| READING 3 |
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| Unity as Presented in Paul's Epistles ( 3 ) 2 Corinthians 5: 13-21; 6: 1-3, 11-18; 7: 1 |
P.L. I am sure it would be helpful if what came up yesterday afternoon was clarified. I take it that
G.R.C. That is how I understand it. Christ’s service as Mediator and Minister of the holy places runs right through, as we respond to His Father and our Father, and to His God and our God.
P.L. Surely.
C.H. Would not the mediatorial place Christ has in all things pertaining to God be recognised in the way we finish our praise or thanksgiving in the Name of the Lord Jesus?
G.R.C. I would think so.
C.H. But the one before the soul would be that particular Person who is the Object of our praise or worship.
G.R.C. Exactly. “I ascend to my Father and your Father”. The Father is absorbing our attention and is the Object of our worship.
J.S.E. Does Colossians 3: 16 help? “Let the word of the Christ dwell in you richly, in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another, in psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to God”.
G.R.C. Do you mean that the word of the Christ is regulating?
J.S.E. Yes, and in a sense it is mediatorial; that is, it is a means to an end. But the end and object is God Himself.
G.R.C. Exactly.
W.R.M. Would it be right to say that when we worship the Father in heaven we shall be looking at the Son?
G.R.C. I do not think He will ever be out of our view. J.N.D. says:
Ques. Would not verse 4 of hymn 178 fit in here?
G.R.C. Quite so. The Father is thus the Object of worship, His glory radiant in the Son.
W.C. Is it not important that whether we are thinking, or referring, to either the Son or the Spirit, the spirit of worship should be with us?
G.R.C. You are thinking of worship in the sense of homage of heart? I think what you say is right.
A.J.G. The Lord helps us, does He not, by saying “My Father is greater than I”. So that He directs to the Father as the One who is to have the supreme place in our thoughts and affections?
F.J.F. And what place has the Spirit at that juncture?
G.R.C. The second preposition (i.e., “en”) in Ephesians 2: 18 is the same as in 1 Corinthians 12: 13.
F.G.F. Does that mean that the Holy Spirit, in His service, is on our side helping us to be before the Father, even as the Lord’s service is helpful?
G.R.C. It certainly does. Thus, just as we must be filled with gratitude that in the power of one Spirit we have been baptised into one body, without which we could not even partake of the Lord’s supper,
A.P.C.L. Is that why worshipful reference to the Spirit at that point would be the outflow of our souls? I was thinking of what you said yesterday, that
G.R.C. As we have noticed, in Colossians the Spirit recedes from view, making way for Christ in His supremacy as Head, there being a marvellous presentation of Him in that epistle;
A.B.P. Does Ezekiel in type have the consciousness of the power of the Spirit; and the place that the Lord Jesus has in His augmentary service in mind, as lifted, carried by the Spirit?
G.R.C. Does not that passage show that right up to the close of the service when we are worshipping God as such, the mediatorial service of Christ and of the Spirit is still essential, and available;
A.B.P. That was the impression I had, that while the Object is God Himself, we never lose sight of the power of the Spirit as necessary, and the association with Christ in the place of response to God.
G.R.C. At the same time, while we are dependent upon the service of the Spirit lifting us up, and a Man standing by us – and it is wonderful, it leads our hearts out in homage at the very thought of the grace of it –
J.McK. Does the matter of access involve what continues, the continuing efficacy of the service of the Son and of the Spirit, so long as we are before the Father?
G.R.C. Yes, and, of course, you have access in Ephesians 3: 12 too, which would include access to God in glory and majesty.
J.McK. Yes, I was thinking of that also; whether we have not been satisfied with an approach by certain means.
G.R.C. And I suppose always will be, all through eternity.
J.McK. That is how I feel about it.
G.R.C. It is most touching to think that Their service continues, it is essential for us, all through eternity. How much, then, we need it now, in these mixed conditions!
C.H. In thinking of the mediatorial service of Christ we do not in any sense reduce Christ to the position He has taken; but we do understand that our link with the infinite is in One who Himself is infinite, and yet is in manhood.
J.H. Does John 6: 62 help, “If then ye see the Son of man ascending up where he was before?”, then He directly calls attention to the Spirit, “It is the Spirit which quickens”.
A.B.P. As creatures, we will ever be dependent upon eating of the tree of life, and drinking the water of life, and would that suggest the support we have in the augmentary service of Christ and the Spirit?
G.R.C. The service is living, and life has to be sustained in that way.
H.V. How is the thought of the Lord as Minister of the sanctuary to be connected with what is now being said?
G.R.C. The Lord is Minister; the word is “leitourgos” from which “liturgy” comes.
A.J.G. Is the idea connected with Minister of the holy places that the service should be wholly according to God, suitable to God, whereas His headship is more immediately on our side, in order that we might be led suitably.
