It is one thing to see that, as justified, the way into life for us is clear, but it is another matter to enter into and enjoy eternal life.

• That necessitates purification, so that John in his gospel speaks of purification, and purification is spoken of in Hebrews, where it is a question of drawing near to God.

• The way is open for us to draw near to God, but nothing impure can come into His presence. So that even as to sins in Hebrews, it speaks of the Lord Jesus as “having made by himself the purification of sins”, Hebrews 1: 3.

• We need justification, but God’s nature requires purification. The work of Christ upon the cross has provided for both. It is the basis of our justification and of our purification.

• So that John’s gospel has in mind that we should come into the enjoyment of eternal life, just as his first epistle has.
  • And, of course, if we are not in the gain of eternal life, the other great thoughts of God cannot be worked out.

We saw yesterday how the Lord deals with what is in the sphere of profession; commercialism and clericalism have been exposed. And, in the ministry God has given,

• they have been swept aside in the minds of the saints – and we need to beware lest we let them come in again –

• but all with a view to God’s great thoughts being worked out, such as the family and the truth of the body.

• We have been restored to these things, the truth of the family, the truth of the body, and therefore the truth of the temple, because where there are body conditions the Spirit is free, and we have the truth of the temple.

• But underlying all those matters is the enjoyment of life. Life is enjoyed in the family, and the working of life is in the body, and in the temple we prove that God is dwelling among us.

• You can understand therefore, how purification is needed, not only from the practices which the ministry has exposed, but also inwardly, and this chapter is basic to that.

The Lord is dealing with a teacher in Israel. We may say this is most elementary truth, being born anew, and yet

• it seems perfectly certain that many who have taken the place of teachers amongst us – I mean right from the beginning of the revival – and yet have gone astray themselves, have never understood this.

• They have never understood the implications of the word, “It is needful that ye should be born anew”.

• This chapter is intended to sort the matter out for us, so that we do not carry along with us, in a practical way, that which is born of the flesh.

J.Hr. Has the Lord got in mind Ezekiel 36: 26, when he speaks of a new heart, and a new spirit within you?

G.R.C. “Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things?” Ought not Nicodemus to have known that chapter?

J.Hr. Yes. I was thinking of the inward matter, the entirely new beginning, a new heart, and a new spirit within you. “And I will put my Spirit within you”, Ezekiel 36: 27.

P.L. And “I will increase them with men like a flock. As the flock of Jerusalem in her set feasts, so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am Jehovah” in verse 38.

• It is the person born anew, not just something in them, is it? Would that finally, as seen in John, give us to increase flock-wise, which is really, according to John 10, in eternal life?

G.R.C. That is very helpful. God hates mixtures, and as you say, the man himself is born anew; but then we have in us that which is born of the flesh, but we are to see that we do not go along with a mixture in ourselves.

• There is to be maintained a thorough self-judgment, we are to be preserved in dust and ashes as to all that we are after the flesh, so that we go on with what we are as born anew;
  • and, as chapter 4 would show, doing so in the power of the Spirit springing up within us.

• But what you say is very beautiful, because this is how the sheep are brought to pass, is it not?

P.L. That is the flock of Jerusalem in her set feasts. Would that bear on the great matter of holiness?

• We have righteousness in our justification, but holiness relating to our purification; and without holiness no one shall see the Lord, Hebrews 12: 14 – the service of God being ultimately in mind in all that is before us.

G.R.C. That is just what is in mind. So that the sheep are brought to pass by the sovereign operation of the Spirit, “My sheep hear my voice”, but how are they brought to pass?

• “The wind blows where it will, and thou hearest its voice, but knowest not whence it comes and where it goes: thus is every one that is born of the Spirit”.

• There are to be no mixtures, we are to learn to sort things out within, just as there are to be no mixtures without.

• We are to purify ourselves both in this inward sense, and also in the outward; perfecting holiness in both connections.

• And, as you say, it has in view the set feasts of Jehovah. The feasts are referred to in this gospel. They were just feasts of the Jews,
  • but what is in mind in the gospel is the great feast of Jehovah, and in particular, the last, the great day of the feast; that we should arrive at finality as to God’s thoughts and purposes and be before Him in full liberty relative to them, for His praise.

E.J.H. And the sheep in John 10 have no element of imperfection in them, everything that is said about them is in accord with new birth.

G.R.C. Showing that the Spirit of God does not look upon us from the standpoint of mixture. We are identified, in the Divine mind, with the work of the Spirit in us. It is the man himself who is born anew.

M.H.T. Is it of interest to see that the word “anew” is the same word that is applied to the Lord’s body-coat later on, that was without seam, woven from the top; suggesting, ‘‘as he is, we also are in this world”, 1 John 4: 17.

G.R.C. I remember J.T. speaking of new birth as from the top. And the same word is used at the end of the chapter, “He who comes from above” verse 31; it is the same word as “anew”.

M.H.T. I understand that the derivation of the word implies tracing a river to its source and is found elsewhere; in Luke 1: 3 we have “from the origin”, and the veil of the temple was said to be rent in two “from the top to the bottom”, Matthew 27: 51.

G.R.C. It shows that this operation is outside of the scope of man; it is from above in that sense, it has not its origin in anything that man could do; it is a sovereign divine operation.

P.H.H. Is the Lord therefore speaking to Nicodemus in order to get him on to this spiritual line? That is, would the rulers and teachers in this setting think that everything was governed by them,

• whereas the Lord is setting out that there must be ‘a new source of life and point of departure’? That is, in divine operations by the Spirit.

G.R.C. So that it is a great thing to trace things to the source, and the source here is the Spirit, it is God; God is the source, and it is God operating Spiritwise.

F.E.S. Are we helped in chapter 1 of this gospel as to those who were born of God? Do we get the right beginning and source there, not of man’s will, but born of God?

G.R.C. I think the thought of “born of God” gives the full idea. This gives detail as to the operations, “born anew”, “born of water and of the Spirit”, and then the character of what is wrought, “that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”.

• But it all sums up in that great thought of being born of God, which can hardly be predicated of anyone until they receive the testimony of God.

• The Spirit operates before we receive the testimony of God. Born anew – that operation may occur in some cases some time before conversion;

• but the soul, as the result of these operations, then receives, and therefore is formed by, the testimony of God in Christ, and can then be said to be born of God.

L.A.C. Is it important to notice that the water is mentioned before the Spirit in Ezekiel 36, and the clean water which is used for sprinkling Israel comes before the wind, or the Spirit, in chapter 37?

• “I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your uncleannesses and from all your idols will I cleanse you”, Ezekiel 36: 25.

• Then verse 26 goes on “And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you”.

• In chapter 37 the matter of the wind, or Spirit, is introduced as following the mention of the clean water. I wondered if they were connected.

G.R.C. “I will sprinkle clean water upon you” may bear upon the thought of being born of water and of the Spirit, as the Lord goes on to enlarge on the subject. “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born of water and of Spirit”,

• so that there is the clean water, and how thankful we should be for the water that flowed out of the side of Christ, and that we are born relative to that. It enters into our very birth, the very beginning of things with us.

And we get the idea of the sprinkling of the water of purification upon the Levites; apart from any question of whether they had touched anything dead, the water was sprinkled upon them,

• “And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: sprinkle upon them water of purification from sin”, Numbers 8: 7.

• Then there is what they do, “they shall pass the razor over all their flesh, and shall wash their garments, and make themselves clean”.

• There is what is done for us, and in us; but there is our taking the matter up – what they did, they passed the razor over all their flesh, and they washed their garments to make themselves clean. John 3 would be more initial, for it refers to birth.

What you say as to Ezekiel 36 bears on new birth, as applying to Israel; but I think the breath, and the bones coming together in chapter 37 refer to what is collective.

• It is a question here in John 3 of what is personal and we each need to take it to heart. The Lord is dealing with one man, a teacher in Israel, who did not even know this;
  • and there are many teachers in Christendom who do not know this, there may be those amongst us who do not know this; they may know the terms of it, but not the meaning of it.

• But then, what is corporate is in view; the bones coming together, and so on, refers more to body formation. Is that right?

A.J.G. Yes, I thought so. The early part of this gospel is dealing with the individual in view of what is collective and corporate in the latter part, is it not?

G.R.C. That is just what I thought. And finally the Lord does breathe into them.

A.B. Would the question of being born of water and the Spirit refer to what is constitutional?

G.R.C. I think that is what is implied. Our very birth is on this principle; we are born of water, and of Spirit.

E.I. When F.E.R. brought forward the truth as to eternal life, and it was being opposed and refused, he fell back upon the truth of the kingdom, and the moral side that has to be faced.

G.R.C. I am glad you refer to F.E.R., because what happened at that time gives point to what is before us.

• Those who opposed the truth of eternal life were, I understand, continually preaching and pressing the idea of people being born again. It was one of their great themes.

