G.R.C. This book is full of enquiry. Zechariah is in the spirit of enquiry all through these chapters, and we were thinking that the service of the angel that talked with him

• would, in our day, be performed by the Holy Spirit, and would indicate the terms of intimacy upon which He is pleased to be with us.

• It does not say that the angel talked to him, but with him.

• There was mutual intercourse between Zechariah and the angel, Zechariah being ever on the line of enquiry, although at times challenged as to what he saw, so that he had to answer.

• It may be that, as we appreciate more the personal presence of the Spirit and the intimate terms upon which He is prepared to be with us, we shall find ourselves able to extend the idea of prophetic meetings without fear of confusion.

• I think sometimes it is fear of confusion, and fear of persons speaking without being led by the Spirit, that prevents us doing it.

F.M. That is exactly where we need help.

G.R.C. I think perhaps the answer lies in this, that as we learn more of the intimate terms on which the Spirit is pleased to be with us,

• and learn to confide in Him and commune with Him, we shall find that we can confidently leave matters in His charge.

F.M. We would like to have that made clear. We have been thinking of the great place in 1 Corinthians 14 has in relation to the assembly, and therefore the Spirit would speak in that setting?

G.R.C. Yes. And I think it will bear on the chapter now before us as to the light.

• Manifestations of the Spirit are mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12, and it is through manifestations of the Spirit that divine light shines in the temple of God.

A.E.M. Should we not go forward by what is right rather than by past experience? I think the ministry meeting is right in the three-day meetings.

G.R.C. You think it would be good to give up one evening?

A.E.M. Yes. One address, one ministry meeting, and the preaching of the gospel. It is usual on the other side and has proved profitable, has it not Mr. McC?

S.McC. It has proved very profitable.

G.R.C. Are you expectant of something prophetic in the evening that you give up to the ministry meeting?

A.E.M. I would expect more power in a ministry meeting, where God is speaking direct to us, than in an enquiry.

• 1 Corinthians 14 speaks much about the assembly edifying the assembly, and the whole assembly came together into one place.

G.R.C. Did not Mr. Taylor make it clear that a three-day meeting such as this is really an Edinburgh meeting. It links with the local assembly in Edinburgh.

• So that if a ministry meeting is held on an occasion like this it would be in that setting.

• One is impressed with the thought of the angel that talked with Zechariah, suggesting the intimate terms on which the Spirit is pleased to be with us. Would you think the application is right?

A.E.M. Yes I think so. The first verse is interesting,

• “And the angel that talked with me came again and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep”.

• If we connect it with days of recovery, in J.N.D’s day, the Spirit came prominently before the brethren, and this did away with the clerical system.

G.R.C. That is very good. And do you think that the vision of chapter 4 requires more spiritual discernment than that of chapter 3?

• We may have received an apprehension of Paul’s gospel, as recovered in these days,
  • so that we know something of our liberty in Christ Jesus, our place before God in Him;

• but is it not another matter to apprehend what is established down here in the presence of the Spirit and that which He has wrought. Do not we require to be wakened out of sleep to see this?

A.E.M. Yes quite so.

J.McK. Does 1 Corinthians 14: 1,

• “Be emulous of spiritual manifestations”

• set us on that line? It is not a question of having reached something once, but we are to be continually on the alert and in pursuit of it.

G.R.C. That is the point of this vision, because it supposes a continuous flow of oil to maintain a continuous outshining through the lamps, so he says,

• “I see, and behold, a lamp-stand all of gold”.

• That would refer to the product of the Spirit’s work.

• However obscured it has become, the Spirit’s work is all of gold; the assembly viewed in that way is as a vessel all of gold.

S.McC. That would be a distinct help, I feel, in regard to the meeting for ministry, to see this lamp-stand all of gold;

• and thus not to fear as to who should take part, but to see what it is in the divine mind, do you not think?

G.R.C. It is wonderful to get the divine view. However obscure the assembly has become through the inroads of what is from man, it is still here, the product of the Spirit’s work, and it is a lamp-stand all of gold.

• And then does not the bowl upon the top of it suggest a continuous flow, fed by the two sons of oil?

S.McC. I think what you are referring to just now is very important, because of the attack that the enemy is making,

• that, because of public ruin and breakdown in the assembly as the professing body, we cannot entertain the thought of the assembly. The enemy really is in that, is he not?

G.R.C. He is. This shows that we need to be awakened out of sleep to see it. We need to be alert.

• The lamp-stand all of gold is still here before God, and the seven lamps are on it, showing that the light of God in its completeness is available to us in a day of recovery.

• Just as the full truth of the gospel is available at the end of the dispensation, so also is the truth of the assembly.

• The full light of God is still available, because the Spirit Himself is still here.

S.McC. Is it not striking that, in the opening of the Revelation, stress is laid on the seven spirits of God, and their bearing upon the seven assemblies,

• as if to remind us that whatever may be the position publicly, there is fulness and completeness in the Spirit to meet it?

G.R.C. And the assemblies there are called golden lamps.

G.M.S. Does not the prophet Haggai speak of it in figure, prophesying at the same time when he says

• “The word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, and my Spirit, remain among you: Fear ye not”, chapter 2: 5.

G.R.C. That is a wonderful thing. The Spirit being here means that the full light of God as to Himself,

• and the full light of His thoughts as to His people, is still available to the saints,

• provided we are prepared to build and bring about house conditions.

• This lamp-stand has to be housed, and that was the point at the moment – to build a house.

• If the house of God is not functioning, the truth of it and the order of it not maintained, there is no setting for the lamp-stand all of gold.

J.S.E. Does “this place” in Haggai 2: 9 stand in vivid contrast to the land of Shinar where the ephah was carried?

• I thought “this place”, as it is said
  • “in this place will I give peace”,

• represented for us the assembly as the sphere where God is at home,
  • whereas the land of Shinar, and the allusion to the plate of lead, shows how certain matters are carried in a fixity and flexibility which allows no room for enlargement?

• The lamp-stand is the positive thing that we are to pursue, so that what is proper to the “place” might be filled out amongst us.

G.R.C. And as we apprehend, and are helped to function in, what is positive relative to the lamp-stand, we are enabled to judge all that is wrong.

• The ability to come into line with God’s judgment of matters in chapter 5, depends upon our apprehending the truth of chapter 4.

J.S.E. It is a question of what we see and I would like to ask, does the lamp-stand here bear the same interpretation as the candle-stick in Exodus 25?

G.R.C. I would not think so. I think the lamp-stand here would be typical of the assembly as the vessel of light.

J.S.E. That is what I am wanting to get at, because the word for candle-stick in Exodus really is said to mean place of light. It says,

• “In this place I will give peace”.

• The assembly is truly, in the mind of God, a place of light.

• And that being so we can dispense in our minds with the constant reference to the ruin, and proceed with the help of the Lord and of the Spirit in relation to what is normal to the place.

G.R.C. I think it would be right to say that the lamp-stand here is typical of the assembly as the vessel of light.

• It is a distinctive vision – a lamp-stand all of gold with a bowl upon the top of it. It is a system of supply down here. There is
  • “a bowl upon the top of it, and its seven lamps thereon, seven lamps and seven pipes to the lamps … and two olive trees beside it, one on the right of the bowl, and the other on the left of it”.

• So it is a system of supply depending upon two olive trees, or olive branches as they are called later, which fill the bowl; and the supplies go through the seven pipes to each of the seven lamps.

• It seems to me to imply the truth of the body according to 1 Corinthians 12, and in connection with what has been said as to our fears, if the seven pipes to each lamp are functioning, we need have no fear.

• The lamps may be applied to those through whom the light may shine at the moment.

• The seven suggests completeness of light, and God would surely give completeness of light in every locality, as bearing upon any situation, and the lamps would be those through whom the light shines.

• But they are fed by seven pipes from the bowl; so that everyone in the company should be in exercise.

• We would all be included in the bowl and the seven pipes to each lamp, sisters as well as brothers; it is a question of the supply of the Spirit.

F.M. With regard to what has been called attention to in Haggai, as to my spirit being with you, in verses 6 and 7 there would be a further encouragement to go on in the recognition of the great place that the Spirit has;

• “Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith Jehovah of hosts. Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou dost become a plain; and he shall bring forth the headstone with shoutings; Grace, grace unto it!”.

• I wondered whether this would encourage us as to going forward with the matter the Lord may intend.

G.R.C. I think so. The vision is given to encourage the builders.

• In the vision of the lamp-stand all of gold, there is the great encouragement of seeing the assembly as wholly of divine handiwork, and of seeing that
  • the light in its fulness is available at the close of the dispensation. There is no diminution.

