While the material altar of old was built and finished, in our day we are being enlarged all the time as to the altar.

• The early brethren had before them the Lord's supper and the service of God very prominently, and they had it before them in the light of Paul's ministry, in the light of Christ as Head of the assembly;
  • yet we are continually gaining in intelligence as to it. Present exercises are an evidence of it.

• The exercises as to response to the Holy Spirit would all enter into the desire of the saints for enlargement and increased intelligence relative to the service of God.

Then yesterday evening we considered the building of the house and the way the people prospered in the building through the prophesying of Haggai and Zechariah.

• They had been held up through being occupied with their own houses; but, once they went forward in response to the prophecy, the mountain of difficulty, which outwardly had held them up, became a plain, as the prophet says.

• He addresses the mountain and says, in Zechariah 4: 7,
  • “Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou dost become a plain; and he shall bring forth the headstone with shoutings: Grace, grace unto it!”

• Zerubbabel's hands laid the foundation and they were to finish it, and the plummet in his hand showed that the building was true, and we noticed that
  • the two sons of oil are brought in, representing the kingly and priestly elements amongst the saints in which we should all have part.

• We should all be sons of oil, having faced the exercises of Romans 7 and 8, and of Galatians, and of 1 Corinthians 12, so that we are in the liberty of sonship with God.

It is such persons who can build the house, Zerubbabel being the kingly side and Joshua the priestly –

• these elements combine in the saints if we are in the gain of the Spirit.

• So that the joy of the house is known in a special way in this day, as indicated in the festival-robes, the lamp-stand with its seven lamps functioning.

• And then Joshua crowned – the priesthood beautified – not to attach anything to the priests but to secure the great end in view, the full response to God at the close of the dispensation.

• So we are to be builders of the house. New material is coming in and we have to build bodywise and house-wise all the time.

And now, in this passage, we have the building of the wall, a third phase in the recovery;

• and there is a certain order in these things, because the building of the wall has become a very prominent matter in recent times.

• It is the wall of the city, and what the assembly is city-wise has come more and more into view in the progress of the recovery.

• We have been helped as to the assembly of God in a city, and administration being city-wise in the light of
  • “the holy city, Jerusalem”, Revelation 21: 10, which the assembly is.

And so Nehemiah makes his request to the king to be allowed to rebuild the wall and the gates,

• although, when this is referred to in Daniel 9, it speaks of it as the rebuilding of the city.

• It is Nehemiah's move which dates the beginning of the “Seventy weeks” in Daniel 9, the Messiah's coming being in mind in a special way in this move. So it says in Daniel 9: 25,
  • “Know therefore and understand: From the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah, the Prince, are seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks”.

• That is the word connected with the going up of Nehemiah, his request being granted.

• And so the building of the wall is put in hand, and we need to bear in mind that it is a great building operation. Zechariah 1: 20-21 speaks of
  • the “four craftsmen” who “are come to affright them, to cast out the horns of the nations”, which had scattered the people of God.

• It is four craftsmen who do that, so that the primary thing at the present time is to be builders.

• Whether we think of the altar or the house or the wall, it is a question of building.

Ques. Would the retention of the wall in Revelation 21, relative to the city, show that certain divine attributes come into expression in that way?

• It is not only protective but would serve to bring out divine attributes in a definite way.

G.R.C. I think so; while it is protective of all that is precious within, the wall is really the representation of God in the saints.

• Therefore it is a matter of building, because the saints themselves are the wall; if the wall is seen at all, it is seen in the saints.

Rem. In chapter 4: 18 it says,

• “And the builders had every one his sword girded by his side, and built”.

• They were not using the sword to attack their enemies, they were building all the time, ready for defence, if necessary; but the primary thought was building.

G.R.C. Quite so; building is the great thing. But, in the case of each workman, his sword was girded by his side, because, as this book indicates, the opposition to building the wall is most intense.

• It was greater than the opposition experienced in the book of Ezra.

Ques. Nehemiah calls attention very much to himself, as over against the line in Ezra; is it faithfulness in man as answering to God's thoughts?

G.R.C. I thought so; His name means ‘Comfort of Jehovah’, footnote. We were noticing that Ezra's name means ‘Help’.,p>

• Ezra went up sixty-eight years after Jeshua and Zerubbabel, and Nehemiah thirteen years after Ezra.

• We cannot class ourselves amongst those who have been prominent in bringing out the truth, but nevertheless we can come into the matter on the line of help, like Ezra, and also on the line of comfort.

• We should all seek to be a help and comfort to the saints, and there is nothing more comforting than to have the wall intact. There is no sense of security unless the wall is intact.

Rem. At the end of verse 18 it says,

• “And he that sounded the trumpet was by me”.

• Is it not a serious matter that the trumpet might be sounded and cause alarm, because the people had to gather at the point of danger?

• I was thinking that, in the matter of building, it is very serious to keep on alarming the saints.

G.R.C. You mean that the trumpet should not be sounded unless it is essential?

Rem. That is what I feel; and, therefore, the matter of what is positively going on in building is something that is a matter of comfort, and to be proceeded with by us.

• But the constant blowing of the trumpet is something that disconcerts, unless it is necessary.

G.R.C. The aim of the enemies was to hinder the building. Nothing would better suit their end than that people should be taken away from the work.

Ques. Is there any distinction in your mind in the character of the building relative to the house and relative to the wall?

G.R.C. Yes; as regards the house, the saints are the material and the workmen would be concerned to put the material together bodywise and house-wise.

• Those who minister the word have a special responsibility; but then, we are all to be builders. The work of the ministry is for building purposes, as it says,
  • “with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the edifying”, or building up, “of the body of Christ”.

• It has in view every member of the body becoming active in the building process, so that the body builds itself up in love.

• If we are set together bodywise, we shall be set together house-wise,
  • “built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit”.

