.

A.P.C.L. But it needs to be made clear that we are worshipping God, as Mr. G. says, in that Name. God is before us. Hymn 8 so beautifully distinguishes the Persons in Their personality; but God is before us. Is that right?

J.T.Jr. I must confess I do not know a great deal about it, not very much.

Ques. When we speak of worshipping the Spirit, have we got in mind thanksgiving and praise, or is it a further matter?

G.R.C. Surely homage of heart might come in at any time. I suppose what is in mind is a vocal expression of worship to the Spirit.

• But if I am thanking the Spirit for His services, my heart may be bowed in homage to Him; in fact it is difficult to avoid that, and we would not want to.

J.S.E. Is not homage basic to any vocal expression?

G.R.C. I think so. Two words for worship are used in the New Testament, one meaning homage, stressing what is inward, the adoration of heart, and the other meaning the public act of priestly service.

• The latter word is used in Hebrews 9: 14 and Philippians 3: 3. The footnote on Hebrews 9 : 14 indicates that worship, in this sense, would include any expression of prayer or praise to a Divine Person.

W.R.M. Could we have some help on an expression which occurs in Mr. Raven’s ministry, that is, that the Spirit is the bond between the Father and the Son?

J.R.H. Mr. Raven gave the reason for it in saying that the Spirit was the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of Christ, and in that way was the bond between the Father and the Son.

G.R.C. I cannot explain what F.E.R. meant. But I know that, by the Spirit, we ourselves are brought into the flow of affection in both directions, the flow of the Father’s affections for the Son, and the Son’s affections for the Father.

• But I think we would all like more help on Ephesians 2: 18. Perhaps you would say a word, Mr. T., as to what is in your mind as to the Spirit being worshipped at this point in the service.

J.T.Jr. I think that He is the means of approach to the Father. It is not a question of worshipping Him just here, but the order is through Christ and by one Spirit we have access. The point is access here; it is the Father that is in mind.

G.R.C. Yes. But what is your thought as to addressing the Spirit worshipfully before we approach the Father?

J.T.Jr. Well I understand that if the Lord comes in to the assembly, He is on God’s side, and He is before us as Lord, in the sense of all that He has done.

• But it is the immediate matter, you might say, that he comes in as Head. That is, headship is in view in relation to the assembly; so that He has the assembly, as Isaac had Rebecca,
  • so that the relation between Christ and the assembly are in mind there, the affections; the way the Lord has the assembly all for Himself. He is free for it, and she is free for Him.

• Well then it is all the matter of Christ there; His supremacy in regard to the assembly. The Spirit is always present, as filling the matter out, but, as the Lord is the Minister of the sanctuary, I would say,
  • as Head, He would lead in regard to the worship of the Spirit, as turning us to Him;

• and it would be that the bride is really the result of the work of the Spirit, the formation of the bride is by the Spirit.

• And so I believe the Lord would say there is some thing due to the Spirit. And I think that it requires silence to be really absorbed with the thought of the Spirit as before us worshipfully.

J.O.S. Does not the Lord magnify the Spirit in John’s gospel, in chapters 3 and 4 and 14, 15, and 16?

G.R.C. So that He says as to the Spirit, chapter 14: 15, “If ye love me keep my commandments. And I will beg the Father, and He will give you another Comforter”.

• That is, it is in the lordship setting, the setting of commandments, that the other Comforter comes and is with us. I think, therefore, we should recognise His presence in that setting.

• But then the Lord says “I am coming to you” and “ye see me”. It is the power of the Spirit that we do see the Lord, and, as the Lord comes and we see Him He eclipses all; He becomes everything to us.

• And so the following chapters show that the Spirit has come to glorify Christ, and He does that in a peculiar way at the supper and following the supper.

A.B.P. Do we have a typical suggestion of the feelings of the Spirit in Genesis 24, when it says that they set meat before the servant to eat, but he says “I will not eat until I have made known my business”, and

• what ensues in the verses which follow seems to be the securing of the bride for Christ in type.

• Then after that when they say that “the thing proceeds from Jehovah, we cannot speak to thee bad or good. Behold Rebecca is before thee, take her and go away”, then it says “they ate and drank”.

• I wondered if we do not have in that type the feelings of the Spirit, that He would not look for a portion for Himself until union has been reached.

• While the scripture does not speak of union, it has in mind the securing of Rebecca for Isaac.

A.P.C.L. Might I enquire what Mr. T. had in mind when he spoke about silence in the glory of the Spirit coming before us.

J.T.Jr. Well it is the silence that is spiritual. Silence can be spiritual, and should be. To worship the Lord you have to have Him before you,

• it requires that your mind is under the control of the Spirit as you do it, and silence I think helps in these things, that you are enabled to control yourself; silence in regard to what is before you.

• J.T. has said that silence is a great matter in the service of God, it is spiritual power; in fact the sisters demonstrate it, they do not take part audibly, they are sitting in silence, there is something in that.

C.H. And that would find expression?

J.T.Jr. I think so, the matter would come into expression, if the Spirit comes before you in a worshipful sense.

A.J.G. Do you think there is any possible suggestion in Joshua? They crossed the Jordan, and then Joshua is magnified before their eyes,

• and then after circumcision has come in, the man with the drawn sword presents himself, and says “As the Captain of the army of Jehovah am I now come”,

• and Joshua is told to take his shoes from off his feet, for the place whereon he stands is holy ground, and he worships him.

