A.N.W. Are you intending to say that, in offering our praise and worship, we cannot do it rightly if we hold ourselves back. We are exhorted to present our bodies a living sacrifice.

G.R.C. That would be the normal result of our appreciation of the offering of the body of Jesus Christ.

W.T.L. And would you say, too, that it would be in the light of this that Paul says to the Colossians,

• “And everything, whatever ye may do in word or in deed, do all things in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father by him”, Colossians 3: 17.

G.R.C. I am sure that an apprehension of the offering of Himself – His great high priestly offering – would secure a continuous response in our hearts, and would result in ourselves being set here for the will of God. He says,

• “Lo, I come … to do, O God, thy will”, Hebrews 10: 7.

• Think of what that will involved for Him; but think of what He has established! Think of the results of it, that He has established suitable conditions for God to dwell!

• The true tabernacle has been pitched and purified; and this more excellent ministry, as under His hand as the Minister of the holy places, is proceeding.

• What an immense thing He came to do in coming to do God’s will!

J.R.H. So that the whole system is permeated by the offering of Himself. It is to characterise us all in our approach in worship.

G.R.C. It is the appreciation of that which will set us free, as we shall see when we come to entrance into the holiest.

• I believe we need what we have had before us – an apprehension of the greatness of His Person; of the greatness of His priesthood; and, in a special way, of the greatness of His offering, the offering of Himself –

• if we are to have the liberty which is proper to us as Christians to enter the holy of holies at all times. He has made a way for us right through into the holy of holies.

C.A.M. Would it include, in this great sacrificial system, the daily, weekly, monthly and yearly sacrifices? The whole year was filled out sacrificially in the type.

G.R.C. The continuous nature of the offerings in the types would show, in its teaching for us, how freshly we should hold in our affections, before God, this great sacrifice.

A.B.P. It was only the blood of sin offerings on the day of atonement which was taken through the veil into the holiest.

G.R.C. That is what is primarily in mind in the section of the book we are on.

A.B.P. You mentioned that He has gone in, and is still within. The completion of the day of atonement still awaits His coming out, I suppose, in its broad sense.

G.R.C. Yes, but then the writer of this epistle is concerned that we should know Our place inside.

• Our Forerunner has entered in, and, by the sacrifice of Himself, has laid the basis for us to enter in. He has entered in by His own blood.

• The coming out is referred to at the end of chapter 9. It is the thing we look for, because we know that when He comes out we shall come out with Him.

• We belong inside. Now that is the great thing to apprehend at the present time. He is inside, and we belong inside.

J.G.H. The greatness of His offering is emphasized in chapter 9: 11,

• “But Christ being come high priest … by his own blood”.

G.R.C. He has entered in by His own blood, which stresses the greatness of His sacrifice. It stands in contrast to the types:

• “not by blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood, has entered in once for all into the holy of holies”.

Rem. This is a wonderful dispensation in which we are found. It says at the end of verse 10 that the Jewish system was imposed until the time of setting things right.

• This dispensation is one in which things have been set right. It is therefore a great matter for worship.

G.R.C. It is. I wonder how far we have really grasped that what was in the type of old – that is the tabernacle – actually exists now.

• What was existing then was but a type and a shadow; and yet the position was such that, even in that which was only a type, the high priest could only enter once a year, and with blood not his own.

• But now we have come to the real thing – the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched and not man.

• And not only have we come to it, but we form part of it.The true tabernacle is existing here – in the assembly at the present time.

Ques. What did you have in mind in the coming out with Him?

G.R.C. It is an important side, but what will qualify us for coming out is our going in.

• Those who believe in Jesus will God bring with Him; but we shall go in first into our eternal place. Colossians speaks of it also,
  • “When the Christ is manifested who is our life, then shall ye also be manifested with him in glory”, Colossians 3: 4.

  • Meantime, “your life is hid with the Christ in God”, Colossians 3: 3.

• That is the inside place, and that is the thing we need to know more about.

• Our Forerunner has entered in; and, in this dispensation, the great thing for the saints to learn is their place inside. We shall be ready then for coming out.

• In principle, of course, the thing works now morally. That is, if we are to come out suitably in testimony, we need to know our place inside, even now.

• It is only those who know their place inside, within the veil, who can rightly testify to Christ at the present time; and only such, really, can rightly serve God in worship and priestly service.

J.R.H. So that this entering in by His own blood is not simply for Himself, is it? It is really for us – the way is cleared for us.

G.R.C. Yes, it is. It says, “But Christ being come high priest of the good things to come”.