• But I think the wall represents the saints as having the Lord's commandments and keeping them, John 14: 15, 21; and would include something built into our souls as to the nature and character of God, so that we react to things as God does. What do you say to that?

Rem. That is very helpful. The bringing in of the character of God is a very important thing.

Rem. So there are two prominent thoughts in building; that is, you build to a standard, but there is a proper way to do it.

G.R.C. And what is that?

Rem. We have here “the tower of Meah” and “the tower of Hananeel”; it seems to link with Luke's gospel; that is the standard that Luke works from, “a hundredfold”, Luke 8: 8; but then the grace that is needed in order to carry it out.

G.R.C. It is interesting how the chapter begins; it begins with the high priest,

• “the high priest rose up with his brethren the priests”.

• So that the first thing presented to us is the need of priestliness in building.
  • “And they built the sheep-gate”;

• the sheep-gate is first; and then, as you say, there is “the tower of Meah” and “the tower of Hananeel”. I believe “Meah” means ‘a hundred’, does it not?

Rem. Yes. I was thinking of Luke's gospel.

G.R.C. Yes, “the ninety and nine”, but there was the “one”, the hundredth. Luke 15: 4-7.

• Then there is “the tower of Hananeel”, which means ‘God is gracious’. That is the first aspect of God's character which is presented to us relative to the wall.

Ques. Would all that flow out of the feelings of Nehemiah, who set this work on, as he went round the wall and saw the distress of Jerusalem? Do we need to feel things in that way if we are to rise up in priestly power?

G.R.C. I am sure we do. He went to “the valley-gate”, and “the jackal-fountain”, and then “the dung-gate”.

• Then he “turned back”, he “entered by the valley-gate and returned”, Nehemiah 2: 13-15.

• It was very distressing to him, because the wall was in ruins and the gates were burned with fire.

• That is another thing to keep in mind, that gates are in mind relative to the wall. They not only built the wall, but also the gates.

Ques. Do you think that the sheep-gate indicates that God is working in the way of recovery? Is the work of God not in mind at first?

G.R.C. So that, in these days of recovery, we specially have in mind God's sheep.

Rem. In regard to the sheep-gate, there are no locks and bars; the sheep represent the work of God and we do not want to exclude any feature of the work of God.

G.R.C. A sheep has right of access. The Lord speaks of His sheep; they go in and out and find pasture. John 10.

Ques. The building of the wall is so much related to the gates. Is that intended to convey the thought of movement in and out, as well as this matter of what is protective? Does it answer suitably to the holy city?

G.R.C. I thought so. You cannot have gates without a wall. Without a wall, the whole thing is laid open to the enemy.

• Without gates, you have no administration; and administration, first and foremost, is the administration of the blessing of God.

• Then there is administration in dealing with what is contrary to God.

• But there is no power for administration unless the wall is built and, as we would desire, completed.

• So that what is in mind is not simply a wall, but gates, so that there is access to the city for all who have a right to enter.

• But then the dung-gate and the prison-gate show there is power to expel, and deal with, all that is unclean and unholy.

Ques. Is there any significance in the fact that the sheep-gate is first mentioned?

G.R.C. “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me”.

• We are on the look-out for those who hear His voice and follow Him.

Ques. Is there any connection with the expression,

• “shepherds and teachers”, in Ephesians?

G.R.C. The shepherd and teacher is one gift. And then the Lord is said to be

• “the shepherd and overseer” of our souls. 1 Peter 2: 25.

• He is “the great shepherd of the sheep”, Hebrews 13: 20.

• He is thinking of the sheep all the time, and our concern is
  • the “one flock” and the “one shepherd”, John 10: 16.

• We would love to have all the sheep of Christ delivered from all associations of men and wholly available to enter the sheep-gate. The gate is there for them.

Rem. You would think that the feature of a sheep of Christ now would be as set out in 2 Timothy 2, he is withdrawing from iniquity.

G.R.C. Yes, because he follows the Lord.

• “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me”.

• The Lord has never been linked with anything of this world.
  • “They are not of the world”, He says, “as I am not of the world”, John 17: 16.

• So that the sheep come to light.

Ques. Is it not comforting to think that, while all these divisions exist, over which we mourn, because other voices have been heard and paid heed to,

• when only one voice is heard at the rapture, then all those who belong to the Lord will be there with Him together for ever?

G.R.C. Every sheep will hear that last

• “assembling shout”, 1 Thessalonians 4: 16.

Ques. Would you say a word about “They hallowed it”? Is it a priestly operation? Only a priest can discern whether a person is fit for fellowship.

G.R.C. That is very good. It says of the sheep-gate,

• “They hallowed it, and set up its doors”.

Rem. In the first two gates it is said that they “built” them, while all the others are “repaired”; would that suggest that these two leading features had been entirely lost?

• Sectarianism has come in, and the gates, along with the wall, are the important matter.

• But then the recognition of the sheep is also an important matter. Wherever they come from, they are Christ's sheep, are they not? And we look for the features of the sheep.

G.R.C. Men have risen up, who have led away disciples after them. The sects may have had their own gates, but they are not the gates of God's city.

Ques. Was Paul fearful of the loss of the sheep-gate when he said to the Ephesian elders,

• “shepherd the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own”, speaking, too, about their having been “set … as overseers” in “the flock”, Acts 20: 28?

G.R.C. Yes. He speaks there of those who would lead away disciples after them; they would lead them away, so that they do not enter the sheep-gate.

Ques. Does the sheep-gate speak specially of the Lord? He says in John 10: 7, 9, “I am the door” hence the need of the word, “They hallowed it”;

• and could that be extended to “the fountain-gate” as figurative of the Holy Spirit, of which it is said, “he … covered it”?

G.R.C. That is a very interesting suggestion. Here it is “Eliashib the high priest” and “his brethren the priests” who built it, and they hallowed it.

• The thought of the Spirit would come into the hallowing, I suppose. And then, as you say, the fountain-gate specially brings the Holy Spirit before us.

