The Lord Jesus as seen
in the Revelation
Ministry by G. R. Cowell
– Memorials: Volume 3

Memorials 3 also included an address at London, less than a month previously, on June 27, 1957. That address,

It is an impressive fact that the whole book is addressed to the assemblies. The Lord Himself says.

• “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies”, chapter 22: 16.

• That does not refer only to the first three chapters, but to the whole of the book; and one’s impression is that
  • the distinctive ways in which the Lord is seen are all needed if our souls are to be so affected that we are recovered to first love.

• The book closes with recovery to first love,
  • “The Spirit and the bride say, Come”.

• The bride is there in line with the Spirit as having apprehended the various ways in which her Beloved has presented Himself.

• And then the book closes with a word from the bondman.

• It is essential that we should be individually recovered to bondmanship if there is to be corporately the true bridal response to Christ.

• Thus the book closes with the bondman saying,
  • “Amen; come, Lord Jesus”.

• Nothing he could desire could compare with the coming of his Lord.

In chapter 1 the great presentation of Christ is in verses 13-16; but then He is also presented in verse 1 as

• Jesus Christ, the recipient of the revelation which God gave to Him;
  • in verse 5 as, “the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth … who loves us, and has washed us from our sins in his blood, and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father”;

  • in verse 7 as coming, “with the clouds, and every eye shall see him”;

  • and in verse 8 we read, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, he who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty”.

• It is God speaking, yet there seems to be no doubt that the actual Speaker is the Son.

• That verse is an example of the way John indefinably blends God and Christ in some of his statements.

Ques. Is that to preserve us as to the oneness of the Deity?

G.R.C. I think so.

Ques. Would you say that there is any significance in that Paul’s first church letter deals with bondman service –

• “to serve a living and true God”, 1 Thessalonians 1: 9?

• That word ‘serve’ is bondman service.

G.R.C. So we have to take account of verse 1,

• “Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to shew to his bondmen what must shortly take place; and he signified it, sending by his angel, to his bondman John”.

• It is a fundamental matter that we should gladly accept the place of bondmanship;

• in fact, one would judge that there is no overcoming apart from it, for at the close of each of the addresses to the assemblies, He says,
  • “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies”.

• The great feature of the Hebrew bondman was that he had an ear, and his ear was bored to the doorpost; and in Psalm 40 it says,
  • “Ears hast thou prepared” or, ‘digged’ “me”.

• So I do not think that an overcomer exists apart from one who recognises himself as the slave of Jesus Christ.

Ques. Has it to do with the ability to receive divine communications and spiritual impressions?

G.R.C. I think so. The Hebrew bondman’s ear would carry the mark of his bondmanship, and would indicate what he had committed himself to in love.

• Applying this to ourselves, we should be marked off in this world as those entirely available for the command of our Lord and Master.

• Of course the relationship of sonship is always there. The Lord Himself says,
  • “that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father has commanded me, thus I do”, John 14: 31.

• The proof of His love for the Father was in His bondmanship, for as the Father commanded Him so He did: His ear was bored in that sense.

Ques. Is an example seen in Simeon in Luke’s gospel? Simeon means hearing, and he says,

• “Lord, now thou lettest thy bondman go, according to thy word, in peace”, Luke 2: 29.

G.R.C. That is an interesting allusion. The man who has the ear to hear what the Spirit is saying to the assemblies is the man who is committed in bondmanship to the Lord.

• His ear, in principle, has been bored, and that would be a public witness to his bondmanship.

• The Lord says as to Himself,
  • “that the world may know that I love the Father”.

• How was the world to know, except by the path of devotion the Lord was on?

• The first reference to responsive love in scripture is the love of the Hebrew bondman.

• You have a father’s love to a son in Abraham, and Isaac’s love to Rebecca; but on the line of response, you have in the Hebrew bondman,
  • “I love my master, my wife, and my children, I will not go free”.

• The Lord was here as the perfect expression of that, but the ear bored means that the world knows something about it.

• The Lord was here in the path of bondmanship, though He were Son.

Rem. In Deuteronomy 15: 16, where the language is a little different, it says,

• “because he loveth thee and thy house”.

• This also leaves the door open for the handmaid. Verse 17.

G.R.C. Deuteronomy shows more especially the way we come into it.

Ques. Does not the understanding of the book depend upon bondmanship?

• The revelation is specifically to, “his bondman”, so that the difficulty in understanding has to be traced to failure to take up bondmanship?

G.R.C. The bondman is the only trustworthy person, and is therefore the only person to whom God will commit His secrets. Jesus Christ is the great pattern for us;it is the

• it is the “Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him”

• – given to Him as a glorified Man, the One proved to be so worthy of divine confidence.

Rem. The Lord says,

• “He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me”, John 14: 21.

• He manifests Himself to such.

Ques. Does the idea of purchase come into bondmanship? In Exodus 21 it says,

• “If thou buy a Hebrew bondman”.

G.R.C. It does as regards ourselves. We could not apply that part of the type to the Lord Jesus; but, as to ourselves, it says twice over, “Ye have been bought with a price”.

• Paul closes 1 Corinthians 6 by saying,
  • “Do ye not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God; and ye are not your own? for ye have been bought with a price: glorify now then God in your body”;

• and in chapter 7: 23 he says,
  • “Ye have been bought with a price; do not be the bondmen of men”.

Ques. Is not Joseph the first person to be called a Hebrew bondman? And did he not stand before Pharaoh as a bondman? And did not Pharaoh say,

• “Since God has made all this known to thee, there is none so discreet and wise as thou. Thou shalt be over my house”, Genesis 41: 39-40?

• He had been an initiated person, even in the prison. He had made known the dreams to the cupbearer and the baker, and comes forward as such a person;

• and he is given a responsible place in the administration of affairs.

G.R.C. So John, in captivity as a true bondman, is let into divine secrets which run on to our day and on to the end, and he is to pass these things on. They are for all the bondmen.

Rem. In the beginning and the end of the book the Lord says,

• “the time is near”.

• The saints should have minds and hearts open to the glories of Christ in view of the urgency of the moment.

G.R.C. We need to understand these presentations of Christ in order to be true bondmen,

• and in order to be marked corporately by the features of the bride.

Rem. So the glory of the Person would emphasise His words to us? Power is given to the communications on account of the One who utters them.

G.R.C. If we apprehend His glory as seen in this chapter – verses 13-16 – and in the later chapters of the book;

• we shall not regard ourselves as even worthy to be His slaves – He is so great.

• John the baptist said that he was not worthy to stoop down and unloose the thong of His sandals Mark 1: 7.

Ques. Paul says, “he appeared to me also”, and then he refers to his being,

• “the least … who am not fit to be called apostle”, 1 Corinthians 15: 8-9;

• and then he says, “God’s grace … has not been in vain; but I have laboured more abundantly than they all, but not I, but the grace of God which was with me”, verse 10.

• Was that the great effect of this appearing, “to me also”, to make such a bondman as Paul?

G.R.C. What a bondman Paul was – one of the most faithful the Lord has ever had!