• The note helps, I think, as to that. It says, “Dia here gives the character of his coming. He came in the power of, and characterized by, these things”.

• So that Christ came as characterized by
  • “the good things to come, by the better and more perfect tabernacle”;

• and His going in, by His own blood, has brought into living operation the whole system. That is what I would understand.

• It has made a way in for us, the heavenly company, and has really brought into operation the whole system.

W.T.L. Has He gone in as High Priest, and by His own blood, in order that there may be a dwelling place for God – that God may have His place and portion?

G.R.C. Surely. This epistle is largely speaking about what it means for us, because the Hebrews needed that, and we need it.

• But we also need to keep in mind just what you say, that the great point is that God should have His dwelling place,

• and should dwell undisturbed in a system fragrant and wholly according to Himself, where every stain of sin under His eye is removed,

• and where He can thus dwell complacently and be served acceptably by worshippers whose consciences are purified from dead works.

G.A.S. Is there a suggestion in Leviticus that the sons of Aaron are in the appreciation and understanding of that? They present the blood.

G.R.C. In Leviticus 1: 5, “And Aaron’s sons, the priests, shall present the blood and sprinkle the blood round about the altar”.

• That is the blood of the burnt offering. Then as to the peace offering in Leviticus 7: 33,
  • “He of the sons of Aaron that presenteth the blood of the peace offerings, and the fat, shall have the right shoulder for his part”.

  I think, as you say, that the sons of Aaron characteristically have an appreciation of the blood – not simply in its bearing on us, but in what it means to God.

• That is, they are with God in His appreciation of the blood. And I think that is an important matter.

• Those chapters in Leviticus suppose the priest functioning. We have not reached that yet in this series of readings.

• We are still speaking about the High Priest and what He did – His unique service in what He offered, which is the basis of everything.

• But having learned the value of His service, and having entered the holiest, we become qualified, intelligently, to serve.

• And you can quite understand that in Christianity, where we have liberty to go in at all times, and,
  • having gone in, have seen the blood on the mercy seat and sprinkled seven times before the mercy seat, we shall have a profound appreciation of the blood.

• I believe it is a great thing with God that His priests should be able to come before Him as sharing with Him His own appreciation of the blood. I believe that is what the presenting means.

J.R.H. Do you think that should help us in regard to addressing the Lord in relation to the cup?

G.R.C. I think it should. The cup, strictly, would link more with the peace offering, because the peace offering is the view of the offering of Christ in which He loved us and gave Himself for us.

• He died to establish the Christian fellowship with all its blessings. And the blood of the covenant is the witness of that.

• It is all witness of perfect love and unmixed blessing, founded upon His blood;
  • “This cup is the new covenant in my blood”, 1 Corinthians 11: 25.

• We have the greatest blessing of any family, but it has secured the blessing of all the families.

• The tabernacle and all the instruments of service were sprinkled with blood. It involves in its fulness a universe of blessing.

• But I would not omit the burnt offering side from the cup. We may be equal, at that point in the service, to thinking of the other side of the matter – the blood as the witness of a work completed for God.

• Indeed, all depends upon the work completed for God. That is the idea of the priest presenting the blood of the burnt offering.

• It was customary in the Old Testament for burnt offerings and peace offerings to be offered together – see Exodus 24: 5 and other passages.

C.D. A deeper appreciation of that would give us more liberty in the service.

G.R.C. It would, because it is by the blood of Jesus that we have boldness.

C.D. “To him who loves us, and has washed us from our sins in his blood, and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father”, Revelation 1: 5.

G.R.C. Exactly. But how wonderful to present the blood to God! We are apt to think only of what the blood has done for us,

• but the priests present it to God. They have an appreciation of God’s estimate of the blood.

J.A.P. Did the Lord refer to the burnt offering or the peace offering when He said.

• “And having taken the cup and given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it. For this is my blood, that of the new covenant, that shed for many for remission of sins”, Matt. 26: 27-28.

• What was the Lord referring to there?

G.R.C. I think we have to remember that the four offerings of old typify one great offering:

• “For by one offering he has perfected in perpetuity the sanctified” Hebrews 10: 14.

• And then, “Sacrifices and offerings and burnt-offerings and sacrifices for sin thou willedst not, neither tookest pleasure in”.

• That includes all four offerings.

• “Sacrifices” refers to peace offerings. The peace offering is habitually called a sacrifice in the Old Testament – a sacrifice of peace offering.

• Then the meat offerings – or oblations – and then burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin.

• Now all those offerings are offerings by fire. That should touch our hearts; they are all offerings by fire. The Lord came to bear the fire.

