The consideration of Christ, as presented in these chapters, will involve seeking help on travail, as seen in the woman, with a view to the male son being brought forth;

• and also on the marriage of the Lamb, because those who form the wife constitute the armies.

• We should notice that the setting of both scriptures is one of conflict and warfare, the Lord being finally seen as the great Warrior.

• The bringing forth of the male son is in a setting of conflict; then there is war in heaven; and then a retrospective view of the present conflict in the celebration in heaven –
  • “they have overcome him”, it says, “by reason of the blood of the Lamb, and by reason of the word of their testimony, and have not loved their life even unto death”, Revelation 12: 11.

• It will no doubt apply to others after we have gone, but it is also a retrospective view of the conflict of our dispensation, which has its own character.

• Then in chapter 19 the warfare is brought to finality. It says in verse 20, as to the beast and the false prophet,
  • “Alive were both cast into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone”.

Ques. Do you think, going back to chapters 1 and 4, that the voice as of a trumpet – Revelation 1: 10 and 4: 1 – has in mind the assembling of all that is faithful to God in relation to this conflict?

• Is there not somewhat a militant idea in the voice as of a trumpet, as an assembling note for every faithful believer?

G.R.C. So that, while the voice was heard by the bondman, John, you would think that that trumpet voice should sound in the hearts of all the bondmen?

Rem. I would think that in being passed on by John it does not lose that character. It reaches the saints in the character in which he heard it.

G.R.C. So you think it gives character to the book, as mobilising the bondmen for the conflict?

Rem. That was what I wondered.

Ques. Does John in this book justify the name given to him and his brother by the Lord – Boanerges, meaning

• “Sons of thunder”, Mark 3: 17?

• Is thunder like heaven asserting its rights to the earth?

G.R.C. Yes. It is remarkable that the one thing which he was not to write was the voice of the seven thunders. Revelation 10: 4. Why do you think that was?

Ques. Is there not something inscrutable in all God’s ways?

Ques. Does the prominence of heaven connect at all with Deborah’s song –

• “From heaven was the fight”, Judges 5: 20?

G.R.C. Quite so. Our passage begins,

• “A great sign was seen in the heaven”.

• We have heaven’s view of the vessel of testimony, the woman, primarily referring to Israel according to God’s mind. What thoughts He has as to Israel! –
  • “a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars”.

• But then she is viewed as being with child, and in travail, and in pain to bring forth, because the great thing in view is the male Son.

• The woman is portrayed in her glory and dignity according to God’s mind and purpose – not according to the actual state of Israel, of course; but then our attention is focussed upon the Child.

Ques. What is the force of the expression, “a male son”?

G.R.C. Does it not stress the necessity for what is suggested in the male? The Old Testament speaks of the males, both in the offerings and in those who appeared before God.

• It was not that the women did not go up to the feasts, as we know, but the stress was upon the fact that all the males were to go up.
  • Sonship is also stressed – a male Son.

• I think the point is the One who is suited to be caught up to God and to His throne.

• That is, what is in mind is the Priest and the King. It is the Son who is the Priest, as it says in Hebrews 7: 28,
  • “A Son perfected for ever”.

• But the stress here is on the official glory of Christ – His worthiness to fill out the office of Priest and King.

Ques. Is that why Zechariah is privileged to bring that combination forward in history when the remnant was at a low ebb publicly?

G.R.C. Do you mean where he speaks of him being a priest upon his throne Zechariah 6: 13?

Ques. Yes. Do you think that the prophetic side of the matter is one thing, but the travailing to bring forth is quite another?

G.R.C. “Caught up to God” is the priest, “and to his throne” is the king;

• and it is those features, I believe, which the Spirit of God would exercise us about.

• As we know, while the male Son primarily is Christ, it includes the saints of this dispensation. This is the nearest reference to the rapture in this book.
  • “Her child was caught up to God and to his throne”, verse 5,

• and in that catching up we have to think not only of Christ going up, but of all who are His – those whom Paul would speak of as His body.

Ques. Would the fact that the saints of this dispensation are included be confirmed by the word to Thyatira, where it says of him that overcomes,

• “To him will I give authority over the nations, and he shall shepherd them with an iron rod”, Revelation 2: 26-27?

G.R.C. The overcomer is to shepherd the nations with an iron rod. As you say, it confirms that the saints are associated with Christ in this matter.

Ques. Is the figure of travail used to emphasize what is actually being formed in the saints at the present time – as to their understanding of the place that Christ has, and is to occupy?

• Later the remnant of Israel will begin to see that the One they rejected is the One who belongs to heaven, and has taken His rightful place; and it will affect their testimony.

G.R.C. The travailing to bring forth is a very important matter. While the woman represents Israel,

• the travail is continued throughout our dispensation in the assembly as the Israel of God – the Jerusalem above, according to Galatians.

• Paul travailed again in birth that Christ might be formed in them, Galatians 4: 19, and this travail is to go on with a view to the male son being formed in the saints.

• We see the idea perfectly set out in Christ, but there is to be formation by the Spirit in the saints which gives them ability to be fully for God,
  • at the present time in the testimony, and in the future time in the public position – to be fully for God in priestly and royal dignity.

Rem. So that there is something definitely arrived at.

Ques. Would this be parallel with John 16?

• “Again a little while and ye shall see me”, verse 16;

• and then in verse 21 you get the thought that a woman, when she gives birth to a child,
  • “has grief because her hour has come; but when the child is born, she no longer remembers the trouble, on account of the joy that a man has been born into the world”.

• Then the chapter finishes with,
  • “In the world ye have tribulation; but be of good courage: I have overcome the world”, verse 33.

G.R.C. That is a good scripture to bring forward. That time was the time of travail for the disciples; and, if there is to be any formation of Christ in us, it involves travail. He says,

• “Again … ye shall see me”.

• They were to know Christ after the flesh no more, and that involved travail.

• They were to apprehend Him as a Man born into the world, and that is God’s world.