Ques. Is friendship the outcome of bondmanship? The Lord says,

• “I call you no longer bondmen”.

G.R.C. That is the point in the verse,

• “Ye are my friends if ye practise whatever I command you”, John 15: 14.

• The bondman is one who does whatever he is commanded, and he is elevated to the place of friend;

• he is trustworthy – one to whom the Lord would delight to disclose every secret.

Ques. Do you think that in view of the urgency of the things spoken of, and the knowledge that the Spirit is intent upon affecting the assembly in the closing moments,

• the full acceptance of bondmanship is an obligation which rests upon each one of us?

• There may be matters about which we have had reserves. Would not the acceptance of bondmanship settle all things?

G.R.C. “Ye are my friends if ye practise whatever I command you”.

• The bondman does whatever he is commanded. He has no reserves; he does not equivocate when the truth comes to him.

• Such a person is trustworthy and becomes the depository of divine secrets. What a favour is available to us!

Ques. You referred to being bought with a price. Would not that greatly stimulate true bondmanship?

G.R.C. Very much so! Love is the motive seen in the Hebrew bondman; but we have to recognise, as a basic matter, that we have no right to any other position. We are not our own, we have been bought with a price.

Rem. The Lord, being found here as a bondman, was obedient “even unto death”. There was no reserve.

Ques. Does the expression, “And made us a kingdom”, carry the thought of bondmanship?

G.R.C. Bondmanship is a basic idea in coming into the gain of the kingdom. The word there is,

• “To him who loves us, and has washed us from our sins in his blood, and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father”.

• I think the force of the word ‘kingdom’ in that passage is that we are given part in royalty.

• But then the only persons capable of sustaining the dignity which God puts on us – the dignity of royalty and priesthood – are those who are committed to the Lord in bondmanship.

Rem. In Exodus 19 it says,

• “And now, if ye will hearken to my voice indeed and keep my covenant, then shall ye be my own possession out of all the peoples – for all the earth is mine – and ye shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation”.

G.R.C. That bears on what we are saying.

Rem. The Lord is presented as,

• “Jesus Christ, the faithful witness”.

G.R.C. The church has been unfaithful in her witness, but Jesus Christ is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.

• In the addresses to the churches the Lord presents Himself finally as,
  • “the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God”.

• I believe the real test of our affection is the measure of our devotedness and faithfulness as witnesses. It involves true royalty.

• We have been helped as to the priestly side, which is linked more with Philadelphia,
  • but the real test of affection for Christ is committal to Him in the public position.

Ques. After the supper is introduced in 1 Corinthians, all that Paul has to say stands related to the Lord; and he refers drastically to anyone who loves not the Lord. Chapter 16: 22. Does that indicate how bondmanship stands related to the supper?

G.R.C. It is the point upon which the Corinthians were weak, was it not?

• There had been no committal to the Lord in bondmanship. That is why he said to them,
  • “ye are not your own, for ye have been bought with a price”, 1 Corinthians 6: 20.

• He stresses the name of the Lord and the testimonial side. The Lord says to Laodicea,
  • “I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot”.

• The Lord longs for those who are hot. If we are hot, it will become evident in our witness. We shall be like the virgins going out with flaming torches.

Ques. Is it instructive that, as John was in the island called Patmos

• “for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus”,

• the Lord’s day opened up with this great phase of glory?

G.R.C. Very good. The true bondman would be committed to the word of God and the testimony of Jesus, whatever the consequences, would he not?

Ques. Is there not often a weakness on the Lord’s day because of the lack of bondmanship? It is bondmen who can really appropriate the Lord’s day.

Ques. Would the place that John had in the bosom of Jesus bear upon bondmanship?

G.R.C. Very much so! The bosom of Jesus links with the idea of friendship.

• I believe the idea of friendship, in the divine sense in scripture, involves the bosom friend – one to whom all the secrets of the bosom can be confided.

• John is the sample bondman, and thus the sample friend.

Ques. Could we have a little help on,

• “To him who loves us, and has washed us from our sins in his blood”

• – that such a Person should love us and wash us in His blood?

G.R.C. Worship is spontaneous as the glory of the Person who loves us shines before John.

• We cannot exclude the Lord from the first expression,
  • “him who is, and who was, and who is to come”.

• It refers to God as such – the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. But then it goes on,
  • “the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth”.

• As His glory comes before John, he is filled with emotion to think that such a Person loves us, and has proved His love in such a way.

• And the doxology bears witness to John’s appreciation of His deity, for he says,
  • “to him be the glory and the might to the ages of ages. Amen”.

• John understood who Jesus is.

Ques. Would you say something as to,

• “priests to his God and Father”?

• Why does the Father’s name come in there in connection with priests?

G.R.C. Because priests serve in the liberty of sonship. The book is addressed to bondmen, but God calls us sons. The Lord calls us friends and brethren too, but God calls us sons.

Ques. Do we get two sides as to Abigail? The first time she saw David she alighted from her ass hastily, and then she speaks of herself as a bondmaid.

• Then later in the chapter, when he sends for her and communes with her with a view to marriage, she again speaks of herself as a bondmaid who would wash the feet of the servants of her lord.

• I wondered whether the two sides, glory and love, entered into the matter?

G.R.C. That scripture confirms what has been said as to the link between bondmanship, and bridal and wifely affection.

• As remarked earlier, this book closes with the bondman saying,
  • “Amen; come, Lord Jesus”.

• The bondman’s affections and interests are wholly bound up with his Lord; all he desires is that his Lord should come.

• Where that feature marks the individuals, you will find, corporately, bridal and wifely response. So Abigail, a type of the assembly, says,
  • “Behold, let thy handmaid be as a bondwoman to wash the feet of the servants of my lord”, 1 Samuel 25: 41.

Rem. In Luke 15 the bondmen in the Father’s house seem to be those who are qualified to handle the best robe.

G.R.C. Very good! It is the bondmen who truly enjoy sonship, and who are thus able to help others into the gain of it.

We must pass on now to the glory of Christ seen later in the chapter. It says in verse 7,

• “Behold, he comes with the clouds, and every eye shall see him”.

• That is the moment we are looking forward to. When every eye sees the Lord, no one will have an eye for anyone else; He will fill the gaze of the universe.

• Then John sees Him in an extraordinary way – verses 12-16,
  • “And I turned back to see the voice which spoke with me; and having turned, I saw seven golden lamps, and in the midst of the seven lamps one like the Son of man, clothed with a garment reaching to the feet, and girt about the breasts with a golden girdle: his head and hair white like white wool, as snow; and his eyes as a flame of fire, and his feet like fine brass, as burning in a furnace; and his voice as the voice of many waters; and having in his right hand seven stars; and out of his mouth a sharp two-edged sword going forth; and his countenance as the sun shines in its power”.

• It appears evident that John had not seen Him thus hitherto; and I believe
  • the initial necessity, if we are to be recovered to first love, is to see Him like this.

• We have to note where He is. John does not begin by saying, I saw the Son of man, but,
  • “I saw seven golden lamps”.