Rem. We must have an apprehension of the sheepgate ere we can proceed with the building of the wall.

G.R.C. I would say so, especially in the light of what our brothers say, that it may have special reference to Christ Himself.

• And then there is the tower of Meah, and the tower of Hananeel; these things stand at the outset.

• And then there is the fish-gate. We might have thought of the fish-gate first. The first thing the Lord said to Peter was,
  • “Come after me, and I will make you fishers of men”, Matthew 4: 19.

• But, in His later commission, He says to Peter,
  • “Feed my lambs … Shepherd my sheep … Feed my sheep”, John 21: 15-17.

Rem. In connection with the mention of the sheep-gate in John 5, the Lord's service to the impotent man was to liberate him,

• but he did not move into the liberty that the Lord had in mind;

• but the Lord uses the occasion to bring out the truth that the Father was working hitherto and He was working.

• Is the Divine work today with a view to the complete liberation of souls, that they might move in and out, and into the realm where the will of God is done in the city?

G.R.C. And so the Father was working and the Lord was working, as you say; and later He speaks of the Father and Himself relative to the sheep; none can seize them out of His hand, and none can seize them out of the Father's hand. John 10: 28-29.

Rem. That word in Timothy,

• “The Lord knows those that are his”, 2 Timothy 2: 19,

• would suggest the sheep,
  • “and, Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity”

• is like the use of the gate, is it?

G.R.C. Yes, the true feature of the sheep comes to light, because he hears the Lord's voice and follows Him.

Rem. So that, while the man that has been referred to does not come into the full gain, what immediately precedes chapter 10 is the Lord's work with the man in chapter 9. It seems that the Lord had a basis for bringing forward chapter 10 in that sense.

G.R.C. I think so, the man in chapter 9 was a sample sheep, because the works of God had been manifest in him; and, because true in his testimony, he found himself outside.

• He had no associations of life left, even his relatives disowning him; so he was ready for the flock, “one flock, one shepherd”.

Ques. Is it not so that the truth of the assembly now is only worked out in connection with those who are departing from evil in its various forms in the world?

G.R.C. Quite so. That is the basis of our being together today, is it not?

Rem. So that the idea of the wall involves a line of demarcation, does it not, where things are set out in their distinctiveness according to God as apart from the world?

G.R.C. Quite so. The initial separation, according to 2 Timothy 2, is from positive religious error, evil teaching.

• That is the full thought of “iniquity” there, as I understand it,
  • “Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity”.

• Iniquity has come into Christendom in the way of erroneous teaching, and we are surrounded with it.

• But then, I think the building of the wall is to help us as to separation in every way. We have all separated, one would judge, from religious evil; but then, the separation is to be complete.

• So that we have to apply the principle of withdrawal in respect of everything contrary to the Lord's commandment.

Ques. Is that why “the king's garden” and “the king's house” come to light in this chapter?

• In chapter 2 we have “the king's forest” and “the king's pool”, but we need this priestly setting for the king's garden and the king's house to appear?

G.R.C. We do. There is a kind of progression here, one would judge – the sheep-gate and then the fish-gate.

• The fish-gate has locks and bars, because, the Lord says, the seine cast into the sea gathered both bad and good, Matthew 13: 47-48; so that there has to be discrimination.

• Peter was a fisherman, but he was also a shepherd; his first commission was a fisherman but then later a shepherd.

Rem. In John 21 it is said that it was Simon Peter who

• “drew the net to the land full of great fishes”.

G.R.C. Yes, and my impression is that the “great fishes” of John 21 are those who have withdrawn from iniquity and faced the whole matter of separation.

• The exercises of passing that way bring about persons who are morally great.

Rem. I was thinking of the fact that there were no locks and bars in connection with the sheep-gate.

• Perhaps our outlook might be pretty wide on the line of the sheep-gate, but then, when we come to the fish-gate, there is discrimination.

G.R.C. In one way our outlook would be wide in the sheep-gate, because we would think of all who belong to Christ;

• but then, of course, the gate is only available for those who are marked by the sheep feature of following the Lord.

• But I quite agree with what you say as to the fish-gate, the discrimination.

Ques. Do we get the sheep-gate at the beginning of Acts 2, the wonderful liberty at Pentecost, and, subsequent to that, the fish-gate is in operation with the locks and bars, as in chapters 5 and 8?

G.R.C. In Acts 5 the wall came specifically into evidence, so that “of the rest durst no man join them”.

• Peter expressed God's own reaction to what was present. It was true representation of God, divine anger, as we may say, because of the leaven that had crept in.

• Hypocrisy was there, and deceit, and so there is the disciplinary measure of Peter. But,
  • although “of the rest durst no man join them”,

  • it says “believers were more than ever added to the Lord”.

• Thus the true representation of God resulted in more believers than ever being added to the Lord.

Ques. Did not Mr. Raven say that, if we were supremely concerned about the truth and the principles, God would give us the persons who were linked with those principles?

Rem. And, referring now to the matter of principles, do they enter into the third gate referred to and said to be “repaired”,

• “the gate of the old wall repaired”?

• I was wondering if the repair of the old wall might suggest the application of those principles which have obtained from the beginning.

G.R.C. I thought that. We go back to the beginning,

• “that which was from the beginning”, 1 John 1: 1,

• because we really go back to Christ. We go back to Pentecost, of course; but then, we go back to Christ. We are to walk as He walked.

But then, the scripture we have now read shows the great expansion that occurred when the wall was completed.

• Thus, if current exercises are faced before God, we can rely on expansion, as suggested here, relative to the scope of God's mind and will.

• We have “the seventh month” again and similar language to that in Ezra;
  • “And when the seventh month came, and the children of Israel were in their cities, all the people gathered together as one man”.

• They had done that when the altar was set up. Ezra 3: 1-3. That was at the beginning.