• We see Him risen and ascended as the Centre of God’s world – the Firstborn from the dead. He is referred to in this book as,
  • “the firstborn from the dead” Revelation 1: 5

• – a Man born into the world.

• The Man who is the Centre of God’s world has been caught up to God and to His throne.

• The first thing is to apprehend Christ in that character; and then, as we take up the exercise, it will lead to formation in our souls.

Ques. Why is it, “her child” here?

G.R.C. It gives credit to the woman and her exercises. It would stress that this cannot be brought about without pain and travail on the part of the woman. So God says it is her child.

Ques. I suppose travail involves hard work and suffering. Is that because it means the displacement of the first man inwardly, in order that what is of Christ might come into full expression?

G.R.C. I think so. John 16 involves that even Christ after the flesh is known no more, and that is a solemn thing to face. Everything connected with man after the flesh is superseded.

Ques. Would it be not only the sinful side of things but the natural order?

G.R.C. Exactly, because with Christ after the flesh there was no sin; but even Christ after the flesh we know no more.

• The acceptance of this involves travail. It involves the death lesson really – to pass over in our spirits into God’s world; so that a Man is born into the world in our apprehension.

• The male Son is there as viewed in Christ; but then the saints are to be brought into accord with Him, so that
  • all who belong to God’s world – Christ and all who are of Him – are translated to heaven.

Ques. Do we learn to move from Benoni to Benjamin in that way? It went hard with Rachel; there was deep suffering, but she was encouraged; and out of all that came Benjamin, the son of the right hand.

G.R.C. That is very good. The Lord says in John 16,

• “ye will be grieved”,

• but then the result is that we apprehend Christ as the Centre of God’s world.

Rem. Travail in Romans 8 is linked with the creation, although we also are said to groan.

• But when the Lord applies the principle in John 16, he says, “Ye …”.

• From the Romans 8 viewpoint, the idea is in our hearts, and we are waiting conformity to it in sonship.

• But, in John 16, with the absence of the Lord imminently before the disciples, it was a matter of grief;
  • but He was showing them that, with the incoming of the Spirit, they would have joy in relation to Himself as the Man born into the world.

G.R.C. I think so. And so when it comes to the saints travailing, the idea of the woman enters into it, and it is in a setting of great danger.

• The dragon stood before the woman, in order that when she brought forth he might devour her child. All is in the presence of the greatest opposition.

Ques. Travail has the thought of propagating love’s ideal, has it not?

G.R.C. Exactly.

Ques. In Psalm 2, Jehovah says,

• “I have anointed my king – Thou art my Son; I this day have begotten thee”, Psalm 2: 6-7.

• It is in answer to the tumultuous raging of the nations. Ought we to be concerned as to the nations, and the need for a male son in connection with what is going on in the earth?

G.R.C. I think that is the bearing of this chapter. It is a question of the Priest and King, and of the saints functioning as a royal priesthood, as formed after Christ;

• so that we are able to stand here, in royal dignity, and priestly feeling, maintaining the rights of God in testimony, before the highest authorities if necessary.

• The final thing is, as we noticed, that the child shall shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and the promise to Thyatira shows our part in that.

• We are soon to have a part in dealing thus with the nations as a whole.

• But the present thing is that we bear testimony. So it says in verse 11, referring retrospectively to the present time,
  • “They have overcome him by reason of the blood of the Lamb, and by reason of the word of their testimony”.

• Now that requires the royal priesthood at the present time. It is the royal priesthood who are qualified to wield the sword of the Spirit – the word of their testimony.

Ques. It says, “Upon her head a crown of twelve stars”.

• Is her travailing in relation to the rights of Christ as represented in the twelve stars?

G.R.C. She is “clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars”,

• so that she is concerned that the complete rights of Christ – every feature of His authority – might be held here inviolate in testimony.

Ques. Supreme authority in the sun, and delegated authority in the moon – what is vested in the assembly, do you think?

G.R.C. Quite so. And upon her head a crown of twelve stars. The dragon has ten horns. He never reaches the number twelve;

• but in divine administration the number twelve is complete.

Ques. What about the four dimensions in Ephesians 3? Is there a suggestion of travail with Paul as he bows his knees to the Father in relation to the saints?

G.R.C. He was in very deep exercise, was he not?

• One has been thinking of that passage in regard to these readings, desiring that the Father would come into the matter which we are engaged with.

• The Father would strengthen us, according to the riches of His glory, with might in the inner man,
  • “that the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts”, Ephesians 3: 16-17.

• It is the Father’s desire and purpose that the assembly should apprehend Christ, and hold Him in her heart in every feature of His glory.

Rem. It says, “That ye may be fully able to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge”, Ephesians 3: 18-19.

G.R.C. And the love of the Christ runs through this book, does it not?

• “To him who loves us”, it begins; and the final word is, “I Jesus”, Revelation 1: 5; 22: 16.

• The Person we have been considering, so infinitely great and glorious, comes to us and says, “I Jesus”. It is love which surpasses knowledge!

Ques. The challenge is met on earth by the male Son being born on the earth;

• but then He is caught up to heaven, remains in heaven for a while;

• and then, in chapter 19, He comes forth to deal with things on the earth again.

• Then the saints are formed on the earth, taken up to heaven at the rapture, and come out to deal with the earth again.

• What is the reason for these moves, first on earth, then in heaven, and then on the earth again?

G.R.C. Would not the time of travail and formation and bringing forth be while the saints are on earth?

• Then, as you say, we are caught up to heaven; certain adjustments take place; the marriage of the Lamb takes place; and then we come forth with Him as the armies.

• But now is the time for formation.

Ques. Would the thought be that everything must be maintained testimonially in suffering grace here, the ground thus held for the coming Heir until we come forth with Him in glory?

• It is the same vessel which has maintained His rights as absent, is it not?

G.R.C. Quite so. So she is the bride, the Lamb’s wife. Those who form that vessel have overcome in their period of conflict

• by reason of the blood of the Lamb, and by reason of the word of their testimony, and have not loved their life unto death.