C.H. In Hebrews 8 it is connected with the greatness of the Person who takes the office, is it not? He has set Himself down, on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens.
G.R.C. Are there not offices belonging to manhood which could only be filled by a Person of the Godhead?
J.S.E. Is that why we have such a layout in chapter 1 of Hebrews as to the glory and equality of the Person, so that we never lose sight of that, although we are called upon to view Him in His place as Man in the offices He fills.
G.R.C. Quite so; and, of course, in whatever way we view Him, we are always looking upon a Man, speaking with all reverence, even when we are contemplating what He is in Himself.
R.M.Y. The thought of Minister of the holy places would not be confined merely to the service while it is in process, would it?
G.R.C. I can see that in living faith we need to be under His direction as the Minister of the holy places as the service actually proceeds, because it is the worship of the living God, as it says in Hebrews.
C.H. If that matter has been clarified, could we now go to your scriptures.
J.T.Jr. May I just say, then, that there is a Man great enough for everything.
G.R.C. That is a wonderful thing to get into our souls.
W.C. You would say because of who He is?
J.T.Jr. Exactly. As the gospels bring out, a real Man here, but not a mere Man.
F.J.F. And is it not so that the Minister of the sanctuary also must be a divine Person to fulfil the office of the priest according to the order of Melchisedec?
G.R.C. Exactly. I think the great offices that God purposed for man are so great that only a divine Person could fill them out. But then He is greater than any office, He adorns every office.
A.P.C.L. So that flowing out of what has been said just now, we must recognise, must we not, that we are dependent upon Him as to the impulse we may have to worship the Spirit, as under the direction of such a One?
G.R.C. Is not that where the importance comes in, of not overlooking the service of the Lord Jesus as the Minister of the holy places during the time of the service?
R.W.S. Does the service of the Minister of the holy places apply to the final phases or all phases of the service, please?
G.R.C. I thought it applied particularly once the Lord assumes His place as Head.
Ques. Is there some reference to Aaron, and all the services being under his hand?
G.R.C. It refers to Aaron, but we must not leave out, as far as I see, the Solomonic service also.
J.S.E. Is not the irregularity caused by undue occupation with the Mosaic types and trying to fit them into Christendom;
G.R.C. I think the presentation of Christ in Colossians 1 is of the utmost importance. But we have to beware of the leaven of the Sadducees.
A.J.G. With regard to the reference to the tree of life on the one hand, and the river on the other, the tree of life brings forth fresh fruit every month, and the river is always flowing, it is never stagnant, is it?
G.R.C. Very good. Now if we could pass on to Corinthians, what is in mind is unity of judgment and outlook, and unity and expansion of heart in purification.
We were speaking yesterday about dealing with what is within first, namely the old leaven.
But before we come to that you have Paul’s judgment,
Now that gives us Paul’s outlook which was in line with God’s outlook, knowing no one according to flesh, but looking out on new creation; and for him, as for God, the old things had passed away.
A.J.G. It would seem that the basis of this judgment is an increasing appreciation of the love of Christ in dying for all.
G.R.C. Quite so, the love of Christ constrains us. One died for all, then all have died. That was the judgment he came to. Therefore he knew no one after the flesh.
C.W.C. Would the Minister of the sanctuary help us to be in the position suggested in verse 13, in a spirit of ecstasy, but when it is a question of what we say audibly, we need to be sober, because the brethren are listening to us?
G.R.C. The Lord would support us as the great Priest over the house of God and encourage us to be continually in the presence of God, and, as the note says,
R.W.S. It is to God, he says. Is that the full thought?
G.R.C. It is something you could not express intelligibly to men.
R.W.S. Would he have in mind the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit in that?
G.R.C. In Colossians 1: 12 he says, “giving thanks to the Father”, and I think in so doing we may well be beside ourselves in worship to the Father. But then he says here, “for whether we are beside ourselves, it is to God”.
F.J.F. If we do not know anyone after the flesh, is it according to the work of God that we know each other?
G.R.C. It is; only God’s workmanship will pass the judgment-seat, and we are to be engaged with God’s workmanship now.
A.J.G. So that our links with one another are to flow out of our appreciation of the work of God in each other.
J.T.Jr. The apostle goes on quickly to the thought of new creation, but he brings in this thought, no longer to live to himself. That is as far as that goes in this epistle, and that is an important point to reach.
G.R.C. Would you say more as to the importance of it?
J.T.Jr. I thought that it had an important bearing in regard to the present exercises as to the fellowship; you do not live to yourself.
A.J.G. Would you say that where it says “but to him who died for them and has been raised”, that is to connect our thoughts and interests with Christ, and really the assembly as bound up with Him?
G.R.C. I think so, and to move us on to new creation. One wonders how far we have got the new creation outlook.
P.L. They go right on to eternity, the new heavens and new earth.