• The Lord is actually walking in the midst of the assemblies in this majestic and judicial character at the present time,
  • and some of us have been so blind that we have never yet seen Him thus.

Rem. John turned back to see the voice that spoke.

G.R.C. So that while normally on the Lord’s day John would go forward into privilege, here, as in the Spirit,

• he turns back to see the voice which spoke with him; and he gets a view of the Lord in His majesty, which I think is

• essential if we are to be recovered to first love.

• We have to remember that such a Person as this is the Beloved of the assembly.

Rem. Peter, in his first epistle, lays stress upon the priesthood;

• but when he writes the second he talks about the present truth, and lays stress on the majesty of Christ.

G.R.C. Very good. We need help as to the majesty of Christ.

Ques. Is it not important, in touching assembly matters, to do so in the consciousness that this glorious Person is walking in the midst of the assemblies, and that everything is under His eye?

G.R.C. Indeed it is. So while the description begins,

• “One like the Son of man” – wonderful grace – “clothed with a garment reaching to the feet, and girt about at the breasts with a golden girdle”,

• yet verse 14 shows that He is none other than the Ancient of days – God Himself;
  • “his head and hair white like white wool, as snow”:

• and what follows shows that He is the Judge of all. In Hebrews we are said to have come
  • “to God, judge of all”, Hebrews 12: 23.

• But it is to this Person, the Son of man, that judgment is committed. And so we see Him here as the divine Judge,
  • “his eyes as a flame of fire; and his feet like fine brass”.

• Then there is the majesty of His voice, the seven stars seen in His right hand and the sharp two-edged sword going out of His mouth. Finally,
  • “his countenance as the sun shines in its power”.

• Once the sun arises we are no longer occupied with stars.

• What has happened in the history of the assembly is that the stars, or those who have assumed the place of stars, have become very prominent.

• But this view of the Lord would put everything in its right place – “his countenance as the sun shines in its power”.

Ques. Would there be any link between this and the line of truth opened up in Malachi, where, in the presence of failure in responsibility, God is seen in His own glory and majesty?

G.R.C. In Malachi it says,

• “shall the Sun of righteousness arise”, 4: 2.

Rem. Exactly. God would show His own glory, supremacy and majesty in the presence of the people’s failure, calling attention to His own rights and what they were as priests in responsibility.

Ques. What would you say as to the expression,

• “One like the Son of man”?

• There seems, in the apocalyptic scriptures, a kind of indefiniteness. Ezekiel speaks of the likeness of the appearance of a man.

G.R.C. Does not the passage, as a whole, stress who He is – His Person? His manhood is a great reality, and that remains. We are to be impressed with the greatness of His Person.

Ques. You said, a moment ago, that some of us were so blind as not to be able to see the Lord in this setting.

• I wondered whether the apparent indefiniteness here prevents the logical mind arriving at this, whereas spirituality would enable us to see Him.

G.R.C. The working of the logical, natural mind in recent times has tended to limit the Lord to His manhood.

• While not doing so doctrinally, it has done so in practice; so that He has not been accorded the honours which are due to Him.

• The whole of this description – His breasts, head, hair, eyes, voice, mouth and countenance – stress His manhood;
  • but the Spirit of God would help us to discern the greatness of the Person who has thus in grace taken on manhood for ever.

Ques. Would it be suitable to say that His manhood, in so far as we are concerned at the moment,

• is a subservient matter to our apprehending the glory of His Person?

• Could we apprehend the latter apart from His manhood?

G.R.C. We could not. He has come into manhood in order to be the effulgence of God’s glory, and the expression of His substance. What a glorious Man He is!

Rem. In Psalm 45 we read of the glories of the king, and of His loving righteousness and hating lawlessness. I thought that was in keeping with this judicial attitude.

G.R.C. Quite so. That Psalm, while stressing the beauty and grace of His manhood, goes on to affirm His Deity –

• “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever”.

• Of course, there it is the lover delighting in Him; it is a song of the Beloved; and that is what would mark recovery to first love.

• But there is something solemn about the presentation in Revelation, because He is not viewed as riding prosperously in His majesty, and dealing with enemies as in the Psalm, but as scrutinising the assemblies.

• He is walking in the midst of the seven golden lamps, girt about at the breasts.

• His affections are not free; His eyes, as a flame of fire, scrutinise the assemblies; His feet are like fine brass, He is moving to deal with everything contrary to Himself; and out of His mouth a sharp two-edged sword goes forth.

• Who would not fear in the presence of such an One?

Ques. Does Paul see the Lord like this in 1 Corinthians 10 where he says,

• “Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?”

G.R.C. I think so. What can we do in the presence of such a Person as this? His eyes, as a flame of fire, look right into the motives of our hearts. He says to Thyatira,

• “I am he that searches the reins and the hearts”.

• There may be much activity going on – there was much activity in Thyatira,
  • “thy last works to be more than the first”

• – but the One who speaks is the One whose eyes are as a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass, and He searches the reins and the hearts.

• The kidneys are the reins, referring back to the offerings. The Lord is searching the inwards.

• Much may be done in the way of professed works for God, but the Lord is looking at the inwards – at what the motives are.

• Then there is the sharp two-edged sword. How can we face such a Person as this?

Ques. Does this presentation of the Lord show how concerned He is about first love?

G.R.C. Surely. The eyes as a flame of fire look right into the heart.

• Who would have thought that Ephesus had left her first love? The Lord commends much;
  • “I know thy works and thy labour, and thine endurance, and that thou canst not bear evil men; and thou hast tried them who say that themselves are apostles and are not, and hast found them liars; and endurest, and hast borne for my name’s sake, and hast not wearied”.

  • Then He says, “but I have against thee that thou hast left thy first love”.

• Who would have known it but the Lord Jesus Himself?

Ques. Is the view of Christ in His majesty essential if things are to be dealt with rightly and suitably in the assembly?

G.R.C. Yes, and I think the final word would specially help us,

• “His countenance as the sun shines in its power”.

• While we value all other lights from God – we value Paul, Peter and John –

• yet the Lord stands out in His own supreme greatness; “His countenance as the sun shines in its power”.

Ques. Does that link with the presentation in Matthew where the Lord’s face shines as the sun? I was thinking of that as standing upon the threshold of His instruction as to the assembly.

G.R.C. It is a remarkable passage,

• “His face shone as the sun, and his garments became white as the light”,

• and yet, in the presence of His face shining as the sun, a bright cloud over-shadowed them – bright even in the presence of the sun.

• It suggests the Father’s presence – the Father’s glory.

• Yet Peter still had men before him. We should value true men; we should value every one who can bring us light as to God;

• but I believe this manifestation of the Lord would put everyone into his proper place in our minds.

Ques. Would this be seen historically in relation to Jehovah’s sudden appearings in the wilderness –

• “And Jehovah came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood at the entrance of the tent, and called Aaron and Miriam; and they both came forth”, Numbers 12: 5?

• Does He not vindicate His servant – so meek;
  • “Not so my servant Moses”?

• Is that the bondman thought? And, at the same time, there is the scrutiny. The Lord will not have His Name, so holy, attached to what is foreign to that Name?