• Is that a suggestion of the Spirit coming before us, and being worshipped, after the Jordan has been crossed and after the Lord has been magnified?

J.T.Jr. I would think so, I have always thought of that, that the man with the drawn sword, especially the sword, indicates the Spirit. That is, conflict is in view, but then privilege is in view too.

• Both are in view in Joshua, conflict and privilege, and I believe what you are saying is quite right.

C.H. And I think what Mr. C. said a little earlier, as to the Spirit glorifying Christ, and Christ having His true place in the assembly, coincides with what Mr T. has said now.

W.C. Did not Mr. Raven say that if the Spirit were presented objectively it would be right to worship Him, but he thought that He was not so presented.

• But has He not so been presented in ministry of recent times? Is not that a justification for us to look out for the time when the Lord would direct us to worship the Spirit?

A.J.G. Do you not think, Mr. C., that all these matters that are current amongst us are only stressing the importance of increasing spiritual sensitiveness on our part,

• so that we can recognise the Lord as Minister of the holy places, and be under His direction?

G.R.C. Yes I am sure, and the Spirit in the early part of the meeting would rapidly bring us to that I think. In fact the Lord Himself would. He showed them His hands and His side as he came in.

• Is it not important to have in mind arriving at the truth of union quickly?

A.J.G. I am sure it is.

T.U. Do you think that we need to grow in intelligence in order to discriminate?

G.R.C. I am sure we do; and especially in this matter, which seems to require spirituality in a special way, because things relative to response to the Spirit are not prescribed in the way that other things are.

• We have the Lord’s supper, we know that He is our occupation then; and we have “My Father and your Father, and my God and your God”.

• But response to the Spirit seems to be left to the spiritual intelligence and sensibilities of the saints.

C.H. So that the direction of the service is under the Lord? He is the Director, but the consciousness of all, as far as we are concerned, is by the Spirit?

G.R.C. Quite so. The basic thing subjectively is “we worship by the Spirit of God”. That runs right through the meeting. But then “we boast in Christ Jesus”; He comes amongst us, and the service proceeds under His direction.

J.S.E. What you have said about prescription and sensitiveness as to the Spirit I feel should be repeated and emphasised, because I believe it is crucial.

–.W. In the Song of Songs there is a double reference, where it says “I charge you daughters of Jerusalem that ye stir not up nor awake my love till he please”.

• Does that suggest that, after the satisfaction of the heart of Christ, we would wait for an indication from Him as to worshipping the Spirit?

G.R.C. It emphasises the idea of the sensitiveness of love, that we are not to break in before the time. “That ye stir not up nor awaken love till it please”, it might read.

J.T.Jr. Do you think the thought of “one” is to impress us. It might have read “by the Spirit”. but it says, by one Spirit.

• As we sit together in the assembly do we not feel that the spirits of the brethren are in the thing; it is one thing in the mind and heart?

G.R.C. Quite so. It was that expression that impressed me. In 1 Corinthians 12: 13, “in the power of one Spirit we are baptised”, and now here again “access by” (or in the power of) “one Spirit”, as though our attention is fastened on Him. Is that what you have in mind?

J.T.Jr. It is the one prevailing thing in the hearts of the brethren.

A.J.G. So that the saints are thoroughly unified in the matter.

J.O.S. In Luke 24, the Lord comes into their midst, the local setting, and the lordship setting. Do we immediately pass into the sphere of privilege as seen in John 20?

G.R.C. As I understand it, Luke would show that sometimes the lordship side has to be extended because of our state. We may not be ready, we may not be in a state to move on at once.

• But I believe John 20 shows what is normal. The Lord does not pursue the subject of brethren. They come together in the light of that, and we can speak and sing about it.

• We might have thought the Lord would have enlarged on that subject, but He expects us to move quickly and we should be ready to move quickly;

• and to move not only as a result of what we hear, but as a result of what we see in the manner in which He presents Himself to us.

• And so, coming in, He shows them His hands and His side. Does not that indicate that the yearnings of His heart require that we should move on to the thought of union as quickly as possible?

A.P.C.L. Does the record in John 13, which is said to be during supper, help us. The Lord had certain matters to deal with and that would be in the lordship setting, would it not? He says “If I your lord and teacher”.

G.R.C. That is so. Our state may require that the lordship setting should be extended.

G.R.C. We worship Him in His place in the Godhead at the close of the service. We worship God, the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

• But in earlier personal response to Him we recognise His Deity, and even in thanking Him for His services there should surely be homage in our hearts.

• But then we were specifically considering the suitability of response to Him at the point where the service of God in its full aspect commences, in accord with the Lord’s words “I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God”;
  • that is, after the truth of union has been entered into, and we are about to approach the Father.

• At that point we have experienced the way He has brought us to Christ, and are feeling the need of Him in the service before us. You may have something to add to that Mr. T.

J.T.Jr. Well nothing more than I said this morning. Mr. F. will probably remember his own part in other meetings, in which he alluded to the very point, that is, the taking account of the bride as having been the work of the Spirit.

• I think he will recall his own remarks in other readings with J.T. So that there is nothing that is being said, as far as I know, that does not conform with what J.T. really had in his mind.

G.R.C. Now if we might pass on to chapter 3, is not the Spirit presenting to us the service of the heavenly sanctuary in holy splendour, as under the eyes of principalities and authorities in the heavenlies?