• There are the seven lamps and seven pipes to the lamps, the whole idea is one of completeness.

• God is light, and He is in the light, and the full light is shining, but that is to encourage the builders.

• Building is a testing matter, but unless house conditions and the order proper to the house of God is brought about amongst us, we shall not get the gain of the lamp-stand all of gold.

A.P.C.L. Would you distinguish for us the lamp-stand and the temple as brought forward in Corinthians? It says in regard of the temple, that it can be corrupted.

• “If anyone corrupt temple of God, him shall God destroy”, 1 Corinthians 3: 17.

G.R.C. Do you not think that the temple in 1 Corinthians 3: 17 links with the building in verses 4-7 here.

• It is a question of building, bringing about temple conditions. The lamp-stand is in the temple.

• Once we have secured holy conditions proper to God’s temple we can take account of the assembly as it is according to God, as the great vessel of light, and conditions are brought about where the pipes and lamps can function.

A.P.C.L. So it says “Do ye not know that ye are temple of God”,

• not because the Spirit dwells, but
  • “and that the Spirit of God dwells in you”.

• As there are temple conditions and the Spirit of God dwells, there would be the realisation of the lamp-stand all of gold that cannot be corrupted.

G.R.C. I think if we are truly in the gain of Corinthians we shall be ready for Ephesians.

• Corinthians brings out the idea of the lamps, that is, the manifestations of the Spirit through the members of the body, and the pipes – everything functioning. But Ephesians says,
  • “be filled with the Spirit”.

• Such a suggestion does not come into Corinthians, they were not equal to it; but in Ephesians the apostle says, “be filled”, it is our matter to be filled, He is here to fill us, here for that purpose.

• In Ephesians Paul is speaking to a company who are equal to such an exhortation.

• And that is like the bowl on top, the assembly as a vessel capable of being filled by the Spirit, so that there is no lack in the supplies through the pipes to the lamps.

A.P.C.L. So that the two olive trees are said to be on either side of the bowl, not exactly the lamps.

G.R.C. Quite so. The olive trees are on either side of the bowl to ensure that the bowl is kept filled.

A.H.G. You spoke of the seven pipes involving the sisters, sisters having their part in it. Could you say more as to how that works out in practice?

G.R.C. It is the sensitiveness of the vessel. The bowl would suggest the assembly as the vessel of the Spirit, which is to be filled, and to be kept filled, as we might say;

• and then, as to the way the oil is carried, I believe the spirituality of the sisters would greatly affect any ministry meeting.

• If the sisters are in a spiritual state, and dependent upon God, the flow will be greatly facilitated through the pipes, to the lamps. And so with all of us.

• If we come to the meeting in a careless state of mind, not specially exercised, no prayer beforehand in our private chambers, not in self-judgment as judging everything unsuitable to God’s temple,
  • then, when we come together, it is not surprising if there are certain manifestations which are evidently not of the Spirit.

• Words may be given which are not of the Spirit. There may be knowledge in them, but no power.

• But if we are all in exercise, every member of the body, and come together in self-judgment, realising what an important meeting the ministry meeting is, so that all the pipes are available for supply, I think we shall find that the lamps will shine.

W.W.S. Does this involve spirituality, the bowl being on the top of it, filled with the Spirit; but there is this free and unhindered flow in and through persons who are spiritual and who give place to the Spirit?

G.R.C. The assembly is characteristically a vessel filled with the Spirit. That is what marked the beginning, and it is to mark the end of the dispensation.

J.McK. The foot-note makes it clear that there are seven pipes to each lamp. Would that imply the necessity for the holy concentration of all the brethren on the matter?

G.R.C. That is just what I thought. A brother gets up and gives a word in the power of the Spirit, but he is supplied through the seven pipes;

• it is not merely a personal matter, everybody in the company is in the matter, and that is why he has such power in giving the word.

S.McC. We would have that illustrated, would we not, in Luke 1: 67.

• You will remember that the prophetic word flows out of the holy and happy conditions between Mary and Elizabeth, as evidenced in the way they greeted one another.

• Later it says of Zechariah that he was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, and he gave a wonderful word.

G.R.C. That is an interesting allusion. While Zacharias was speechless at the time, what an effect the conversation of those sisters must have had upon him, how his soul must have been filled.

• They were like the pipes, were they not, filling the lamp. Then, when his speech was restored, he gave expression to the remarkable prophecy.

A.B. Referring again to Zacharias speaking in the power of the Spirit, would it be the outcome of unbelief being dispelled by the spiritual surroundings?

G.R.C. Very good. It shows the importance of the state of the whole company, including the sisters, for it was sisters there.

• No doubt listening to those sisters, and seeing their faith and love, all contributed to the dispelling of his unbelief and he became available as a vessel of the Spirit.

• And surely those of us who are brothers have had somewhat similar experiences.

• We have come to the ministry meeting not feeling at all equal to it, but there has been such a spiritual atmosphere that, as the meeting has proceeded, we have been filled and have been able to give a word.

A.H.D. Would it be where the fulness of the Spirit is recognised, and house conditions are present, that the Spirit is free to operate, so that the Headstone is brought forth?

• Would it answer, in any way, to the elevated and exalted character of the ministry which the Lord is giving now, where such conditions are present, even in a day of outwardly small things?

G.R.C. I think that is right. The first part of the vision stresses the Spirit and His work in the assembly.

• But this is all to encourage the builders, because, while light in its fulness is available, there will not be the conditions for the bowl, pipes and lamps to function unless house conditions are maintained, holy conditions suited to God’s temple.

• And so, the building of the house must proceed in order that the gain of the Spirit’s presence may be realised, and where this is realised, we get the gain of the headship of Christ.

J.S.E. Is it important that all the wealth of this chapter flows by way of Joshua being clothed in festival robes, and capacitated to keep the house and the courts?

G.R.C. I am glad you have mentioned that, because we ought to take account of the link between these chapters.

• Unless we are established in the truth of the gospel, we are not ready for this chapter.

• But if we are established in the truth of the gospel, and our liberty in Christ Jesus, so that we are freed from the filthy garments,
  • it involves, as a corollary, that we are freed from anything that would grieve the Spirit; we are thus ready for the assembly.

J.S.E. I feel that this matter of what is prophetic during a season like this is something that we should ponder, and give our minds to more thoroughly, because in this chapter

• we have the challenge as to who has despised the day of small things.

• That has to be kept in our minds, because if we begin to bring in the negative, it is like despising the day of small things, is it not?

G.R.C. It is. It is marvellous what we have, in what is outwardly a day of small things,

• the fulness of the truth of Paul’s gospel in an enhanced way, in the festival robes,

• and then the fulness of the Spirit’s presence and service, involving the full light of God in the temple.

• While ‘house’ conditions are essential, it does not mean that the house must be finished before we begin to prove the gain of the Spirit temple-wise. Things go on concurrently.

• As we are set for the building of the house and for the establishment of holiness and divine order amongst us, we begin to get the gain of the lamp-stand functioning;
  • and the more the one proceeds, the more the other functions, all working together with a view to bringing forth the headstone, with shoutings – a marvellous thing –

• arriving at completion, the full thought of God as to Christ as Head relative to the assembly as God’s abode and as the vessel of His service and praise.

J.S.E. Is that why the thought of spiritual manifestations in 1 Corinthians 14 is immediately linked with prophecy, and then edification or building is referred to?

W.S.S. I was going to refer to the same passage, prophecy necessarily being for building up or edification,

• and therefore the prophetic word would necessarily have the whole plan in mind

• and would not be detached from the whole scope of what the Spirit is bringing before us.

G.R.C. Quite so. So that the Spirit of God does not wait until the building is finished, otherwise we should not get the gain of His presence at all;

• but if our hearts are set towards building, and maintaining what is suitable to God, we begin to get the gain of the lamp-stand,

• the light of God shines, and the more the light shines the more energised we are in building.

J.McK. Do you think that the early verses – verses 1-3 – give us the basic furnishing by the Spirit in the assembly,

• but the later references – verses 11-14 – stress spirituality in what is instrumental, in the person?

G.R.C. In verses 11-14 Zechariah receives more light.

• It says, “I answered and said unto him, what are these two olive trees on the right of the lamp-stand and on its left?”,

• and he gets no answer. It was divinely ordered that he should not get an answer, because it was time for him to think things over again himself.

• We must not be discouraged if we do not always get an answer to a genuine enquiry at once.

• If we do not get an answer, it is because God is waiting for us to think the whole matter over again as to what we have already seen. Have we seen it rightly?