G.R.C. Very helpful.

Ques. If we were more ready for prostration before Christ in the way in which John was prostrate before Him, would we experience more the comfort and strength of the right hand?

G.R.C. I think we ought to become more accustomed to prostration. Here it says,

• “And when I saw him I fell at his feet as dead”.

• It would be a good thing if we experienced this.

Ques. Are we to take this up locally? The Lord still speaks, and is still to be seen.

G.R.C. The first thing is that if we see Him we shall fall at His feet as dead.

Ques. Would the reference to John becoming in the Spirit on the Lord’s day greatly help him in seeing the Lord in all this glory? What an experience!

G.R.C. Normally the only power we have to see the Lord is in the Spirit; and He is here available, and we should learn to become in the Spirit. It is a thing we need to learn to do.

• In another setting Paul says,
  • “be filled with the Spirit”, Ephesians 5: 18.

• It is our matter; the Spirit is here available; and it is for us to see that we are filled, and that we do become in Spirit.

Ques. Would you say when, and on what occasions, the Lord would present Himself thus to us?

G.R.C. Now, at this very moment! That is what one earnestly desires – that the Spirit of God might so fill us, and the Lord might so manifest Himself, that we might get this view of Him.

Ques. Is it significant for the individual that the voice comes to John, directing him to write to the seven assemblies; his eye for the moment would be on them.

• Then he deliberately turns back to see the voice, and gets this wonderful view in the power of which he could speak?

G.R.C. Exactly. My concern is that we might see the Lord like this, and understand who He is.

• We need to see that the Lord, great and majestic as is the manner of His representation, is walking, in this very character, in the midst of the seven golden lamps.

• He is amongst us like this; but have we seen Him? Do we realise that the Lord is walking amongst us like this?

Ques. John never leaves the prostrate position. He appears to get his immediate commission as prostrated before the Lord. Is that not a word for us?

G.R.C. He says, “He laid his right hand upon me”; but there is no word about John rising up.

• “And when I saw him I fell at his feet as dead; and he laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not; I am the first and the last, and the living one”.

• We have to note there that it is not only what John saw, but what the Lord says. We are not simply left to infer who the Lord is from the description, but He Himself says who He is. He says,
  • “I am the first and the last”.

• He is God; though truly Man, He is God; and that is the One who is walking amongst His own, walking in the midst of the seven golden lamps.

• He is the first and the last, and the living One; and He became dead. That was His own act; just as,
  • “the Word became flesh”, John 1: 14,

• was His own act. But then He says,
  • “I became dead, and behold, I am living to the ages of ages, and have the keys of death and of hades”.

• Think of the majesty of the Person who is thus walking. If we understand this, what can we do other than prostrate ourselves? We need to get into the habit of prostration before the Lord.

• Later in the book, the elders prostrate themselves before Him that sits upon the throne, chapter 4, and in chapter 5 they fall down before the Lamb.

• We need to know more of this falling down before the Lord Jesus in the recognition of Who He is, thus letting the glory of His Person fill our souls.

• So, while we value every light-bearer – Paul, Peter and John and every one who has helped us in these last days – the Lord stands out in His own distinctiveness.

• You cannot compare any other light-bearer with Him – “His countenance as the sun shines in its power”.

Ques. Whilst the presentation is judicial, does the sun include the thought of grace?

G.R.C. I think the general thought of grace runs through, even in the first mention,

• “One like the Son of man”.

• That is, the very first presentation is one which would, as it were, calm the heart, for we have to do with One who is said to be like the Son of man.

Ques. Does the Spirit give more grace to help us face the situation connected with what is judicial? James says,

• “Does the Spirit which has taken his abode in us desire enviously? But he gives more grace”, James 4: 5-6.

• John was in the Spirit. Does the Spirit give more grace so that we also might be prepared for what John saw?

G.R.C. Exactly!

We may also notice here that the elders are seen round the throne on twenty-four thrones. They are sitting, clothed with white garments, and on their heads are golden crowns;

• that is to say, the assembly is viewed as in heaven.

• It is an important matter to come up to heaven. It says in verse 1,
  • “Come up here”.

• The voice is the voice which was first heard as a trumpet, so that it appears to be the Lord Jesus Himself speaking; and He says to His bondman,
  • “Come up here, and I will shew thee the things which must take place after these things”.

• It is a great thing to get a view of the throne, and to understand the place of the heavenly saints round the throne.

• It answers in some respects to Paul’s ministry in Ephesians, where he says that God has raised us up together, and made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus.

• The twenty-four elders are kings – they are crowned; and, according to chapter 5: 8, they are priests –
  • “Having each a harp and golden bowls full of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints”.

• So we have this remarkable company of kings and priests around the throne. I only refer to that to show that we are expected to understand the throne, and to be in sympathy with it.

• Once the Lamb is introduced, every eye is fixed upon Him; He is in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders.

Ques. Would you tell us what the throne suggests?

G.R.C. One thing it suggests is the majesty of God, which I think we need to contemplate.

• “Now to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only God, honour and glory to the ages of ages”, 1 Timothy 1: 17.

• His throne is steadfast for ever; and it appears here, as also in certain other scriptures, in a temple setting, which shows how familiar we should be with it.

• Of course, we understand that it is a throne of grace now – and a mercy-seat.

• It is the same throne in Revelation; but viewed there as prepared for judgment, because lightnings and thunders go out of it; but these do not disturb the elders.

• The elders are in full sympathy with the throne – completely restful. They are sitting upon thrones, and they have golden crowns.

• God expects us to understand the throne. We shall soon actually be sitting round it, as crowned, and we shall reign to the ages of ages. Chapter 22: 5.

Ques. Is that an eternal theme?

G.R.C. The throne of God is eternal.

Rem. I often think we limit a good deal of scripture of this kind to the millennium, but we need a much wider view.

G.R.C. The millennial throne is a mediatorial one. The Lord says,

• “They shall sit with me in my throne”, 3: 21.

• And at the end of the millennial reign He delivers up the kingdom to Him who is God and Father.

• The millennial reign is provisional – a mediatorial kingdom in which the Lord is vindicated in the scene where He was rejected; thus everything focuses upon Him.

• But the throne of God, as such, is eternal. It stands here related to the earth, for God is about to assert His rights over the earth;

• nevertheless the throne of God remains, for in chapter 21, in the eternal state, it speaks of Him that sat on the throne, and Who said,
  • “Behold, I make all things new”.

Rem. Psalm 45 says,

• “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever”.

G.R.C. I would judge that that is the millennial throne of Christ. His Deity will be recognised.

• We can say, “for ever and ever”, because He delivers up the kingdom: it does not come to an end as other kingdoms do.

• It merges into what is greater – the eternal kingdom of God. I think, therefore, that the throne in Revelation 4 is a more absolute idea than in Psalm 45.

Rem. It is connected with the ways of God. The twenty-four elders furnish a golden flood of spiritual sequence of mature experience in the ways of God, and include, I suppose, the Old Testament saints?