• It is under their eyes because it is a heavenly vessel. It belongs to the heavenlies, and has a place of precedence over them in the heavenlies, though not yet there in actuality.

• It should affect our minds and spirits as we think that we form the heavenly sanctuary, having a place, according to God’s purpose, superior to the principalities and authorities that are there,

• and that they are taking account of things because God purposed that they should do so. It says that
  • God “has created all things in order that now to the principalities and authorities in the heavenlies might be made known through the assembly the all-various wisdom of God, according to the purpose of the ages, which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and access in confidence by the faith of him”.

• One would judge that these principalities and authorities can take account of the all-various wisdom of God in a variety of ways relative to the assembly,
  • but the crowning thought, one would suggest, would be in the service Godward.

J.S.E. Is the assembly viewed at this point as on the earth?

G.R.C. That is where we actually are, but, as in the service of God, in a spiritual sense, we are in the consciousness of our place in the heavenlies.

• The assembly here is the heavenly sanctuary in contrast to the sanctuary of old.

J.T.Jr. The word faith would prove that, wouldn’t it?

G.R.C. It would. Faith has to be in activity right through the service, has it not?

J.T.Jr. So it is not literally in heaven, but faith is the point which is connected with access, which, I judge, must have some connection with the Spirit, the access by one Spirit. That is, faith goes along with the Spirit, does it not?

G.R.C. It does, it is important to see that.

C.H. Faith in fact makes way for the Spirit, does it not?

G.R.C. We receive the Spirit on the principle of faith; He has come to us on that principle, and He acts in us relative to that principle.

C.H. And as the light is held in faith in relation to this great system the Spirit can operate in relation to ourselves and it.

G.R.C. And how marvellous the system is, especially as we think of the Head, because, I take it, when Paul speaks about the unsearchable riches of the Christ he is thinking of the unsearchable riches of the One who is Head of the assembly.

J.McK. Does the expression in verse 10 “now to the principalities and authorities in the heavenlies” imply that a great and glorious climax has been reached in the assembly?

G.R.C. Is it not the culmination of God’s purpose about the present time, the “now” in verse 10?

J.McK. Would it show that this very period was in the mind of God before time was?

G.R.C. It would. From the standpoint of this passage all things were created in view of the service in the heavenly sanctuary proceeding at the present time.

H.V. Could you say something about the administration of the mystery?

G.R.C. I think to understand that expression you have to consider the whole of Paul’s ministry. He develops the administration of the mystery. It begins with

• the truth of the body according to Romans 12, bearing on our relations with each other;

• continues in 1 Corinthians 12, which refers to the body relative to the Spirit and His manifestations;

• then in Colossians which treats of the body relative to the Head;

• and then in Ephesians, the union of Christ and the assembly, and what the assembly is to God.

• Paul’s ministry shows how the truth of the assembly is to be worked out in a practical way down here.

J.McK. That would mean in various localities, would it?

G.R.C. That is how it must work out. It is to be taken up by every locality. The whole of Paul’s ministry, relative to the assembly, needs to be in our minds.

P.L. So that the habitation of God at the end of chapter 2 is given fulness to body-wise, in chapter 3.

G.R.C. I thought so, under the headship of Christ. If we think of the unsearchable riches of the Christ, Solomon would be the type.

• With His unsearchable riches, the Christ endows the assembly, so that the assembly should be fully equipped in the service of God, and also in administration.

• In Solomon’s history administration comes first, ad-ministration manward, both judicially in 1 Kings 3, and in the administration of the whole realm in 1 Kings 4.
  • But it is all in view of the service of God.

A.J.G. Would you say why it is the feature of the all-various wisdom of God which principalities and authorities are to see; not the love of God nor the power of God, but the all-various wisdom of God?

G.R.C. When Paul first introduces the thought of the mystery at the end of Romans, his doxology is to the only wise God.

• I wondered whether the conception of the assembly, Christ and the assembly, is really the acme of divine wisdom. What would you say?

A.J.G. I think it is.

J.S.E. Would it be right to think of the habitation of God in Spirit as a kind of objective in the Spirit’s mind when He brings in those who were far off and those who were nigh, and brings in the reconciliation into one body;

• but does chapter 3 present the assembly to us rather as a medium for the reflection of the all-various wisdom of God?

G.R.C. Quite so. God’s wisdom is learned mediately through the assembly, and I think it is learned both in assembly administration in the wisdom of the true Solomon, and

• also, in the fullest sense, in the service of God.

• The Queen of Sheba was an earthly principality, and she came to see the wisdom of Solomon. She saw the administration of his house,
  • but it was the ascent which finally and most fully affected her, the ascent by which he went up to the house of Jehovah.

• And I think the ascent is in mind here, only it is presenting it from our standpoint, that we have access; but then we have access because Christ has gone in.

• I would say the wisdom of David and Solomon was seen in its highest character in the ordering of the service of God in the house of God.

–.H. Is not wisdom always derived from the Head? Do we not draw upon it from thence?

G.R.C. So that the unsearchable riches of the Christ would include riches of wisdom, and also includes all that is requisite, relative to the service of God; so that

• we not only have boldness through the blood, and in the power of the Holy Spirit,

• but we have a sense that we are equipped, having such a Head for the service; we have substance for it.

P.L. Would you give a testimonial setting also to this? The angels saw the beauty of creation, man in direction, and woman in subjection; and then

• they saw the Lord Jesus and witnessed the cross, and the death of the One who is their Creator.