• There is the present conflict of its own peculiar nature; then, as you say, the saints are caught up out of the sphere of conflict,
  • and then the conflict is handed to others, and takes on a different character, because the dragon is cast down to earth.

• But the peculiar nature of our conflict is while the dragon is still in heaven, and he is there as the accuser of the brethren. In verse 9 he is given his full name –
  • “the great dragon … the ancient serpent, he who is called Devil and Satan, he who deceives”

• – but he is cast out; and in verse 10 it says,
  • “the accuser of our brethren has been cast out, who accused them before our God day and night”.

• So it is a day and night matter; the anti-priest is there accusing the brethren day and night; and we are to maintain continuous intercession.
  • We are never to be among the accusers of the brethren – we are on the enemy’s side if we are – and we are to be here in priestly intercession and in royal ability to sustain the testimony.

Ques. Would you say that his manifest exposure comes before all in verse 9 of chapter 12, in his true character publicly; but we are not ignorant of his devices?

• Is he morally discerned in his movements by those who thus travail?

G.R.C. So that whether as the serpent, or as the Devil, or as Satan, or as the deceiver, we are not ignorant of his devices.

Ques. Paul calls him by different names, does he not?

G.R.C. Quite so. He says,

• as the serpent deceived Eve by his craft”, 2 Corinthians 11: 3.

• The word “Devil” means accuser; that would link with verse 10,
  • “the accuser of our brethren”;

• and the word Satan means the adversary.

Ques. Is it remarkable, in the reference which Paul makes to the serpent, and in the original allusion to him, that the travailing sex is before us, and the thought of the serpent is first in this description?

• But is not Satan more connected in scripture with being peculiarly adverse to sonship; and that is the last description of him here.

G.R.C. And as the Dragon, which is another view, he would devour the male son.

Rem. In Job 2 the sons of God presented themselves, and then Satan presented himself before Jehovah in opposition.

G.R.C. Quite so. And it is clear that the work of the serpent in Genesis resulted in the need of travail.

• The serpent having done his work, if there is to be anything for God henceforth, it can only be through travail.

• But now, in chapter 19, we should touch briefly on the marriage of the Lamb.

• Our objective is the Lord coming out later in the chapter; but I thought the marriage of the Lamb would bear on a question raised yesterday afternoon,
  • as to whether the character of praise set out in chapter 5 should enter into our service in the morning meeting. I think it should.

• We may not use the title “The Lamb”. We are free to do so, of course, but it is a symbolic title of the Lord, and we would normally call Him Lord Jesus.

• But I believe in connection with the cup –
  • “This cup is the new covenant in my blood”, Luke 22: 20

• – there is room for a very fervent vocal response to Christ as the One who has redeemed to God by His blood out of every tribe and tongue and kindred and nation.

• The scope of redemption should be before us; not simply how it affects us, but how it affects God – that He has redeemed to God by His blood.

• The whole scope of the matter would lead us to prostration before Him.

Rem. “Redemption’s glory shed”, the hymn says.

G.R.C. And this passage shows how the wifely side would closely link with that; for the word is,

• “Let us rejoice and exult, and give him glory; for the marriage of the Lamb is come”.

• This, of course, refers to the public celebration of the marriage after the church is translated, but then Paul’s doctrine shows that the union of Christ and the church is to be entered into also at the present time.

• It is in mystery at present. It is not a mystery in Revelation 19, when the marriage is celebrated; but there is the mystery of Christ and the assembly now –
  • “Because of this a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall be united to his wife … This mystery is great”, Ephesians
    5: 31-32.

• At the present time the union of Christ and the assembly is in mystery; but I am thinking of the moral link between this and chapter 5.

• Surely, if the Lamb has His place, and we are led into a state of prostration of soul before Him, as we think of the vastness of the scope of what He has effected at such a cost, it is only a short step to wifely relations.

Rem. We really approach the Supper from the suffering angle, because it is deposited in the assembly in the scene of treachery –

• “In the night in which he was delivered up”, 1 Corinthians 11: 23.

G.R.C. So the word is,

• “I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife”, Revelation 21: 9;

• and here, “the marriage of the Lamb is come”.

• How we rejoice to think that He has a wife! How worthy He is to have a wife!

Ques. Does the marriage of the Lamb involve the presentation of the assembly to Christ?

G.R.C. I think it would coincide with that –

• “that he might present the assembly to himself”, Ephesians 5 :27,

• although each scripture has its own setting, so that the view here is somewhat different. It says here,
  • “His wife has made herself ready”;

• it is not the Lord’s service, as in Ephesians 5, but His wife has made herself ready; and then there is what is given to her, as though God comes into the matter.
  • “It was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and pure; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints”.

• It is a most important thing, even in human affairs, that a wife, who is to be the wife of a very highly-placed man, should be in every way suited to the position; she would need to be concerned about it, as to being ready.

• And, if we see the way the Lord presents Himself in the book of Revelation, the glory and majesty in which He is presented, what a concern there should be!

Ques. Would there be some idea of it in the book of Esther, where it speaks of six months with oil of myrrh, and six months with spices? Esther 2: 12.

G.R.C. That is a majestic setting also. Each scripture, of course, has its own setting.

Ques. Would you say a word as to what was granted her? Is that something additional to making herself ready?

G.R.C. The two things seem to be blended, do they not? She has made herself ready; but then what was granted to her was,

• “that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and pure; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints”.

• So that, on the one hand it is the result of the exercises of the saints and their righteousnesses, but then it is given to her to be clothed in it.

Ques. Does not Genesis 24 bear on this? Rebecca took what was given to her; and then finally she took the veil, and covered herself.

G.R.C. Each scripture has its own setting; and there it is largely what the servant did.

• That passage is one which confirms that the wifely side of things has a present application, because she is led into Sarah’s tent. It is the present aspect of the marriage, connected with Sarah’s tent – a provisional position.

• In our dispensation the assembly fills out the place which Israel forfeited in rejecting its Messiah.