• But, if they had known the truth involved in being born anew, they would never have gone out of fellowship, they would never have opposed F.E.R.

• Those who talk most loudly about being born again, at this present time, are those who know least about it.

P.H.H. It is confused with conversion in a good many cases.

G.R.C. It is. In fact, the men who opposed F.E.R. seemed to be in complete confusion about the great truths of Christianity;

• reconciliation, justification, new birth, and other things, all meant the same thing to them.

• But we are intended to distinguish between each feature of the truth – each feature is distinctive.

• And the seriousness of not understanding the truth is very great; for it lies at the foundation of personal purification, and therefore of liberty and serviceability, as suited to the God dwelling amongst us.

• If we are not clear about this, we shall carry something of that which is born of the flesh into the meetings, and even let it intrude into the service of God.

P.B. As having been born after the flesh, have we not partaken of a contaminated source?

G.R.C. We have. It is a great and a sweeping thing to recognise that all that we have derived, as after the flesh, is polluted, and that purification involves the setting aside of the whole man, as we speak; that is the setting aside of all that is born of the flesh, in each one of us.

A.W.G.T. Has not that been spoken of as the collapse of the man? You have spoken most solemnly about those who have turned aside after having ministered, and was not that the lack – the collapse of the man was not appreciated in relation to new birth?

G.R.C. One desires that there might be something of this collapse this morning. I feel the need of it myself.

A.J.G. Is it not significant that this chapter 3 brings in the serpent being lifted up? Was not that a great lesson that Israel had to learn, and that we have to learn, that what characterises the flesh has been derived from the serpent, it is the poison of the serpent?

G.R.C. That is very interesting, because it links with the idea of source. We have spoken of source in connection with “Except any one be born anew”; we have got to trace this operation to its source; it comes from God by the Spirit.

• There is nothing pure about man in the flesh; if there is to be anything for God, it must come from God. Sin in the flesh comes from another source, and that is the serpent.

A.J.G. It is either the serpent or God; and when Paul was sent to preach, he had to preach that the people might turn from the power of Satan to God; there was nothing between the two. It was either one thing or the other.

G.R.C. I am very glad you have brought that in, because we have to take account of the fact that new birth and the brazen serpent are put in juxtaposition in this chapter.

• One is the moral counterpart of the other; and that is why so few people who talk about new birth know the meaning of it. They have not reached the brazen serpent.

• No one understands why they had to be born anew until, in their experience, they reach the brazen serpent. They may talk about it, and may be sure they are born anew – thank God for that;

• but no one arrives at the fact that he had to be, that it was absolutely essential that he should be born anew, until he arrives at the brazen serpent. Perhaps not many of us have arrived there.

–.P. You were speaking of using the terms and not understanding the meaning. Is that why John uses the expressions “which is interpreted”, and “which means”, the interpretation suggesting the help of the Holy Spirit in understanding?

G.R.C. I do not think any soul understands the real meaning of new birth until they have arrived at the brazen serpent. And I think we ought to take that to heart.

• We can talk very glibly about new birth, but have we arrived at the brazen serpent? Because if we have not arrived there, we have not understood the implications of new birth.

W.B.H. Does David arrive at this thought in Psalm 51, when he says in verses 5 and 6

• “Behold, in iniquity was I brought forth, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou wilt have truth in the inward parts; and in the hidden part thou wilt make me to know wisdom”, and in verse 10

• “Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me”?

G.R.C. Yes. It bears on the point that we have to be born again. The Lord says in verse 7, “Do not wonder that I said to thee, It is needful that ye should be born again”.

• And there is a link between that verse and v. 14, “as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of man be lifted up”.

• In the Authorised Version, ‘must’ is used in both verses, “ye must be born again”, “the Son of man must be lifted up”. The word is exactly the same in the Greek. So that they are equally forceful expressions.

E.A.K. Is it apposite that Elisha, at the outset of his ministry casts the salt in at the source, that there might be no more death and barren ground? It was an initial matter with him, in the ministry of grace.

A.T.B. “He who comes from above is above all. He who has his origin in the earth is of the earth, and speaks as of the earth. He who comes out of heaven is above all”, verse 31. There is a distinct new source, altogether from Him.

G.R.C. The truth is that man cannot rise above himself, he is the source of his own thoughts, and he is a creature under the power of sin and Satan.

• And if you think of that, that he cannot rise above himself, and yet is under the power of the serpent, where can he get to? Only to perdition! We are dependent upon a source outside of ourselves.

L.A.C. Why is sight introduced here, “cannot see the kingdom of God”; and the serpent as lifted up had to be looked upon? Would there be a link with Ecclesiastes 11: 5?

• “As thou knowest not what is the way of the Spirit, (or the wind) how the bones grow in the womb of her that is with child, even so thou knowest not the work of God who maketh all”.

• And verse 7 says “Now the light is sweet, and pleasant is it to the eyes to see the sun”.

G.R.C. That touches on what we have here as to the wind. The wind blows where it will, but it is all with a view to man having his eyes opened to see the light.

• Apart from that operation of the Spirit none of us would ever have capacity to see the light. And I doubt if we see the light properly until we have looked intently at the brazen serpent.

L.L. Will you please say a little as to the meaning of that remarkable statement, the brazen serpent?

G.R.C. It is quite evident that if those who opposed F.E.R. had looked intently at the brazen serpent they would never have gone astray, and they would have understood eternal life in the way he was putting it out.

• They were marked by the refusal to accept God’s complete condemnation of sin in the flesh, when Jesus was made sin; it is necessary to accept that, as bearing on myself;

• it is not just something that bears generally, but looking at the brazen serpent means that I accept it as bearing on myself, in the determining of matters in myself; and that is a crucial matter.

A.J.G. So that anyone who was bitten by a serpent at that time was conscious that the poison of the serpent was working in him, and his only relief was to look intently at the brazen serpent.

G.R.C. Quite so. The poison of the serpent is working in us, and we may not realise it.

• These persons in the end of chapter 2, who “believed on his name, beholding his signs which he wrought” were such that the Lord did not commit Himself to them, because they had not arrived at this lesson.

• If a man calls himself a believer you cannot trust him unless he has arrived at this. Has the man collapsed? Has the man arrived in his soul at the truth of the brazen serpent?

• If so, he will have arrived at the fact that he had to be born again, because nothing in him after the flesh is worth anything at all.

F.E.S. Why is it a brazen serpent here? I was wondering whether there is a certain deliverance in seeing that the brazen serpent really refers to Christ in the position He has taken. It is not an actual serpent, but it is something as seen; a great matter of deliverance that Christ has actually been into death for us.

G.R.C. You mean it refers to Christ taking a vicarious position. How we need to ponder it, that

• “Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us”, 2 Corinthians 5: 21;

• that He was hanging on the cross as made sin and the full condemnation fell upon Him. All that God is, J.N.D. says, He is against sin. And all that fell upon Jesus.

F.P.S. Is the statement “The Son of God has been manifested, that he might undo the works of the devil” 1 John 3: 8, going right back to the source of sin coming in?

G.R.C. I think what we are referring to lays the basis for that undoing. The undoing suggests work in detail.

• In His death the Lord Jesus annulled him that has the power of death, and annulled death itself; but the works of the devil are detailed matters.

• This meeting may help in the undoing of the works of the devil, through our sorting things out in ourselves. The undoing is a process.

• It is going to be done in the world as a whole; man is going to be removed from his place as centre and object, and God will be Centre and Object.

• But that is being worked out in us now, and this chapter is fundamental to it.

A.P.B. Is this reached through what we speak of as ‘the seventh of Romans’, in that you have there a picture of

• a person who is born anew, but who has not really yet reached the full condemnation of himself, and his identification with what he is as born of God?

G.R.C. I think so. The man in Romans 7 is an encouraging condition, because he is conscious of being serpent-bitten.

• There are persons who profess Christianity, and one would not say they are not true believers; they are like those at the end of chapter 2; they are convinced that Christianity is true, but yet retain themselves.

• This is what one dreads because, if you retain yourself, you just clothe yourself with Christian virtues to make a better man of yourself, and it makes you all the more impervious to the truth inwardly. You take the ground of being a good Christian man.

• Even amongst ourselves, it may be one may say, ‘I am in touch with all that is going, I keep in touch with all the ministry, I am right in the forefront’, but he is clothing himself with all that and it makes him all the more important in his own eyes.

• It is extraordinary how we can use the terms of the truth to make ourselves more important in our own eyes; so that we really have not got anywhere as to purification;
  • we are, in away, more impervious than ever to the real facts of the position; we are hiding our real state from ourselves.

• But the Lord is helping Nicodemus. The way that he approached the Lord shows that he was still hiding his state from himself; “Rabbi, we know that thou art come a teacher from God”, as much as to say, ‘I am quite in line with what is moving’.