• And so, like Zechariah, we must not be deterred, we must go on with our enquiries. He says,
  • “I answered the second time and said unto him, What are the two olive branches?”

• You see, he had thought it over and looked at it again and he does not say trees now, but branches.
  • “I answered the second time and said unto him, What are the two olive-branches which are beside the golden tubes that empty the gold out of themselves?”

• In looking into the matter again he had received adjustment and now has a right view.

J.S.E. Would the olive trees stand rather in relation to fulness, whereas the olive branches to the representation of it in small conditions?

G.R.C. I had been wondering whether it linked with

• “my servant the Branch”.

• That is the view of Christ in this prophecy, and are we not to take character from Him?

A.P.C.L. The first question is a very general one, “What are these two olive trees on the right of the lamp-stand and on its left?”;

• but when he asks again it is “beside the two golden tubes”.

• Do you think he is getting a more intimate suggestion in his own soul of the functioning of the matter?

G.R.C. The golden tubes were not mentioned earlier.

J.McK. I had in mind referring to what was instrumental the way the matter works out amongst the saints. You see it in its divine perfection and completion in the earlier verses,

• but the real question arises as to how it becomes available amongst the saints.

G.R.C. It becomes available through sons of oil. That is what we have to see. And the sons of oil are olive branches.

• They take character from Christ, in His glorious manhood, because the Branch is the King and the Priest, as it says in chapter 6: 12-13.

J.A.C. Does this stress the necessity of being in continual communion with the Spirit as to all questions that may arise in our minds, so that we become readily adjusted and brought into line with what is before Him?

G.R.C. I think the sons of oil refer to persons who are wholly characterised by the Spirit, and that is the thing to have before us as a standard

• – persons wholly characterised by the Spirit in thought, feeling, action and word.

W.D. Does the Spirit select vessels, and communicate through them? Has there not been a challenge on that very point?

G.R.C. There is the general thought of what the Spirit is saying to the assemblies, that would be the general character of ministry at any time;

• but then, what He needs to say in localities would bear on the state of the locality.

• It would all be in line with the general trend of what He is saying to the assemblies, but it would bear on the immediate conditions.

• What was needed at Corinth was not the same as that which was needed at Ephesus or at Colosse.

W.S.S. Could I ask further about “the angel that talked with me came again”, does it emphasise the importance of the Spirit engaging the thoughts? Ezekiel says,

• “And the Spirit entered into me, and set me upon my feet”, 3: 24.

• Then later, “When I speak with thee, I will open thy mouth”, verse 27.

G.R.C. The Spirit does that with us. He speaks with us and He sets certain ones on their feet to express what should be said at that time.

• But then the final thing with Ezekiel is that he says
  • “the Spirit lifted me up … and a man was standing by me”,

• in view of his beholding and responding to the glory of the God of Israel. That is the end in view.

• The great point in the temple of God is that God is there, it is the shrine itself, and if the light shines in the temple, it is in order that every whit in it should utter glory.

W.S.S. So that whether it be Ezekiel in a time of brokenness, or Zechariah, it is all leading up to the house.

G.R.C. Exactly. And another thing we ought to keep in mind is that while the light is needed for men, it is in the first instance for God.

• Where it speaks of the lamps being lit – Exodus 25: 37 – the word is “cause to ascend”;
  • it is the same word as is used of burning on the altar of burnt offering.

• Why I mention that is because God dwells in light. In His essential Being He dwells in light unapproachable;
  • but if He comes to dwell amongst men it must be in conditions of light, where the light of Himself shines undimmed and where light shines as to His thoughts.

• And so in the tabernacle the lamp-stand lit up the whole scene that represented the divine mind.

• The tabernacle is called the temple of Jehovah in 1 Samuel 3: 3. The temple is the shrine, God is there, and God must dwell in conditions of light.

• The more we make way for the light to shine by the Spirit, the more we shall experience the presence of God in His shrine.

A.C.S.P. In that connection, is it instructive that the instruction in 1 Corinthians 14 as to the meeting for ministry finishes with a reference to God as the God of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints?

• I was linking it with what you said about the presence of God and house conditions, and wondering whether
  • on the one hand, it would assure us that we need have no fear about arranging a meeting for ministry, because God is there as the God of peace,

• and on the other hand, it would make us careful in His presence.

G.R.C. If we see to it that there are conditions that secure the presence of God, we need thus have no fear.

J.A.P. And would the second look be like the second epistle to Corinthians, where light is stressed

• “The God who spoke that out of darkness light should shine”, 2 Corinthians 4: 6?

G.R.C. I think that is right, and the light was shining now into Zechariah’s soul. What he says the second time is to be taken account of,

• “two olive branches which beside the golden tubes empty the gold out of themselves”

• – not empty the oil out of themselves, but empty the gold out of themselves.

A.H.G. Would you say a little more about the gold? “Empty the gold out of themselves”.

G.R.C. That is what the sons of oil do, they empty the gold out of themselves.

• We may come to a ministry meeting, or any other meeting, and be very concerned about the oil, and we may try to make the oil flow.

• But the way to secure a flow of oil is to empty the gold out of ourselves.

J.McK. Do you mean the ministry is like the pattern, like the lamp-stand itself – gold?

G.R.C. The gold is the divine nature.

• Paul shows in 1 Corinthians 13 that the ministry meeting will not work without the gold.

• In 1 Corinthians 12 he speaks of the manifestations of the Spirit, how the oil should flow through the members of the body, but in chapter 13
  • he as much as says, you will get nothing of this unless you can empty the gold out of yourselves.

A.B. Would the sons of oil, in that sense, be possessors of divine wealth?

G.R.C. Yes, wealth in the divine nature.

• If we are wholly characterised by the Spirit, the fruit of the Spirit will be manifest, and the first item is love – Galatians 5: 22.

• So sons of oil have the capacity to empty gold out of themselves, and there is nothing that sets a meeting free like that.

A.H.G. Is your thought that the gold refers more to what the person is?

G.R.C. Gold refers to the divine nature. And the pouring out of the gold is the way of more surpassing excellence. 1 Corinthians 12: 31.

• 1 Corinthians 12 sets out the truth of the lamp-stand in a locality, and speaks of manifestations of the Spirit.

• We come together and we say to ourselves, ‘We hope we shall get manifestations of the Spirit tonight’.

• But Paul says, I will show you the way of it; I will show you the way of more surpassing excellence;
  • if you want an atmosphere of liberty, in which there will be freedom for the oil to flow, the thing is to pour the gold out of yourselves.

A.P.C.L. Is it really characteristic?

• “The two golden tubes that empty the gold out of themselves”.

G.R.C. It is to be characteristic. We come together as at one another’s feet, in the spirit of John 13.

• What liberty there was after the Lord had displayed the gold in washing the feet of His own!

• They could ask questions freely in chapter 14; there was great liberty for enquiry and an outflow of the truth.

G.M.S. It says of the Lord

• “He emptied himself, taking a bondman’s form”.

G.R.C. Quite so. In all His path He was, as it were, emptying the gold, and thus setting people free in His presence.

• It is the gold that sets us free and provides an atmosphere in which the Spirit is free to use whom He will.

• The manifestation of the Spirit is given to each for profit; we do not know whom He is going to use on a particular night;
  • the essential thing is to be sure that there is an abundance of love, that we are at one another’s feet in love, so that there is nothing to hinder what the Spirit would do.

H.W. In speaking of the saints at Philippi, the apostle says he was willing to be poured out as a sacrifice for them.

• He had reached that state of being poured out like the Lord Himself.

G.R.C. He says to the Corinthians,

• “I shall most gladly spend and be utterly spent for your souls”.

Ques. Referring to Acts 20 and the many lights in the upper chamber, does Paul’s service in the resuscitation of Eutychus encourage us to go down?

G.R.C. That is a good illustration. There were many lights, the lamps were functioning upstairs, but Eutychus had fallen down.

• Paul was one who had the gold; he emptied the gold out of himself in going down to resuscitate Eutychus.

• Is what we are saying about the gold right, Mr. M?

A.E.M. Yes, I am greatly enjoying it.

E.B. Might we extend our enquiries as to meetings for prophetic ministry to fellowship meetings?

A.E.M. I would like to ask another question regarding the ministry meeting.

• Is it necessary for one brother to follow on, like the second chapter, and the third brother to follow on with the third chapter?

• Is it necessary for the words to be related to one another?

G.R.C. You mean the Lord might have two or three distinct words for us. I think we need help to have our minds free for that, because there is a tendency to feel that we ought to follow on.

A.E.M. As far as I am concerned, it spoils the ministry meeting of its distinctness. It is like three addresses.