• In the eternal setting, the assembly is seen prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; and it does not say there that she has made herself ready.

• I think we have to take each scripture in its own setting; and the one we are now considering stands in its own beauty.

Ques. Does it not become a peculiar challenge to us, as to how much we are allied to this feature of making herself ready?

G.R.C. Proverbs 31 links with that; the testing is to bring out the righteousnesses of saints, is it not?

Rem. Yes. Mr. Darby gave a very short but powerful definition of the word “royalty”.

• He said it was effective power in action; and is that not bound up with making herself ready? Things are done, and they are done efficiently and effectively.

G.R.C. Very good. And that also bears on the armies, because, as to the wife, it says it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and pure;

• and then, with regard to the armies, in verse 14 it says,
  • “And the armies which are in the heaven followed him upon white horses, clad in white, pure, fine linen”.

• So that the wifely garments are quite suited for military service; we do not need to change our apparel.

Rem. Say a little more about that.

G.R.C. In the Song of Songs the spouse does not need to change her apparel; she is,

• “Terrible as troops with banners”, chapter 6: 4.

Rem. And when he describes her appreciatively in detail, in the Song of Songs, it is always in the beauty of her military array, showing what military prowess in the assembly means to the heart of Christ now.

G.R.C. He delights in a militant wife.

Rem. As David in Abigail.

G.R.C. And so this setting of the Lord is one which should engage our affections. It is a marvellous presentation!

• “I saw the heaven opened, and behold, a white horse”;

• that is, military operations are now in mind; and so the white horse is called attention to first, and the armies follow on white horses. Are we equal to riding on white horses?

Ques. Would this be the result of the exercise of overcoming?

G.R.C. It would. It is the exercise of overcoming which brings about the righteousnesses of the saints, and fits us for riding, in the coming day, upon white horses.

• But it should mark us in principle now. The Lord is upon a white horse – it says,
  • “One sitting on it, called Faithful and True, and he judges and makes war in righteousness. And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head many diadems”.

• What a description that is! How it delights the lovers of Christ! No one else is spoken of in such a way –
  • “Upon his head many diadems, having a name written which no one knows but himself”.

• And so, while He is called “Faithful and True”, the first name which comes before us is a name written.

• It is written, so that we can see the writing, but it is to impress us that there is something there which is beyond us; there is a name written,
  • “which no one knows but himself”. And then it says,

  • “He is clothed with a garment dipped in blood, and his name is called …“;

• this would be, I suppose, the way He becomes known through experience –
  • “His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in the heaven followed him upon white horses, clad in white, pure, fine linen. And out of his mouth goes a sharp two-edged sword, that with it he might smite the nations”.

  • And then, in verse 16, it says, “And he has upon his garment, and upon his thigh, a name written” – this is another name written.

• “The Word of God” is a name by which He is called; but there are two names written, one of which no one knows but Himself, and the other,
  • “A name written, King of kings, and Lord of lords”.

• What a marvellous presentation this is of Christ! Every lover of Christ exults in this.

Rem. What power this would give in suffering here – the apprehension of the Lord in this way, as King of kings and Lord of lords!

G.R.C. What an honour to be the bondman of such a one!

Ques. One of the features which marked the great warrior Paul, in conflict, was pureness.

• Would that be purity of motive and association in keeping with Christ’s garments according to Mark’s gospel?

G.R.C. We would become casualties otherwise, but there is no thought of a casualty in this army.

Ques. Why is the name written on the thigh?

Ques. Is it the strength to support and go through, do you think?

Ques. In Daniel 4: 35 it says,

• “He doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens”.

• Does that refer back to bondmanship in those who have part in it?

G.R.C. It does. The centurion said, as to the army,

• “I say to this one, Go, and he goes; and to another, Come, and he comes”, Matthew 8: 9.

Ques. Referring to the cup and the Lord’s Supper, is it not significant that in 1 Corinthians 11 it is not recorded that the Lord’s blood is poured out for us?

G.R.C. I think that bears on what we have said about chapter 5 of this book. It is left open in Corinthians –

• “This cup is the new covenant in my blood”

• for us to have as wide a view of the glory of the great Redeemer as possible. It is, “My blood”, and all that it has laid the basis for.

But there is one more point in this passage which we ought to refer to.

• “Out of his mouth goes a sharp two-edged sword”.

• It is the only weapon the Lord uses apparently. And
  • “the sword of the Spirit, which is God’s word,”

• is the only weapon we need.

• Once the word of God in power is brought into the minds of men, the whole world-system will collapse;
  • and every difficulty among believers would collapse, if you could only bring the word of God in power into their minds.

• And so one great point in our conflict is that we should seek help to be more efficient in the use of the sword of the Spirit, because the conflict is in the minds of men. It is not with armies and navies!

• The real conflict is in the minds of men; and if you could get men on earth at the present time to be governed truly by the word of God, the conflict would be over.

Rem. In the end of verse 9 it says,

• “These are the true words of God”.

G.R.C. Quite so; then here,

• “His name is called The Word of God”.

• The Lord Jesus is the very expression of the mind of God; but then from His mouth there is the application of it, a sharp two-edged sword going forth, and that will bring down everything.

• The word of God in power will bring down every hostile force in this world, in the minds of men, and thus will settle everything. Once the minds of men are governed by the word of God, the conflict is over.

• That is where we need help at the present time, because Satan is always attacking to get something that is not God’s mind into the minds of the saints.

Rem. The only aggressive weapon in the armour in Ephesians is the sword, and it was the Lord’s only weapon in the temptation.

All along there has been opposition to the testimony, and we can speak of armed opposition during the present period; not in the sense of physical armaments;

• but the universal lords of this darkness, the spiritual powers of wickedness in the heavenlies, arm themselves with every conceivable weapon; and they furnish their troops
  • – that is, men and women on earth who are under their power –

• with every conceivable weapon, whereby to prevent God having His rights in the minds, consciences and hearts of the saints, and in the minds and consciences of men generally.