• And now in God’s house, in 1 Timothy, man lifting up holy hands, and woman in modest decorum; is that not also to be considered in this setting?

G.R.C. It is very interesting to think of what angels have seen from the outset, and this is one great climax of God’s ways,

• that they should see the assembly functioning at the present time.

• It is interesting that, when it is a question of our responsible paths here, and the assembly here in the sphere of responsibility as in 1 Corinthians, these great beings are called angels;

• but when the assembly is seen in its true dignity, as the heavenly sanctuary, they are given their titles of dignity, they are called principalities and authorities in the heavenlies.

A.P.C.L. Would you regard the principalities and authorities of chapter 6 as included in this, the evil ones? They are described as principalities and authorities in the heavenlies?

G.R.C. I had not thought that they were in mind in this chapter.

A.P.C.L. No. But I wondered if there is any suggestion of the divine order and wisdom being set out in the assembly, even in that regard.

G.R.C. Quite so. Those principalities, of course, would attack it.

A.P.C.L. That is what I mean. But then it is set out, is it not, as carried forward from this? The struggle is taken up in relation to this as the background.

G.R.C. That is interesting because it would show the level on which the conflict really is.

• Those principalities of chapter 6 are hostile, and, whatever form the attack takes, surely the great objective from their standpoint is to defeat God’s purpose in respect of the present time, as set out in this chapter.

J.S.E. Would it be right to think of those in chapter 3 as sympathetic with all that God is working out, whereas those in chapter 6 are opposed to it?

• J.T. spoke of the invasion of the expanse, but the expanse is not fully captured.

• There is that part of it in which these sympathetic beings are, and eventually the others will be dealt with in judgment; and our struggle at the present is against them.

G.R.C. And, in that sense, we belong to the expanse; we are viewed in chapter 2 as seated in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus. These remarks help as to the real issue of the conflict.

W.C. And would not the way the conflict is met enter into the all-various wisdom of God being seen. Power in the assembly is greater than these other principalities and powers?

G.R.C. Indeed it is. And one cannot conceive a greater lever than this to help us to come out of all unholy associations. The service of God in holy splendour is in view.

C.A.M. Would you connect with this service the expressions of David in 1 Chronicles 29: 10-12, referring to God “as Head above all”, and to “riches and glory” and so on.

• He does refer to Solomon in verse 19, but I believe J.T. thought that David’s expressions were the highest that we have in the Old Testament.

G.R.C. It seems to be the highest ascription of praise in the Old Testament, and it was given to David to express it, because David was the greatest man morally of that era.

• He was a greater man morally than Solomon, although Solomon’s position was greater. So we have to merge David and Solomon, do we not, if we are thinking of the service of God?

F.J.F. Do the principalities and powers learn anything through the way in which discipline, in the removal of evil out of God’s assembly or house, is carried out?

G.R.C. Solomon begins his reign with that, and his wisdom is noted. Then he organises the kingdom in a marvellous way, causing every part of the inheritance to yield for the blessing and joy of the people,

• but all in view of the service of God.

• Then the final thing is that he directs the service of God, and I think that is the great point in Ephesians 3.

J.McK. The heavenlies thus become energised by the affections and wisdom of God that is known through the assembly.

G.R.C. The assembly is soon to give a lead to the universe as a whole. She is soon to be with Christ, the One who is above every principality and authority and power and dominion and every name named;

• and, as under His headship, she is to give a lead in praise to the whole universe.

C.H. Even the principalities and authorities, according to Colossians 2: 10, are under His headship. Does that not show how the thing is possible to work out?

G.R.C. And did not F.E.R. stress as to that, that since they are all under His headship, none should come between us and Him.

• He is the Head of the body, the assembly; the body has a nearer place than any others who stand related to Him as Head.

• The formation of Eve was an extraordinary thing, viewed as a type of the church. She was different from all the rest of creation.

• Therefore the assembly has a place entirely peculiar to herself. She is His body, taken out of the Man.

J.S.E. With regard to your remarks about the first two or three chapters of 1 Kings, where Solomon’s wisdom shone,

• it seems as though the Spirit carries that along in that book, so that the record of the Queen of Sheba’s remarks stands related to his wisdom excelling everything else. She said,
  • “In wisdom and prosperity thou exceedest the report that I heard”, 1 Kings 10: 7.

G.R.C. Now as regards the prayer, we often read it by itself, but is not Paul praying that the saints might be so furnished

• that they might be able to function in the vessel accord-ing to verses 10 to 12, marked assemblywise by bold-ness and access in confidence by the faith of Christ?

• “The faith of Him” is a beautiful expression; it would include that active faith which recognises Him as giving direction in the whole service.

A.P.C.L. Is that why it is the faith of Him, and not in Him, implying that He is before us in the greatness of His Person, and in the greatness of the position He occupies?

R.M.Y. “That the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts”.

J.T.Jr. I was going to refer to the same verse, because it would seem that it is not a question of the mind, it is a question of the heart.

G.R.C. So that the Christ dwelling through faith in our hearts, seems to be a primary matter if we are to be effective in the service of God.

J.T.Jr. I would think so, it is in our hearts. We may have much in our minds, but a great matter is what is in the heart, that is, Christ is there.

A.B.P. Would that mean that, in relation to David’s greatness in the service of God, the foundation underlying it was really Psalm 51?