• Now, having completed the wall they gathered together again as one man to the open place that was before the water-gate; and one thing to notice about the company who gathered is that they took the initiative,
  • “they spoke to Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses”,

• and they are men and women, and it says at the end of verse 3,
  • “And the ears of all the people were attentive to the book of the law”.

• So you really have a remarkable state of things here, resulting from what has gone before.

Ques. Is it not most encouraging to be able to recognise the work of God in the body of the saints that readily responds to help and leadership in regard to the truth?

G.R.C. The way the brethren have responded to the call to come out and be separated is very encouraging. In that word the idea of the wall is there,

• “come out … and be separated”, 2 Corinthians 6: 17,

• not simply “come out … and be … separate”, A.V., but “be separated”. We are in a fixed position, we are separated from evil and separated to God.

Ques. What should be our attitude toward our brethren still detained in Babylon?

G.R.C. If we are recovered to the truth, we shall have love for all the saints; our affections will go out to those still in Babylon. We should be on the lookout for any who are prepared for help.

Rem. I think it has been said that we should become more energetic in regard of help,

• “Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity”, 2 Timothy 2: 19.

G.R.C. The sword that we were speaking of this morning was defensive; they built with one hand and held the sword in the other, and we always have to be on the defensive.

• But my impression is that God would help us as to our state and as to coming into the gain of the truth, so that we might be better able to take the initiative in conflict, and become like the spouse with first love for Christ,
  • “terrible as troops with banners”, Song 6: 4,

• going forth for the deliverance of men from the powers of darkness.

Ques. Would verse 10 of the chapter help, too, on a positive line,

• “Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions to them for whom nothing is prepared”?

G.R.C. It is comforting to know that the ministry goes so far afield.

• “The Lord knows those that are his”, 2 Timothy 2: 19,

• and it is a comfort to think that food is reaching them; and we yearn and earnestly pray that, as having food, they might move. Sometimes they do. But we pray for more.

Ques. Would you say a word on the principles that govern this dispensation?

G.R.C. We have to apply Old Testament types in accord with the spirit of the Christian dispensation; otherwise, we may achieve our object ostensibly, and yet lose the spirit of Christianity, and then our loss will be great indeed.

Rem. So the Lord's commandment, that Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians, would always be in accord fully with our day, would it not?

G.R.C. That is right. “Be my imitators, even as I also am of Christ”, 1 Corinthians 11: 1,

• is part of the Lord's commandment in that epistle.

Rem. But Christianity secures the will of God being done, does it not?

G.R.C. Yes, it does; and the law never did.

• “The law perfected nothing”, Hebrews 7: 19,

• whereas Christianity is characteristically a system of perfection.

Ques. I think we are up against difficulties at the present time about grace in that connection and the will of God being done; do you not think that we need to urge one another to act, nevertheless, while in the spirit of grace?

G.R.C. I do; like Paul, who, at each point where he had to speak faithfully, expressed his affection for the saints.

• When it came to the altar, and they were not in accord with the altar as we know, he said,
  • “Wherefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry”, 1 Corinthians 10: 14.

• He, as it were, put his arms round them. And so in other instances; he said what was faithful and true, but, at the same time, expressed his fervent affection.

Rem. As he did with Eutychus. It says, the boy

• “fell … down … But Paul descending fell upon him, and enfolding him in his arms, said, Be not troubled, for his life is in him”, Acts 20: 9-10.

• The brethren said he was dead, but Paul embraced him and he was alive.

G.R.C. And so he says to the Corinthians, “having in readiness to avenge all disobedience”, 2 Corinthians 10: 6;

• because, if people are disobedient to grace, there is nothing more. The call of grace is the final test to man.

• The greatest form of disobedience is to disobey the call of grace; that is far more serious than disobeying the call of law.

• Such disobedience, in its full-blown form, is called insulting the Spirit of grace. Hebrews 10: 29. And so Paul says,
  • “having in readiness to avenge all disobedience when your obedience shall have been fulfilled”.

• That is to say, he would move on with a view to their obedience being fulfilled, in order that only those marked by apostate features – even though not actual apostates – would have to be dealt with.

Ques. And would not that lie behind what you are speaking of as to the aggressive side? If we are not pure ourselves, how can we go out in the testimony to others?

G.R.C. That is just the point; and I am sure we would all desire to have power to be more aggressive in testimony.

Ques. Does Peter do that at the beginning of the Acts? He, first of all, brings in the defensive side in defending the disciples, and then he takes the initiative, does he not?

G.R.C. So he answers the mockers first, then he proclaims the gospel,

• and how effective “the sword of the Spirit”, Ephesians 6: 17, was in the hands of Peter,

• because three thousand were converted and “added in that day”, Acts 2: 41!

Ques. Does Paul take the initiative in the presence of king Agrippa? Acts 25.

G.R.C. Yes; he said he was making his defence, but really he took the initiative. He carried the testimony into the enemy's camp.

Rem. The verse you quote, “having in readiness to avenge all disobedience when your obedience shall have been fulfilled”, is a very good one for us.

G.R.C. I think we need to keep it in mind. Paul puts himself alongside the brethren.

• He says, “let us purify ourselves”, 2 Corinthians 7: 1;

• as though he would put his arms around them and carry them along with him.

• And those who are faced with present exercises should have a sense that the brethren are surrounding them with affection, support, and encouragement, and then, we trust, their obedience will be fulfilled, do you not think?

Rem. I do, indeed; we are all in it, and they need to know that, and we need to realise it, too.

Rem. J.N.D. said that divine principles in the hands of an unspiritual man were like a sword in the hand of a drunkard.

G.R.C. It would mean, I suppose, applying divine principles without love.

• To walk as Christ walked is something law could never have demanded. And yet that is the only standard we can have; there is no other standard. Grace alone can bring us to it and keep us in it.