So that we ourselves are in a period where conflict, and judicial conflict, has to go on; but chapter 19 shows how the matter is brought to finality. It says in verse 20,

• “And the beast was taken, and the false prophet that was with him … Alive were both cast into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone; and the rest were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which goes out of his mouth”.

• Based upon that complete victory, and the chaining of Satan in the beginning of chapter 20, and his confinement to the abyss, we have a different kind of judgment.

• John says, in verse 4, “I saw thrones”; this is sessional judgment. We speak of the sessions when the judges sit. Once armed opposition is over, sessional judgment can be instituted; and we also have part in this at the present time.

• Conflict concerning the truth may arise in localities, and the time may come when the victory is won; but there may still be sessional judgment required to deal with those responsible for, or involved in, the insurrection. So in verse 4 it says,
  • “I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them”.

• That does not mean that they were being judged; it means that judgment was put into their hands. They were sitting on thrones, and they were to pronounce the judgment.

• This may refer primarily to those who follow on after the assembly is translated; they are certainly included, for it speaks of the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God.

• Evidently such will sit on thrones, and have part in judging; but those we have seen earlier on thrones – the crowned elders – represent the saints of our dispensation; and Paul says of these,
  • “Do ye not then know that the saints shall judge the world?” and

  • “Do and know that we shall judge angels?”, 1 Corinthians 6: 2-3.

• So according to chapter 20: 4 there are thrones, and those who sit on them, and they are there to administer judgment. It says in Daniel 7: 22,
  • “the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most high places”;

• that is, judgment was put into their hands. And it says of such that they are priests of God and of Christ and they reign with Him a thousand years; that is, they are priests and kings.

• But, in verse 11, we have the great final session; and we do not read of the saints in that. It says,
  • “I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled, and place was not found for them”.

• We come here to finality, and we are in the presence of the glory of the great white throne, and Him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled.

• Think of the majesty of the One who sits upon this throne! –
  • “The earth and the heaven fled, and place was not found for them”.

• The judgment which is administered from that throne clears the way morally for a new heaven and a new earth. No loose ends are left; no moral issue remains unsettled.
  • “I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea exists no more”, chapter 21: 1.

• And then finally, in verse 5, we have another reference to Him that sat on the throne,
  • “He that sat on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new”, and so on.

• I thought we might get an impression of what sessional judgment means, and the saints having part in it in their own place;
  • and then the glory connected with this great final session;

• and the glory of the One presented; and the way, when it is over, in which there is the introduction of the new heaven and the new earth, and He can say,
  • “It is done”.

Ques. Does Paul have to do with both kinds of judgment in 2 Corinthians? He refers to,

• “the arms of our warfare”, chapter 10: 4.

• I wondered if that linked with judicial warfare.

• Then in chapter 13 he refers to coming the third time, and what will have to take place with those who have sinned and have not repented, involving what is sessional.

G.R.C. Those passages help. As you say, in 2 Corinthians 10 he is referring to the arms of their warfare;

• this would no doubt be judicial in character, for it is to overthrow strongholds in the minds of men.

• That is where the enemy’s strongholds are; and sometimes, alas, the enemy can get a stronghold in the mind of a believer. It says,
  • “overthrowing reasonings and every high thing that lifts itself up against the knowledge of God”.

• But then, as you say, in chapter 13 of that epistle he has sessional judgment in mind. He says,
  • “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every matter be established. I have declared beforehand, and I say beforehand as present the second time, and now absent, to those that have sinned before, and to all the rest, that if I come again I will not spare”.

Ques. Sometimes we hear the expression, ‘The right thing was done in the wrong way’.

• Would this matter of judging and making war in righteousness show that everything, whether a matter of judgment or conflict, must be maintained in righteousness?

• We should do the right thing and in the right way.

G.R.C. That is very important.

• “He judges and makes war in righteousness”.

• Men say that anything is fair in war, but that is not so in divine warfare.

• If we do not know how to make war in righteousness, we shall lose the battle.

Ques. Would the apostle, speaking of,

• “the odour of his knowledge through us in every place”, 2 Corinthians 2: 14, confirm that?

• “An odour from death unto death, but to the others an odour from life unto life”.

• I was thinking of doing things in a right way, and thus of the odour which attached to Paul and those with him.

• They would do the right thing in the right way; so that, whether souls were saved, or whether souls were lost, there was an odour to God.

G.R.C. “A sweet odour of Christ to God in the saved and in those that perish”, 2 Corinthians 2: 15.

• So that, even in the preaching of the gospel would you not say there is a judicial aspect?

Rem. “Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we persuade men”, 2 Corinthians 5: 11.

Ques. And should not the throne come more into the preaching in these last days?

• I was noticing, in the quotation the Lord makes in Luke 4, that in two cases the word “preach” is connected with the throne,

• and in one case it is connected with the needs of the poor. The Lord says, in reading,
  • “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach” – that word is evangelize – “glad tidings to the poor”;

• that is, the needs of men are in mind. Then He goes on,
  • “to preach to captives deliverance”,

• and that word is the word connected with the throne.
  • And “to preach the acceptable year of the Lord”

• is also connected with the throne in Isaiah 61.

• And I wondered whether Paul, in his closing letter, the second epistle to Timothy, is not very emphatic in that matter. He says,
  • “Proclaim the word; be urgent in season and out of season”, 2 Timothy 4: 2,

• involving the maintenance of the rights of the throne amongst men.

G.R.C. And so in both of the epistles to Timothy he speaks of himself as a herald, does he not?

Rem. Yes. The word, “Proclaim” is the same word as herald, but as a verb.

G.R.C. That is interesting. A herald, one would judge, is connected with the throne. His message is a proclamation from the throne. And that is how Paul regarded himself,

• “a herald and apostle … a teacher of the nations”, 1 Timothy 2: 7, and 2 Timothy 1: 11.

Ques. And does it not become attractive’? Isaiah saw the Lord – Adonai – sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, Isaiah 6: 1, and, as the rights of that throne were upheld, Isaiah comes into the greatest blessing.