• But he was hiding from himself his own state, and I believe it is possible to do that for many years, and therefore not come to the real conviction that we are serpent-bitten.

A.P.B. You mean there is a certain agony connected with being serpent-bitten, and it is the persons who know something of that agony that reach the conviction that they are really worse than they thought they were, and the agony is caused by what has really caused Christ agony on the cross?

G.R.C. And it is mortal agony. It is a life and death matter, the soul is in mortal agony; it cannot see any way out because of its state; not because of what it has done, but its state.

• If only we knew more of that mortal anguish which brings us to the point of desperation as at the end of Romans 7, so that we give up all hope in ourselves,
  • and look to another, the Lord Jesus, the One who was lifted up, and look intently, in order to apprehend the meaning of His death. That is the only way that that mortal anguish can be relieved.

P.H.H. Does it emphasise the two positive expressions “born of water” verse 5 and “thus is everyone that is born of the Spirit” verse 8?

• Those two elements being voiced by the Lord, do they begin to give us a view, and a line of positive comfort, leading to what is substantial?

G.R.C. Do you think that, while from the Divine side it is true we are born of water, and one would not disqualify anyone from that, in whom there is a work of God; yet the thing is worked out in our souls only when we arrive at the brazen serpent?

F.E.S. And is the need of this all the more emphasised, that in the world in which we are, the enemy is using culture and education, to hinder us from seeing what man really is after the flesh?

G.R.C. I believe that is why the Lord is raising the matter of professional associations; because of the tendency to retain the cultivated man. If we retain him in our associations I doubt whether we will ever get free of him in ourselves. What do you say to that?

A.J.G. I think that is right. I was thinking that we need to keep the Lord personally before us as having been crucified, and not even simply the truth as to the brazen serpent, so to speak.

• I was thinking of Paul, he says “I am crucified with Christ, and no longer live, I, but Christ lives in me”; Galatians 2: 20. Is not that a man who is in the good of purification?

G.R.C. I am very glad you have said that. It is Christ Him-self, as the One who has been crucified, who is before us.

J.Hr. Do you think, as tracing things to their origin, we have the matter met in verse 3 of Romans 8, “God, having sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh”? His own Son!

G.R.C. Beautiful. So in verse 16 of our chapter we have the only-begotten Son. There is the judicial side in verse 14, “the Son of man must be lifted up”; the Son of man, the One who took man’s place, He must be lifted up, just as we must be born anew. The two things go together.

• But then it immediately says “For God so loved the world”, God was the source of this movement,
  • “God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal”.

• This seems to show that no one who has not accepted the truth of the death of Christ, in the way we are speaking, really knows the love of God. If we pass by judgment, we pass by the love of God.

• The Lord says to the Pharisees, “ye … pass by the judgment and the love of God”, Luke 11: 42. You cannot have one without the other.

• If I am retaining a little bit of self and self-importance, then, in that measure, I fail to enjoy and understand the love of God.

• It is in accepting the complete setting aside of all that I am as after the flesh, and seeing how God has set it aside in the cross of Christ, where His only-begotten Son suffered, that I understand the love of God.

J.W.S. Naaman, having gone down seven times says “Behold, I know that there is no God in all the earth but in Israel”, 2 Kings 5: 15.

G.R.C. So you can see how in Romans 8 the love of God is developed; the love of God is spoken of in chapter 5, as

• “shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit” verse 5; and commended to us “in that, we being still sinners, Christ has died for us” verse 8.

• But having faced the issue of the brazen serpent, Christ crucified, in Romans 7, what a flood there is of God’s love in Romans 8. It is a chapter full of the love of God.

• God sending His own Son, and then “He who, yea, has not spared his own Son but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him grant us all things?”;

• and “I am persuaded that neither death, nor life … nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord”. The whole chapter is full of the love of God.

P.L. And is the vessel who stands by the cross, John, con-templatively – not just relievingly but adoringly you might say, in regard of Christ – is he the great apostle of love?

G.R.C. John did not pass by judgment, and therefore how fully he enjoyed the love of God!

P.L. The only serpent who had never bitten any one was the serpent of brass.

G.R.C. I would like more help as to why it was a serpent. It says that God has made Him sin for us.

A.J.G. I thought God was tracing things to their source. To be bitten by a serpent is a very serious matter because the poison of the serpent has been injected into the person, and is working in his whole system, eventually resulting in death. Is not that what we have to come to, that what is working in our flesh is of the serpent?

G.R.C. And ends in death. “This body of death”.

L.A.C. Is it not explained by the word “likeness” in Romans 8: 3?

G.R.C. “In likeness of flesh of sin”, that would refer to the fact that He was the Son of man, that He must be man to take our place.

E.I. Is there not a line running right through scripture, starting with the Spirit of God brooding over the waters, and carried through to this chapter, as to the operation of the Spirit in new birth?

G.R.C. Christ in the greatness of His Person is presented to lift us out of ourselves, with a view to purification, but there would be no results without the operation of the Holy Spirit, which, as you say, we can trace right through scripture.

R.C. Does not the Lord give a wonderful presentation of Himself by Himself in verse 13, preceding the sacrificial side in verse 14?

G.R.C. It is very impressive that the Lord should say “no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven”,

• and yet after such a statement He says “thus must the Son of man be lifted up”. Such an One as that!

A.P.B. Would there be, both in verse 13, and in verse 16, which refers to the only begotten Son, a reminder of what had come out in chapter 1, and that such a Person has actually taken that place upon the cross?

G.R.C. I think so. And would it not move us to the depth of our beings if we considered who it is that took our place?

A.J.G. It is God Himself taking up the matter in the Person of the Son.

G.R.C. And to think of the heavenly grace and beauty of the Person, the Son of man who is in heaven; such an One, to be made sin.

G.R.D. Is there something similar in the reference to the Holy Spirit’s sovereign action?

• “The wind blows where it will” seems to give some reference to the greatness of the Person of the Spirit,
  • and then “the Son of man, who is in heaven” brings in the greatness of the Son.

• Why are there these references both to the Spirit, and the Lord, in the greatness of Their Persons?

G.R.C. Do you think then that would lead us to worship of the Spirit, as well as the Son?

G.R.D. Yes. Both as regards the Spirit and the Lord Himself, this matter is not worked out without the souls of the persons going through it being deeply affected.

G.R.C. We ought to be deeply affected by the Spirit, and His operations. He was brooding over the face of the waters at the beginning, the word suggesting deep feeling there.

• How much we owe to Him, because as to all that has been wrought out objectively in Christ, and all the glory of His Person, we should be impervious to it all, but for the gracious, loving, sovereign activities of the Holy Spirit.

F.D. Could we bring into the thought of “the Son of man”, another Man altogether as so essential in deliverance?

G.R.C. “The Son of man who is in heaven” is a remarkable statement. It involves the truth of His Person, of course, but how it stresses that He is a Man of another order altogether.

P.H.H. Does it imply His deity? There are the three expressions in verse 13,

• “no one has gone up into heaven
• save he who came down out of heaven,
• the Son of man who is in heaven”.

• That last expression as taken in connection with the first two would imply not only His manhood I suppose, but what lies behind His manhood – the deity of His Person.

G.R.C. I think so; and yet stressing how beautiful was His manhood here, how heavenly the source; He came down out of heaven, His manhood is entirely out of heaven.

A.J.G. You were remarking yesterday how we get instances in this gospel of the skilful interweaving by the Spirit of the truth of Christ’s deity and of His manhood; and this 13th verse is one example of that.

• We get another in chapter 6: 62, where the Lord says “If then ye see the Son of man ascending up where he was before”.

G.R.C. It is most remarkable the way scripture puts the things in juxtaposition, so that we should never lose sight of one side or the other of the truth.

A.P.B. And is not the truth of this kind of life that we need to come into dependence on the Son of man being in heaven?

G.R.C. I am glad you have mentioned that, because in the verse before – verse 12 – what the Lord says might read “If I have said the earthlies to you and ye believe not, how if I say the heavenlies to you, will ye believe?”

• The word there for heavenly things is the same as used in Ephesians for “the heavenlies”, and it is used in Hebrews, “the heavenlies themselves with sacrifices better than these” are to be purified, Hebrews 9: 23.

• The Lord has in mind here “the heavenlies”. He Him-self is the Son of man who is in heaven, and the very purpose in coming was to open up the heavenlies to us!

• His operations at this time were not in view of the ‘earthlies’, they are coming later; there will be those born anew on the earth, according to Ezekiel, to fill out the place of earthly families;
  • but the Lord had in mind the heavenlies; and this teaching lies at the root of our entrance into the heavenlies.

• Those who have spoken a lot about being born anew, but have never accepted that they had to be, so as to discard that which is born of the flesh, have never touched the heavenlies.