Ques. So it says, “For the law was given by Moses: grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ”, John 1: 17;

• would it be the thought that that is continued in the assembly, grace and truth first subsisting in Him and then subsisting in the assembly, to be true representatives of God?

G.R.C. And you have noticed, I suppose, the verb there is in the singular, according to the footnote.

• Grace and truth are regarded as inseparable.

• The full truth as to God never was disclosed until grace was manifested. And, on the other hand, the grace of God involves the truth. They are inseparable.

Ques. Would it be right to say that the first thing that the commandment of the Lord requires is obedience?

G.R.C. It is the first thing the gospel requires, too, the obedience of faith.

• Also, according to the last chapter of Romans,
  • “the mystery” is, “according to commandment of the eternal God, made known for obedience of faith”.

• So that both the gospel and the mystery are presented for the obedience of faith; they are not optional.

• The truth of the gospel and the truth of the church are both to be obeyed.

• But it is the obedience of faith; the light of God comes into the soul and you move in the faith of your own soul with God, and it is persons like that who are suitable material for the assembly.

Ques. Will you say something about what is in Jude,

• “And of some have compassion, making a difference, but others save with fear, snatching them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh”, verses 22-23?

G.R.C. We would like to hear your remarks on it.

Rem. I was thinking of what our brother raised: how are we to behave with those not with us? Would you make a difference?

G.R.C. I thought that it is a priestly duty to differentiate. Does not every case stand on its own merits? What do you say?

Rem. I think so; but we have to meet various people, who are connected with these divisions.

• They are not all the same. Some are deeply imbued with the idea, some are only nominally there. Would you make a difference in speaking to them?

G.R.C. I certainly would. I think that is very important. As regards those in erroneous systems, there are those who are leaders in them and steeped in the erroneous principles.

• You would treat them differently from those who have come into it, knowing nothing else.

Rem. The leaders, those that are in the thing, you would not have to do with at all; because they strike at the very thought of Christ and the assembly.

G.R.C. The leaders in these errors, whatever they are, would be more like the men Paul refers to in the epistles to Timothy, would they not, such as

• Hymenaeus and Alexander – 1 Timothy 1: 20 – and Hymenaeus and Philetus – 2 Timothy 2: 17?

• Their wickedness varied in degree, of course. Phygellus and Hermogenes had turned away from Paul, 2 Timothy 1: 15; and that is the state of Christendom generally.

• But then, the next pair, in 2 Timothy 2, were teaching wicked doctrine, and “their word” would “spread as a gangrene” – a most dangerous thing.

• And then Jannes and Jambres are likened to those who “withstand the truth”, 2 Timothy 3: 8;

• and “Alexander the smith did many evil things against” Paul, 2 Timothy 4: 14.

• But I would have thought that leaders who are steeped in any erroneous principle would come under the category of men whom we are to shun. Is that right?

Rem. Yes, I think so.

Rem. There are those, are there, who are astray as to the truth of Christ's Person and those who may need help in that?

G.R.C. Quite so. I think the epistles to Timothy help us as to the kind of persons that we are to turn right away from and have nothing to say to.

• But, if we come back to our chapter now, it is full of encouragement, and we can see features of this in our day,
  • because the saints are set for the completion of the wall,

• and, coupled with it, there is this great desire to hear the word of God, so that they take the initiative. It is a remarkable thing:
  • “They spoke to Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses”,

• and then it says, at the end of verse 3,
  • “the ears of all the people were attentive to the book of the law”.

• And this is “men and women”; sisters are to be intelligent, as well as brothers.

Ques. Would “the open place … before the water-gate”

• allude to the sphere of the Spirit's present activity and service; and the Scriptures are brought in, and the Spirit's service is brought to bear upon them?

G.R.C. Yes; and do not meetings of this character remind us of this kind of thing, people gathering together

• “as one man to the open place that was before the water-gate”?

Ques. What would you say the Spirit's voice to the saints is just now?

G.R.C. I would like to hear what you have to say.

Rem. My impression is that the Spirit of God is emphasising the glory of Christ, His pre-eminence and His claim to have His assembly as He wants it;

and the individual and collective responsibility of the saints to seek to answer to that.

G.R.C. I am sure that is the great objective before the Spirit. He would bring us, in that sense, into accord with Himself.

• “The Spirit and the bride say, Come”, Revelation 22: 17.

• We should be in company with the Spirit as to His present operations.
  • Paul said he had “espoused” the Corinthians “unto one man, to present … a chaste virgin to Christ”, 2 Corinthians 11: 2,

• and we need to be in company with the Spirit, so that we might be thus “chaste” and wholly for Christ; and then we shall be for God, because what is for God in the way of fruit arises from the marital link with Christ.

• Even on the individual line, we are
  • “to be to another … in order that we might bear fruit to God”, Romans 7: 4,

• and on the assembly line it is similar.

Ques. Do you think that line of things would win the affections of the saints for the truth?

G.R.C. Yes, it is really a question of recovery to first love, is it not?

Ques. What are we to gather from the fact that the first meeting after the descent of the Spirit was a preaching of the word of God and the last commission of the Lord to the disciples, ere He went to glory, was an evangelical one?

G.R.C. It would energise us to have things right within, so that we can take the initiative and move forward in public testimony.

Ques. Would the open place before the water-gate be a place to which all can come? Does it suggest the great possibilities in the Spirit?

G.R.C. It is a wonderful setting. To see an analogy to it in our day is most encouraging, the way the brethren delight to get together for extended occasions with nothing before them but to listen to the word of God.

Ques. There is much made in this chapter of understanding; do you think that that is what these meetings are for,

• so that the brethren should be able to move intelligently,

• the sisters becoming intelligent as well as the brothers, so that we all know what we are doing.

• The apostle, remarkably enough, gave even the Corinthians the credit for being intelligent persons and able to judge what he said.

G.R.C. And so it says here,

• “men and women, and all that could hear with understanding”,

• which, no doubt, would include young people who could hear with understanding.