G.R.C. As I understand it, God is dwelling among us relative to this, to what we are as His workmanship.
J.S.E. Would the verse in the end of Galatians in any sense implement what you are saying, ‘‘as many as walk according to this rule”, etc.?
G.R.C. It would. And so we have here the work of new creation, and the work of reconciliation put together, and they must be together.
A.J.G. But before God all were dead, and the death of Christ proved that, so that the only thing that is living really, according to God’s reckoning, is His own work in the saints, is it?
G.R.C. Quite so. And the fact that mixed conditions exist is covered by the work of reconciliation in the divine outlook, and in the outlook of the ministers, and it should be in the outlook of the brethren generally.
A.B.P. Would there be a connection with John 11 and 12, that the family at Bethany was brought to weigh things now on the basis of their firmness, whether they go through into life, or end in corruption? I am thinking of the expression that “all have died”.
G.R.C. So that we have a new order of things in chapter 12.
A.B.P. Has it not been said that it is typical of those who love our Lord Jesus Christ in incorruption?
G.R.C. Very good.
F.J.F. Should we take opportunity more to pray with power, like Peter. He went, while they were preparing, on the housetop, and it says “an ecstasy came upon him”. Would God answer in that way, as we are devoted to Him in prayer?
G.R.C. He got a view of the great vessel as a sheet, and in it were all the creeping things and quadrupeds of the earth, but the word was “What God has cleansed, do not thou make common”, Acts 10: 15.
D.S.H. Would you call that a sanctuary judgment, “what God has cleansed”?
G.R.C. I think what Paul has here is a sanctuary judgment. It is a judgment we arrive at, I would say, as being in the centre of the system with God.
C.H. And in speaking of reconciliation as the basis for what follows, have you in mind that we should have a thorough-going judgment about what is irreconcilable.
G.R.C. He does, and so the idea of ambassadors comes in. As coming forth from the presence of God, nothing should mark such, except that which is in keeping with this judgment and outlook.
A.J.G. Is that what is involved in the word of reconciliation? There is the ministry of it, but then there is also the word of it?
G.R.C. The ministry would be the official thing, would it not, like an ambassador receiving his credentials. But the word of it is what marks the person.
A.J.G. I wondered as to that, whether it was the living expression of the truth in Paul and those with him.
G.R.C. As coming forth from the presence of God he says, “We are ambassadors therefore for Christ, God as it were beseeching by us, we entreat for Christ”.
J.A.P. When it refers to “for if we have known Christ after the flesh”, is that a reference to what is natural? Has not even what is right in the flesh to be ruled by what is spiritual?
G.R.C. Indeed it has. But this passage is to show how completely that order is closed.
J.McK. Do you think the reference to the day of salvation would indicate that all this is to be practically worked out and there is divine provision and support for the saints pursuing this line?
G.R.C. I think if we are marked by the old things, by features of the old man, the ministry will be blamed.
R.W.S. Does the strength of the word ‘constrain’, in verse 14, and the beseeching of chapter 6: 1, the deep feelings of God, all flow out from what he was with God in private?
G.R.C. These deep feelings of Paul are but a reflection of the deep feelings of Christ, and the deep feelings of God.
–.H. Has reconciliation in mind divine complacency?
G.R.C. I think that is what is in mind in chapter 6, divine complacency. God has His habitation here because of what we have in chapter 5.
A.B.P. And would you say that there must be a concrete expression of this in the company for God to take this attitude?
G.R.C. So would you say there were some in Corinth who shared this outlook? The approved were to become manifest.
A.B.P. If God could say “all Israel has sinned” when Achan sinned, He can also hold the company in abstract perfection because of the concrete fact of the truth being expressed in certain persons.
Ques. Has “the day of salvation” in mind that there is power for us to be delivered from the workings of the flesh?
G.R.C. There is. We can approach God about everything needed relative to the testimony, everything needed relative to our being here in accord with His house.
C.H. Would the apostle count on the approved coming to light by this process you have been delineating? He speaks of them, does he not, in chapter 11 of the first letter, “that the approved may become manifest among you”?
G.R.C. I would say so. They would be those whose heart expanded itself, would you say?
C.H. Yes. I thought what Mr. P. said was important that there was the work of God there at Corinth, basically, and in some sense testimonially, so that God had a warrant for going on with them; but the basis is, as you rightly say, from the divine side, reconciliation.
G.R.C. Quite so. And is not our answer to it purification?
C.H. I wondered that. It is not just righteousness but purification.
G.R.C. So that while chapter 5: 21 has the day of atonement in mind specially, we have in Numbers 19 the red heifer, which also bears on the verse, “him who knew not sin he has made sin for us”.
N.W. If we walk with God during the six days in the power of the Holy Spirit, will we not be in a state on the Lord’s day for the Lord Jesus to come in and really be known among us?
G.R.C. I am sure that is right.