G.R.C. I am glad to hear that. We should certainly make room for what is distinctive in each word, if the Lord so orders.

A.P.C.L. Would that not be implied in one having a revelation? Is that not something distinctive coming in during the period of the meeting?

J.S.E. Could we say that it is aptly illustrated in these two brothers, Haggai and Zechariah? Are not each of their sets of utterances to the brethren distinctive, not following on, but yet coordinated.

G.R.C. The first word of Zechariah was between those of Haggai, was it not?

J.S.E. Yes. What I meant was, Zechariah brings in the horses and the great matter of monarchical arrangement under the government of God.

• Whereas Haggai is distinctly laying on the brethren their negligence in relation to the house, and when they respond to that he gives them another word of comfort as to God’s pleasure in what they are doing.

• Would not those two brothers really illustrate what Mr. M. has said?

G.R.C. I think they do. If you look at the way they treat of the powers that be, Haggai only refers to them being shaken, whereas Zechariah views them in their present usefulness to God, does he not?

Ques. Do you think that if we have the regulated system in the first three verses clearly in our minds first, then there is plenty of room for the utmost liberty and variety in the words which flow out?

G.R.C. So that in 1 Corinthians you have the orderly system set out in chapter 12, then the gold in chapter 13, and then the practical working out of the matter in chapter 14.

Ques. Is not the ministry meeting an opportunity to get substance in variety, the rays of divine glory coming out more distinctly through two or three than through one?

G.R.C. I am sure we are getting help on this point. And I would like to raise a question with Mr. M.

• Is it essential for two or three words to follow one another without being interspersed by worship and praise?

• What has impressed me is what is said about the simple person or the unbeliever coming in. He hears a word which comes to his soul as the word of God,
  • and it says “falling down upon his face he will do homage to God”.

• He does not wait till the end of the meeting. And I wonder why the saints wait till the end of the meeting.

A.E.M. Very good.

A.P.C.L. In small localities, such as ours, that matter has been in mind. It is a great stimulation for praise to be interspersed when, perhaps, only two brothers are out.

G.R.C. If we receive what we are very conscious is a living word from God, would not God expect an immediate response in worship?

A.P.C.L. I have thought the same thing.

J.McK. You mean in some contribution Godward?

G.R.C. Yes.

J.S.E. Could we come back now to the question about the fellowship meeting?

G.R.C. We are still waiting for Mr. McC. to answer that.

S.McC. Well, all that one would say about it is that we have found it very profitable at different times.

• There has been no stated rule governing the matter.

• If a number have been together for fellowship meetings, and it was felt good by the local brethren to have a meeting for ministry, we have had it, and have had gain from it.

• At other times the brother has been asked to give an address.

G.R.C. Does that mean then that you would leave it to the exercise before God of the local brethren?

S.McC. I should think so.

J.S.E. I think that is what we need, the understanding, as Mr. Taylor put it, that administration is local, and the brethren in the place undertake in godly concern that the best should be forthcoming for the saints.

G.R.C. That is very good. God would give them wisdom for the moment.

A.P.C.L. Before the angel actually answered Zechariah’s question he says,

• “Knowest thou not what these things are? And I said, No, my lord”, verse 13.

• Even in regard of what we are speaking about now, is there not a sincerity about feeling that you just do not know, and does not this make way for the full and distinctive answer that would come from the Spirit?

G.R.C. It is important that in this chapter he uses the term “my lord”. He uses it in verse 5, and in verse 14, both times when he is admitting he does not know.

• I believe that attitude is right in the enquiry setting. We should all be very ready to admit we do not know, otherwise, how do we learn?

• And, if we link the angel with the Spirit, it means the acknowledgment of the lordship of the Spirit.

• But then I believe it would also imply right subjection in a young man to older spiritual men.

• This book is a great encouragement to young men but young men are not expected to be out of their place;
  • and in the assembly, the place of enquiry, young men should treat with respect those who are more spiritual than themselves, and not assume to be more spiritual than they are. Is that right?

A.P.C.L. That is what I had in mind.

H.C. Is it in line with the reference to the olive branches?

G.R.C. It says of the Lord Jesus as the Branch, that

• “He shall grow up out of his place”, Zech. 6: 12.

• Manhood was seen in Him in perfection at every stage of life, from childhood upwards. He is the model for us.

• There is every encouragement for young men, as this book shows,
  • but it is comely that they should frankly admit their need to be taught, and that

• a spirit of subjection should mark them, as evidenced in Zechariah addressing the angel as “My lord”.

J.S.E. Is it not interesting that in Philippi the first word that the jailor said was “Sirs”.

G.R.C. Yes. And is not that a word that is sometimes translated “Lord” in the New Testament?

J.S.E. Yes. That is why I brought it forward.

J.A.C. Is it interesting that that is the first word that Rebecca uses to the man? “Drink, my lord”.

G.R.C. That is very interesting. And my impression is that, if we are really subject to the Spirit, owning His Lordship, we shall be subject to spiritual men, and treat them with respect.

H.V. Would you say a word as to 1 Corinthians 14: 29.

• “And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge”.

• How are we to judge?

G.R.C. By the Spirit I would say. The seven eyes of verse 10 refer to His discernment.

• Words in a ministry meeting have in view edification, that is, building.

• Prophetic words may be exposing, but they are always to be constructive, and, as to the building, it say in verse 10
  • “For who hath despised a day of small things? Yea, they shall rejoice – even those seven – and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel: these are the eyes of Jehovah, which run to and fro in the whole earth”.

• They observe all that is being done, and if a brother gives a word that purports to be constructive, the test is, is it in accord with the plummet?

• If it is in accord with the plummet, those eyes will rejoice, and that means that the spiritual element in the company will rejoice.
  • “Let the others judge”.

• They will judge and discern that this is a good word, cutting in a straight line the word of truth. It is in accord with the divine plan of construction.

G.M.S. So it speaks of the personal pleasure of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12: 11, in

• “dividing to each in particular according as he pleases”,

• and this is a further aspect, do you think, of the Spirit’s joy?

G.R.C. It is. And we may be sure that, if we make way for Him to divide as He pleases, what is brought in will be in accord with the plummet. The plummet will be in the hand of Zerubbabel.

J.S.E. Is there any significance in the fact that it is two olive-branches, and not three?

• My memory goes back to a remark of Mr. Taylor’s in London in 1949, about two or three, and I seem to remember that he spoke of two in a very commendable way.

G.R.C. I remember that. He seemed to imply that two would be more normal than three, did he not?

• We are apt to form a habit of waiting for three.

• True, we have to make room for three, but if there were more scope for worship in response to what God has to say, we might find that two would be sufficient.

J.S.E. I was impressed with the allusion to homage and praise. If I were impressed with the power of a word and, may be, its particular bearing on myself, I would probably be moved to give thanks for it and to render homage in the presence of God.

G.R.C. So Paul in 1 Corinthians 14 speaks of singing and of giving thanks. I do not think he means that he would leave his singing and giving thanks till the close of the meeting – a kind of formal close with a hymn and prayer.

F.M. Do you think that now we are furnished with such a variety of hymns it would be a suitable time for the use of such.

G.R.C. I do.

F.M. Many small meetings have taken on the ministry meeting; and it may sometimes be that they only have one word, but the hymn book would furnish them with much in the way of worship and praise.

G.R.C. In the temple every whit utters glory. The service of God proceeds in the temple; it is there that the Seraphim say

• “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of hosts;” etc.

• Of course, we have to keep in mind what Mr. Taylor also said, that God speaking to us must be greater than our speaking to God. He spoke from off. the mercy seat.

• In the oracle of the house, God speaks, and we do not want to hinder Him by turning it into a “praise meeting”.

• Nevertheless, there is scope for praise and worship in response to His speaking.

S.McC. How do you understand the word in 1 Chronicles 25: 3 where it says of the sons of Jeduthan that they

• “prophesied with the harp, to give thanks and to praise Jehovah”?

G.R.C. I think it bears on what we are saying, and is very interesting, because an expression of thanksgiving and worship, and a hymn also, should be prophetic.

• Indeed, as regards the morning meeting, we have surely experienced that the service of song is prophetic.

• It is not prophetic as bearing on our state, but as bringing to us the mind of God in its fulness according to purpose;
  • and the benefit of having the mind of God brought to us in worship and song is that we are carried into it consciously,

• because, as you will remember, the word “music” in 1 Chronicles 15: 22 could be translated “transport”.

S.McC. Just so. And it says in 1 Chronicles 25: 5,

• “all these were sons of Heman the king’s seer in the words of God, to exalt his power”.

• That would link on, would it not?