G.R.C. Very good. So he says,

• “Here am I, send me”. Isaiah 6: 8.

• He was sent from the throne.

Ques. Would it be helpful if you told us what the throne sets forth? Is it a moral idea – the holiness and majesty of God?

G.R.C. God says of Himself,

• “I am a great King”, Malachi 1: 14.

• Even in human affairs we get some idea of a throne; and there are rights connected with a human throne which cannot be trifled with without dire consequences to those who do so.

• But God is the great King; and it says twice in scripture that righteousness and judgment are the foundation of His throne Psalm 89: 14; and 97: 2.

• But I believe what has been said would help us in going out with the gospel.

• If we are really sent, we go forth as sent from the throne; we have a message from the throne, and woe to those who reject it.

Ques. Is that not the theme of the speaking on Mars Hill?

G.R.C. Paul speaks there of the commandment:

• “God … now enjoins men that they shall all everywhere repent”, Acts 17: 30.

• That is really a command from the throne.

Rem. And it is, “Because he has set a day …”.

G.R.C. Quite so. “He has set a day in which he is going to judge the habitable earth in righteousness”.

Ques. What would you say as to grace in connection with the throne? Do we not understand that grace is on the throne today?

G.R.C. Quite so. Grace reigns through righteousness; grace is enthroned, and that is what we proclaim in the gospel.

• But those who despise grace come in for the severest judgment. You cannot trifle with the throne; if the throne is sending out a message of grace it is nevertheless a command.
  • “God … enjoins men that they shall all everywhere repent”.

Ques. Grace does not minimise the dignity which is right and proper to the preaching. Does it not rather set out the sovereignty of God in all its grandeur?

G.R.C. I think it does; and the penalty for refusing the commands of grace is a fearful one, because God is presenting His best to men, but in the way of command.

• The gospel is preached,
  • “for obedience of faith among all the nations”, Romans 1: 5.

Ques. Do we connect the titles in 1 Timothy with what you are saying? I was thinking of the expression,

• “the King of the ages”, 1 Timothy 1: 17,

  and then,

• “The blessed and only Ruler”, 1 Timothy 6: 15.

G.R.C. I would, and it links with the way he opens the epistle –

• “Paul, apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the command of God our Saviour”.

• Then, after saying that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, he says,
  • “Now to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only God, honour and glory to the ages of ages”.

• If we refuse the gospel message, we dishonour that God.

Ques. Is that why you connected the thought of penalty with disobeying the gospel, according to 2 Thessalonians 1: 8-9?

G.R.C. It says,

• “Who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might”.

• The word penalty is used.

Ques. And is God’s glory seen in that paying of the penalty? Following the reference to the throne in Psalm 97, it says,

• “A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his adversaries round about”. And then in verse 6,

• “The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the peoples see his glory”.

G.R.C. There is glory connected with what is judicial. Of course, what Paul is occupied with specially in Timothy is the glad tidings of the glory of the blessed God –

• that is, God happy in the administration of His grace, and its results.

• That is what God delights in, and in that His glory shines in its fulness;
  • but nevertheless there is a glory connected with what is judicial.

Ques. Could we have a word on sessional judgment, as associated with the thrones and those who sat upon them? Is there a moral connection with the great white throne?

G.R.C. Both of these sessional scenes of judgment are consequent upon all armed opposition being subdued.

• The military aspect of judgment deals with armed opposition; and, as I say, we have to think of spiritual arms – not physical; and spiritual arms are exceedingly powerful.

• You can understand that, while there is armed opposition, there is not a state of rest for deliberative judgment.

• Paul says that when he came to Corinth he would hear everything in the mouth of two or three witnesses; that is the idea of sessional judgment.

• It is remarkable to think that the saints are to have part in that throughout the millennial day – even those who lose their lives for the testimony after we have gone. What great dignity!

Ques. Did the putting down of armed opposition culminate at the end of David’s reign, thus leaving the sessional judgment to Solomon in conditions of peace?

G.R.C. Generally speaking, David had to meet armed opposition, and his judicial dealings were linked with that; but, as you say,

• the result of David subduing the enemies was that sessional judgment comes into view at the beginning of Solomon’s reign.

Rem. In Psalm 122, in connection with Jerusalem built as a city which is compact together, it says,

• “There are set thrones for judgment, the thrones of the house of David”, verse 5;

• and in the following section of the Psalm it refers to peace and prosperity in the palaces.

G.R.C. So that while Solomon’s reign began with sessional judgment, yet it had to be maintained throughout the reign.

• “He made the porch for the throne where he judged, the porch of judgment”, 1 Kings 7: 7.

• And the idea is carried forward into the New Testament – Solomon’s porch, Acts 5: 12.

Ques. Would the thought of sonship underlie that? In the end of Matthew 17 the Lord says,

• “Me and thee”;

• and, of course, at the beginning of that chapter the Son is set out in His glorious Person on the mount.

• And then we have what is sessional assembly-wise in chapter 18.

G.R.C. That is very helpful.

Ques. Does not the sessional judgment really deal with the underlying condition which brought about the conflict?

G.R.C. That is the first thing which has to be dealt with.

Ques. Involving persons, such as Joab and Shimei?

G.R.C. Yes. Solomon had to deal with such immediately.

Rem. You made the remark that, in sessional judgment, we may have to act as regards those who have caused the insurrection.

G.R.C. They may be dealt with in the course of the military operations.

• In actual fact, in what we are reading here the beast and the false prophet were taken, and that closed the conflict. They were taken, and
  • “Alive were both cast into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone”.

• So that in this final conflict, the ringleaders, as we may say, are dealt with summarily; their case does not await the session.

• Even in human affairs, when military operations are on, people may be dealt with summarily; their offences do not need proving.

• It does not need a session to prove their guilt, because they are red-handed in their crime and rebellion.

• But then there are always others involved whose offences are not so clear, and those cases have to be considered in sessional judgment.

• Those Solomon dealt with had been engaged in the more subtle side of the opposition.