• The most severe is the sin offering, which comes last in that verse.

• Blood is connected with three of them, the peace offering, the burnt offering and the sin offering.

• It is in connection with the peace offering and the burnt offering that the sons of Aaron are said to present the blood.

• I do not think the word ‘present’ is used in connection with the sin offering. The blood of the sin offering was poured out at the bottom of the altar, Leviticus 4: 7, 18, 25 and 34.

• On the day of atonement it was also taken in, and sprinkled on the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat. That was done by the High Priest only – He only could take the blood inside.

• But I would say in Matthew 26: 28 we should not limit it, because all four offerings were necessary to secure our blessing – He offered Himself.

J.A.P. That fits in with what a brother said in our area, that the Lord actually gave a word at the taking of the cup, as if He would enlarge on what we are now speaking of.

G.R.C. I believe the Lord would help us in relation to the cup. But there is also scope for expressing our appreciation of the blood later in the service.

• When we are thinking of God in His greatness and majesty, we can speak to Him as sharing, in our measure, His estimate of the blood and what it has effected for Him.

Rem. In speaking of the counsels of God, Paul speaks of

• “the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own”, Acts 20: 28.

• Is there a link there?

G.R.C. Quite so. What a level that is!

C.D. You feel we really need a deeper appreciation of what the blood means to God.

G.R.C. That is it. That is what the priests should have.

C.D. Instead of our side – what it has done for us – we need to think of what the blood has done for God – its infinite value!

G.R.C. The only gospel which refers to the blood at the cross is the gospel of John:

• “but one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and immediately there came out blood and water”, John 19: 34.

• And that is the gospel where the Lord Jesus says on the cross,
  • “It is finished” John 19: 30.

• And it is also the gospel where He says to His Father,
  • “I have glorified thee on the earth, I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it”, John 17: 4.

• We use those scriptures, especially the first, in the gospel, and it is very good thus to assure the sinner; but that is not the proper setting.

• The point in John is that the work is finished for God. It is a question of what the blood is for God.

• The blood and water from His side is also a witness to us. That is like the peace offering. It is a witness to us that God has given us eternal life, as it says in the epistle.

• But the great thing to apprehend, I believe, is the work completed for God. That is the highest view of the matter.

F.W. Is it not remarkable that in the gospel the blood comes first? I think I see something in what you are saying, that this for God. But when we come to the epistle the water is first, as though that would be for us.

G.R.C. In the epistle it is certainly the peace offering character; in fact throughout the epistle of John the peace offering character of the death of Christ is stressed.

• The sin offering comes in in chapter 1,
  • “the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin”, 1 John 1: 7.

• That is the basic matter – the foundation, as it were, for the whole system to function. But then, as the epistle proceeds, the apostle is dealing with the death of Christ from the standpoint of the peace offering.
  • “Hereby we have known love, because he has laid down his life for us”, 1 John 3: 16.

• And it is the bearing of the peace offering on us, that we should lay down our lives for the brethren. You see, if we appreciate what Christ has done for us,
  • we shall lay down our lives for the brethren; and that is how the peace offering is continued, in the principle of it.

• It is on that line that the saints remain a spiritually wealthy people. The Lord died to make us wealthy;
  • but in a practical way the wealth continuing depends upon the saints following Him in peace offering character, bringing their peace offerings, and laying down their lives for the brethren.

• The main point of that epistle is the peace offering; and therefore you can understand, at the end, that it is what the blood is as the witness to us, the Spirit and the water and the blood all agreeing in the witness that God has given to us eternal life.

• But then, as you say, the Gospel is what the blood is to God; and I believe, if we see that, we shall enjoy John’s gospel more. The Lord says, “It is finished”. He was speaking in relation to His God.

A.N.W. Even in the type, at the outset in Egypt, the word is “when I see the blood”.

G.R.C. Quite so; so that even there the blood was for God.

Rem. In Cain’s offering there was no blood, no remission of sins, and no love for his brother.

G.R.C. And that is why it speaks of dead works in Hebrews,

• “How much rather shall the blood of Christ, who by the eternal Spirit offered himself spotless to God, purify your conscience from dead works to worship the living God”.

• We can only serve God aright, and be true worshippers, as we are in the gain of sabbath. The Lord says, “It is finished” – the great sabbath is brought in.

• The sabbath is connected with God finishing His work. He works by Himself and for Himself, and finishes it; and then He rests.

• That happened in creation, but was soon spoilt; and then it happened in connection with the work of redemption.