G.R.C. It would. So that you would not shut out prophecy from the service following the Lord’s Supper?

S.McC. I think it is very important that we should expect God to speak to us in some way or another. That would be a normal outlook in the assembly.

G.R.C. And often there would be a direct word.

G.M.S. Do we have that in Mark 14,

• “And having sung a hymn, they went out to the mount of Olives. And Jesus said to them, All ye shall be offended”;

• a prophetic word, following the hymn?

G.R.C. Yes. Of course in the Lord’s Supper the prophetic word would normally be relative to purpose, to bring before us what is true in the mind of God.

• It is a great thing to have that kind of prophecy, and it is particularly suitable in the service following the Lord’s Supper.

• In the ministry meeting in the week, the Spirit of God often has to bring before us things that bear on our state;
  • that might also be needed in the morning meeting; but, if so, it would be sad, I should think.

• If our state is right, a word in the morning meeting presents things in their purity and blessedness before God.

• And, while a direct word is to be looked for, yet the very hymns and thanksgivings are prophetic in character, because they express in praise the mind of God according to purpose.

J.McK. J.N.D. in his preface to the hymn-book speaks of the hymn as being the vehicle that sets the soul in communion with Christ and the Father.

A.T. In Revelation 7: 12, after the prophetic word is unfolded, there is,

• “Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and strength to our God”.

• Then there is a reference to
  • “My lord, thou knowest”, verse 14

• – and the answer to the question follows.

G.R.C. That is a very interesting illustration of what is in mind; the prophetic word followed by worship, and then by further enquiry, in the spirit of subjection, by John. He is prepared to say, “My lord”.

H.W. If we have had a prophetic word during the week, ought it not to affect our prayer meetings?

• One does not often remember actual references in the prayer meeting to the prophetic word given the previous week.

G.R.C. That is a humbling thing. One has noticed in the prayer meetings in advance of the ministry meeting, a good deal of prayer is made for that meeting;

• but although the prayer is answered and we all feel God has spoken to us, yet it seems to be forgotten by the next Monday, and that is a solemn thing.

A.P.C.L. You were speaking about sisters in connection with the pipes of supply. Would not a hymn give opportunity for the sisters to come vocally into what is responsive?

G.R.C. Quite so. The whole company is in the matter of response to God.

S.R. Micah called for a minstrel at a difficult point in his ministry.

G.R.C. That bears on what we have said as to praise and worship coming between words in the ministry meeting, helping them forward.

J.A.P. There is an interesting foot-note to Proverbs 30 to the word “uttered” – “burden or oracle, as music”.

J.H. Could we have a word as to the ministry meeting being in a locality?

• The prophetic word may be given to those moved by the Spirit in a locality, but the final answer is seen in the two sons of oil that stand before the Lord of the whole earth.

• What may be given in a locality has its effect universally as under the Lord’s hand?

G.R.C. I think sons of oil would always have the universal rights of God in mind.

• The word “Lord” here would refer to His rights.

• We would, of course, have in mind His rights to the whole earth, but specially at the present time His universal rights in the assembly.

• What is said in any locality should be in keeping with those universal rights, and thus, while specially suited to the locality where uttered, it should be profitable for saints anywhere.

In chapter 6 we get further help as to God’s operations in government and our outlook upon the Gentile monarchies,

• and in the latter part of the chapter an idea of the wealth that accrues from God’s governmental dealings, for in their results they really enhance the priesthood and our appreciation of Christ.

W.S.S. The land of Shinar is Babylon.

G.R.C. Quite so, and Stephen shows in his address that Israel was transported to Babylon because they were already Babylonish

• “I will transport you beyond Babylon”, Acts 7: 43.

• He brings that in after referring to the golden calf.

• But I think the Lord would help us in our outlook on the Gentile Monarchies as viewed in this prophet.

S.McC. What was read before the meeting started should help us as to this matter, because it is remarkable that there should have been way made for the brethren in Australia in respect of trade unions and associations.

• As yet way has not been made in the U.S.A. which is a great concern.

• Some have been saying that the spirit of intercession you referred to earlier needs to be more intensified.

G.R.C. It is good to be reminded of the need for that in connection with the U.S.A. because it may not be widely known over here.

W.S.S. Is it not the same in some of the continental countries?

G.R.C. Yes. I hear that the brethren in France are considering an approach to the Authorities as to a conscience clause in respect of military service.

• This view of the Authorities is an elevated one.

• J.N.D. says that a horse is representative of divine energy in government, and that would be the view of it here; it is not government viewed as merely in the hands of men.

• These chariots with horses are said to be the four spirits of the heavens which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth. They are thus under control.
  • “The heavens do rule”,

• as it says in Daniel, 4: 26 and the Gentile Monarchies, from this point of view,
  • are governed and directed by the four spirits of the heavens which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth, so that what they do stands related to the operations of the Lord of all the earth.

S.McC. So we have no riders in this chapter, whereas in the Revelation the riders are made something of.

• I thought the fact that the riders were absent from this prophetic view here strengthens what you are saying.

• When the rider comes in it brings in what man is, does it not, in his operations.

G.R.C. Quite so. No riders are mentioned here, as though, as regards the governments themselves, there is no intelligence as to why they are doing what they are doing.

• But we know, for this is faith’s view of the matter, that what they are doing is under the direction of the four spirits of the heavens.

A.E.M. Sometimes the saints have to acquaint the authorities with what should be done.

G.R.C. Do you think this view of the authorities would help as to that?

A.E.M. I think so. They had to do with the High Court in the U.S.A.

G.R.C. So that faith, I suppose, as enlightened by this vision, could approach the Authorities in the recognition that

• they are really responsible, whether they know it or not, to the Lord of all the earth.

• I believe that, in many cases, even ungodly men, once they get into power, are made to feel that there is a power greater than themselves directing the operations of government.

H.W. It might be interesting for the brethren to know at this juncture that those in authority in Sydney encouraged the brethren to go round and let their views be well known to all the parties concerned, including the Opposition, the leader of which was very favourable to what the brethren had to say.

• Many questions were raised which really resulted in instruction for those who were in authority as to what to do.

Ques. Do the brethren think it necessary that we should wait on the government? In South Africa the brethren have come out from the unions but the government have not moved yet.

G.R.C. I think what we should do is to wait on God. God is our resource, the Lord of all the earth.

• We should wait on God in prayer and seek wisdom from Him as to waiting upon the government.

• And then, whatever we find the attitude of the government to be, even if it is not favourable to us for the time being, we must be faithful to God.
  • It is incumbent upon us to be separate from evil associations.

• In Daniel’s day there were times when they had to suffer; the government for the time being was not favourable and the only way out was to suffer.

• But then God was with them in their sufferings and the testimony they rendered in suffering led the Government, in due course, to amend the law.

S.McC. I think it is important to see that, in regard to our current matters, it may not involve that a way is completely opened up.

• Some may have to suffer, but the testimony is kept before men and the Authorities in that way, as to what God has here.

G.R.C. Do you not think it would be a mistake if we, in our approach to the Authorities, simply had in mind to avoid suffering.

• We would put before them what is right and wait for God about it, and if God disposes of them in our favour, we thank Him for it.

• But behind all that there should be the preparedness to suffer.

• Daniel’s companions said that their God was able to deliver them, but even if He did not deliver them they nevertheless could not obey the king. Their minds were made up.

• Sometimes the testimony requires, does it not, that the saints should go through a period of suffering, but in the end God will operate.

• The Authorities, through the very testimony rendered in suffering, will be brought to do what is right.

J.S.E. Does not Daniel’s experience in chapter 6 of his book have its ultimate answer in Nehemiah, to whom the king said,

• “For what dost thou make request?”

• Daniel was prepared to suffer, but Nehemiah finds favour before the king and is given leave to proceed with what is the exercise of his soul.

G.R.C. So that Daniel, on account of cherishing Jerusalem and opening his windows three times a day towards Jerusalem, has to suffer the lion’s den, but then,

• as the result of that the situation is entirely changed and, in Nehemiah’s day, the monarch is favourable,

• and when he mentions the needs of Jerusalem the monarch opens the way for him to go and do what he would desire to do.

A.N.G. Is there a parallel in the case in the Acts where, in the early part, the brethren were forbidden to preach,

• but as under higher authority they continued in it and later Peter was put in prison and had to suffer.

• But in that case there was a direct intervention by God associated with the prayers of the brethren – Acts 12.

G.R.C. Quite so. Earlier Peter and the others had to suffer and rejoiced to be counted worthy to suffer for the name; but then in the later incident as you say,

• God came in and released Peter; he suffered, he was in prison and restful in it, but God came in and released him and dealt with the opposing power.