• I thought Psalm 51 linked on with our first reading, the necessity for the inward parts being cleansed. Everything must work out from within, must it not?

G.R.C. You are thinking of David now as typical of the saints, the way we come into these things.

A.B.P. Yes, and the way he has been referred to in 1 Chronicles.

G.R.C. He is a great example for us – the moral greatness of the man – a man who made mistakes as we all do and terrible ones, but the moral greatness of the man shines out; and that is what is needed in the service of God.

C.H. Can you tell us why the apostle bows his knees to the Father in this particular connection? It is not just the Lord or the Spirit; it is the Father.

G.R.C. It is wonderful that we have the Father as our resource in this greatest aspect of things.

W.S.S. The Father’s Spirit strengthening us inwardly would bring us into communion with His thoughts as to the Christ and as to the assembly.

G.R.C. The Father loves the Son. It delights His heart that the Son is the Christ.

• That is the idea in what the Queen of Sheba said of Solomon “to be king to Jehovah thy God”, 2 Chron-icles 9: 8, the king is the Anointed, the Christ.

• How the Father delights that the Son should have the place of supreme direction in everything, because it means that everything that is in the divine mind will be secured. The Christ is the One in control and direction.

• But then if we are to be in the matter, He must dwell in our hearts by faith as the Christ.

W.S.S. So there is the wonderful possibility of being with Him now in the faith scene?

G.R.C. Quite so. The Father has named every family and set them in their place, to be an adequate setting for the Son as Centre. They are great concentric circles.

• But the assembly is united to the One at the Centre. She has, incomparably, the nearest place.

Ques. Is the Christ at the centre like the ark being brought into its place?

G.R.C. I think so. He is to have His place in our affections now – dwelling in our hearts by faith. I think more than one type has to be brought into this passage.

• The ark represents as we might say, the fixed place Christ has as the Centre, the whole system depending upon Him in that fixed position.

• But Solomon refers to Christ as Head in an active sense, in active direction.

J.S.E. Is Paul illustrating here the peculiar possibilities as to access to the Father through Christ in the power of the one Spirit when he says, “I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”, exhibiting the blessedness and fulness which may issue from the enjoyment of that access?

G.R.C. I would say he is taking advantage of that access, to express his deep exercise to the Father relative to these most important things.

A.P.C.L. Does the fact that the word hearts is in the plural bear on us every one in relation to this collective position?

G.R.C. It does. We have got to look to our hearts, as to whether faith is active.

J.McK. Would that make room for the thought of association with Christ? You spoke of union earlier on, where does association come in?

G.R.C. You mean by association our place with Him as sons? Both union and association are involved.

• The service is cumulative. The assembly does not cease to be the vessel, where each one is in his place, under the direction of the Head.

• But then each one is a son, and the assembly is a vessel of service. It is not simply sons at home, like Luke 15, but it is the sons in service, under direction.

• So that all the assembly of Israel gathered themselves to Solomon. They were all available under his direction.

R.G.B. Hence is there some importance in the reference to the Father’s Spirit strengthening us in the inner man? I wondered if there was something peculiar in the thought of the Father’s Spirit, as the One who, coming from the Father, had first-hand knowledge of the full range of His thoughts?

G.R.C. Quite so. And the word is “that he may give you according to the riches of his glory”. One would like to know more about the riches of the Father’s glory. It is according to that that He strengthens us by His Spirit.

A.J.G. Do we get some little sense of it as we contemplate that there are many families. The assembly is the unique one as united to Christ, but the Father’s thoughts extend to many families both in heaven and on earth.

G.R.C. I think so. What riches of glory belong to the Father that He should have conceived a scene like this.

W.R.M. Could we link the last psalm with this chapter, “Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in the firmament of his power”?

G.R.C. I think all that would enter into verse 21, “to him be glory in the assembly”. Psalm 150 is the climax of praise in the Old Testament, and we are to arrive at the climax of praise as in the light of Christianity.

P.L. Would the Father impart through Christ a peculiar trait of His glory distinctive to every family, and will every family, in its respective abode in the Father’s house, shine out in some peculiar grace and glory of the Father?

G.R.C. And do you think we need strengthening by the Father’s Spirit to take in such a conception?

• The Father has conceived, in His love for the Son; that He should be thus surrounded; but do we need strengthening by the Father’s Spirit to take it in?

• But first of all to appreciate and love the One who is the Centre – that the Christ might dwell in our hearts by faith.

J.T.Jr. The special place the assembly has is in view here, would you say? While there are many families, yet what is immediately in mind is the assembly.

G.R.C. I think so. And will not the assembly give a lead to the praise of all the other families? They have not the access that we enjoy.

J.T.Jr. I would think that the many families that are alluded to would draw out our affections, but the strengthening of us with power by the Spirit in the inner man, is

• that the Christ may dwell, through faith in our hearts, not so much the mind, but the hearts. That is, I judge, what is so needed by us, that Christ is really in our hearts.

G.R.C. And then following that, being rooted and founded in love. Is it not a fact that only love can take in what love conceives? So that in chapter 1 it speaks of being enlightened in the eyes of your heart: Does that bear on it?

J.T.Jr. Yes I thought so, because we may have a great deal mentally; I suppose we all would own that, but how much Christ is in the heart is what one would be exercised about.

G.R.C. While Mary of Magdala in John 20 had not the intelligence of some at the outset, the point was she had a heart, and she had eyes in it, and she saw things very quickly, and became the most intelligent of any. Is that so?