C.H. Will you please give us that scripture. It was a question of the whole thing viewed from our side, the whole man coming under the destruction of the fire.
G.R.C. Numbers 19: 2 says,
C.H. Yes, so that in verse 7, the priest shall wash his garments. There is a great deal following in the chapter about the water, the action of water, which relates to purification, I suppose.
G.R.C. It does. This burning provided the ashes for the water of purification or separation.
C.H. It indicates a thorough-going judgment. That is what the scripture seems to suggest, does it not?
G.R.C. Quite so.
J.S.E. Are you suggesting that what we have embodied in chapter 5 is largely connected with Leviticus 16?
G.R.C. I think verse 21 can be linked with both Leviticus 16 and Numbers 19, “Him who knew not sin He has made sin for us”,
J.M. Would you say that on our side the expanded heart and the narrow path go together?
G.R.C. That is just what I thought. The more our hearts expand themselves and come into line, therefore, with the heart of God – His desires, His longings to dwell among us complacently –
J.S.E. Do you mean that as allowing our heart to expand itself, it would become a very simple matter to handle these opposites, at the close of chapter 6?
G.R.C. Just so.
F.J.F. Does that word at the end of the chapter 5, “that we might become God’s righteousness in Him”, involve a glorified body before Him forever?
G.R.C. That is what I understand. But then the practical answer to that is righteousness now.
A.B.P. Sometimes it is asked why there should be such severe requirements of the truth in our day. Is it not significant that both the red heifer, and the brazen serpent, occur at the end of the wilderness pathway?
G.R.C. That is a very interesting thing. God has waited on us with much patience.
A.B.P. And, according to the passage in Deuteronomy, had us in mind particularly, because Moses says, “Not with our fathers did Jehovah make this covenant, but with us who are here alive all of us this day”.
G.W.B. The prophecies of Balaam follow, too.
G.R.C. Which bear out what has been said as to the necessity for what is concrete. It is not till there is what is concrete that Balaam is compelled to prophesy as he does.
R.W.S. Would the allusion to being the living God’s temple, and what the Lord says in verse 17, then the allusion to fatherhood in verse 18 and the thought of the Lord Almighty, give encouragement and leverage to make a break with associations which are corrupting?
G.R.C. That is what I would say, “Come out from the midst of them, and be separated, saith the Lord”.
L.E.S. Is it not an important matter that these proposals on the part of God to be their God, and that they should be His people, occur no less than 14 or 15 times
G.R.C. And how attractive it is, “I will be their God” – what could be more blessed – “and they shall be to me a people”.
A.McG. Leviticus 26: 1-13 unfolds the blessedness of it.
| READING 4 |
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| Unity as Presented in Paul's Epistles ( 4 ) Galatians 2: 18-21; 3: 1-3, 24-29; 4: 1-7; 6: 14-18 |
G.R.C. One desires help in looking at this epistle as to the great truth of sonship, a truth which, if understood, would unify us;
W.S.S. The end of the passage you are referring to in Zechariah says, “These are the two sons of oil, that stand before the Lord of the whole earth”. Would that be in your mind in using the type?
G.R.C. Quite so. Those in the dignity of sonship have in mind the rights of God universally.
E.A.K. Is it instructive that in the blessing of Asher in Deuteronomy it says, “Of Asher he said, Asher shall be blessed with sons”, then it goes on to say, “let him dip his foot in oil; iron and brass shall be thy bolts”.
G.R.C. That is very helpful. The dipping the foot in oil is a prominent feature of the teaching in Galatians.
E.A.K. “Iron and brass shall be thy bolts”.
G.R.C. It suggests fidelity in maintaining all that is due to God against all comers, but in the liberty and grace of sonship.
P.L. Tardy matters, do you think, that may hang about, brought to completion in the energy of the Spirit, in keeping with His present voice.
J.S.E. Such as?
P.L. Well, the matter of associations; and a reluctance, for instance, to furnish a united front universally in regard to the exercise raised last year as to having the morning meeting an hour earlier;
G.R.C. Would you not say that if we were in the liberty and joy of sonship there would be no tardiness?
P.L. Far from it. But, as you say, in the liberty of sonship Paul here is very firm for the truth the Lord has given, and takes a faithful stand in regard even to such a brother and gift as Peter, which we can only thank God for.
G.R.C. Therefore we need to see the seriousness of the legal element.
J.S.E. Would you say that in these circumstances Peter was found wanting in true churchmanship?
G.R.C. I certainly would. He was giving up the whole church position – the practical truth of Jew and Gentile reconciled to God in one body by the cross.
J.S.E. Is that why Paul meets it with an allusion to the Son of God?
G.R.C. I think so. The fact is the leaven of legality is a terrifying principle. Even Peter came under the power of it.
P.L. That shows that Jerusalem was, alas, steadily retro-grading in spite of the light afforded through the gathering in Acts 15. If we do not act on light, do we not drift?