J.McK. How remarkable is Nebuchadnezzar’s word,

• “Nebuchadnezzar spoke and said, blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed Nego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants who trusted in him, and who changed the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God!” Daniel 3: 28.

• Changing the king’s word is a very fine expression of power on the part of men who were prepared to go into the furnace.

G.R.C. It was a greater testimony than if God had intervened earlier and changed Nebuchadnezzar’s outlook.

• There was a far greater testimony through the brethren suffering and the change coming through their suffering. So that we must be prepared for any eventuality.

• God in mercy raised up a man like Cyrus, who from the outset was favourable to His people, but, on the other hand, there were other Monarchs who had not that viewpoint.

• All was ordered in relation to the testimony at the time. Sometimes the testimony requires that we should suffer.

W.S.S. The testimony has come down to us through the martyrs and is continued in the spirit of martyrdom.

G.R.C. My own impression is that the liberty of conscience now enjoyed in the British Commonwealth can be traced back to the martyrs, especially in the United Kingdom.

• Their sufferings produced a national conscience.

• You may remember when certain brethren some years ago were given notice to terminate their employment in the London area through refusal to join an association – they were employed by local authorities –

• the national conscience was aroused; the people went back in their minds to the martyrs and insisted that England must not allow the revival of religious persecution.

W.S.S. And is it not wholesome to remember that the testimony continues in the spirit of martyrdom.

Ques. Is there a link with Philippians 1: 27 where the apostle says,

• “Only conduct yourselves worthily of the glad tidings of the Christ”

• and then he speaks of demonstration, and then adds it
  • “has been given, as regards Christ, not only the believing on him but the sufferings for him”.

• Should the three sides, the gospel demonstration and then the sufferings be worked out by us?

G.R.C. The sufferings are thus regarded as a privilege, are they not? It is a privilege to suffer if it is going to enhance the testimony.

Ques. Is there any difference between what is political and what is military. I notice in the Acts the military authorities are favourable to Paul but the political authorities are not.

G.R.C. I do not think we have anything to do with politics. God disposes of the Ballot box. He orders as to which persons should be in power at any time.

• He may put the basest of men in power, as is said in Daniel, if it suits His purpose. But it is He Who orders, not the electorate.

• But when the Authorities wield the sword, so the military come into the matter in a particular way, and, generally, the military power protects the saints. We would not be able to meet here in peace apart from it.

A.H.D. It would seem that these powers or authorities move under the direction of the angel do they not – see verse 7.

• “And he said Go, walk to and fro through the earth”.

• In the light of that would it not be incumbent upon us to be in subjection to the Authorities?

G.R.C. If we make requests it is in the spirit of subjection, and if we suffer and are unable to obey it is still in the spirit of subjection. We are always to be subject in our spirits whatever happens.

• These spirits of the heavens go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth. All four empires are mentioned here,
  • and if we look at the use to which the Lord of all the earth has put them we shall see that the red horses, representing Babylon, were used for chastening.

• They carried the people captive, and held them captive for seventy years.

• Then the black horses, that is Persia, went forth into the north country, and, according to verse 8, they quieted God’s spirit in the north country, because they overthrew Babylon.

• Babylon had not only acted as a disciplinary agent, but had excessively oppressed God’s people and the time was ripe, the seventy years were accomplished.

• This therefore links with chapter 1: 11
  • “they answered the angel of Jehovah that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and behold, all the earth sitteth still and is at rest”;

  • and then verse 15. “I am wroth exceedingly with the nations that are at ease; for I was but a little wroth, and they helped forward the affliction”.

• That refers to the time when God was wroth because the whole earth was at ease under Babylonish power and His people were still in captivity and being treated cruelly.

• But this chapter shows that He raised up the Persian power and they went towards the north country, that is Babylon, and they quieted His spirit in the north country because they overthrew Babylon.

• His spirit was quieted because a power which was favourable to His people had now gained the ascendancy.

W.B. Does that connect with Isaiah 14: 7 where the destruction of Babylon leads to the whole earth being at rest and quiet, and they break forth into singing?

G.R.C. Quite so. Then to follow our chapter the white horses go after the black.

• Not much is said here about the white, which represent the Grecian power, which is always hostile and used as a disciplinary agent;
  • but stress is laid on the grizzled and the strong, which refer to two aspects of the Roman power.

• It was under the Roman Empire that Christ was to come, God’s testimony was to go forward and the truth of the assembly was to be developed, and the definite commission given to this power is stated.
  • It says, “the strong go forth and seek to go that they may walk to and fro through the earth. And he said Go, walk to and fro through the earth”.

• The commission to the Roman power was to open up the highways, and this activity has characterised it throughout.

• It opened up the highways for the gospel in the first instance, and the highways, seaways, and finally, airways have been opened up ever since, all with a view to the spread of the truth.

• Men use them for other purposes, but the real reason they have been opened up is for the spread of the truth.

W.S.S. There are no riders on these horses, but there is one Rider in verse 8 of chapter 1 who represents the Lord of all the earth and Who is governing the movements of all these horses?

G.R.C. Exactly. The authorities do not realize the divine purpose that lies behind what they do;

• their own purposes are confused and they hardly know what to do from day to day;

• but behind it all there is divine control and they are carrying out their work according to divine commission.

J.H. The authorities may not know exactly what they are doing, but is not the mind of heaven expressed in that they are under control as coming

• “from between two mountains … of brass”?

G.R.C. Does that not suggest that they are compelled to move according to the fixed principles of God’s government?

S.McC. It is interesting that the great chapter in the New Testament which deals with the powers that be – Romans 13 – opens with the word

• “Let every soul be subject to the authorities that are above”.

• The “him” is added to complete the sentence in English. Does that not bring in the elevated side you are referring to?

G.R.C. That is very interesting, for it goes on to say

• “For there is no authority except from God; and those that exist are set up by God. So that he that sets himself in opposition to the authority resists the ordinance of God; and they who thus resist shall bring sentence of guilt on themselves”.

• It is very solemn.

S.McC. It is. There is really an abstruse allusion to the assembly in the expression

• “Let every soul be subject to the authorities that are above”.

• The assembly would be included in what is ‘above’. It is more than just a physical and material reference, there is a moral and spiritual reference, is there not?

G.R.C. God’s direct government is in the assembly, the government we are speaking of now is indirect and providential, it is only seen by faith,

• and even the eye of faith does not discern the details of it, but we know it is there.

• Faith accepts the fact and prays accordingly and acts accordingly; but as to God’s ways providentially
  • it says, “how unsearchable his judgments and untraceable His ways”.

• But then God’s direct government is in the assembly, so that the eyes in chapter 33
  • “upon one stone are seven eyes”

• stand related to the house; they are in the foundation of the house. Then in chapter 4: 10, these seven eyes
  • “they shall rejoice – even those seven – and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel”.

• The Spirit, as suggested in those seven eyes, rejoices, and all who are spiritual rejoice with Him, in seeing the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel and the building going on according to the truth.

• But then it goes on to say
  • “these are the eyes of Jehovah, which run to and fro in the whole earth”.

• There is a link between government in the house of God, where it is direct, and government in the whole earth.

S.McC. I am sure it is important to see that.

G.R.C. It is divine government in either case, whether direct or indirect.

• Soon the assembly will be the great vessel of direct government under Christ in the whole universe.

• At present the direct government of God is in the assembly but the eyes that direct and control that, are also vigilantly watching all that is proceeding in the way of indirect government, because it says
  • “there is he who restrains”

• referring to the operations of the Spirit. Would you say that is right?

S.McC. That is right.

H.B. Is there something in the fact that those eyes run, verse 10 whereas the horses only walk, as emphasising the vigilance of the Holy Spirit of God?

G.R.C. That is very interesting. It shows the vigilance of the blessed Holy Spirit in this matter.

• “There is he who restrains”,

• and how vigilant He is in watching to see that the Authorities do not get out of hand, if one might use such an expression. The restraint is maintained.

D.A. Would there be any room for fasting as well as prayers? In Esther 4: 16 she asked for fasting before going in into the king?

G.R.C. You are thinking of our actually approaching the Authorities?

D.A. I wondered what the brethren felt. I recall Mr. Taylor Senior saying he believed the saints would yet realise the need of collective fasting, and I wondered if the two would go together, praying and fasting, in order that God may be free to come in, because His power is unlimited?

G.R.C. Are you thinking that if there is collective prayer and fasting, then we could approach the Authorities and make our request?

D.A. The suffering might be on the part of a few, but I wondered if there would be what is open to all?