G.R.C. It seems as though they are to be included. On the other hand we do right to stress the assembly in our days.

Ques. Is the throne brought in to meet the challenge of evil which has come about in God’s universe, starting with what is Satanic? These living creatures are marked by watchfulness as to what is due to God.

G.R.C. I suppose you would accept that the throne is eternal in character?

• The throne did not come into being to meet evil conditions, although it asserts its rights when such conditions exist.

Ques. You mean that it would set out the supremacy of God?

G.R.C. Yes. Principalities and authorities existed, I suppose, before man was created.

• The idea of rule, and the majesty of God, would be known before man was created.

Ques. What about the One who was sitting?

G.R.C. It is interesting that it is put that way. The Person is not defined. It says,

• “And behold a throne stood in the heaven, and upon the throne one sitting”.

• There are similar references in chapters 20: 11 and 21: 5.

Ques. Would the first few verses of chapter 4 present to us the throne in its abiding and objective fulness,

• but in chapter 5 would it be bearing upon circumstances which are judicial in time?

• Do we not have to distinguish between the throne in its abiding setting, and the bearing of it at any given time?

G.R.C. So I suppose it is right to say that the throne today has the character of the mercy-seat.

Ques. Is that not why in his notes Mr. Darby is anxious to include the thought of the throne in the mercy-seat, and objects to the mercy-seat being classified merely as a place of propitiation?

G.R.C. He says in the note in Romans 3,

• “I do not think this word can be used for ‘a propitiatory sacrifice’ or ‘propitiation’ ”.

Ques. Do not the ascriptions in chapters 4 and 5 give the relative bearing of the two settings of the throne?

• In chapter 4 it is what is normal, and due to God as God; but in chapter 5 it brings in the fact of the one slain –
  • “Worthy is the Lamb that has been slain”.

• I was thinking of chapter 4 in its abiding character, and the whole universe bowing before the throne.

G.R.C. I think they are complementary, because chapter 4 ends,

• “Thou hast created all things, and for thy will they were and they have been created”;

• but then immediately the book appears. That is to say, if created things are to be secured for God’s will there is a book to be opened. Is that so?

Rem. And that brings in the Lamb, and His work and His entitlement.

G.R.C. I suppose the book written within and on the back conveyed the mind and purpose of God as to His creation.

• He had a purpose before creation, and we know that through the incoming of sin things got out of gear.

• But there is the book; and how is the will of God –
  • ”for thy will they were and they have been created”

• – to be carried through? There was no one found able to open the book, except One.

• So that the two chapters are closely linked, because what is said in verse 11 of chapter 4 could not prevail but for the Lamb and what He has done.

Rem. He has accomplished the will of God.

G.R.C. Exactly; but then, if we might speak for a moment of the One sitting, it is remarkable the way it is put –

• “One sitting”.

• We may say, Who is the One? We know the One in whom God has come into expression, whether in His kingship, or in other ways.

• The One in whom God is expressed is the Son, but it is left like that “One sitting”.

• The previous chapter ends,
  • “I also have overcome, and have sat down with my Father in his throne”.

• Of course the throne has a special character at the present time; but, in view of His own assertion of His enthronement at the end of chapter 3, I think when we come to chapter 4
  • we can understand why, although it is the throne of God, it says, “One sitting”.

Ques. Is there any reason why it says,

• “Like in appearance to a stone of jasper and a sardius”, and ending up with a rainbow?

G.R.C. The shining of the city is said to be a crystal-like jasper stone, so there is a link with the One who sits upon the throne in the likeness.

• The rainbow, of course, would show that God is true to all His commitments. If the throne is going to act, it will bring about all that God has committed Himself to: He is faithful to every commitment.

Rem. With regard to the one who is sitting upon the throne, J.N.D. suggests that it is the Son in His divine glory.

G.R.C. There is no doubt that it is; but it is interesting the way it is just left here – One sitting upon it. It is a question of spiritual intelligence.

• But as to the Lord’s own link with the throne, it is manifest, in what He says to the churches, that He is already operating from the throne.

• He is walking in the midst of the seven golden lamps, but He is already operating from the throne. For instance, He says as to Jezebel,
  • “Behold, I cast her into a bed”, Revelation 2: 22

• – Who is speaking? The One on the throne –
  • “and those that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works”.

• That has involved a large section of the history of Europe in modern times; it is an operation of the throne.

• The Lord is with the Father in His – the Father’s – throne, and He is operating. Think of the majesty of a Person who can say of Jezebel, “Behold, I cast her into a bed”.

• Think of what the Lord has done in the history of Europe since the Middle Ages! He has cast Jezebel into a bed. Do we thank Him for it? Do we pray about it still?

• And then He says to Philadelphia,
  • “I have set before thee an opened door, which no one can shut”.

• That would refer, of course, to a spiritually opened door, but we know from the typical history that it also refers to the way He has operated governmentally.

• Jehovah opened the door for the people of old to return, and the Lord is operating now. He is with the Father in His throne: He can do these things.

• He has set before us an opened door, and no earthly government can shut it. Then He says to Laodicea,
  • “I rebuke and discipline as many as I love”.

• He is acting from the throne in this. The last two world wars are an example of it. But for these two world wars could we have been kept in the path of the truth?

• The Lord has operated because He loves His own. So we should understand something of the throne, and its activities at the present time.

Rem. And we are to take account of the One sitting upon the throne, before His worthiness to open the book in chapter 5. We need to grasp the greatness and glory of His Person first.

G.R.C. And is not the Lord concerned that His bondman should see this?

• It is the One whom he saw in chapter 1, walking in the midst of the seven golden lamps, who says,
  • “Come up here”.

• He would say to everyone of us, I want you to see this.

• We shall not be equipped for the present testimony unless we do see the throne, and the One sitting on it.

• And then we see round the throne twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones twenty-four elders.

• I believe it is essential for recovery to first love that we should see all this.

Rem. In chapter 22 the throne is said to be,

• “of God and of the Lamb”.

• The Lamb is linked with God in possession of the throne.

G.R.C. It is the throne of God and of the Lamb. It is one throne – not two.

• God and the Lamb are linked together in connection with the throne in the millennial day;

• but in relation to the eternal state, according to the early part of chapter 21, the Lamb is not mentioned.

Ques. In chapter 5: 13, it says,

• “To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb”.

• Would the Lamb have a mediatorial bearing?

G.R.C. I think so. It does not, in the same way, go on into the eternal state;

• so in chapter 21: 5 you have the Sitter on the throne, but the Lamb is not mentioned.

• We know who the Sitter on the throne is. It is the throne of God; and we know who the One is who would be seen on the throne.

• But the idea of the Lamb is left out because the mediatorial kingdom is over.

Ques. Is there a more absolute presentation of the throne in chapter 4: 8,

• “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come”,

• whereas in chapter 5 is the mediatorial position more in mind where it says in verse 13,
  • “To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb”?

G.R.C. I think so. In chapter 5 the Lamb is seen in the midst of the throne, and attention is largely concentrated on the Lamb.

• We need to see that the throne generally in Revelation is in a temple setting. We ought to understand that, because all saints form the temple.