• They will talk a lot about heaven and going to heaven when you die, but the Lord was bringing this truth in so to purify Nicodemus that he might have present entry into the heavenlies.

P.L. So that the heavenly road into the land is at once opened up after the brazen serpent.

• After that the children of Israel journeyed, not wandered. They pitched towards the sun-rising, and much water is referred to. Is it like Romans 8?

G.R.C. So that can you not see what a landmark the brazen serpent is? It was from that point on, after looking intently on the brazen serpent, that Israel had, typically, spiritual vision;

• and furthermore, while the kingdom had been set out objectively in the early part of Numbers, in all the tribes being ordered round the camp – that is a picture of the kingdom of God in its present aspect, God the Centre, and everything arranged around Him –
  • yet the intervening history shows they were not in accord with it, they were rebellious, they had not really entered the kingdom of God.

• But after the brazen serpent, typically they were in the gain of the kingdom. They were moving in divine order, so that Balaam says “How goodly are thy tents, Jacob, and thy tabernacles, Israel!”, Numbers 24: 5.

• He sees them encamped in divine order, he sees the kingdom in its present aspect, the tribes all in their place, and he says “the shout of a king is in his midst”, chapter 23: 21.

• The kingdom is there, and they are moving on to eternal life, in Canaan.

P.H.H. Do these three references therefore to the brazen serpent, namely

• Romans 8 bearing towards the wilderness,
• John 3 bearing towards the land, and
• 2 Corinthians 5 bearing on the great heavenly realm in finality,

• all show how the truth centring in the brazen serpent should receive more attention with us, and become expanding in its glory?

G.R.C. I think so. We do well to examine the scriptures you have mentioned,

• and also 1 Corinthians 1, where the word of the cross is so prominent, because they bear on the idea of the heavenlies.

• Romans 8 shows that, as we face the brazen serpent, we are thoroughly endowed in the Spirit with wealth to fulfil all our responsibilities here, so that nothing need detain us;
  • we are on the road to the heavenlies and we are paying our way in divine currency, so that there is no moral hindrance; and this chapter has in view that we should enter into eternal life.

• 1 Corinthians has in view that we should, therefore, take up, in the power of these things, the whole matter of the assembly, the assembly as a heavenly vessel here.

• The tabernacle of witness was patterned on what was in heaven, so that even in the Corinthian setting, viewed as the tabernacle of witness, the assembly stands related to the heavenlies.

I might say another thing about those who have not accepted this truth – they have never touched the assembly.

• We need to have the whole matter exposed to us, that those who opposed F.E.R. and professed to be standing for the truth of being born anew,

• and yet had not apprehended its meaning, and thus were carrying along with them that which is born of the flesh,
  • did not fulfil responsibility according to Romans, did not touch eternal life, which they professed to know so much about, and they did not under-stand the assembly as a heavenly vessel here.

P.L. The deity of the Spirit has been emphasised in chapter 3, verse 8.

• Would you say that in recent years the refusal, or reluctance, to give the Holy Spirit divine honours, as of the Deity, would also bear on the brazen serpent not being understood?

G.R.C. Yes I would. If the truth that “we must be born anew” was really understood, we could not fail to worship the Spirit, if we think of His grace, and how, from this standpoint, we owe everything to Him.

• “That which is born of the flesh is flesh”, and that which is born of the flesh is serpent-bitten, nothing good can come of it; but “that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”.

• And then in verse 8 “thus is everyone that is born of the Spirit”. How can I help thanking and worshipping the Spirit? I have been born of the Spirit, and, from this standpoint, I owe everything to Him.

A.P.B. After the brazen serpent they sing to the Spirit, asking Him to spring up. So that if we have come to the end of ourselves as the source of anything good, we delight to be able to ask the Spirit to spring up and bring in what is good.

G.R.C. We can claim Him, as it were, to do it. We have been born of Him. If He has operated in us, is He going to fail us in the other matters? Not at all!

–.P. Would you allow that there might be a danger with us of what happened in Hezekiah’s reign in 2 Kings 18? The serpent of brass had become an object of worship and he destroyed it. The meaning of it had been lost.

G.R.C. It shows that if the truth is not held in power, the very terms of it become a snare.

• As we have been saying earlier, we may clothe ourselves with the terms of the truth, and become more self-centred than ever.

• A man who is clothing himself with the terms of the truth, but not taking it home inwardly, is the kind of man who will leave the path of the testimony eventually, and it is very difficult to get beneath the surface with such a man.

• We have generations growing up amongst us who from early days know the terms, but a meeting like this is to exercise us all to get beneath the letter and to understand and accept the truth.

Ques. Does Hebrews 6: 4 bear on what you are saying, relative to the new birth?

• “For it is impossible to renew again to repentance those once enlightened, and who have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God, and the works of power of the age to come, and have fallen away, crucifying to themselves as they do, the Son of God, and making a show of him”.

G.R.C. Those would be persons who had never been born anew; we have been referring to persons who we trust were born anew – we have to leave it with God – but they have come to a point where they have left the path of testimony.

• We cannot say much about such persons. We would give them credit for having been born anew, but they have never accepted the implications of it; whereas it is essential to accept the implications of it, which are so vast, so complete.

P.L. I wondered whether typically Moses entered in his spirit into the implications of it. He was not told formally by Jehovah to make a serpent of brass, the word “of brass” is added.

• One wondered if the deep feeling, ministerial character of this ministry of brass, so to speak – one thinks of J.B.S.’s ministry peculiarly, among many others –

• would help us to hold the truth, not merely in terms, but as furnishing feelingly and experimentally what would enhance the ministry, and keep it on its living and holy level.

G.R.C. I am sure that is right. The word is “Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole” but “Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole”.

A.T.B. Would Paul exemplify what has been said about the brazen serpent, the Spirit’s comment is “Saul who also is Paul”. He had reached that ground experimentally.

• Paul I understand means ‘little’, that was a good start towards accepting the brazen serpent; he was nothing at all in himself.

• The Spirit of God says of him in Acts 13: 9 “But Saul, who also is Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixing his eyes upon him said, O full of all deceit and all craft; son of the devil”.

G.R.C. It does not simply say that he was also named Paul, but “Saul, who also is Paul”. It refers to a man who had accepted this truth that we are engaged with.

P.H.H. In connection with your remarks about the word of the cross in 1 Corinthians 1, does it release Paul to say so much in the next chapter of that epistle, about the Spirit,

• speaking, not so much about our receiving the Spirit, but as to what the Spirit does, searching the depths of God?

• Does that cut away practically the first man from us, but opens up another world in the Spirit, and another power?

G.R.C. It really opens up – although the Corinthians were not in the gain of it – what you get typically after the brazen serpent, in Numbers; that is, the Spirit was characterising everything.

• It was a dry and thirsty land that they were in, but it says that they were like “gardens by the river side”. There was an abundance of water. “Water shall flow out of his buckets”. 1 Corinthians 2 seems to remind us of that.

P.H.H. Yes, and it fits in with the clear sight and view of the assembly now, the vessel where all these things are presented to us so clearly.

R.C. Would the lifting up of the Son of man have in mind that God should Himself be the Centre of every heart and every desire?

G.R.C. “I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me”. He draws all to Him on the basis of the complete judgment of sin and the display of God. God’s love and glory are in full display.

A.J.G. So that the fact that we are born of the Spirit shows that God, who is a Spirit, wants us to be in the closest possible affinity to Himself.

E.A.K. Does the fact that it is the initial work of the Spirit in our souls that is engaging us, have a special appeal to our affections in the light of what the Lord Jesus says in John 14 as to the thought of knowing the Spirit, “ye know him, for he … shall be in you”?

• Are not our affections being touched in this way by the Spirit Himself, to help us away from mere terms?

G.R.C. I feel it should touch our affections greatly, to think that we have been born of the Spirit. He had to do with us before we knew anything about Him. But the time comes when the Lord says “ye know him”.

G.W.B. After a long painful process, Job was brought to abhor himself. He was not of Israel, but I was wondering whether his history would illustrate our side of the matter.

• In John 1 it says “the life was the light of men”. Would the Lord coming in show the need of all those exercises leading to the point of abhorring self?

G.R.C. I think so. It bears on the word, “God so loved the world”. It is not Israel here, but God so loved the world.

• How wonderfully God dealt with Job and he says, “Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes”. And I believe that is the place for us all to be, in the light of this chapter.

• We recognise that that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and from the Divine standpoint, in the death of Christ, that has ended judicially. Dust refers to death, and ashes to the judgment borne.

M.H.T. Is it of interest that Romans 8 begins with the grand principle of “no condemnation”, followed by the touching truth that Christ was offered in our stead,

• and then how the truth is arrived at, at the end of the chapter; “it is God who justifies, who is he that condemns?”;

• showing that Romans 8 is Psalm-like in structure. He begins with the point that he reaches at the end of the chapter.