G.R.C. Quite so. Mr. McC. was referring recently to

• “He purposed in his heart, but also made request”.

S.McC. That is right. He proposed to the steward what should be done, showing how he could enlighten the steward as to how the matter could be worked out.

• But I think it is important that we should bear in mind all this that there must be preparedness to suffer.

• Because we do certain things, God is not bound to come in and give deliverance in the way we think.

• The test came with some of us who lost our jobs. We fasted for three weeks and yet we lost our jobs. Suffering is a great matter, I think.

G.R.C. You can speak of this experimentally in a way that few of us can. It is helpful to hear what you say.

Geo.D. There are those sitting in this building today who have proved it.

G.R.C. Are there not times when the testimony requires that there should be some suffering?

• Is not God considering the requirements of the testimony?

• Generally, no doubt, He would come in and make a way through, He would not willingly allow suffering, but sometimes the testimony requires it.

S.McC. So that at Corinth the Lord appeared to Paul and told him that no one would set on him to hurt him,

• but at Antioch and Iconium he suffered and at Lystra he was drawn out for dead.

• We have to bear in mind both sides of the truth, do we not?

G.R.C. May we be prepared for whatever the exigencies of the testimony demand. The Spirit is with us and capable of supporting us through every situation.

S.McC. After all the One Who is our Master suffered e’en to death, did He not?

Ques. The brethren in Eastern Germany are suffering. Has there been any alleviation there, do you know?

G.R.C. There has been a certain amount of alleviation. The position as to food and clothing is not so straightened as it was.

• The path of separation involves more suffering there than in this country.

• There are also localities where gatherings of more than twelve persons are forbidden, and the brethren thus have to meet in small numbers in private houses.

• I think the Lord would stimulate our prayers and intercession for the brethren in East Germany and in Russia.

• There is evidence that there are still those walking in the truth in Russia, though few in number, and I think we would do well to supplicate God as to the rulers of that Country.

W.H. You would bring the rulers of Russia into your prayers as well as others would you?

G.R.C. Certainly.

W.H. Will there be a difference after the assembly has gone? The ruling powers will be apostate then?

G.R.C. I think there will be a difference, because the dragon gives authority to the best, does he not?

J.McK. The expression “the Lamb’s wife” suggests a share of suffering.

A.C.S.P. Does verse 8 of our chapter show how important it is to consider the Authorities in the light in which God is viewing them.

• Zechariah uses the extraordinary expression,
  • “he cried unto me, and spoke unto me, saying, See these that go forth towards the north country have quieted my spirit”.

• Is it a question of considering how everything affects God? Is that why the urgency of a cry marks it?

G.R.C. God is intensely affected by anything that affects His people, do you not think? He was intensely affected by the oppression of His people in Babylon, and His feelings were expressed, I would say, in that cry.

J.M. Does 1 Peter 2: 13-25 help us? He brings in the authorities and our being subject to them, but then he goes on to speak of suffering and doing good which is acceptable to God.

G.R.C. That is helpful. Peter says

• “Shew honour to all, love the brotherhood, fear God, honour the king”.

• We are always to honour the king, whatever the position may be.

• Daniel and his companions always honoured the king, whatever his attitude to them might be; they could not always obey him, but they honoured him.

W.H. Does not Peter link on these sufferings with judgment beginning from God’s house?

• “Beloved, take not as strange the fire of persecution which has taken place amongst you for your trial, as if some strange thing was happening to you; but as ye have share in the sufferings of Christ, rejoice, that in the revelation of his glory also ye may rejoice with exultation”, 1 Peter 4: 12-13.

• And then he goes on to say,
  • “For the time of having the judgment begin from the house of God is come; but if first from us, what shall be the end of those who obey not the glad tidings of God? And if the righteous is difficultly saved, where shall the impious and the sinner appear?” verse 17.

H.B. Does this principle of suffering for the testimony go right through to Revelation 11, as seen in the two witnesses, how they suffered to death, and what heaven thinks of them? The great voice out of heaven said to them,

• “Come up here”.

G.R.C. Just so. Before we leave the matter of government one would just like to say that Daniel was written before Zechariah, so that this is additional instruction to that in Daniel.

• Zechariah’s view of the authorities should encourage the brethren to make themselves acquainted with the varied views of them in Daniel.

• Nebuchadnezzar’s image has a meaning of its own.

• Following that Daniel first sees them as four wild beasts, the lion, the bear, the leopard and the indescribable beast, the Roman Empire; and then, in the next vision, he sees the Persian and Grecian Empires only viewed as domestic, useful animals.

• I mention this because I believe, in our prayers for kings and those in dignity, we need to have some understanding of the book of Daniel as well as Zechariah.

A.P.C.L. As to Nebuchadnezzar’s image, do you not think in a certain sense, the whole four go on to the end; because, when the stone cut out without hands falls on the feet, it is said that the whole thing is there, the gold, the silver, the brass and the iron.

G.R.C. I think the viewpoint of Nebuchadnezzar’s image is the viewpoint of Romans 13, that the powers that exist are set up by God. As you say,

• the gold does not disappear until the stone comes.

• The principle implied in the gold is that authority is of God, and that there is no authority except from God, and the principle of the authority being derived from God remains until the Lord comes, until the stone strikes the image, because the gold is there then.

• Similarly the principle of silver remains. It first came into evidence in the Persian Empire, but it would be seen in any government that recognises God’s rights over His people.

• God reserves the right to maintain that kind of government insofar as He pleases, throughout the times of the Gentiles.

• Whatever Empire is actually in power He can raise up rulers of “silver” character as we have proved in the British Commonwealth.

• But then there is the Grecian power, the brass, which is always disciplinary, and infidel, and we have experienced that in the past two wars. God has used, as instruments of discipline, infidel men in power.

• Then there are the legs and feet, that is the Roman power, the power that opens the highways, the power for movement.

• We are thankful for the Roman power, because the highways are open; and we are even thankful for the corrupt form of government called democracy, bringing in the mixture of iron and clay, because
  • it is accompanied by liberty of conscience so that the people of God can get through.

• The image, therefore, seems to show that the powers that exist are set up by God and He uses them for His own purposes.

A.P.C.L. I was thinking of the balance of Romans 13 as regards suffering.

• It has been in some minds that, if you have to be subject to the Authorities above you, it means that you have to accept what they say.

• But is not the whole point the spirit in which you take issue with it – the spirit of subjection and suffering.

S.McC. As was said earlier, an intelligent understanding of the governments would help us as to prayer.

• For instance we would not pray for the prosperity of the Russian Government in the sense of its Communistic form, because it is against the assembly and it is against the gospel.

• Therefore we pray intelligently that God will set His face against it.

G.R.C. Quite so. He can depose kings and He can change the hearts of kings. We would pray on that line, would we not?

S.McC. You would pray for the prosperity of the governments that make way for the truth of the gospel and the truth of the assembly.

G.R.C. You would indeed. That is where we need to be intelligent as to how to pray, for kings and all in dignity.

A.N.G. Do you think Hebrews would corroborate what you are saying. It is the book of the opened heavens and of our liberty and access to God. In chapter 13: 8 Paul says,

• “Pray for us” and then in verse 23,

• “Know that our brother Timotheus is set at liberty”.

• Is our liberty and access into the presence of God to be used for the prosperity of Paul’s ministry and the liberation of the personnel to work it out?

G.R.C. That is the line on which we should supplicate God as to the authorities.

• If God is pleased to raise up disciplinary powers we humble ourselves under them,
  • but the line of our supplication would be that God would use the powers to make way for the truth and for Paul’s ministry in particular.

• The sons of oil stand before the Lord of the whole earth; that is, spiritual men have nothing less than the universal position before them, and they know that
  • God, in His overruling government, has the universal position before Him,

• and they pray in relation to the spiritual side of the universal position.

• And that involves that the saints should be set at liberty to pursue the truth and the Lord’s interests unhinderedly.

W.D. Is it not remarkable that Paul himself chose to appeal to Caesar rather than to suffer under a Jewish Tribunal? Would that be the balance of the two sides, the suffering side and yet taking advantage of what God has established.

J.A.F. Would it be appropriate to refer to Isaiah 37: 35,

• “I will defend this city, to save it, for mine own sake, and for my servant David’s sake”.

• Do you think God would see to it that that is preserved which speaks to Him in a practical way of the assembly?

G.R.C. I am certain of that. The Assyrian who had come up to challenge His interests was a disciplinary power, but God would not let them go further than would serve His end;

• and His end at that time was to bring out the glory of Emmanuel – what “God with us” really meant.

J.S.E. What is the bearing of the address as to Smyrna and Pergamos?