• The elders round the throne afford a certain view of the saints, and throughout the centre part of the book the assembly is viewed in heaven. So we get later the reference to,
  • “the temple of the tabernacle of witness in heaven”, chapter 15: 5.

• The assembly is the temple of the tabernacle of witness. The tabernacle of witness is on earth at the present moment, but soon to be in heaven.

• So we must not regard the intervening chapters as of secondary importance to us; we need in Spirit to be in heaven, and to see the place we have in heaven while all the great events recorded in the book are taking place.

Rem. In Colossians 2: 10 it says,

• “and ye are complete in him, who is the head of all principality and authority”.

G.R.C. That fits us for our place before the Fulness – we are complete in Him.

• The temple setting of the throne is important. Isaiah gives us light on it. He saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and His train filled the temple.

• There is the Sitter on the throne, and we get a similar ascription of praise,
  • “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory”.

Ques. Is not the assembly intended, as being able to take heavenly ground in the power of the Spirit, to give a touch of fulness to all who may historically belong to other families?

• Whilst Isaiah was greatly disturbed because of his state, these twenty-four elders are restful in the presence of what is portending in this period of judgment.

G.R.C. That is the remarkable thing. The elders as you say, are restful, and are ready at every suitable moment to prostrate themselves and to cast their crowns before the throne.

• It is a question of being habitually accustomed to prostration. If we understand the temple truly, we shall be accustomed to prostration, and our worship will be of this character.

Ques. Does the administration of the throne bear, not so much directly on the assembly, but rather on the glory of God connected with creation?

G.R.C. I think the throne bears very much upon the assembly.

• The setting of it is in the temple, and the saints of this dispensation form the temple.

• Later on it says that the throne of God and of the Lamb is in it – that is, in the city.

Ques. You mean that what reaches out to the universe comes by way of the assembly?

G.R.C. Yes. The elders here have understanding throughout the book as to what is happening. They are in sympathy with the throne, and understand what the throne is doing.

• Later, the temple of the tabernacle of witness in heaven is filled with smoke. That refers to the saints of our dispensation.

• When the judgments are about to fall, the temple is filled with smoke, because those who compose it are wholly with God in His judgments.

Ques. And the seven angels proceed from the temple?

G.R.C. Exactly.

Ques. Do you not think that we need expanding in our thoughts as to the place the assembly has in regard of the whole universe?

• I believe that in presenting the assembly in Colossians and Ephesians the apostle gives it that setting in creation.

G.R.C. That is very interesting. For instance, in Ephesians 3 the principalities and authorities in the heavenlies, even at the present time, are learning from it. Is that what you had in mind?

Rem. Yes, and in Ephesians 1 –

• “the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth”;

• and in Colossians 1 – reconciliation extending to the whole universe ultimately; but,
  • “you … has it reconciled”, in view of assembly service in relation to the universe.

G.R.C. So we need to take account of the assembly all through this book.

• In Revelation 4 the twenty-four elders are round the throne. The Old Testament saints are no doubt included, but we are thinking particularly of the assembly.

• There were twenty-four courses of the priesthood. These are royal priests.

• Then as the book proceeds the temple in heaven is referred to a number of times – e.g. 11: 19; 15: 5.

• Finally, the holy city is seen coming down out of the heaven from God. She comes down out of heaven as having been in heaven all through the period of judgments.

• We are learning now to be with God in matters, in view of being with Him during that period.

Ques. Does not the description of the mystery of God by Paul,

• “in which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge” Colossians 2: 3,

• include the heading up of all God’s thoughts?

Rem. We may be restricted in outlook, whereas, as of the assembly, we should have the whole interest of God before us.

G.R.C. I think that is what our brother has in mind, as to all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

• We have treasures of wisdom and knowledge which no other family will share with us;
  • but then we also, in that wisdom and knowledge, take in everything connected with every other family.

• We are to be with God in the whole matter, are we not?

Rem. I referred to the twenty-four elders as including Old Testament saints.

• The power of the assembly will bring together all that has ever gone before in the ways of God, and give it a fulness and heavenly character.

• All that has been gathered up will abide there in that vessel.

G.R.C. That is very good indeed. It says of the Old Testament saints that they should not be made perfect without us. It needs the assembly to gather up all that past experience, and make it serviceable.

Rem. The assembly has a retrospective outlook, as well as a present one.

G.R.C. Yes. The assembly being there, all the experiences gathered up by the Old Testament saints become available.

Ques. Is there any point in the fact that the bondman becomes happily adjusted to the situation through the service of the elders?

• In two of John’s other writings he refers to himself as an elder, and in one of them he has something to say about the assembly.

G.R.C. John never refers to himself as an apostle. As you say, in this book he is the bondman, and in two of his epistles he is the elder;

• but could he be an elder without being a bondman?

Ques. Is he not showing us his experiences here as a bondman, and how, in those experiences, he is brought thoroughly into accord with the elders; and then in two other compositions he refers to himself as the elder?

Ques. Could we have more help about the temple, and the features of it which should be prominent in the assembly at the present time?

• You were saying that the setting of the throne in the temple is one which we should understand;

• I take it there is a present sense in which the throne is in a temple setting in the assembly?

G.R.C. I think so. As one has said, it has the character of the mercy-seat today.

• Do we not, at the close of the service particularly, arrive at this in the worship of God? Do not His headship, supremacy, majesty and greatness fill our souls?

Ques. They do indeed! Are you suggesting that the temple, really, is connected with the service of God?

G.R.C. Certainly! We must not limit the temple to light. We talk about the temple as the place of enquiry; but it is not only that, it is the place of worship, as it says here,

• “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty”.

• That is going on day and night in the temple; it never ceases. The worship of God is the great point in the temple;

• but then another great point – perhaps the greatest – is that it is where God speaks to us. He says, as to the mercy-seat,
  • “There will I meet with thee, and will speak with thee”, Exodus 25: 22.

• So it is the place where God speaks to us; but the worship of God is going on all the time,
  • and, in that atmosphere, God is free to disclose His deepest secrets – in the temple.

Ques. Does it mean that in the temple what He is as revealed is appreciated and responded to?

G.R.C. Yes, the temple is the shrine. It is the immediate presence of God in all His grace, love, majesty and might.

Rem. So that the temple has unique place in all that follows in relation to the operations of God: everything proceeds from that setting.

Ques. Is not your thought of the temple verified in chapter 11: 1,

• “Rise and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship in it”?

• I was thinking of the worship of God in it.

G.R.C. Exactly, that is the primary thing. Your scripture no doubt refers to the earthly temple, but the principle of it is there – those that worship in it.

Rem. “And in his temple doth every one say, Glory!”, Psalm 29: 9.

Ques. And that would involve that such are characteristically worshippers?

G.R.C. It is characteristic – day and night. We are to be in keeping with the four living creatures.

• J.N.D. says that while no doubt the features symbolised in the four living creatures have marked angelic administration, yet from the time the Lamb comes into view in chapter 5,
  • the elders and the living creatures are brought together, as though they are one company, while angels are seen apart – an outside company.