L.L. Should this touch our affections, that the Lord would go over all these wonderful things with one man? We speak often about Nicodemus going to Jesus by night, but the Lord met him by night. He was available to him at any time.

G.R.C. So that we can all go away from this meeting with this in our minds, that the Lord will go over this with us, if we give Him space;

• although we are gathered collectively, it may be that He has been going over it with us in some degree in a personal way, even as we have been sitting together.

L.L. Some of us who have been brought up by Christian parents have a lot to be thankful for, but do you not think that we can take too much for granted, and we have got to reach this each one for himself?

G.R.C. Let us remember what you have said, that the Lord is prepared to go over this again with each one of us personally.

But the passage we are on, in a way springs out of the close of the previous chapter, where we get the closing testimony of John the baptist, and the heavenlies coming into view in a very choice way.

• It is not only a matter of eternal life, but the bridegroom and the bride, a most exquisite feature.

• If we think of Genesis 1 and 2 as giving some idea, in its spiritual application, of eternal life, we see a most exquisite feature in the man and the woman;
  • there are other features, of course, but this is one which would strike us first, and captivate the heart. It is remarkable that John closes his testimony thus.

• The Lord had said “If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe?”

• And now John is finishing his service with a setting forth of something most choice connected with the heavenlies, “He that has the bride is the bridegroom”.

• You have this great disclosure that the glorious Person of chapter 1, One so ineffably great, takes this place in manhood as the Bridegroom.

• Surely, the very thought of it would make us all long, in a practical way, to take on the features of the bride! Think of having such a Bridegroom!

Then the Lord, in the next chapter, follows it up – if we might so say – in speaking to the woman by saying

• “the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father”.

• That is the voice of the Bridegroom. If the Bridegroom has His place with us, He will lead us on.

• But both of these things are in the present, “He that has the bride”. It is something connected with the heavenlies at the present time, “He that has the bride is the bridegroom”, true in its fulness in the future, but true now;
  • and then in chapter 4: 23 “the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father”.

• So we are being introduced to the heavenlies, and, connected with that, as it must be, the great economy of God is coming into view.

We have spoken of what souls have missed who have never faced the Lord’s teaching in chapter 3 in its true meaning, and who have retained and carried with them that which is born of the flesh, which is flesh.

• We can be sure if we carry that with us it will ruin us in the end. But with such persons, how little entry, if any, have they had into these great matters vitally!
  • The heavenlies can only be entered into by purified persons.

• And how little they have known of the Bridegroom and the bride, how little they know of the active and practical working of the economy of God!

So I think we shall begin to see the immense advantage of making way for the teaching we have had before us, so that we might have an unhindered entry into these great, these superlative things.

• John the baptist, therefore, closes his ministry as a great example of a purified man.

• There was a reasoning going on, “a reasoning of the disciples of John with a Jew about purification”,
  • showing how we can reason about these things, and know the doctrine of them – clothe ourselves with knowledge – and yet retain the flesh untouched.

• But there was no need to reason about purification, you had only to look at John and you saw it.

• There was one man standing out as an example of purification, like one of the water pots at this great nuptial scene, the Bridegroom and the bride.

• He was like a water pot filled to the brim, and therefore his joy was filled full. The water had turned to wine in John and so he says in verse 29 “this my joy then is fulfilled”.

• The joy of his heart was available for others and the joy that was in the heart of John is carried to us today.

• He was but the friend of the Bridegroom, and yet what an example for us who through grace form part of the bride, that we should be self-effacing,
  • so that no personality might come between the heart of the bride and the Bridegroom.

E.J.H. It is very great encouragement that in new birth, and the Spirit, there are all the divine potentialities for this to be realised, if we will only make room for what is on the Divine side, in our favour.

G.R.C. It is most encouraging when we see it working out in this woman, because, if it would work out in her, it could in any of us.

E.J.H. I wondered whether that is why the word is changed from ‘well’ to ‘fountain’. The source is usually in a well, but the Lord speaks of a fountain.

• The source would not be in her; but if one has an inexhaustible source, as in God Himself, you can have a million fountains.

G.R.C. So that the idea of source comes into the matter again, in that expression. We have spoken of source as to our birth, and the source of sin in the serpent; but now we have the living water.

• Wherever the source of the water is that is supplying a fountain, the fountain will rise to the height of the water from which its source is. And the source is God Himself. “If thou knewest the gift of God”.

• So that we each have a fountain in us, as having received the Spirit, which, if not hindered, will rise up to its source, which is God Himself, and that is the idea in chapter 4.

P.H.H. When you speak of the economy here, is it with the idea that there is a great divine system now, the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit,

• for the benefit of these persons who are being individually dealt with, and yet being drawn on to what is greater than anything individual?

• I was thinking of the end of chapter 3. “The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand”, and then that theme continued in chapter 4: 5, “near to the land which Jacob gave to his son Joseph. Now a fountain of Jacob’s was there”.

G.R.C. Exactly. So that chapter 3 closes with what is most choice in connection with the heavenlies.

• There is “He that has the bride is the bridegroom”, the wonderful presentation of Christ as the Bridegroom, and as having the bride, what a glorious conception!

• And then, verse 35, “The Father loves the Son”, the great economy of God, “The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand”.

• And as you say, in chapter 4 we see that even the gift of the Holy Spirit is in His hand.

P.L. Would it be that you have the ultimate in divine operations in relation to Christ personally, in the bride;

• and then, is there a thought in this administration in sonship, of what God is to have in His sons?

• And would Ephesians abound in that, in regard to the service of God, not only union with Christ, but sonship?

• Are these two great landmarks in divine purpose? It is the economy, and Divine Persons in it, operating to the satisfaction of Their own love?

G.R.C. What you say is very affecting, Divine Persons in this economy operating for the satisfaction of divine love.

• What could satisfy divine love but the Bridegroom having the bride, and the Father having worshippers?

R.D. Is there a link between John saying “He that has the bride is the bridegroom”, and the Lord’s use of the word “Woman” in chapter 4: 21, as following the resolving of the moral issue?

G.R.C. I thought there was. We might say in connection with chapter 3: 29, ‘Where is the bride?’ “He that has the bride is the bridegroom”. ‘Where is she?’

• But the bride was coming into evidence. Two of John’s disciples had heard him say “Behold the Lamb of God”, and they had followed Jesus.

• And so we have seen others being drawn to Jesus in chapter 1. But now, the thing was taking more specific shape in this woman; that is, there were features of the bride.

• So that we can see that in chapter 4, in principle, the bridegroom was securing the features of the bride; for at the close of the interview, her heart was filled with one Man.

• She had had dealings with other men, five husbands, and one who was not her husband; but all that was passed for ever. “Come, see a man” – only one Man!

J.O.T.D. Why does this come to light in Samaria? Does it link with what is brought to light in the time of recovery, after all the departure has come in, and the mixture is fully rooted in the sphere of the Lord’s name?

• This choice matter was now being brought out in its pristine glory, but after all the degradation and mixture had been thoroughly developed.

G.R.C. It is evident that the way the Lord is presented in this gospel is for our day particularly. It is to bring us out into separation and personal purification, so that the features of the bride might be in evidence at the close.

P.L. That would be Philadelphia, after all the sorrow and unfaithfulness of the public vessel – “they … shall know that I have loved thee”, Revelation 3: 9.

P.H.H. Would it also bear on Paul’s ministry to the Corinthians, where he says in 2 Corinthians 11: 2,

• “For I am jealous as to you with a jealousy which is of God; for I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ”?

G.R.C. I think the presentation of the Lord in this gospel has recovered us to that thought; so that through grace,

• it is our concern at this present time, that local companies should be espoused to one Man.

• Paul says, “I have espoused you”, that was that company in Corinth. And that should be in our minds in connection with each one of our local companies.

• Persons have purified themselves, in separating from what is around, and we should help one another as to inward purification,

• so that each local company in these last days, however few in number, might be espoused to one Man and presented a chaste virgin to Christ.

P.L. And would that work out on the Ephesian line,
“Grace with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in incorruption”? Is that the bridal thought?

G.R.C. What a word that is! It touches motives. What are really our motives in going on with things? What are our motives in service? How this tests us!

• And yet, if we touch this question of purification we have got to get down to those inward matters.

R.C. Is it encouraging that despite the mixed conditions that have come in, Divine Persons continue to proceed with Their own thoughts at Their own level?

• I am thinking of verse 5, “near to the land which Jacob gave to his son Joseph”. That reaches far back, but it is carried through now.

G.R.C. The woman says in v. 12, “Art thou greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well ?”, so it is traced back to the giver, “and drank of it himself”.

• The Lord had said to the woman “Give me to drink”. That is the initial thing.