• In chapter 10 verse 28, it speaks of those who
  • “had separated themselves … their wives, their sons and their daughters”.

• There seems to be a peculiar valuation put on wives, and sons, and daughters, in a day of recovery. In chapter 12 verse 43,
  • “the women and the children rejoiced”.

• Why should these things be noted? It shows the importance of the women and the children in a day of recovery. Is that right?

Rem. Yes it is.

Ques. You connected the fountain-gate this morning with the personal energy of the Holy Spirit; in what way is the water-gate different?

G.R.C. I think the water-gate would represent the more extended occasions of ministry, when water flows in abundance, with not only its satisfying effect but its cleansing effect.

Ques. Is it significant that the water-gate was not repaired? The fountain-gate was.

• Would the fountain-gate link with the state of the saints that the Spirit may spring up, but the water-gate with the personality of the Spirit?

• The Spirit has been here through all these two thousand years. No repair is needed in that respect.

G.R.C. That is very interesting, because the fountain-gate, as you say, must reflect on our state, as to whether the fountain is free to spring up;

• but you mean the Spirit has been available for this kind of teaching all along, but the saints have not been ready.

Ques. In 1 Corinthians 2 the apostle refers to the Spirit searching “all things, even the depths of God”.

• Is that what would attract the Corinthians to the idea of the water-gate?

Ques. Would it preserve us from coming to occasions with our minds made up as to matters?

• The open space before the water-gate surely would make way for the Spirit personally, to give us help and light as we are together.

G.R.C. I would say that; surely we should be together in the spirit of inquiry, ready for light,

• and seeking to get the bearing of the whole of Scripture on any point that comes up.

Ques. Is that why the difference is made between

• “Ezra the scribe” being asked “to bring the book of the law”

• and “Ezra the priest” bringing the law before the people?

G.R.C. Very interesting; say more.

Rem. We come together with the scope of the truth in our souls – that would be looked for in one who serves and ministers –

• but in the actual bringing of things forward is it not the priestly side, what the man is, that enters into his ministry?

G.R.C. And how would that bear on what you have already suggested as to the spirit of inquiry?

Rem. Just that Ezra the priest, in bringing the law before the people, would be dependent upon the people who were there.

• So that there is a free flow for what is priestly, in the bringing forward of the truth amongst the saints, expanded, and added to, by what each one is.

G.R.C. So that Ezra himself would get help.

Rem. That is what I was thinking. It is not a question of one person to answer all the questions.

Rem. So that others are brought in; in verse 8 it says,

• “And they read in the law of God distinctly out of the book, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading”.

• Would that be the setting out of the truth in a clarified manner, so that the brethren are carried fully by it, they have a clear understanding of what is conveyed?

G.R.C. Yes, and there were quite a number engaged in that work.

Rem. It names certain ones in verse 7, indicating how the matter extends, and that the service is carried on in this manner, whereby the truth is conveyed in an intelligent way and answered to.

G.R.C. We are glad to have as many such persons available as we can; they help us giving the sense.

Rem. In the previous chapter there is a reference to “priests' coats”, Nehemiah 7: 70, 72,

• a similar reference, but a lesser number, being found in the early chapters of Ezra. Ezra 2: 69.

G.R.C. It is remarkable how the priestly side of things is stressed in the recovery, in these two books.

• It is a question of God receiving what is due to His Name at the close of the dispensation.

Ques. Would it not raise an exercise with each one of us to see that it is not only a matter of being positionally right – these people were positionally right –

• but that there might be wrought in each one of us that which is in correspondence with the position?

G.R.C. And the people here were ready for that.

Rem. What a delight it must be to heaven to see so many together this afternoon with that in their heart!

Ques. Does understanding imply a readiness to answer in responsibility and privilege?

G.R.C. Yes, and, as things worked out, we find that they were, in fact, ready.

Ques. Does it help to observe that, in Mr. Darby's day, much was written, but, since that day,

• the accessions of light that have reached the assembly have come out through meetings such as these, in inquiry in the temple?

G.R.C. Quite so. And this in no wise sets aside the idea of gift, as in Ephesians 4: 7-16.

Rem. It says that “the ears of all the people were attentive”.

• We were speaking the other day about the eyes, but I thought great gain came by hearing; as it says, in the Revelation, “He that has an ear”; and is not that the way we make progress in the truth?

G.R.C. I think so; the obedience of faith would be connected with what we hear, and the Spirit graciously gives us vision.

• He reveals things. So that we get a conception of things, a conception of the assembly. Well, who gave us that conception? The Spirit of God.

• We could not get it merely from reading Scripture.

• So that hearing and seeing enter into things, the Spirit giving us vision; but then, the ear is the first approach, as in the gospel; God appeals to man's ear.

• The enemy appealed to the ear at the beginning.

Ques. Would the hearing set the conception that we have received into our souls, in order in our minds, so that we should be intelligent?

G.R.C. I think so. Did not F.E.R. say that he went to Scripture to see what he had got? The Spirit had shown him things and he went to Scripture to get the things in order.

• Not that we do not get things in going to Scripture, the Spirit may show us things as we read Scripture.

• But however the conception comes, let us go to Scripture and get the bearing of it in the whole of Scripture.

Rem. It seems that the ordered administration of the truth is a very vital thing for our days. I wondered if this particularly stressed the thought of the administration of the truth in an ordered way.

Ques. Is it noticeable that “on the second day” there seems something different?

• “The chief fathers of all the people, the priests, and the Levites” came “to Ezra the scribe”.

• I suppose they would recognise that he was a man who had something from God and his speaking should be listened to.
  • But “they found written in the law which Jehovah had commanded”

• this wonderful truth of the feast of tabernacles.

G.R.C. They recognised the ability he had from God, so they came to him

• “to gain wisdom as to the words of the law”.

Rem. But then it says that “they found”; it does not say he told them.

G.R.C. What do you make of that?