• That is, once the Lamb comes into view, and the redemption of man is accomplished, man takes a place above the angels, relative to the Lamb;
  • and, from that time on, in a special and most outstanding way, what is symbolised in the living creatures marks the heavenly saints.

• The heavenly saints can carry out those features of the throne – its executive activities. They are more qualified than angels to do so.

• The angels are viewed separately in chapter 4; in chapter 5: 8, when the Lamb took the book,
  • “the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders” – they are moving together now – “fell before the Lamb, having each a harp and golden bowls full of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sing a new song”.

• It is a united company. That is, the living creatures are now identified with the elders, not with the angels.

Rem. And they alone sing the new song.

G.R.C. Then he says in verse 11,

• “I saw, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders”.

• The angels are the outside circle now.

• Redeemed men, as represented in the elders, are now in the innermost circle; and,
  • as symbolised in the living creatures, are carrying on the executive features of the throne, while the angels form an outer circle.

Rem. That is very interesting and very important.

Ques. Should there be more room made for thoughts connected with the Lamb in our assembly service?

G.R.C. I think if we apprehend Him as the Lamb, it will greatly quicken our affections for Him.

Ques. Do you think the diminutive word for Lamb, used here, suggests what is so engaging and attractive?

G.R.C. I do! I have wondered whether that is the reason for the use of the diminutive.

• Brethren will know that in the gospel the Lamb of God is the idea of a full-grown lamb;
  • but right through Revelation it is a diminutive expression.

• The diminutive in scripture is sometimes used to denote special affection; and I believe that the Lamb in Revelation is an object of peculiar affection.

Rem. How much is concentrated in that Person!

Ques. Would you say that the attitude of prostration stands related to first love?

G.R.C. I am sure it does; prostration before the Lamb is a thing to note.

• In chapter 4: 10, the twenty-four elders fall down before Him that sits upon the throne, and cast their crowns before the throne.

• But in chapter 5: 8 the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fall before the Lamb.

• It is a wonderful sight – to see this company, the most exalted in the universe, a company taking a place of precedence over angels, prostrated before the Lamb.

• Each has a harp and golden bowls, and they sing a new song; and they can give the reason for things; they are an intelligent company.
  • “Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open its seals; because thou halt been slain, and hast redeemed to God, by thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and made them to our God kings and priests; and they shall reign over the earth”.

Ques. You speak of all this as future; but you have in mind, I judge, that it is to be characteristic of the assembly at the present time?

G.R.C. How shall we be able to function in the future if we do not learn to do it now?

Rem. This is the time of learning.

G.R.C. So verse 14 –

• “And the four living creatures said, Amen; and the elders fell down and did homage”.

Ques. Would it be right to connect what you are saying with the administration of the mystery in Ephesians,

• “That now to the principalities and authorities in the heavenlies might be made known through the assembly the all-various wisdom of God”, Ephesians 3: 10?

G.R.C. Does it not show that angelic beings – the principalities and authorities – already recognise the precedence of the assembly?

• In Ephesians 2 the saints are viewed as already raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus;
  • and the fact that angelic beings take account of the assembly now, and learn in the assembly the all-various wisdom of God, must imply that they realise that,

• although the assembly is not actually yet in her place, there is on earth at the moment a vessel which takes precedence over them.

Rem. An administrative body which will be the administrative body eternally!

• And they proclaim this in glory in the holy city – in their unjealous contentment to be doorkeepers at the gates of that great vessel.

G.R.C. You are referring to,

• “at the gate twelve angels”, Revelation 21: 12?

• That is very interesting.

Rem. How unjealous they are! They are content to take that lowly service in the holy city.

• What the angels take up here, they proclaim in coming glory –
  • their unselfish recognition of the place this glorious vessel has

• – in the way they fill out the lowly position of doorkeeping in relation to that vessel!

G.R.C. Now we should think of the Lamb.

• But I might say, in passing, as to the throne and the temple, that Isaiah got his commission in the temple. He became a true bondman, saying,
  • “Here am I; send me”, Isaiah 6: 8,

• showing the importance of the temple from the standpoint of persons being commissioned in service. Their impressions are often gained temple-wise.

Rem. “Now there were … in the assembly which was there”, Acts 13: 1.

Rem. The commission of Barnabas and Saul at Antioch confirms what you say.

Ques. Does the Lamb throw light on the whole situation?

• We have the thought of light in relation to the Lamb in chapter 21 of Revelation, and John was sent to bear witness to the light. He drew attention to the Lamb.

G.R.C. Quite so. And then there is the way he is referred to here.

• “The lion which is of the tribe of Juda, the root of David, has overcome”.

• I think we should consider these expressions. Spiritually we all belong to the tribe of Juda; but He is the Lion of it. Then He is the Root of David.

• When John looks to see this Lion, he sees,
  • “in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing, as slain”.

Ques. Does the elder’s remark to John indicate an understanding of the Person of Christ?

• John sees Him as a Lamb standing, but the elder speaks of Him as
  • the “lion which is of the tribe of Juda, the root of David”.

G.R.C. It is the elder’s appreciation, and it should be our appreciation.

Ques. Would you say a word at this point as to the feelings of John? Should we not have feelings about the will of God as to His creation?

G.R.C. I have no doubt that if we feel things to the point of weeping there will be the corresponding appreciation of the Lamb.

Ques. Does not the glory of the Lamb focus upon the opening of the seals of the book?

G.R.C. It says that He has overcome so as to open the book, and its seven seals. The point is, how has He overcome? In a spiritual sense we belong to the tribe of Juda.

Ques. You mean that we are amongst the praising company?

G.R.C. Yes, and the royal company! Juda means praise; but it is the royal tribe, and royalty attaches to the saints.

Ques. I would like to ask about the Lion. Is He one who does not turn aside for any?

G.R.C. Yes. That has marked the Lord, and He has overcome. The great point in this book is overcoming;

• and those who are of the tribe of Juda are characteristically overcomers. It is a great exercise.

Ques. Why are the two ideas put together – the Lion and the Root of David?

G.R.C. It is a question again of the manhood and the Deity of Christ being placed in juxtaposition, as is so often the case in scripture.

• The Spirit of God continually guards the truth of His Person. The only one who could be the Lion of that tribe, is the Root – the Root of David.

• David did great things, and was lion-like in his courage in meeting Goliath and in other ways; but
  • this One who has come is the Root of David, the One from whom David derived all his strength.

Ques. Does the Root of David involve that all true royalty derives from Christ?

G.R.C. Certainly; all true royalty derives from Him. The idea of royalty is manifest in overcoming.

• Judah the patriarch prevailed amongst his brethren, and of him was the prince.

• He prevailed amongst his brethren in Genesis; he thus became entitled, in God’s mind, to royalty, because he prevailed. That is an essential feature of royalty according to God.

• With the word of a king there is power; and a king is one before whom none can rise up. We should all be of the tribe of Juda in that sense.

• But the Lord is the great Overcomer; He is the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David; and He has overcome.