• But the woman goes back to Jacob, the giver of the well, who would represent God, and says that he drank of it himself.

• And that is what is in mind in this chapter; the Lord is going to receive drink, but the Father, too, the One who gave the well, is to receive drink, and so are His sons and His cattle.

• The gift of the Spirit as the fountain has great results.

A.G.B. Will the return flow come through our knowledge of what the Lord would unfold, as speaking of “the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink”, “The woman says, Sir, give me this water”.

• Does the return flow go back by way of our knowing, and asking, and drinking?

G.R.C. I think that is the only way. We must drink, that is our side. He gives, but we must drink. And then, as drinking, it becomes in us “a fountain”.

• It is when it has become in us a fountain that there is really the return flow, in bridal affection for Christ, and responsive love to the Father.

A.G.B. I was thinking of ‘asking’ as over against the sovereign operations of the Spirit. There comes a point in this chapter where everything depends on the asking, and the drinking, on our side.

G.R.C. If we have really arrived at the truth of chapter 3, we shall ask. The Spirit will be an absolute necessity to us.

• Romans 7 shows that the work of the Spirit in us, as born of the Spirit, is not sufficient. The work of the Spirit in us gives us right desires, but no power to carry them out.

• The soul in Romans 7 is in a state of misery, and captivity to the law of sin in his members. So that the work of the Spirit in us, if we make way for it, and go through those exercises, leads us to cry “who shall deliver me?”

• And we arrive at the two sides of the deliverance. The Son of man lifted up is the way God has met the matter judicially; we see that the condemnation with which we are condemning ourselves has been met and borne by Christ.

• But on the other hand, it is “in order that the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit”.

• That is to say, God having condemned sin in the flesh in Christ on the cross, the Spirit is available for the asking. “You would have asked of him”, the Lord said.

• A soul that is born of the Spirit “hungers and thirsts after righteousness”. That is one of the things it thirsts after.

• The soul in Romans 7 is wanting to do right, but evil is present with him. He is thirsting to do right. Whatever the thirst may be, it is quenched in the gift of the Spirit.

E.J.H. Has not J.T. said about Romans 7, that when you have solved the problem, and reached the end of the chapter,

• the Spirit is standing by, so to speak, saying ‘I will now take you on, and carry you through in regard to every right desire’. So the Spirit is mentioned 18 times in Romans 8.

E.I. Is there moral progress in the way water is brought forward in the two chapters; in chapter 3, moral cleansing, there was “much water”, and then in this chapter, is it more water in the way of refreshment, satisfaction, and life?

G.R.C. I think both aspects of the water have to do with purification. This side stresses satisfaction, but it is also purification. This woman’s inward parts were purified by the gift of the living water.

• Living or running water is brought in in the Old Testament in connection with matters of cleansing, as with the leper, for instance. And in Numbers 19, the ashes were placed in a vessel with running water.

• “Born of water and of the Spirit”, would involve the word of the cross brought livingly home to the soul by the Spirit. I think the idea of being born of water and of the Spirit links on with the thought of deliverance.

A.J.G. And does not that deliverance take form by the Spirit connecting the heart with the Man, that is Christ.

• It is important to keep that in mind, otherwise we begin to get occupied with the Spirit’s operations in us.

G.R.C. I am sure that is right. “If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is”.

• The woman is coming into the range of the economy. This is how a soul first has to do, in a practical way, with the operations of the economy of God.

• The first Person that the soul consciously comes in touch with is the Lord Jesus. The Spirit has operated, perhaps, long before; but the soul does not know the Spirit at that stage.

• The Lord Jesus is presented in the gospel that souls might come into living touch with Him. And so He says to her, “If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is”.

• The first thing that begins to dawn on the soul is who Jesus is. And the gospel is presented that souls might come to some apprehension of who Jesus is.

• Then He says, “thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water”. So the second touch is with the Spirit.

• You come into touch with the Lord Jesus, but then, as obeying Him, you normally receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

P.L. This woman comes into the economy in contact with Christ in relation to personal exercises and responsibility;

• while when you come to the man in John 9, and his contact with Christ, and worshipping Him as the Son of God, the basis is laid in his soul for being in the economy collectively with his brethren, the sheep – he is one of them.

P.H.H. Would you say more about the water? I am thinking now of Ephesians 5, where Christ is already before the soul, in Paul’s ministry,

• “Christ also loved the assembly, and has delivered himself up for it”, then he goes on to say, “purifying it by the washing of water by the word, that he might present the assembly to himself glorious”, 5: 26-27.

• The question that has been in my mind for some time is a kind of double view of the water in John – if that is correct.

• First of all in and behind both views there is the Spirit Himself;

• but in some cases, would it be right to say it is the death of Christ that is in view, surely being ministered to us by the Spirit, on the basis of John’s later word, “this is he that came by water and blood” and so on, 1 John 5: 6.

• Then in the gospel, in chapter 19: 34, “immediately there came out blood and water”.

• Would it be right to carry that thought of the water forward into this assembly setting in Ephesians 5,
  • where the Lord uses His own service in ministry, and dealings, with the assembly as such, in order to bring about complete purity in the assembly, everything being in keeping with His own death?

• My main question is in regard of how the water stands in Ephesians 5.

G.R.C. I am not sure that I can answer your main question, but I think your remarks in regard to the water in John are thoroughly right.

• The water that flowed from the side of Christ would be the water that is in mind I would think in chapter 3.

• And yet, as you say, born of water and of the Spirit implies that the meaning of the water in cleansing power, as linked with the death of Christ, is brought in power into the soul by the Spirit.

• In chapter 4, the Spirit springing up within us does not cease to bring that side home. We cannot shut that side out of chapter 4.
  • He springs up in us as a source of refreshment, but ever keeping us in a fresh sense of what the death of Christ means.

• But then the main point is the positive side, that He springs up within us, that is, He would fill every compartment of our being.

• And I think that is the idea of drinking; we open all our inwards to the Spirit, we let Him have full control of our inwards.

• The Lord gives, but we drink; and a thirsty person loves to feel the water entering the inwards; and we should open all our inwards to the Spirit;

• not holding back any reserves, so that every part of our being is filled and energised by the Spirit, who springs up, and therefore would lead us in chastity, in response to Christ, and also in response to the Father.

P.B. Does this have the effect of regulating our affections?

G.R.C. He would fill our inward parts, and lead all our affections in chastity to Christ, the Bridegroom, and through Him to the Father.

A.B. Is that why the Lord does not immediately answer her question when she asks for the water, in verse 15, but says “Go, call thy husband, and come here”?

G.R.C. It was evident that there were things to be judged in her soul. She could not properly drink until that matter was settled,

• there were compartments of her being that were closed to God; she was living a life without God, she was living in sin.

• And all that had to be exposed with a view to her drinking freely of this water, so that every compartment of her being would be filled with the living water.

A.B. Had the Lord in mind to gain her affections in raising the question, so that she says “Come, see a man”; One who had gained her heart?

G.R.C. Had He not also in mind the necessity of raising the question, because this matter must come into the light.

P.L. If He did not raise it then, it would have to be raised when He was seated on the great white throne.

A.T.B. I believe many of us have never been really clear as to who the Lord was referring to when He said “If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is”. The Person was there.

• In chapter 3, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son”, I mean what a Giver God is; He gave His Son. Primarily, is He referring to that, or the gift of the Spirit?

G.R.C. I would not like to limit, but I would think primarily the gift of the Spirit is in mind here.

• Jesus says to her “Give me to drink”. So that drink is the subject of the conversation; and He says “If thou knewest the gift of God”.

• But then, it must include the gift of the only-begotten Son, for the Spirit would not be available otherwise. But I think what is primarily in view here is the Spirit.

• And then He says “who it is”, the One who was speaking was the only-begotten Son.

A.T.B. J.N.D. has said, if you would have a Giver, you must come to God. Man has nothing to give. What a God we have!

G.R.C. The thought of God as a Giver is to come into our souls, and in the preaching that is in mind, that men should get an impression of God as the great Giver.

• But then, they must in the first instance, having got that impression, come in touch with the One who says “who it is”.

• We present the Person, we present Him in His manhood, and in His deity, in the gospel, “Who it is”,
  • so that souls might learn who He is, and what His place is in the economy. “The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand”.

• And if you asked of Him, He would give you. The Father is the great Giver in the economy,
  • and He has put everything in the hands of the Son with a view to dispensing to such a person as this. So He says “he would have given thee”.

A.P.A. At the end of chapter 3 it says “For God gives not the Spirit by measure”. Would the opening of our inwards be our answer to that?

G.R.C. Yes. The only measure is the size of the vessel. The thing is to open our inwards, so that we are completely filled.

L.A.C. Would you say something further as to the thought of ‘drinking’ in verse 12? We can understand the thought of Jacob drinking, and perhaps even his sons. Would you enlarge further as to the thought of his cattle?