Rem. It was what they found in inquiry in the presence of Ezra; it was not just that he said to them that this was so;

• but I thought it emphasised what had been said before that, as together, we find things.

Ques. And does not that, perhaps, link on with the idea of “the open place” in our hearts? There is the expectancy of enlargement and we are not cramped.

G.R.C. No; so that we are ready for what may come.

Rem. Quite so. One thinks of the Lord sending a few men into

• “a large upper room furnished”, Mark 14: 15, Luke 22: 12;

• there were few there but they would have had a sense of the possibility of enlargement.

G.R.C. And so there was, because there were “about a hundred and twenty” in the upper room later. Acts 1: 15.

Rem. In connection with this second day, it does not say that the women were there, but only those that were able to understand.

Rem. We used to have meetings at which the women were not allowed to be present, three days meetings.

G.R.C. And we based it on this passage, did we not?

Rem. Yes.

Rem. We find it in Mr. Taylor's meetings, [old series] Volume 201, pages 125-131 inclusive.

G.R.C. What do you think as to present developments?

Rem. We have the sisters now and we are glad to have them. I think the meetings are more helpful now than when the sisters were left out. What is in the woman finds expression in the home and the assembly.

Rem. In verse 9, “all the people wept when they heard the words of the law”;

• then there was this note of comfort for them,
  • “And the Levites quieted all the people, saying, Be still!”

• Perhaps, in these circumstances, inquiry was raised with the chief fathers as to how that might be met. Do you think, in that sense, it was special?

G.R.C. And I would think we must not ignore these elements, chief fathers, and priests, and Levites,

• although, when you come to Acts, they seem to act in the presence of the whole assembly. They did not seem to be segregated.

Ques. Would “the second day” be the second day of the feast? And would it connect with the “males” appearing before Jehovah according to Deuteronomy 16: 16?

G.R.C. How would you apply that to us?

Rem. I thought, perhaps, of what was masculine, brothers and sisters being merged in it.

G.R.C. What is “male” in the Old Testament refers to spiritual energy, does it not?

• That means that, in our day, sisters are not excluded. I take it, a male among the priests is a functioning priest, with priestly sensibilities alert.

Ques. Would we not include sisters among the priests and Levites today?

G.R.C. We would. Then there is also the idea of responsibility here. In arranging a meeting like this there are those who have taken responsibility for it.

Rem. So that you have a wonderful accumulation of joy under these conditions.

G.R.C. It goes back to Joshua the son of Nun; not that there had not been wonderful feasts of tabernacles meantime,

• because, when Solomon brought up the ark, in 2 Chronicles 5, it was at the feast of tabernacles.

• But what they had not done was to dwell in booths. I take it, that is the feature here. They had returned to the idea of dwelling in booths.

Rem. And from that they proceed to “the eighth day”.

G.R.C. Yes. They went back to God's original thought and dwelt in booths, and do you think that would connect specially with the eternal day?

Rem. Yes, Leviticus 23: 39, “on the first day there shall be rest, and on the eighth day there shall be rest”.

G.R.C. The eighth day was the last, the great day of the feast, and it speaks of eternity.

Rem. True assembly conditions would be reached in the feast of tabernacles; the rich men would leave their mansions, the poor people would leave their hovels, and they would all dwell on a common level in booths.

G.R.C. Yes, a heavenly level. Gatherings such as this are somewhat like that, are they not? Everything is subservient to what is spiritual. Would you say that?

Rem. That is what I was thinking.

Ques. Is not God at the present time in these meetings, conditioning us for dwelling together eternally?

G.R.C. I think so, and I think that is what our brother had in mind in reaching the eighth day; we shall be in wholly spiritual conditions.

Rem. I wonder whether Mr. Darby may have received some of his impressions under such conditions; such impressions as, ‘Where the saints in glory thronging’.

• The element of thronging, under such conditions, would bring in what is substantially heavenly.

Rem. In verses 16 and 17 you get the idea of all the people being in this matter,

• “And the people went forth … And all the congregation”.

G.R.C. All the people, and it is “the open space of the gate of Ephraim”.

• What fruitfulness for God in conditions like this! Think of the “olive-branches, and wild olive-branches, and myrtle-branches”.

• In the beginning of Zechariah the man on the red horse is “among the myrtle-trees … in the low valley”.

• It suggests the Lord among His own in these days, controlling all government on the one hand, the other “horses” being behind Him, and yet known amongst His own – the One to whom all power in heaven and on earth is given.

• He is among His people, if we are in the gain of being “myrtle-trees … in the low valley”. Here it speaks of “myrtle-branches, and palm-branches”.

Ques. Would the fact that they are referred to as “branches” suggest features that would serve to bring about binding conditions, whereby brethren could dwell together?

G.R.C. I would think so. Think of olive-branches, which might refer typically to believing Jews,

• and wild olive-branches to Gentiles brought into the truth,

• and myrtle-branches – myrtle was a fragrant plant – and palm-branches.

• It is very beautiful to live in conditions like that, spiritual conditions.

Rem. In the feast of tabernacles is God everything to the saints? They are outside of every other circumstance and God is before them.

G.R.C. And that is what we come to in the service of God, when things are right.

• We come to the point where we are not even occupied with our blessings, we are wholly absorbed with the Blesser and His blessedness.

Ques. Would the fact that John speaks so much of dwelling suggest that these conditions are to be brought about in the days of recovery?

• I was thinking of John's ministry bearing on this and something being reached in days of recovery that was not reached, even at the beginning.

G.R.C. I think that. The more you think of it, the more you realise what wonderful days we are living in.

Ques. Does the making of these booths start on the roof of your house? The start of the booths is on the roof of their houses.

G.R.C. Yes, “everyone upon the roof of his house, and in their courts”. Peter went on the roof. Acts 10: 9.

Rem. It is no use to seek to enter into eternal conditions as coming together, if these things have not been made, and are on the roof of your house in that sense.