J.T.Jr. Very good. I would say that chapter in John is a great help in the present time; the early movements and how she stayed there, and got it.

E.E.P. Would the Christ dwelling in our hearts through faith help us to see the great end in mind of God dwelling with men?

G.R.C. I think it would enable us to see the whole system. I do not think we can get a view of the system of glory until Christ has His place.

• “That the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts, being rooted and founded in love, in order that ye may be fully able to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height”.

• We should note the word “fully” there. This is something exceedingly vast, the great range of things of which Christ is the Centre.

• But we cannot take account of the scope of it until, in our affections, we are in the centre through the Christ dwelling in our hearts by faith.

W.S.S. Does the expression “the Christ” embrace the whole system?

G.R.C. I would think it is Christ personally here.

A.J.G. Christ in relation to the whole system.

G.R.C. Christ in relation to the whole system, certainly. As the Christ He is anointed relative to it, and the whole system is anointed.

A.P.C.L. Would it in any way connect with the last verse of John 17, “I have made known to them thy name, and will make it known; that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them”?

G.R.C. I think it has a strong connection. The Father strengthens us by His Spirit that the love wherewith He loves the Son might, by His Spirit, be in us, and then, as a result, Christ in us – Christ having His true place in our affections.

G.H. And whilst Christ dwells through faith in our hearts, does the apprehension involve spiritual intelligence and perception?

G.R.C. It certainly does. In chapter 1 it speaks of the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of God.

• You could not conceive of anything greater than the full knowledge of God; and then it adds, being enlightened in the eyes of your heart.

• We need the full knowledge of God if we are to arrive at the true climax of praise.

• But then the prayer of chapter 3 is to bring us also into the intelligence of the whole vast system of which God in Christ is the Centre.

G.H. And the word apprehension is used and not comprehension; so that there are limits, and yet what is there is apprehended.

G.R.C. And fully apprehended, but it could not be comprehended. We cannot compass that in which God is to dwell, but we can apprehend it.

A.J.G. Why is it that just before we reach this climax of being filled even to all the fulness of God he says “and to know the love of the Christ, which surpasses knowledge”?

• J.T. said years ago that we are supported by the love of Christ in the presence of what is infinite.

• But do we not need to know the love of the Christ, both for the assembly and for His Father, as that in the power of which He has given effect to the thoughts of God?

G.R.C. I am sure we do. Whilst it is the love of a Man, it is not the love of a mere man, for it surpasses knowledge.

• It flows in all directions, Godward, to the assembly, to every family; it fills and supports the whole system. It is an active love. It says in Romans “the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord”.

• In this blessed Person we know the love of perfect manhood, but the love of God is shining out in Him, too, filling the universe.

J.R.H. Will you please say something about being “rooted and founded in love”?

G.R.C. It shows how important love is, that whether the saints are viewed as plants, or whether they are viewed from the standpoint of building, love is the essential thing.

• Both rooting and founding are in love. Love gives us capacity for divine intelligence, because only love can take in what love has conceived.

J.R.H. It does not say whose love it is.

G.R.C. It is the divine nature.

W.C. Is it something like the reference in Isaiah, trees of Jehovah’s planting, that He may be glorified?

G.R.C. Quite so. How great the fruit is, “that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God”. What can we say about that expression?

S.B. Does the “ye” refer to the assembly?

G.R.C. That ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God. It does refer to the assembly in the sense that all the personnel of the assembly are in mind here. There is not an empty vessel.

• And then you have this great result, “to him be glory in the assembly”.

A.P.C.L. Is it your suggestion that we should experience this by the Spirit in a peculiar way in the service?

G.R.C. Is it not the thing we long to know more and more about?

A.P.C.L. In one sense it is preparatory to it, but in another sense it is the service, is it not?

G.R.C. Do you mean that filled to all the fulness of God is preparatory to the final response to God?

A.P.C.L. And also that the apostle is praying that these things might happen. They are, in one sense, preparatory to the entrance into the full idea of being filled, and then there is the ascription of glory.

G.R.C. In this prayer he has in mind that God’s present purpose set out in verses 10 to 12 should be fully reached, and these are the furnishings we need to reach it, finishing with being filled to all the fulness of God.

A.B.P. Breadth and length and depth and height seem to suggest that we are consciously in the centre.

G.R.C. I would think so.

T.V. Does it stand in relation to individuals, or to the assembly?

G.R.C. I think the assembly is in mind throughout. It uses the plural, hearts, in verse 17 to show that we have got to be individually exercised, but I would say that the assembly is in mind throughout.

J.McK. Do you think it has in mind the assembly as serviceable in this vast system?

G.R.C. I think so. The assembly is soon to give the lead in praise to the universe.

J.S.E. At the present time the assembly is the system, is it not? “To him be glory in the assembly”.

G.R.C. And yet, as in the assembly at the present time, if we were in the gain of this prayer, we would be fully able to apprehend with all the saints the breadth and length and depth and height of the whole system.

• Glory to God is in the assembly at the present time, but it is in the assembly as anticipating in spiritual power her place relative to the whole system, and having an outlook on the whole system.

W.C. Is the word “to him be glory in the assembly” referring to the outpouring of the fulness? Is the fulness to express itself in glory?

G.R.C. I think that is the result of being “filled even to all the fulness of God”.

A.W. Why does he say “to him be glory”, not “to God be glory”?