Ques. What do you mean by a churchman?
G.R.C. To begin with, Paul does not introduce the truth of the one body in Romans until, in his teaching, he has brought us into the liberty of sonship in chapter 8.
J.T.Jr. All Christians are sons by faith, that is what the scriptures say, by faith in Christ Jesus.
G.R.C. And so God says at the outset, “Israel is my son, my firstborn … Let my son go”. The son was to be brought out of Egypt and Israel was to dwell alone. Is that right?
J.T.Jr. Quite, and so as come out of Egypt they come into a bond with God.
G.R.C. Quite so. The one in whom sonship is seen so fully, that is Paul, ends this epistle by saying that he bears in his body the brands of the Lord Jesus.
R.W.S. And meets the condition by travailing in birth – in chapter 4: 19 – “my children, of whom I again travail in birth until Christ shall have been formed in you”.
G.R.C. Yes. It was maternal affections. He took character from the Jerusalem above which is our mother.
A.H.G. Do you mean that the saints need to be helped into this matter of sonship in order to meet these adjustments effectively?
G.R.C. That is what I have in mind. If we look at the passage we read in chapter 2, we see how Paul himself became characteristically one of the Israel of God, how he went through the exercise.
J.T.Jr. Separation from evil is not legality. It is the principle on which J.N.D. moved, and it is to be carried forward in our souls.
G.R.C. Separation from evil is essential, and it is to be done by faith and in the power of the Spirit in the liberty of sonship. We should encourage one another, I believe, on those lines.
J.T.Jr. We should encourage each other to be in keeping with the truth of separation.
G.R.C. Quite so.
J.T.Jr. That is brought up in 2 Timothy 2, and we had it this morning in 2 Corinthians 6, and it is not legality.
Ques. Speaking of unity, did not J.N.D. say that separation from evil is God’s principle of unity?
E.P. Does it not say in Timothy that “God has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power, and of love, and of wise discretion”, in view of dealing with these matters.
G.R.C. I am sure that is helpful. The Spirit is sufficient for us. It is a question of faith and the Spirit.
A.H.G. Have you the thought that the faith of the Son of God has a great bearing on this matter – the light of the Son of God in the heart?
G.R.C. Yes, and especially viewed, as Paul is viewing Him, as our substitute; “the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me”.
J.S.E. One does not want to be severe, but these two allusions to faith and the Spirit, do they not become evidently deficient in us if tardiness marks us?
G.R.C. And does not the presentation of Christ at the begin-ning of chapter 3 help as to that,
R.M.Y. Do you think it was portrayed in the person of Paul?
G.R.C. I would say so, and specially in his ministry.
C.H. Mainly his ministry, do you think? The powerful effect of the ministry in the Spirit. It is the idea, is it not, of setting the thing out on a canvas.
G.R.C. Is it not set out very clearly in Numbers 19?
C.H. Quite so.
A.B.P. Would not the brands also come into that? I wondered if they were not administered in the same spirit in which Jesus had been crucified.
C.H. They were the brands of a slave.
J.S.E. Is not the crucifixion presented here as the murderous attack of the leaders connected with the legal system?
G.R.C. Quite so; and yet while men crucified Him, there the judgment fell, did it not? He took the guilt upon Himself.
J.S.E. Yes, but I was thinking of the word crucified. The judgment fell on Christ at the hand of God, but that did not fall on Paul, and yet Paul says, “I am crucified with Christ”.
G.R.C. It was really the grace of God that he could take the ground of being crucified with Christ. It is a marvellous thing that a man is privileged to take that ground.
J.S.E. And does that not raise questions with us as to how far we have accepted, whilst we are here, the position that has been accorded by men to Christ.
G.R.C. Do you think, therefore, that we can help one another by this portrayal: “Jesus Christ has been portrayed, crucified among you”. If this portrayal were understood, what emotions it would arouse in us!
J.S.E. So that if I am tied up with something outside of the truth and the liberty of sonship, I could be of no positive help at all to any of my brethren. The thing must be seen in myself.
G.R.C. I am sure it was. And what he shows is that the whole truth of the gospel was at stake.
H.V. Would you say something, please, about chapter 5: 24, “But they that are of the Christ have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts”. How is that connected with what is being said?
G.R.C. I think he is putting them on their mettle. That is the idea of admonition. Admonition is not legality. We should admonish one another.
W.C. Immediately he follows it by, “If we live by the Spirit, let us walk also by the Spirit”.
G.R.C. It would. The Spirit is wholly available to us. is He not? The idea of sons of oil seems to me a wonderful thing. It is open to each one of us to be a son of oil.
J.T.Jr. It is an interesting matter that you bring up in Zechariah. What really precedes it should be attended to, too, that the filthy garments are taken away. That is prior to what is said about the sons of oil.
G.R.C. In a practical way it is needed.