• There was a great work to be done; and the Son did it, by and for Himself, as we have already seen. And He has completed the work.
  • “I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it”, John 17: 4;

  • anticipatively there, but on the cross He says,
    “It is finished”.

• That is the next great sabbath. That work is done; and until we approach God in the appreciation of the great fact that that work is done, and are really resting in this, we cannot do any works which are acceptable to Him.

• They are dead works. Cain began the history of dead works, and they are offensive to God.

Ques. In verse 12, what is the force of the expression “once for all”?

G.R.C. “Has entered in once for all into the holy of holies”, is the contrast, I think, to the priest entering in once a year.

• In that which was type, the priest could go in only once a year; and only the high priest – no other priest, as we know; and he had to come out again.
  • “But Christ being come high priest of the good things to come, by the better and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand … by his own blood, has entered in once for all”.

• There is no coming out and going in again, in that sense. He will come out for display. But so far as the work is concerned, He has gone in once for all. It is a completed matter.

• The matter of sabbath is a very important thing, because unless we have arrived at sabbath in our souls, we cannot begin to work properly for God, or serve. It will be servile work.

• When the people were before God there was to be no servile work. We need to be in the sense of sabbath in the way in which we are speaking of it now – God’s rest in Christ and His completed work –

• so that we are not bringing anything of man into the matter, anything of ourselves. Only thus are we true worshippers.

H.B. Would that be the order in Lev. 23 – that the sabbath comes in at the beginning of the set feasts?

G.R.C. It is a striking thing that the sabbath comes in at the beginning of the set feasts.

• It says in that verse that the sabbath was to be observed in all their dwellings. It is a matter which should mark our homes.

• The sense of resting in Christ, and His finished work, should govern us in our homes. They will not be proper homes according to God unless it does.

• Not only shall we be restful, and our homes held for God, but we shall not tolerate anything which Christ’s death has put away.
  • We shall not tolerate any feature of the old man if we are in the gain of God’s sabbath in Christ.

• This should govern our homes; and if it does not govern our homes, assembly service will be interfered with, and the feasts of Jehovah interfered with.

W.T.L. Is that why in the verse you quoted it is,

• “how much rather shall the blood of the Christ”, Hebrews 9: 14.

• It is not Jesus, but the Christ. Everything of the old order is shut out, and He is the Head of the new order which is coming in. Is that the idea?

G.R.C. That is very good. It really means, I think, that He is the Centre of an anointed system, which all takes character from Him as the Christ.

• Every activity in the system is to be in the power of the anointing, which shuts out man after the flesh altogether. And the completed work for God has set God free to anoint us.

• We know there was the anointing in type, but the actual anointing by the Spirit has come about because Christ’s work is done. This offering is completed.

• And in our activities we are to allow nothing which is outside of the anointing.

J.P. Would not then these expressions – the better covenant, the better promises, the better and more perfect tabernacle and the more excellent ministry – all help us to elevate our thoughts as to the uniqueness of this service, and of the One who has introduced it?

G.R.C. They would, and our affections will be stirred and maintained in an active state in relation to the offering of Himself.

• It ought to affect us every time we think of it – that such an One should inaugurate the system by the offering of Himself. I cannot conceive of anything which should move the souls of the saints more.

Dr. C. When the Spirit came down at Pentecost, He filled all the house where they were sitting. I was thinking of what you are speaking of, and the import of the sitting.

G.R.C. That is an interesting point, and it bears on the thought of sabbath. It says in Hebrews 10: 12,

• “But he, having offered one sacrifice for sins, sat down in perpetuity at the right hand of God”.

• The work is done from this standpoint.

• There is much to be done in new creative work before the final sabbath, when the One on the throne says, “It is done”, in Revelation 21:6. That is final.

• But we are to be in the sense of sabbath in this respect. Our great High Priest, our Forerunner, has finished the work; He has sat down in perpetuity at the right hand of God, and that is to characterise the system.

J.H. Is there salvation in the understanding and observing of sabbath in our households?

G.R.C. I believe that if we have an appreciation of God working by and for Himself in creation, in redemption and in new creation,

• we shall want nothing out of accord with it in our homes. We shall want no feature of the old man there. Any feature of the old man would be out of keeping with God’s sabbath.

A.N.W. That is a remarkable reference to sitting, because it speaks, under the old economy, of the priests standing daily. There was no seat in that system.

G.R.C. There was no rest in that system, no finality. The sacrifices were unable to perfect, as to conscience, those who approached. There was no rest for the conscience, and no true service towards God.