• In the address to Smyrna, all the brethren were subjected to suffering, and the Lord gives them a special word to be faithful;

• but when we come to the address to Pergamos, there is one man to whom he refers,
  • “Antipas my faithful witness … who was slain among you”.

• Is it essential that one person at least in a place, should be prepared to take this road to the extreme limit, in order to make way for the rest of the saints?

G.R.C. Very good. The general state in Pergamos was not equal to it, but there was one man who was.

And now we ought to pass on to the latter part of the chapter.

• It illustrates the way God’s governmental dealings are used of Him to enable the saints to acquire spiritual wealth. It says,
  • “Take gifts of them of the captivity, of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, and come thou the same day, and enter into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah, whither they are come from Babylon”.

• In Babylon, the first of the Empires, they had suffered under God’s judicial dealings, but, as accepting the suffering from God in subjection to the authority, they had acquired silver and gold.

• You might say, ‘How could captives acquire silver and gold?’, but that is just what they had done; they had acquired, as we should say, spiritual wealth through submitting to God’s governmental dealings.

W.W.S. Are you suggesting then that, as the result of the captivity, and all that that involves, there is to be this yield which will make for the honouring and the dignifying of what is priestly?

G.R.C. That is what I thought. They come back with silver and gold, which I would link with chapters 3 and 4.

• Chapter 3 would show what a deep sense the returned captives had of the value of redemption, and chapter 4, what a deep valuation they would put upon the work of the Spirit here, the lamp-stand all of gold.

• They had acquired these things in their souls as submitting to God’s judicial dealings with them. And it was all to adorn the priesthood,
  • “make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Jehozakad, the high priest”.

• Again here we have something additional which does not appear in Exodus, showing that, in some respects, post captivity days are the best.

• Not only was the pure turban upon the head of Joshua, but crowns were placed on his head. These were the direct result of getting the gain of the captivity.

E.J.B. Is the end of the dispensation enriched by all the experiences with God in the various circumstances of the whole dispensation?

G.R.C. Being at the end we have a certain advantage, if we are equal to it.

T.T. Did they begin like this, with utensils of silver and utensils of gold, in leaving Egypt?

G.R.C. In leaving the world initially they acquired silver and gold. Now in leaving Babylon, they get silver and gold which is put to this exalted use of adorning and enhancing the priesthood.

A.N.G. Would it have some connection with taking on heavenly ministry? Psalm 110, where the Lord is priest upon His throne is referred to here. But as the priestly company take on spiritual things, do they become like the One in heaven?

G.R.C. It is remarkable that, while the crowns are set upon the head of Joshua, nobody is occupied with Joshua.

• It makes way for occupation with
  • a “man whose name is the Branch”, verse 12.

• The more the saints, in the sight of God, are adorned and enhanced in their priestly functions by what they have acquired in the captivity, the more they will be occupied with, and able to apprehend, the greatness of Christ.

• They will not be occupied with themselves. Joshua was not occupied with his crowns, nor were his friends occupied with the crowns upon Joshua, they were occupied with a Man whose name is the Branch.

W.W.S. Do you mean the more we are set to adorn what is priestly, the more room is made for the bringing in of choice impressions of Christ, as suggested in the Branch?

G.R.C. Yes. Choice impressions, and also making way for Him personally amongst the saints.

J.McK. In Revelation 4 the elders cast their crowns before the throne saying,

• “Thou art worthy”.

G.R.C. So here, the object of every gaze is a Man. It says “Behold”. Our attention is directed to Him.

• “Behold a man whose name is the Branch; and he shall grow up from his own place, and he shall build the temple of Jehovah”.

• You may say, Well, we have been building. According to chapters 3 and 4, Zerubbabel had been building.

• But we are not occupied now with our building. If anything we have done is effective it is because it is His building. We are occupied with the true Builder.
  • “He shall build the temple of Jehovah: even he shall build the temple of Jehovah; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne; and the counsel of peace shall be between them both”

• – emphasising His deity – “them both”, referring to Jehovah and the Man that is His Fellow.

A.H.G. I think earlier on you spoke of the Branch in the great thought of dependence.

G.R.C. That is still here,

• “He shall grow up from his own place”.

• What an appreciation this priestly company has of Christ as the One Who grew up from His own place, perfect in every stage of His manhood.

• But now, no longer in the place where He grew up, but exalted and the Builder, He is on the throne.

• He is bearing the glory and He is sitting and ruling upon His throne; that is, He is the King; and then
  • “He shall be a priest upon His throne”.

• He is the King and the Priest.

Alex. T. Would you regard that as the answer to Isaiah 53: 2

• “He shall grow up before him”, and verse 4.

• “Surely he hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows”.

• Here, as the Branch growing up from His own place, He shall bear the glory?

G.R.C. I think there is a link between this and Isaiah 53,

• “He shall grow up before him as a tender sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground”,

• stressing His dependence upon God. He drew nothing from the ground here.

• He is the true Man, a Man whose name is the Branch, and He grew up from His own place. What an example for us!

• We each must grow up from our own place, and take care of our own place and our responsibilities there.
  • And then, “he shall build the temple of Jehovah”.

• What a great thing it is when He comes before us as the Builder! We are seeking to build, but if anything of real value is built, He has done it.

• He may have used us, but He has done it. He is the Builder. It is repeated,
  • “He shall build the temple of Jehovah; even he shall build the temple of Jehovah” and then

  • “He shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne”.

• How glorious it is to get a view of Christ like this, and, in post captivity days, the days in which we live, to realise His presence amongst us.

J.H. Is there any encouragement in the two references to the Branch in the prophet Jeremiah? In chapter 23: 5 it says

• “Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, when I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, who shall reign as King”, and later,

• “This is his name whereby he shall be called Jehovah our Righteousness”, verse 7;

  and then in chapter 33: 16

• “In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David … and this is the name by which she shall be called”; referring to Jerusalem, “Jehovah our righteousness”.

• Will Jerusalem yet be brought into full correspondence with the Branch, and is the assembly, now, to be brought into correspondence with Christ?

G.R.C. How remarkably the assembly answers to Christ, He is the King of righteousness, and the assembly is the city of righteousness. And He is the King of Salem, the King of peace, and Jerusalem means the place of peace.

S.McC. We have been speaking about Christ being distinguished before our souls, particularly; and the result is that Helem and Tobijah, and Jedaiah become distinguished.

• The crowns, verse 14, are for them for a memorial in the temple of Jehovah, and they that are far off shall come and build at the temple of Jehovah. We get the saints coming in as distinguished, do we not?

G.R.C. We do. Would you link those crowns with the Lord’s word to Philadelphia,

• “Hold fast what thou hast that no man take thy crown”?

• Philadelphia refers to christians as having returned from the captivity and it is a wonderful thing that those who return and who form Philadelphia, should have crowns.
  • The Lord does not say there ‘a crown of righteousness’ or ‘a crown of life’,

• it is “thy crown”, as though the personnel of that assembly have crowns like these men, that are laid up as a memorial in the temple of Jehovah. And we are to hold fast that nobody takes them away.

S.McC. And is it not so that in Philadelphia Christ is particularly enshrined in the affections of His people, particularly distinguished, so that He is able to speak about the things that are so near to His heart?

G.R.C. That is beautiful. If Christ secures this place of entire distinction amongst the saints, it will give us capacity to appreciate all that is so precious to Him.

• “I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem that comes out of heaven from my God, and my new name”.

• It gives us capacity to take in the whole range of divine thoughts, in such a manner that they are written upon us, a marvellous thing.

W.H. Do you get the return of God’s direct government, in contrast to His providential dealings, in the fact that He shall bear the glory and He shall sit and rule upon His throne?

G.R.C. Quite so. That is what we are looking on to, the Lord Himself taking up the direct government in the whole universe, when the times of the Gentiles are finished.

• But then, we anticipate that in the assembly, do we not? He bears the glory now amongst the saints, and amongst the saints He now sits and rules upon His throne, and He is a Priest upon His throne.

• And in that spiritual setting we can take in the most precious thoughts of God.

• And I believe it is important to recognise that only in temple conditions shall we ever be able to take in the scope of God’s thoughts as to the assembly as suggested in the city of my God, the New Jerusalem.

• I believe it is the most complete thought of the assembly. But only in the temple can we get an insight into that.

• The Lord speaks of making the overcomer a pillar in the temple of His God.
  • I do not think any saint who does not value temple conditions will ever get a true impression of the city of Christ’s God.

S.McC. I think that is right.

J.S.E. The adjective ‘new’ is introduced there. There has never been anything like it before.