J.T.Jr. Well, we are to see to it, and the local assemblies should see to it.
G.R.C. Although, primarily, I suppose, the filthy garments taken away would be the re-establishment of the remnant, who felt the state of things and all the sins of the dispensa-tion, typically in the joy of the gospel. The truth of the gospel had not changed.
J.T.Jr. Quite so. But the truth of the gospel is the whole gospel, which takes us down to the death of Christ. The crucifixion is spoken about in Galatians, that is the point he is making.
C.A.M. Is it remarkable that there was one man who could refer to the fact that he was crucified with Christ. If we think of the thief on the cross, he was delivered by a request that he should be saved, made to the Saviour, from the cross. But his testimony was to the perfections of Christ.
C.H. Is your point as to sonship that it should not delay faithfulness, because the Son Himself was very faithful in regard to His Father’s house, even taking a whip of cords;
G.R.C. Not at all. It is a question of the way it is done.
C.H. The word “reprove” in chapter 18: 15 is a word that involves that I am able to show the true nature of the thing.
G.R.C. And can we be in the liberty of sonship ourselves unless we have come to a true judgment? Is not that the point of Romans 7 and 8?
C.H. Quite so.
A.J.G. Do you think there is something important in chapter 5, where it says, “Ye ran well; who has stopped you that ye should not obey the truth?”
G.R.C. As I understand it, obedience, according to God, is always the obedience of faith.
A.J.G. Quite so; obedience that finds its power in confidence in God; but still the truth is there to be obeyed, is it not?
G.R.C. It is. The word of God comes to us, and the answer to it is the obedience of faith. It should be obeyed in faith.
A.P.C.L. When he says, “I do not set aside the grace of God”, would he have in mind that the grace of God is an active matter that teaches us, according to Titus 2: 12, how to move in certain conditions. in relation to what Christ is securing?
G.R.C. I am sure that is right. Perhaps you will enlarge on it.
A.P.C.L. We sometimes have, I feel, a defective idea of grace. But grace is the operative principle, is it not, on which God moves, and by it He brings salvation, and teaches us how to live, setting aside matters which would hinder us.
G.R.C. The grace of God is a wonderful thing. Working out through the Lord it says,
R.W.S. Would not the Spirit help us to do violence to national characteristics?
G.R.C. I am sure He would, and He would help us through this portrayal, because we are all partial to our own national characteristics.
R.W. When it speaks in Acts 11 of Barnabas having gone down to Antioch, it says, “having arrived and seeing the grace of God, rejoiced”; and did that make way for the teaching of Paul?
G.R.C. I think so. Grace was operating, and Paul was the man to establish them in it; but grace does not mean compromise. It is the power for faithfulness.
J.S.E. In Matthew the Lord insists on His baptism being connected with the fulfilment of all righteousness.
G.R.C. John was not understanding at that time what all righteousness meant. He would have prevented the Lord identifying Himself with the repentant remnant.
J.S.E. So that this tardiness to which reference has been made is an evidence that righteousness is not being fulfilled,
F.J.F. A person might adopt a son, but he cannot give him the spirit of sonship. It is in the Spirit’s power alone that we can enjoy it and practise it.
G.R.C. And then, as receiving the Spirit, it says in chapter 4: 6, “Because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father”.
A.B.P. So in Romans 8, where it says, “If Christ be in you, the body is dead on account of sin”, does that involve the appropriation of the teaching that we have earlier in the book, so that the Spirit may be free in us to bring in life and peace?
G.R.C. I think so. The body is dead means deliverance. It is this body of death in chapter 7, “who shall deliver me out of this body of death?”
A.B.P. In that sense “Christ in you” is Christ in you militantly, is it not? I say that because of
G.R.C. I remember that; I would like more help on it.
A.B.P. I wondered if it is not the appropriation of Christ in the active power of militancy to meet the conditions which would prevent us from entering into life, so that the Spirit can be free to be the power to bring us into life and peace.
G.R.C. So Paul says here, “Christ lives in me”. On his side he is living by the faith of the Son of God, but the result in him is that Christ lives in him. “No longer live I”, that is a delivered man.
A.H. How do you understand that expression, “Christ lives in me”?
P.L. Wholly given over to Christ, would you say?
G.R.C. I would say so. Nothing was seen in that man but Christ. Christ was living in his affections, and there was nothing seen in him but Christ.
A.B.P. Does it link with 2 Corinthians, “bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested”?
G.R.C. I think that is how it would work out in testimony.
A.W. Why does it say, “crying, Abba, Father”? The Lord said, “Abba, Father” in Gethsemane.
G.R.C. Does it not show the urgency of the Holy Spirit in the matter?
A.W. Is it not the delivered man who cries; it is the cry of deliverance, of victory, you might say.