G.R.C. I think the cattle refer to our spiritual wealth, what is available as offerings to God.

• Everything in the way of our satisfaction, and in the way of Divine satisfaction, depends on the presence of the Holy Spirit in the saints. We have satisfaction, we never thirst for ever;

• but then, there is drink for the Lord Jesus, there is the response in bridal affection, and the Father, the great Giver, the Head of the economy, drinks of this well Himself, and His sons, and His cattle.

• I would think we could apply it to what is in the saints in the way of spiritual wealth. It all thrives through the gift of the Spirit.

L.G.B. And all on the line of life. The cattle would be live-stock.

G.R.C. Yes. “Offerings to God are in abundance brought”.

A.J.G. Is it not important to realise that the gift of the Holy Spirit is the characteristic blessing of Christianity? Peter announced it on the day of Pentecost,

• “Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”, Acts 2: 38, as though that was the great thing that God had in mind to give.

• All the great thoughts of God whether it be Christ and the assembly, or the Father and sons, or the worship of God; for all these to be entered upon in any degree of reality and power by the saints, we need the Holy Spirit.

• The gift of the Holy Spirit is for bringing in all that is characteristic of Christianity, in contrast with the other dispensations.

G.R.C. So that this chapter would again cause our hearts to well out in worship to the Spirit.

G.W.B. “Whosoever drinks … shall never thirst for ever”. Does it involve that we are characteristically opening our inwards, continuously?

G.R.C. Very good. On the Lord’s side it is a gift, “he would have given thee living water”, but our side is the drinking, “whosoever drinks”.

• We have to open our inwards to the Spirit, and see that there is no compartment reserved.

• This woman had had five husbands, what compartments she had had! And there was one she was living with who was not her husband.

• If that had not been all brought out and judged, how could she have drunk of this water, what room would there have been for the Spirit, in her inward parts?
  • We need to make room for the Spirit.

F.E.S. Would you say that purification is essential for enjoyment of and availability to the Spirit?

G.R.C. There is the initial purification, like the woman judging her course, and receiving the Lord into her affections by the Spirit,

• but then as we go on drinking, giving place to the Spirit, this pure fountain springing up, keeps us pure all along the line.

L.L. There were some compartments in Nicodemus that were reserved, but there seems a total collapse in this woman.

G.R.C. It refers to the land which Jacob gave to his son Joseph. Here was some of the land, as it were, coming to light.

• There was the land which Jacob gave to his son Joseph, and a fountain was there; and that is the position in this world.

• There are those the Father has given to the Son, and what makes the position so potential is the gift of the Spirit, that there is a fountain in that property which the Father has given to the Son.

C.J.H.D. Was that land not secured on the basis of conflict? Would the reference to the taking of it out of the hands of the Amorite, by “the sword”, indicate the direct matter of conflict in the death of Christ,

• but then “the bow” is also used, and is this woman not coming within range, as it were, that more territory might be secured from a distance?

G.R.C. I would think that. The Amorite was an inhabitant of the land; it shows that the heavenlies are in mind.

• It is heavenly territory on earth, taken out of the hand of the Amorite; not out of the hand of the Egyptian, nor even out of the hand of the Moabite, but out of the hand of the Amorite.

• There is heavenly territory on earth; and it consists of those whom the Father has given to the Son. The potentiality of the territory is that a fountain is there.

F.H. Why is the word changed from “fountain”? She speaks of “a well”.

G.R.C. I think in a way the woman herself becomes the well. The well is the containing thing, it is the fountain that fills the well.

• In natural things, to have a well you must have a fountain in it; and the level of the well will be the level of the place from which the fountain, which is in the well, draws its source.

• But in our case, it is more than the figure of a well; we become vessels, but the fountain that is in us has its source in God himself.

• So that there is a fountain in us with its source in God, and it rises to God. That is how I understand the fountain.

P.H.H. Is there therefore an upward trend in this section of the scripture? First of all in the exercise of the woman, and what we might call her desire for the Spirit,

• then what you say about the fountain rising to the level of its own source, and

• then the way the Lord takes up her word “worship”. Is that going still higher on this upward trend?

G.R.C. It is. But in moving on we have not got an answer to your question on Ephesians 5.

• Although the setting in John 4 was quite different, was the Lord dealing with this woman with a view to bridal features coming out,

• and would His words to her be in view of her purification? Had not the Lord’s words a washing effect upon her?

P.H.H. Might we ask Mr. G. about Ephesians 5?

A.J.G. I do not know that one can say much, but one thought the word was bringing home to us, in an intelligible way, what the full import of the death of Christ, where His love was expressed, is.

• The washing of water by the word in Ephesians 5 is the full thought of bathing. It is not like feet-washing, it is the full thought.

• It is the removal completely of the man, in order that we might intelligently enter into what we are by the work of God, as suitable to be united to Christ.

G.R.C. That is very helpful. We ought to keep in mind that it is the full thought of bathing there. Some have likened it to the bridal bath that was customary in the East.

A.J.G. So that the Lord would bring it home to us, perhaps freshly every first day of the week, so that we might be free in our spirits to enter into union without any hindrance.

G.R.C. That is very fine. He would speak to us as we approach the Lord’s day,

• in order that we might be in the gain of our complete cleansing from the man that would hinder, and, instead

• be marked by the fragrance of His words, because it is the spoken word in that passage. His words of love leave their fragrance upon the vessel, as in the case of the spouse in the Song of Songs.

E.A.E. It says in Psalm 147: 18, “He sendeth his word, and melteth them; he causeth his wind to blow – the waters flow”.

• Do not those three expressions come out in what you are drawing our attention to now in these chapters in John, with regard to purification, and the effect?

• Might this reference to “word” help us in view of cleansing, because Psalm 119: 9 says “Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his path? by giving heed thereto according to thy word”?

G.R.C. It shows what an important place the word has in cleansing, the word applied in the power of the Spirit.

• And the personal word of Christ, His personal service, in Ephesians 5, is specially affecting.

• Here, in another setting, we have the personal service of Christ to this woman – His own words; how cleansing they were!

C.W.O'L.M. In Ephesians 5: 26 it speaks about cleansing “it”, the assembly. Is not that a little different from the working in our inwards?

G.R.C. Certainly that passage has its own distinctiveness. It is the assembly there viewed as a whole and it is bathing.

• No doubt it takes place in detail, as we go along; but the full picture is presented there, “that he might present the assembly to himself glorious, having no spot or wrinkle, or any such things”.

A.P.A. Is not the final touch in the Lord’s word here in verse 26? It is literally “I am who speaks with thee”.

G.R.C. No wonder it broke her down. She had nothing more to say; the disciples came, and the woman left her water pot.

• Her soul was filled at this point. She had said “I know that Messias is coming who is called Christ; when he comes he will tell us all things”.

• That is a feature of the Christ, He tells all things in connection with the service of God, and about every-thing else too. Solomon would be in mind in this title, the Christ.

• What marked Solomon was that he spoke of every-thing, from the cedar unto the hyssop that grows out of the wall. He spoke about cattle and creeping things; there was nothing, in that sense, outside of the range of Solomon.

• Everything that related to God and His service, and had any bearing on it, Solomon could speak about. And that was undoubtedly in the woman’s mind.

• The Lord had told her something about divine worship and service, but she says, When the Christ comes, He will tell us everything. What an impression she had got of the greatness of the Christ!

• And here was the Person, He had come, the “I am” was there, who had come to fill out this great office of the Christ. What could He not tell her?

• But then, when she goes to the men of the city, she goes as a true witness, her heart full of Christ, a worshipper, “Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done”.

• What a powerful witness she was, her heart full of Christ, emptied of everything else! “Is not he the Christ?”, is not a question of doubt, not at all.

• But she does not begin to tell them what He has said about this mountain and Jerusalem; she knows just what to say in evangelizing and that is, “He told me all things I had ever done”.

• Had she begun to speak to them about worship they would have been antagonised, but the impression she had got of Him was that He would tell her all things.

• There was nothing that He could not tell her, as to the greatest things of God; but in the gospel message, she says “he told me all things I had ever done”. That shows how we need wisdom in the gospel.

P.L. Is she taking a woman’s place in the economy suitably, she is not asserting, she is saying, “is not he the Christ ?” Is there a large field for sisters in that way?

G.R.C. The feminine word is used in Psalm 69: 11, and in J.N.D.’s French translation, he actually uses the word “women”, “great the multitude of the women that published it”.

• The Lord gave the word – and the Lord gave the word here to the woman – but great were the multitude of the women that published it.

• And sisters have great scope, I believe, in publishing the word. They have personal contacts with local people that often the brothers have not.

• They have also opportunity to do kind deeds among neighbours, doing good to all men.

• What opportunities for testimony; and what a powerful testimony if a sister can speak like this woman, in the spirit of it, “Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done”.