Rem. “Go forth to the mount”, suggesting exercise to get the branches.

G.R.C. Quite so.

Ques. Is it seen in the last four verses of the last chapter of 2 Corinthians?

“Salute one another with a holy kiss”.

G.R.C. That would be the level of this, surely. We ourselves are the branches; it is a question of going forth to the mount in order to be what we are according to God.

• Exercise is involved, so that we come as “olive-branches, and wild olive-branches, and myrtle-branches, and palm-branches”, and so on.

But now – going on to chapter 9 – I think you were saying the other day that it is “on the twenty-fourth day”, the day after the feast was over, that you get this remarkable confession.

• It is in the light of having reached the top-note of things that we can rightly estimate the whole history of the testimony.

• We can rightly confess our sins and the sins of the people, feeling them with God, and yet the strain that runs through this confession is the faithfulness of God.
  • The emphasis is on the faithfulness of this wondrous God.

• Therefore they begin by blessing Him
  • “from eternity to eternity. And let men bless the name of thy glory, which is exalted above all blessing and praise”.

There are some very sweet touches in this confession: for instance, in verse 19, after they had made the molten calf, it says,

• “yet thou in thy manifold mercies forsookest them not in the wilderness. The pillar of the cloud departed not from over them by day, to lead them on the way; neither the pillar of fire by night, to shew them light, and the way wherein they should go. Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, and withheldest not thy manna from their mouths, and gavest them water for their thirst. Yea, forty years didst thou sustain them in the wilderness; they lacked nothing”.

• And this in spite of the idolatry! The faithfulness of God runs through, until verse 31,
  • “Nevertheless for thy manifold mercies' sake, thou didst not make a full end of them nor forsake them; for thou art a gracious and merciful God”.

• That word is “El”, “a gracious and merciful El”, a title used when God's character is in question.

Ques. Is the fact of the continuing and abiding presence of the Spirit with us one evidence of the infinite faithfulness of God?

• There are many other features of God's faithfulness, but I was thinking of that particularly and its bearing upon our concern that He should receive His portion.

G.R.C. Yes, especially when you think of the way we grieve the Spirit individually as well as collectively. It is a wonderful thing that, though grieved, He never leaves us.

Ques. Is there, in a certain way, a basis morally for God's faithfulness remaining in verses 7 and 8? He says,

• “who didst choose Abram and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham; and foundest his heart faithful before thee”.

• God's faithfulness remains towards His own because He has a basis for it in what is responsive to Himself.

G.R.C. Quite so, and specially the basis that He has in Christ.

Rem. I was thinking that; He looks upon us in that One.

Ques. Does “the seed of Israel”, verse 2, bear upon that? Does the realisation that they are the princely race give rise to this wonderful movement of separation and confession and worship?

G.R.C. Yes, and what is noticeable is that it is after the wall was built. After the building they

• “separated themselves from all foreigners”.

Ques. The reference our brother has quoted speaks of the change of name. It says in verse 7,

• “who didst choose Abram and broughtest him forth … and gavest him the name of Abraham”.

• That took place at the time when God said to him,
  • “walk before my face, and be perfect”, Genesis 17: 1.

• And the name “Abraham” means ‘Father of a multitude’. Genesis 17: 5, footnote.

• Does that link with your thought, the claims of the truth upon us as walking before God, but the enlargement that comes, ‘Father of a multitude’?

G.R.C. Yes. He had to learn in that very covenant, typically, that he could only walk before God in the power of the Spirit.

• The covenant of circumcision means that God has committed Himself to us in the Spirit and that we are to commit ourselves to Him on the same basis, that we have nothing to say to the flesh.

We ought to say a word on the covenant at the end of this chapter.

• The time of privilege leading up to the eighth day, and then the confession and the going over God's ways of faithfulness, leads them to
  • “make a sure covenant, and write it”.

• And all the people came into it in verse 28 of chapter 10,
  • the people and “their wives, their sons and their daughters”.

• This is a wonderful thing, whole families were committed to this covenant, and the scope of it was great:

1. first of all, to be separate, in verse 30,

2. and then to keep “the sabbath”, a very important matter, in verse 31,

3. and to give up “exaction”.

4. And then in verse 32, they made “ordinances” or ‘commandments’, footnote, for themselves, things taken on by themselves, something that, as far as I know, was never commanded,
   • “to charge ourselves yearly with the third part of a shekel for the service of the house of our God”.

And they have the whole service in their minds.

Ques. Do you think this is how fulness comes into the local gathering?

G.R.C. I do; when you get the brothers and their wives and their sons and their daughters all committed to something like this, you are going to have good times, are you not, and God is going to have His due from His people?

Rem. So the old and the young “flow together” towards the house of God, Jeremiah 31: 12.

G.R.C. Very good. And another thing that is referred to here is “the wood-offering”.

• There is the special “third part of a shekel” and “the wood-offering”.

• But, if we read over the passage, they had in mind maintaining all that was due to God in His house, the whole service.

Ques. In what way would you divide the shekel into a third part, if it be “twenty gerahs”, Exodus 30: 13?

G.R.C. What would you say?

Rem. I would say that love alone could solve it. But it seems to be sufficient to carry out the whole service of God.

G.R.C. Do you mean that, in every shekel given, three would have to be moving together?

Rem. That is what I thought: stressing the feature of mutuality.

Ques. Is the wood-offering the sacrificial spirit that might underlie everything?

G.R.C. I thought that; it is that which keeps the fire burning on the altar; it was never to go out.

Rem. And that spirit, active in our localities, would enrich what is for God in our comings together.

G.R.C. I think so; it suggests the way we show the spirit of Christ in serving one another in love, in such a manner that the saints' hearts are kept on fire; and, if the saints' hearts are kept on fire, God will not cease to get His portion.

Rem. And especially so, when they are found together, as it says, “we will not forsake the house of our God”.