Ques. May we take it that even in our day we can count upon the Lord Himself to act on these lines?

• It is not a matter in which we have to move without Him; but is it not the case that
  • we ought to discern when and how the Lord is bringing the conflict to an issue, and also how He is raising matters with persons?

G.R.C. I think so, especially in the military side of it. The Lord is the great military Leader.

• We are to be strong in the Lord, and in the might of His strength. Ephesians 6: 10.

• He would lead, and, if in the conflict He exposes persistent evil and brings those responsible into judgment, we can leave that.

• But then, in the ordinary maintenance of the peace of the realm, as we may say, sessional judgment is necessary.

Ques. In sessional judgment there is the idea of setting things out in order in arriving at a judgment. Is that not to carry everyone?

• We should all be carried by what is right; there should be no question about it.

Ques. Do you get this in Deuteronomy, where much is made of the judges, and matters are reviewed, in their true spiritual bearing, long after they have taken place, in view of adjustment – such as the issue in regard of the golden calf, and other matters?

G.R.C. So would you say that in sessional character we are not always considering specific cases?

• The enthroned elders in chapter 4 suggest the deliberative side, and the living creatures the executive side.

• In sessional judgment are we not to be continually in deliberation as to what has taken place, and the moral principles involved?

• Then by an understanding of the principles which have also underlain earlier conflicts we become intelligent as to the present, do we not? We need to see what underlies defection.

• I believe one of the underlying things is a failure to apprehend the greatness of the Person of Christ.
  • If the Person of Christ is cherished in our hearts in the way He is presented in this book, we shall not turn aside.

• There has been of late some tendency to limit Him to His place in Manhood –
  • to take what one might call a mean advantage of the fact that He has come into Manhood to deny Him the full honours of Deity.

Ques. You mean that those who fall down do not fall out?

G.R.C. That is good. If we fall down in prostration before Him, we shall be preserved.

Ques. As to those referred to at the end of chapter 19, “the rest”, are they still reserved for the final judgment of the great white throne?

G.R.C. Evidently; it does not say they were cast at that time into the lake of fire. We need to approach this section in a spirit of deep reverence.

• “I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it” – John saw Him –

• “from whose face the earth and the heaven fled, and place was not found for them”.

• It is difficult to think of words more expressive of majesty than these – “from whose face the earth and the heaven fled”.

• In the presence of earthly majesty we might feel we are not fitted, and we must hide ourselves, but think of earth and heaven fleeing from the face of this One!

• And I think we should consider the way scripture speaks of the One who sits on the throne – the undefined way in which scripture speaks.

• We noticed in chapter 4, verse 2,
  • “Behold, a throne stood in the heaven, and upon the throne one sitting”.

• He is not defined. And so here it says,
  • “I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it”:

• I think we have to learn something from this.

Ques. What is in your mind in that regard?

G.R.C. I think it is one of the most important ways of apprehending the Lord; but one of the least understood, perhaps.

• He is not presented in any glory that is personal to Himself.

• He speaks elsewhere of His own throne; and if we think of Him thus, we would think of Him as King and Priest, and as Head over all things. But here it is just,
  • “Him that sat on it”.

• No glory personal to Himself is mentioned – nothing to identify Him.

• We know that it must be Him, because God is the invisible God, and whatever is expressed relative to God Himself is expressed in Him.

• We need help to understand the Lord as presented thus, not in any of His personal glories, because that is not the point;
  • the point here is that it is the throne of God, and He is sitting upon the throne as representing God.

• And, of course, He fully represents God because He is God. I do not know that I can make myself very clear.

Rem. I apprehend that, inasmuch as John says that he,

• “saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it”,

• he is not alluding to God in the inscrutability and invisibility of His Being, but he is alluding to Him in some One whom John can see.

G.R.C. So he is alluding to Him in the One who has come into Manhood in order to be the expression of God in every feature which belongs to God.

• But I think it is important to see the place the Lord has on the throne, representing God because He is God,
  • but not as bringing forward anything personal to Himself, for this would detract from the fact that this is the throne of God.

• The Spirit of God is bringing forward nothing personal, nothing that attaches to Him personally as a Man. He is there as simply representing God.

Ques. Would you connect this with John 5: 22?

• “The Father … has given all judgment to the Son”, and

• “because he is Son of man”, verse 27?

G.R.C. I think scriptures such as that enables us to identify who this is;

• but, nevertheless, there seems remarkable skill in the way the Spirit of God presents the matter here. John saw a throne,
  • “and him that sat on it”.

• It is the throne of God. Our attention is not directed to anything personal to Christ; He is there as the One in whom the invisible God is expressed,
  • in whatever aspect He may present Himself whether majesty, judicial glory as here, or any other feature of Himself.

• When it is a question of God; the personal glories of the Son recede.

• It is like the Son being placed in subjection. 1 Corinthians 15: 28. His personal glories are no longer engaging the soul, and so it just says,
  • “and him that sat on it”.

Rem. He is, “the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance” Hebrews 1: 3.

Ques. Would it not be right to say that we must leave this in its own mystery, and bow in the presence of it, because of the way the Spirit presents it? In chapter 1 it is,

• “One like the Son of man”, Revelation 1: 13,

• and judicial habiliments are presented to us.

• In chapter 5 the throne is connected with,
  • “A Lamb standing, as slain,”

• and then acclamations come in.

• We can easily identify Who is being spoken of in those circumstances.

• But here, is it not more a question, not of identification, but of accepting the majesty of the position, in view of the finalising of everything judicially?

G.R.C. Yes, and I wondered if it drew out our affections to the One who sits on the throne,

• that He should be prepared that everything that attaches to Him personally should be out of sight.

• It is a question of God. It links on with the final scene
  • – “God all in all”, 1 Corinthians 15: 28.

Ques. Would the expression, “from whose face the earth and the heaven fled”, be mainly a description of majesty, rather than a statement of fact?

• The earth and heaven fleeing is a statement of fact; but I wondered whether John as writing, “from whose face the earth and the heaven fled” would be describing the majesty and the greatness which he saw.