G.R.C. It would be in Romans 8; but one would think in Galatians 4 it is the Spirit’s own urgency, so that young believers, whose experience may yet be little, need not be discouraged, because,
J.S.E. Could it be intelligently said that in Romans the cry is in the joy of sonship, whereas in Galatians the cry of the Spirit is in view of the saints coming into that joy?
G.R.C. Yes. He would give us tastes of it, would He not, with a view to our being prepared to face the exercises of Romans, and coming into the joy of it substantially?
R.G.B. The Lord said, “Abba, Father”, in the face of His greatest sorrow. Do you think we would be helped from flinching from the sufferings that obedience to the truth involves, if we were more in the joy of sonship?
G.R.C. That seems the setting of Romans 8, “If indeed we suffer with him”.
J.T.Jr. Then in regard to the matter introduced as to Christ, as militant, there are the two sides of things in regard to the truth;
G.R.C. Yes, “being in conflict he prayed more intently”.
C.H. You are not, in what you said earlier, making the term “legality” a synonym for faithfulness, are you?
G.R.C. No, not at all.
C.H. I think that ought to be made clear.
| G.R.C. What one – I suppose I am right in this – was thinking is this, that the greatest numerical losses we have had of late years have been through the Galatian spirit, Mr. H. We have had conflicts for the truth and casualties have been limited, but the Galatian error can be a very disastrous thing. What would you say to that?
C.H. There were other moral questions underneath as well, were there not? G.R.C. Yes. J.T.Jr. I did not get that. What did you say, legality was the cause of the great numbers. Is that what you said? G.R.C. Was that not so? J.T.Jr. No, I could not accept that. I do not accept that statement. I could not accept it. Note: The above remarks were not included originally. See London Meetings, 1959 in the Introduction. G.A.R. |
H.C. Could you help us as to the difference between legality on the one hand, and the imperative commandment of the Lord?
G.R.C. The commandments of the Lord are imperative, but they are to be applied in the spirit in which Paul applied them; they are applied in consistency with the dispensation in which we live. That is how I understand it.
| J.H. Might I ask for a repetition of the statement Mr. T. made?
G.R.C. Mr. T. may have more information than I have as to the losses that have occurred in New Zealand. J.T.Jr. There have been losses besides New Zealand; there have been losses in many places, but then not on the principle that legality was the cause of them; I could not accept that. Note: The above remarks were not included originally. See London Meetings, 1959 in the Introduction. G.A.R. |
G.M. Is there a reference that would help us in Genesis 48, where the matter of sonship is referred to, and Jacob spoke of “the God that shepherded me all my life long”, and of “the Angel that redeemed me”.
G.R.C. This book stresses the Spirit very much, as we have noticed. And we need to know the Spirit, and to give Him full place, as olive branches, sons of oil, and I believe that is the way we come into the gain and liberty of sonship.
Now if we might pass on to the last chapter, it says,
A.B.P. Is Paul a son of oil when he says, “peace upon them, and mercy”, the bringing in of peace? Would the oil suggest that?
G.R.C. I would like to know more of what is in your mind.
A.B.P. I was thinking of Luke 10, where the lawyer could set out the truth perfectly, but was not balanced by the priestly service of the son of oil.
G.R.C. That is very interesting. The Samaritan brings all supplies, does he not, and the oil is first, and then the wine, showing the need of oil if there is to be healing and joy.
A.B.P. So that the power of the kingdom comes into operation in Luke 10 – righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Ques. Does Revelation 11 show the sons of oil in the scene of suffering and testimony?
G.R.C. Quite so, and you could not think of them as being other than entirely separated to God.
J.J.T. Could we have some help on the rule of new creation that has been referred to?
G.R.C. It is natural to us to like rules. We have the Lord’s commandments, they are imperative,
We were speaking this morning about the judgment and outlook that Paul had, his outlook on new creation.
J.T.Jr. He precedes that by the cross; he says, “But far be it from me to boast save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world”.
G.R.C. That is most important.
J.T.Jr. We will not know much about new creation if we do not understand that. It is the world in both settings.
G.R.C. The world crucified to me, and I to the world.
F.J.F. Should the Lord Jesus Himself be the centre of every gathering with us?
G.R.C. I would say He is that normally, through grace.
J.T.Jr. And where He is, there is ecstasy, is there not?
G.R.C. Good. I was thankful for the word last night as to the cross, immediately after the light of the assembly.
E.E.P. Would the reference to the brands of the Lord Jesus help us in relation to the Lord’s supper? I have in mind the testimonial side and what we lay our hands on, on Lord’s day morning.
G.R.C. The brands of the Lord Jesus bear on all that we have been saying as to the sufferings of the testimony, which one, alas, can say little about. But Paul bore them in his body, the brands of the Lord Jesus.
J.M. Paul points out that these law teachers were seeking to avoid persecution because of the cross of Christ.