G.R.C. I would say the pronouns of verses 20-21 refer back to God in verse 19.

A.P.C.L. Why is He brought on to our view as one able to do, in this setting, before the ascription of glory to Him?

G.R.C. Because what is in mind is so great that we could never ask adequately. Paul’s prayer is a great example; but the question is whether any creature could ever ask adequately.

• But God takes account of our prayers, and, if we bow our knees to the Father in real exercise, we repeatedly experience that God does far exceedingly above all which we ask or think.

• No doubt the activities of each Person are involved, but especially the Spirit when it says, according to the power that works in us.

• It is a thing which promotes worship in itself, the continual experience that God does more than we could ever ask or think.

C.H. That is He does not finish with the sense of his spiritual need, or ours, but the greatness of the One who was able to meet it.

Ques. Does the expression “glory” here go beyond praise and worship which is vocal?

G.R.C. It includes praise and worship. “Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me”, Psalm 50: 23.

• Vocal praise is essential in the service of God; a silent assembly would not meet the position at all.

• Underlying the vocal praise there should be prostration of soul, inward homage and adoration, but there must be vocal praise. It is a necessity if there is to be glory to God.

J.S.E. “To God’s glory and praise” is a scripture in Philippians, showing that you cannot very well separate them; and yet at this point the emphasis is on glory. Does it not show that God has the very best in the assembly?

G.R.C. I am sure. “To him be glory”; we are ascribing glory to Him, and how worthy He is of it, the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit – God. How worthy of all glory God is!

• And as we ascribe glory, we have in our minds that, while we belong to the assembly, which is the eternal tabernacle of God, and God is pleased to dwell with us and we are conscious of His dwelling and filled to all His fulness,
  • yet, in His own Being, He is dwelling in light unapproachable.

H.C. Is there not added lustre to the glory on account of the vessel from which it proceeds?

G.R.C. Quite so. It is in the light of all this, as well as what he said in chapter 2, that Paul says

• “I, the prisoner in the Lord, exhort you therefore to walk worthy of the calling wherewith ye have been called”.

• What a lever this chapter affords, the service of God in holy splendour in the heavenly sanctuary.

• We are to walk worthy of the calling. We are not to have garments for the service differing from those we wear during the week. We are to walk here as those who belong to the heavenly sanctuary, with all lowliness and meekness.

• The more we know of the height of our calling, the more lowly we shall be, and the more meek, and the more longsuffering.

• And as rooted and founded in love, we shall know how to bear with one another in love, and use diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace.

Now the main thoughts in mind in chapter 4 are the two unities mentioned.

• The first one we are to use diligence to keep, because if anything comes in to disturb the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace, there will no longer be unison in praise.

• But then the other unity is what we are arriving at through the means of the work of the ministry.
  • We are arriving “at the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ”.

• The fact that we are moving on to the second unity, and cannot say yet that we have arrived at it, makes the earlier one essential, the earlier diligence essential.

• We are all moving on, we are learning; some of us are slow, some may err in carrying one feature too far. But we are moving on to the unity of the faith, and the gifts from an ascended Christ are helping us.

• Meantime we are to use “diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace”.

J.T.Jr. There is such a thing as that, “the unity of the Spirit”.

G.R.C. It is an existing thing.

J.T.Jr. A wonderful thing!

E.C.M. Is the unity of the Godhead brought in here as the basis of this wonderful unity, “one Spirit, one Lord, one God and Father of all who is over all, and through all, and in us all”?

G.R.C. And we have to take account of the fact do we not, that it begins with one body. If we had been writing it we might have put one Spirit first. It shows the importance of the truth of the body, and body feelings.

C.H. As to our way into it, would lowliness refer to our attitude of mind, and meekness to our spirits?

• I was thinking of matters that have arisen whilst we have been together, as to how we are to deal with matters that occur, and of the scripture in 2 Timothy 2: 25, in meekness setting right those who oppose. It is a question of what a man is in his spirit, is it not?

G.R.C. That is very helpful. That word in Timothy is what becomes a bondman of the Lord. We are to be representative of our Master, and so it says

• “a bondman of the Lord ought not to contend, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing, in meekness setting right those who oppose, if God perhaps may sometime give them repentance to acknowledgment of the truth”.

C.H. I was thinking of your reference to our need of longsuffering in bearing with one another so that we might all come into this remarkable system, and the working out of it through the gifts.

• So that we are enlightened and moving forward in the greatest possible unity because the gifts are moving in that direction also.

G.R.C. As the gifts operate, and light comes in from the Man above the heavens, it takes time for adjustment.

• Light comes in, and we have to remember, if it is true ministry, it comes from the Man who has ascended above all the heavens, so that it will have its way in the end whatever happens.

• If we do not submit to it we shall be lost to the testimony. None can resist Him.

• But it comes from Him with a view to our arriving at the unity of the faith, and every fresh accession of recovered light involves a good deal of adjustment before we are all settled, as it were, in the unity of the faith at the new point. Do you see what I mean?

C.H. What would help in that is our using diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit.

G.R.C. That is what I thought. While the adjustments are taking place we are to use diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit.

C.H. What Mr. T. said I think is important, that the unity of the Spirit is here in the presence of that Person, but we come into it by this lowly attitude of mind and spirit.

J.O.S. Is Paul’s letter to Philemon a practical illustration of it?