G.R.C. I think it greatly stresses majesty.

Ques. Is there some link with the “I AM” in John’s gospel?

• In both cases it is asserted in the presence of His enemies, and in the latter case they fall down before Him.

• I am not linking it immediately with this, but is there a kind of foreshadowing?

G.R.C. I think so.

Ques. Would you say that only true bondmen can stay in His presence and see His face, according to Revelation 22: 3-4 –

• “his servants shall serve him, and they shall see his face”?

G.R.C. Quite so. His servants are retained in His presence and see His face. They do not have to flee.

• And I think thus He can be taken account of as the effulgence of God’s glory and the expression of His substance.

• But here, no doubt, the great point is the majesty of the One sitting on the throne, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled.

• The Spirit would give us an impression of the majesty and solemnity of this scene.

• It says in Hebrews 1, verses 10-12,
  • “And, Thou in the beginning, Lord, hast founded the earth, and works of thy hands are the heavens. They shall perish, but thou continuest still; and they all shall grow old as a garment, and as a covering shalt thou roll them up, and they shall be changed; but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail”.

• Created things are viewed there as a garment, and as a covering which He rolls up when it is finished with.

• Here it is a slightly different presentation, for the earth and the heaven fled.

• What is not stated in Hebrews is that, in the folding up of these things – of the heavens and the earth, and the works of His hands – every moral issue is settled. There it says,
  • “They shall be changed; but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail”.

• But the glory of Revelation 20 is that, in the removal of the present heaven and earth, no moral issue is left unsettled.

• Everything is brought to its final settlement at this great assize.

Ques. Would it be right to say that the earth and heaven flee here because they have been stained by sin?

G.R.C. I think that is more Peter’s view of it, where he says,

• “the earth and the works in it shall be burnt up” and,

• “the heavens, being on fire shall be dissolved”, 2 Peter 3: 10-12.

• Here it is the majesty of the Person, and the magnificence of this great session at the great white throne.

• His majesty is so great, and the throne so white and pure, that, in the setting aside of the present heaven and earth no moral issue is left unsolved.

• Every detail is wound up to the eternal glory of God.

Rem. Otherwise you could not have the new heaven and the new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness.

G.R.C. Quite so. It paves the way for the new heaven and the new earth.

Ques. Is that an incentive for us to complete our exercises, and get things cleared up, in view of what is positive?

G.R.C. It is, because we would all like to move on to new creation ground.

• We sing of new creation, and we long to enjoy it, but we cannot do so if moral issues are unsettled.

• It is after this great session, where every moral issue is settled, and evil consigned to its own place, that John says,
  • “I saw a new heaven and a new earth”.

Ques. Would you say that this is the moral consequence of Calvary and what the Lord endured in the forsaking of God?

G.R.C. Is it not exceedingly affecting, as we think of the great white throne and Him that sat on it, to remember that

• the One who sits on it has entered into death and judgment in a way in which no creature could?

• No one of those who are consigned to the lake of fire will ever suffer as He did. It is impossible for a creature to suffer as He did.

Rem. So that what is dealt with here is what is irreconcilable.

G.R.C. Yes. See how deliberative it all is –

• “I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is that of life. And the dead were judged out of the things written in the books according to their works”.

• What a scene it is! The righteous judgment of God!

Rem. And yet there is the book of life, and those written in it.

Ques. Is this the final scene of the reign of Christ, according to 1 Corinthians 15: 26?

• “The last enemy that is annulled is death”.

G.R.C. I think so.

• “Death and hades were cast into the lake of fire”;

• the last enemy is dealt with in sessional judgment.

Ques. Do you contrast the lake of fire, a confined place, with the new heavens and the new earth, a whole universe, a whole expanse, eternity itself, and God all in all?

G.R.C. Quite so. And the lake of fire, as I understand it, remains through all eternity, an eternal witness to the righteous judgment of God – a solemn witness.

Rem. Yes. To use the language of men, it is the curtain dropping, as the whole spiritual drama is worked out to a divine issue and closed up for ever.

G.R.C. And what a divine issue in the new heavens and the new earth!

• ”Behold, I make all things new”.

• It is the same One speaking.

• As we know, the books of the Bible were not divided into chapters by the Spirit of God – it is only a matter of convenience – and thus we have to look at this as one section.
  • “He that sat on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new”.

• It is His first recorded utterance. He sat on the throne, but the persons were judged out of the books. His first word is,
  • “Behold, I make all things new”.

  • “And he says to me …”

• how gracious that He should say this word to His bondman – from off the throne!

• Think of the majesty of the throne, and the Person sitting on it, and yet having a word, as turning to John, for His bondman, close by!

Ques. Do these contrasting settings of the throne help us to see more clearly its eternal stability, on the one hand, and yet the bearing of it at any given point, on the other?

• It is a kind of need from the judicial angle, in the setting of the great white throne; but, in what we are just touching now,
  • the setting is the needs of certain persons – that they might come into the full gain of what is connected with eternity.

G.R.C. How very precious that is! When the One on the throne begins to speak, He says,

• “Behold, I make all things new”;

• and then He says a word to His bondman,
  • “Write, for these words are true and faithful”.

• Think of Him assuring His bondman that the words were true and faithful! How could they be anything else as coming from Him? And then John says,
  • “He said to me, It is done”.

• Think of the majesty of the Person!
  • “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end”.

  • And then He says, “I will give to him that thirsts of the fountain of the water of life freely”.

Rem. So that the power in which everything will be finally solved is morally assured in support of the servant in suffering, before they are solved literally.

Ques. Is not verse 7 very beautiful?

G.R.C. I am glad you referred to that.

• “He that overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be to him God, and he shall be to me son”.

• It is one of the most blessed verses in scripture. It is not here, ‘I will be to him Father’. It is the majestic setting of things –
  • “I will be to him God, and he shall be to me son”.

• That is, he is owned as son in this majestic setting.

Rem. And owned now, as an overcomer