M.H.T. As to the question of the rule of new creation, is it of interest to see that in 2 Corinthians 10 the apostle contrasts what he speaks of as “our rule” and “another’s rule of things made ready to hand”?
G.R.C. He is referring there to service, which is a different thing. It is the measure of the rule which the God of measure had appointed. But the sons of God walk by the rule of new creation in the power of the Spirit.
A.B.P. What is the difference between that and the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?
G.R.C. Is not that the power for the walk? Is it not like the well springing up? “The law of the Spirit …” would involve subjection on our side. What would you say about that, Mr. T.?
J.T.Jr. I think there would be a connection with Romans 8 “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death”.
G.R.C. That would set him free to walk according to this rule, would it not?
J.T.Jr. I think so. It is a matter of the Spirit in Romans 8, so that, as you have said, the Spirit is brought in here in Galatians. Things flow out from God through the Spirit; that is to guide us.
A.P.C.L. Why is the cross presented as “the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ” in this setting, giving the full title, and, in a certain sense, bearing on our assembly affections? Is it in view of stimulating us?
G.R.C. I would think so. The full title affects us.
A.P.C.L. I was wondering whether the legality, of which you have spoken, would militate against the idea of the radiancy which has come before us earlier?
G.R.C. It would. Paul speaks much about principles in this epistle;
W.D. Is it not remarkable that the Lord said to the two who wanted to call down fire from heaven, when the Samaritan village refused Him, that they knew not what spirit they were of?
G.R.C. Quite so.
–.G. Why is the allusion to the Israel of God brought in, in the end of verse 16?
G.R.C. I think it is the dignity of the saints as moving in the power of the Spirit. Israel means prince of God. The assembly at the present time is the true Israel of God. God said, “Israel is my son, my firstborn … Let my son go, that he may serve me”.
J.McK. Would the truth of sonship be the best possible way of setting love out? A son would be the greatest exponent of love, would he not?
G.R.C. Quite so. God revealed His Son in Paul, and sonship was seen in expression in him.
| At the close of the reading, following the last remark, and the giving out of hymn 116, the following conversation occurred: G.R.C. Before we go on to that (i.e., the singing of the hymn), I regret if I have said anything wrong about the New Zealand matter, Mr. T. But I thought that was your own judgment of it. I had understood that. (See footnote*). J.T.Jr. I never said that. The losses amongst us are because of the disregard of principles that govern the house of God. A.P.C.L. When you were saying that, Mr. C., had you specifically in mind the matter of New Zealand, and not general matters? G.R.C. Well, only because of the extent of the casualties. A.P.C.L. Well I would like to say that should be made clear, that you were referring to a specific case in which numbers had been lost. C.H. Was there no vital issue there, at Auckland? J.T.Jr. Large numbers were lost, and because of the disregard of principles that govern the house of God. R.W. Is it not the activity of the legal mind that so many have gone out from us? J.T.Jr. That is what you say, is it? I could not say that. R.W. That is what I thought. J.T.Jr. I could not say that. A.J.G. That would have to be shown, would it not? It was largely a question of underlying moral conditions, and, as had been said, disregard of divine principles. A.W.G.T. I was just enquiring if it was the general disregard of divine principles, or whether some specific divine principle was at issue? J.T.Jr. Well, you have to look into your mind to see what the thing is. The principles that were violated were what we would say were principles that govern the house of God. If we ignore them people get out of fellowship. That is what happened. Note: The above remarks were not included originally. See London Meetings, 1959 in the Introduction. G.A.R. |
| * This understanding was the result of reading a copy of a letter – received by me [i.e., G.R.C.] soon after the letter was written – from Mr. J. Taylor Jr. to Dr. D. J. Martin of Sydney, dated 14th July, 1957, from which the following extracts are quoted:
“Extremeness is what marked the whole procedure against W.J.B. To say he taught error is extreme. A loving spirit in a fellow minister would say he made a mistake as to the interpretation of Galatians 6: 1 and J.T.’s ministry … “You and the others who were prominent in that sorrowful matter are not to be justified at all by the schismatic act of W.J.B. and others, as to the harsh, legal, unscriptural approach that was made by the three assemblies (the leaders being responsible) acting the way they did, which was far worse than what W.J.B. said … “The conduct in the assembly in Auckland that followed W.J.B.’s expulsion on May 15th, 1952, has been described as a “reign of terror”. What followed W.J.B.’s restoration was his support of the extreme measures at Dargaville and Totara North. The assembly has been discredited by both sides. This whole matter could have been avoided; what it has brought out is the legal element, the worldly element, the extreme element, and the absence of the Spirit of the New Covenant amongst us. “The letter kills”, 2 Cor. 3: 6, “but the Spirit quickens”. May you be quickened by the Spirit to judge the root that led to the May 15th (1952) withdrawal action.” Note: The above footnote was not included originally. See London Meetings, 1959 in the Introduction. G.A.R. |