• We, of course; have also to overcome things in ourselves. That does not apply to the Lord at all. But He overcame every foe.

Ques. Do we arrive at an understanding of the Lion by way of the appreciation of the slain Lamb?

G.R.C. That is the way He has overcome; and that is the way we have to learn.

• Judah prevailed among his brethren, but he prevailed among them on the principle of love’s sacrifice.

• Now the Lord has overcome in every way, so as to open the book and its seven seals; and He has done so by way of suffering. We see Him standing a Lamb as slain.

• It requires lion-like courage to be a lamb in the midst of opposition, and to be led as a lamb to the slaughter.

Rem. Although the Lamb is slain, He is said to be standing.

G.R.C. I think it means that He is ready to operate. It is “as slain”; so that His death is freshly before the soul, and freshly before the universe.

• But He is standing ready to operate as the result of having overcome. He has overcome by way of His sacrificial death.

Ques. Could we have a word about the book, and the seven seals?

G.R.C. I think the book is the book of God’s counsels.

• It may refer here particularly to His counsels as to the earth; yet I think we must look at it as His counsels relative to heaven and earth,
  • for the book ends with a new heaven and a new earth and the whole purpose of God fulfilled.

• The Lord says in Psalm 40: 7,
  • “In the volume of the book it is written of me”.

• It may not be the same book, but I think there is a measure of correspondence. Here was a book; and who could open it?

• The book in the Psalm may be different; but it was written of Him; and He came, according to the Psalm, to die. He came on a sacrificial mission to be the antitype of all four offerings.

• What was written of Him in the volume of the book related to the whole will of God being carried through, and it involved His coming on a sacrificial mission. Here we see the mission completed.

• In the Psalm He said, “Behold, I come”: here we see the work done, and the Lamb standing as slain; and He opens the book and its seven seals. He carries the whole will of God into effect.

Ques. Are these seals the judgments of God which are about to be shown?

G.R.C. The seals have to be broken in order that what is in the book may become manifest. It needs certain judicial actions to bring it into manifestation.

• But we need to take account of where the Lamb is –
  • “In the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders”.

• We have seen the Lord walking in the midst of the seven golden lamps; but here we see Him in a different position.

Ques. Could we speak of this as mystery?

• The Lamb in the midst of the throne is the key to the great working out of the will of God, but known in the character which only the initiated can understand.

• You could not think of a Lamb bringing about great results, could you? It is the mighty wisdom of God to present matters thus.

G.R.C. And would we be justified in making an application of it at the present time, if we have matters to deal with which affect the throne?

• Should we not make room for the Lord to be in our midst –
  • “In the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures”.

• The four living creatures are the executive side; they represent the executive activities of the throne. The elders are the deliberative side.

• But whether we are deliberating, or whether we are acting executively, will there be any value in what we do unless the Lord is in our midst as the Lamb?

• If we apprehend Him in this character, it means that what we do will be unimpeachable. No one could impeach the Lamb for what He did!

• He is about to do things which are judicial; but no one could impeach Him, because of His character. He is a Lamb standing as slain.

• He Himself has borne all the judgment and all the wrath. If anyone suffers, it will only be because of persistent self-will.

• The Lamb has done everything on His side to save him; and that is what should be manifest in assembly matters today.

• Everything which can be done should be done to save a person.

Ques. Would that be in verse 14 by way of application –

• “And the four living creatures said, Amen: and the elders fell down and did homage”?

Is there confirmation without question of such assembly judgments, and that worshipfully, in the presence of the One to Whom we owe all in reaching them?

G.R.C. If, as applying this, we have made way for the Lamb to stand in the midst, I believe what you say will be true.

• What will be arrived at in assembly judgment will be such that the only thing which can be said about it is, Amen!

Ques. It would appear that, in making way for the Lamb in this setting, we also make way for the perfect discernment of the Spirit too?

G.R.C. That is very good. You are thinking of the seven eyes?

Rem. Yes. You referred to what is unimpeachable.

G.R.C. Quite so. We might say at the present time, in matters connected with the throne, Where is the power?

• The One in our midst is a Lamb, and the saints are to bear His character.

• We have no outward power behind us to enforce things. But then it says,
  • “having seven horns”.

• The Lamb has seven horns; there is all the power of God there, though outwardly it would not appear so. And then
  • “seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God” – full discernment.

Ques. Would there be a link with the way in which Paul in writing to the Corinthians connects His power with the meekness and gentleness of Christ?

G.R.C. That is a very apt scripture!

• “I beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ”.

Ques. Would you say that,

• “in the midst … a Lamb standing”,

• would give colour to everything which was done?

G.R.C. That is so. Everything that is done would be unimpeachable.

Ques. Is it significant that at the point where the glory of the Lamb is brought before their vision, and they engage in this new song, there is a direct ascription of praise?

• It develops into what He has done; but the glory of the Person seems to be before their souls?

G.R.C. So that the priestly element becomes paramount here.

• When the elders are first presented, it is the kingly view – sitting on thrones and crowned with golden crowns.

• But as the Lamb comes into view, and they see the settlement of every moral issue, and God’s purpose fully established through Him, the priestly functions become prominent.

Ques. Is overcoming necessary because there are evil powers which have challenged the will and rights of God,

• and the Lamb has overcome in meeting all those challenges, so that the will of God can go forward?

• So with the various matters which come up, and have to be dealt with, must we see them in their true character as challenging the rights and pleasure of God;
  • and if that is met in the spirit of overcoming, the service of God will go on in a fuller and richer way?

G.R.C. I think that is just the point. Things come up which challenge the rights of the throne, and we in our day are linked with the throne and the Lamb in the midst of the throne.

• That being so, there is the means of meeting everything according to God; and that will lead to freedom in priestly service.

• So that the tribe of Juda combines both ideas. It is the royal tribe which overcomes – the Lion Himself having fundamentally met everything –
  • and then it is also the tribe of praise, for ‘Juda’ means ‘praise’. One hinges on the other.

Ques. Would you say something about the prayers of the saints?

G.R.C. “Having each a harp and golden bowls full of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints”. What is in your mind?

Rem. They are connected with the elders, but they are the prayers of the saints. I was thinking of the general feature of prayer amongst the saints, and how it is cherished by those who are experienced.

G.R.C. It is what they have – “having each ...” We need to see to it that we have these things. We have each a harp: we have it wherever we go: we do not leave our harps behind.

• Paul and Silas had their harps with them in prison. And they also had the golden bowls full of incenses. So we are to have these things at all times.

• In what the Lamb has effected there is the answer to all prayer; but then it leads to song.

Rem. The service of God is enriched by the very cares and exercises of overcoming.

• The Lord overcame because He refused to succumb to any principle in this world;
  • and the saints, as so doing, go through sufferingly to a divine issue of moral questions,

• and ingather more substance priest-wise for both prayer and praise.

G.R.C. You would say that every conflict yields spoil for God?

Rem. Mr. Darby’s hymns, often written in the midst of serious conflict, suggest how the presence of the Lord, known as the Lamb in the midst in our testings, would liberate us far more to bless Him in His own realm.