J.O.T.D. Should we not be on the line of securing persons for the assembly?

G.R.C. I am sure we should. And that takes us back to what we have passed over. The woman says

• “Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where one must worship. Jesus says to her, Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when ye shall neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem worship the Father”.

• It is wonderful how He is leading her into the truth of the economy. She has had a touch with Him, and if we apply it to a soul nowadays,
  • she would have had a touch with the Spirit; and now the Lord speaks to her of the Father.

• I do not think the Lord had spoken to anyone of the Father before this; He had spoken of “My Father’s house”, but He begins to speak of the Father.

• Whatever must the woman have thought, when He said “shall neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem worship the Father”. She had never heard God called Father before.
  • “Ye worship ye know not what; we worship what we know, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for also the Father seeks such as his worshippers”.

• What a wonderful presentation of the Father to this woman! How it must have captivated her heart, the thought of true worshippers worshipping the Father, and the Father seeking such as His worshippers!

• What an eye-opener to this woman! And what a complete purification of her mind in connection with religious systems!

• What her Lord says here, in a few words, would free the minds of the saints from all religious systems; it is not a question of this mountain, nor Jerusalem; it is a question of worshipping the Father in spirit and truth, which again goes back to inward purification.

P.H.H. Is that why the word spirit is used two or three times here? It says in verse 23 “worship the Father in spirit and truth”, then “God is a spirit, and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth”. Is the Lord driving at this inward thought?

G.R.C. Yes, and it really settles the whole matter of 2 Timothy days for us.

• It is remarkable how the Lord, in a few words, can put things which, in apostolic doctrine, rightly takes quite a long discourse to unfold.

• It is not a question of here or there, not a question of any human system, because all these human systems are linked with “that which is born of the flesh”; and that has all been set aside, as we have seen in the previous chapter.

• All human systems are cleared from the mind and now you come to the real thing – worshipping the Father in spirit and truth, and that involves purified persons.

E.I. Do we get the idea of drinking in Genesis 24, and the thought of the digging of the wells in chapter 26?

G.R.C. It all bears on what we are saying, Genesis 24 brings in something that we have not got here, that is, that the Spirit Himself has a portion. The servant asks for a sip.

A.J.G. As the attractiveness of the suggestion of worshipping the Father in spirit and truth came home to the woman,

• she would be prepared for all the exposure, so that every element of darkness in her should be out and judged, and she would be free to worship, would she not?

G.R.C. That is wonderful, because what she had done merited judgment; but then the Lord says in this gospel, “the Father judges no one”.

• She must have had an impression of grace when He brought in the word “Father”. How it would set her conscience at rest!

A.J.G. In principle she passed the judgment seat of Christ.

A.P.B. In John’s gospel, the character of life that is in view really has its origin in the wonderful economy in which the Father loves the Son;

• and the affections seen between God as Father, and Christ as Man, in sonship, give character to everything, including the worship.

G.R.C. I think “The Father loves the Son” is the key to things in the economy. It has been rightly said,

• the Father is the great Originator and Director of everything in the economy, and I think the motive of it all is His love for the Son.

A.P.B. I was thinking of “God so loved the world”, but then, in the actual working of it out, it is “The Father loves the Son”, is it not?

G.R.C. “God so loved the world” is the great testimony, it is the display of God in His nature and character. Nothing could be greater than the display of God’s nature and character.

• What God ever was and is has now come into display; God is light and God is love. He is righteous and holy. Every feature of His character is in radiant display in Christ.

• But then though all is in display, there would not be the slightest response in man if left to himself. Man is serpent-bitten, and that radiant glory could shine, and there would be no response from a single member of mankind.

• So you must have the economy. You must have the operations of the Spirit, and of the Son, and of the Father.

• The Father is the Head of the economy, and is the Source of these activities; He sends the Son and sends the Spirit, and the great motive is His love for the Son.

• The economy means that there shall be results, and that there shall be souls brought into the gain of divine love in such a manner that they can be set down in the presence of the display of God in His nature and character, and be perfectly at home there.

• But it is the economy, and the operations of the economy that bring that about in the economy.

P.L. So that in Hebrews, to deliver the saints from lifeless religion, the economy is emphasised at the beginning.

• The apostle and the high priest, and then the great high-light, so to speak of the economy,
  • the bringing of many sons to glory, and “both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one”,

  • and the declaration of “thy name to my brethren” and “in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises”.

• Have you, in the presence of the derelict religion, so to speak, in the beginning of Hebrews, God setting out that the economy is going through to the satisfaction of Divine love in the greatness of the Persons who compose it?

G.R.C. This chapter confirms it, for the worship “now is”. Think of this going on at the end of the dispensation, as you say, amongst derelict religion.

• It is going on now, this great service, the worship of the Father, through the operations of this great economy of love.

• And souls are set down in the presence of Him who is the effulgence of God’s glory, and the expression of His substance, to worship God in spirit and truth.

• That effulgence could have shone for ever, and there would be no results,
  • but the activities of the Persons of the Godhead in the economy have brought about results, and men are there, in the presence of the effulgence, and at rest.

A.T.B. We get the light shining in the darkness in chapter 1, but there was no ability whatever for man to enter into it, until there was movement from the Divine side.

G.R.C. So as you say, chapter 1 sets out the position generally. In human affairs, the moment you bring light into a dark room, the darkness goes;

• but the darkness was such, that though the light came, it did not alter the darkness; it shows the awful character of what is called “the darkness”.

• It needed fresh operations on the part of the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit, fresh sovereign operations, to effect anything.

A.W.G.T. It says in Ephesians 5: 8, “for ye were once darkness, but now light in the Lord”. The fruit of the light comes out in the woman, who was once darkness, but now becomes light.

Rem. We have in Revelation 21: 25, that “‘night shall not be there”.

G.R.C. The darkness is gone. What a wonderful thing!

M.H.T. In the language of Hebrews, does the woman really become a purged worshipper, having no more conscience of sins?

G.R.C. I am sure she does.

Ques. Verse 22 says “ye worship ye know not what”, is that worshipping in darkness? But the verse continues “we worship what we know”, is that worshipping in purity?

G.R.C. Yes. Through this great economy of love we have been brought into the closest conceivable relations with God, and we can say “we worship what we know”.

Now the last section completes the subject of these chapters. The Lord had attended the marriage of Cana of Galilee, and now He comes again to Cana of Galilee,

• and we have a household set up now in the light of what has preceded, and that, I think, is what the Lord is seeking.

• We have spoken of the importance of households, and it is of the very first importance that, in these last days, there should be households in the full light of the economy, and the full light of what God is securing for Himself.

P.H.H. Are you stressing that in the first sign it was a marriage, which brings before us that behind everything is Christ and the assembly, and then the second sign, it is a house where the father and son is being stressed?

G.R.C. Yes. So it is a house as a ‘going concern’, patterned after God’s house. This is a house as a ‘going concern’ – what an acquisition to the testimony.

• This man begins as a courtier, and addresses the Lord as a courtier, in verse 49; but in verse 50 he is called a man, “And the man believed the word which Jesus said to him”; he is getting purified;

• and finally, in verse 53, he is called the father. And the child becomes a son. So there is development, and purification enters into the whole matter. There is the purifying word of the Lord.

• The courtier would have expected Him to go down to his house, as he asked Him to, but the Lord tests him; He says, “Go”. He takes no account of his courtiership, He just says “Go, thy son lives”.

• And it says of him “And the man believed the word which Jesus said to him, and went his way”. He has dropped his courtiership, he is just the man who believed the word of Jesus.

• He went down to his house, and then it says “The father therefore knew that it was in that hour in which Jesus said to him, thy son lives; and he believed, himself and his whole house”. That is a house as a going concern in the testimony, purified.

P.B. He believed today, and he had confirmation tomorrow. It says in verse 52 “Yesterday at the seventh hour”. Are not we often tested as to that, the genuineness of our believing?

G.R.C. Yes. We are tested in household conditions often, we are tested by our children, but it is all to bring about a house established as a going concern in the testimony.

• These exercises are to purify us householdly. Our child may sicken spiritually, and be in danger of dying, but it is to help to purify the house, that it might be a going concern in the testimony.

L.A.C. Are we to understand that this truth of purification rids us of rivalry? There are these rival religious systems, “this mountain”, and “Jerusalem”.

• Do we finish on the understanding that there is to be no rival to Christ? He becomes the Supreme One in our hearts?

G.R.C. That is very fine. It would end household rivalry. The man comes to the Lord as a courtier, but finally he is a father.

P.L. With a living son! Will he now operate in this wonderful economy under the hand of the One to whom the Father has committed all things?

• It is a fine word for the living continuation of things in affection, “thy son”. I was thinking of Timothy. What a household Paul had in that way for the testimony!