G.R.C. I suppose his letter was a letter of commendation of Onesimus upon his going back to his original locality. Of course he was not converted when he was there previously.

• So far as I can see it was addressed to the particular meeting in Colosse that he belonged to. There was divine wisdom in that.

• If Paul had addressed it simply to the saints meeting in Colosse, and it had been read out in a city meeting in the first instance, it would not have been the wisest thing, as I see it, because there was such a delicate personal matter between Onesimus and Philemon.

• So Paul addresses the letter to Philemon and to the assembly in his house. It indicates Paul’s wisdom and his diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit.

I think Acts 15 is one of the most outstanding examples of diligence in keeping the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace.

• Paul had received his ministry from the Man above the heavens, and nothing at Jerusalem could alter it. To him those who were conspicuous, he says, communicated nothing. Galatians 2: 6.

• But what grace it was on his part, in order to keep the unity of the Spirit, to journey to Jerusalem with others from Antioch, to sit down with the brethren, not taking a prominent place but speaking about what God was doing among the nations, and to make way for Peter and James to make the pronouncements in the assembly.

• This was the very best thing that could have happened, for who could have carried the confidence of the brethren at Jerusalem like Peter and James? And so the unity of the Spirit was preserved in the uniting bond of peace.

J.M. Does the thought of peace, “keeping the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace”, take our minds back to chapter 2: 15, “that he might form the two in himself into one new man, making peace”?

C.H. And whilst the inmost circle is held in the power of the Spirit, do you think the second concentric circle has a very direct bearing on the present situation, and on the subject matter of these meetings?

G.R.C. Very much so, “one Lord, one faith, one baptism”. You are thinking that matters exercising us really have relation to that?

C.H. Yes, and one Lord and one faith.

J.R.H. Would the second verse bring into view all that is available for our help in maintaining unity in current exercises?

G.R.C. It is the manner and spirit in which we can take things up with one another, in that true oversight and affectionate pastoral care which should be in constant exercise in every locality. If it is so, many things will never need to come to the assembly.

Ques. Would the reference in Acts 20 to the assembly of God, which He has purchased with the blood of His own, be a great incentive to the elders in their shepherding of the flock?

G.R.C. Yes. And we have to take account of the fact that it says there that the Holy Spirit had set them as overseers in the assembly.

• Now we have no official elders today either chosen for us, or chosen by ourselves. But the Holy Spirit has not given up His service.

• He has those morally qualified, and He would lay the responsibility upon them. He has set them in the flock to exercise oversight and pastoral care, which has a great deal to do with the unifying of the saints.

• The unity of the Spirit is to be kept, and the Spirit has set persons in the flock with that in view.

• Another thing that we have to keep in mind is that the body here, “there is one body and one Spirit”, refers to what is universal. There should not be different standards in different local assemblies.

P.L. You mean that what is binding in assembly judgment in any locality should be respected by brethren universally.

G.R.C. Any assembly judgment dealing with a specific case must be respected by brethren universally.

• The local assembly has to do with specific cases, and the facts of specific cases.

P.L. I wondered whether you would repeat, Mr. T., some remarks which you made after the meeting this morning,

• in regard to the assembly being called in in regard to brethren who are in associations foreign to the light the Lord has given on this matter, and enquiry made as to the particular situation;

• so that if they are, for the moment, in an inextricable position in divine government, there would be no question of assembly action,

• but assembly authority and conscience would be brought to bear upon them to help them, when their determination is to get out, but they are for the moment unable so to do.

J.T.Jr. I think that was about what I said. We have found help in bringing the assembly into matters, not for any punitive action, but for help.

• The assembly is under the Lord and is gathering much light. He is there, and we can expect things to help them as the assembly is brought to bear upon any matter that might be difficult.

G.R.C. Would that lead to assembly prayer of Matthew 18 on their behalf, where the Lord says, “if two of you shall agree”? Those concerned would get the benefit of such a prayer as that?

J.T.Jr. Quite so. Perhaps therefore we should take a view in our assemblies as to what is current, not with a view to anything punitive, but rather to help with any difficult matters.

• So that we do not settle matters here, principles only can come before us. It is the local assemblies that take up matters, and, under the great Priest, priestly service will be seen.

G.R.C. It seems to me a great advantage that assembly prayers would result; and the Lord says, “it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens”. Would not that be an immense gain to persons facing difficulties?

J.T.Jr. We have found it so.

A.P.C.L. From that would emerge that what was said in Acts 15, ‘‘It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us” would be a matter of our bond together in this matter of unity. It would then, be a question of what was in the mind of the Spirit?

F.J.F. Does Mr. T. mean, please, that at the meeting for prayer you would bring the matter before the Lord?

J.T.Jr. I quite agree that that is right, that is the prayer meeting.

• But further than that, the saints are convened in city character for light and help, and for matters to be discussed, and so the issues can come before the brethren, and named what they are, so that brethren can get light and help through the assembly as convened.

A.P.B. You mean, not the City Reading, but an assembly meeting?

J.T.Jr. Well it might go to that; but there is the Care Meeting, the assembly enters into the care meeting; the assembly enters into every meeting. But the care meeting can go a long way in regard to getting help as to matters, caring for one another.

C.H. I think you added at that time, for I was there, that the priests come into action, and they would discern whether the state was characteristically stubborn or yielding.

J.T.Jr. Well I think so. It is a question really whether you are dealing with will. Whether the issue is the point, or whether the man’s will is active.