Rem. In order to have true service and proper worship in the assembly, the thing must be worked out at home.

G.R.C. That is how Leviticus 23 begins. It is the great chapter dealing with the convocations. It begins with the home. We need to look after our homes.

• It is, “in all your dwellings”, Leviticus 23: 14.

• We may have a house, but it may not be a dwelling. God’s dwelling is based on what we are saying – the offering of Christ.

• It is through the offering of Christ that God has secured a dwelling place amongst men, and our homes are to be dwellings.

A.J.D. Was it not through the households that the testimony came into Europe?

G.R.C. It shows the importance of households in working out the truth of the assembly to its full level, because that was what was in mind in Europe.

J.R.H. You were going to say something more about the dwellings.

G.R.C. It is interesting that the word ‘dwelling’ is used. Not every house is a dwelling. I believe it is as we learn to keep sabbath that our houses become true dwellings according to God.

J.R.H. You are attaching the thought of dwelling to rest?

G.R.C. Yes, God dwells in restful conditions.

A.B.P. Lydia said, “If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and abide there”, Acts 16: 15. She seemed to have gotten the idea, do you not think?

G.R.C. “Abide there”. What a dwelling it must have been! When Paul came out of prison, he came to Lydia.

T.L.S. The contrast of what you are saying as to the houses seems to be set out in Abraham and Lot. Abraham sitting by the tent door is available to the visitors. Lot is not so well set in his house.

G.R.C. Abraham was restful. He was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.

A.B.P. I would like to ask about the day of atonement not coming in at the beginning of Leviticus,

• and apparently no restrictions upon entering into the holiest at the beginning of the book.

• The restrictions came in as the result of the offering of strange fire.

• Is all that to be held in background in our souls as we contemplate the glory of our approach? Nothing of the flesh, or of human intellect, should intrude as we enter there.

G.R.C. That is very good. And do you not think that that bears on a verse which we did not read in Hebrews 9: 4,

• “Having a golden censer”.

• We are not told in the Old Testament that the censer was golden, but we are told it here. On the day of atonement, when Aaron went in, he went in with the censer. It says in Leviticus 16: 12,
  • “And he shall take the censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before Jehovah” – no strange fire there –

  • “and both his hands full of fragrant incense beaten small, and bring it inside the veil. And he shall put the incense upon the fire before Jehovah, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat which is upon the testimony, that he die not. And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle with his finger upon the front of the mercy-seat eastward; and before the mercy-seat shall he sprinkle of the blood seven times with his finger”.

• It seems to me a most beautiful type of the Lord Jesus. He went in in all the fragrance of His Person. It was on the basis of the offering of Himself. It was by His own blood;
  • but He goes in in all the fragrance of His Person, which the very sufferings of atonement had brought out in fulness.

• It was the very sufferings He went through, in offering Himself, which brought the fragrance into full manifestation; and He goes in in this cloud of incense,
  • “that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy-seat”.

  • And earlier in verse 2 God says, “for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy-seat”.

• It was as though, as the cloud of incense met the cloud on the mercy-seat, God appeared in the cloud. It drew out the outshining of God. He shone forth from between the cherubim.

• And that is the present position. Christ has gone in in the power of His own blood, but also in all the fragrance of His Person, brought out fully in the very sufferings of atonement; and the result is that God has shone out,
  • “thou that sittest between the cherubim, shine forth”, Psalm 80: 1.

• God has appeared, and He is shining forth; and the One who has gone in in this cloud of fragrant incense is Himself the shining forth;
  • “who being the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance”, Hebrews 1: 3.

Ques. You mentioned Aaron’s sons having an appreciation of the blood, and that there was room to think of that both at the beginning and the end of the service.

G.R.C. When we are worshipping God as God, in His glory and majesty, we may think of the blood as the witness to the work completed for Him.

• If we can sing,
  “Thou dwellest now, O God, midst fragrant praise”,

• what is the basis of it? How could it be? Well, what a value He puts upon the blood that has laid the basis for that dwelling!

A.B.P. Would you say something about Hebrews 9: 14,

• “How much rather shall the blood of the Christ, who by the eternal Spirit offered himself spotless to God”.

• Does that link with the fragrance being brought out?

G.R.C. It is a most affecting verse, is it not? “Who by the eternal Spirit offered himself spotless to God”. Who can estimate the fragrance of it?

A.B.P. I feel that if we understood this verse better there would be more part given to the Spirit in the morning meeting, as we speak of it.

• One has observed, in having the privilege of being in various places with the brethren, that there still seems to be a lack in relation to the intelligent and worshipful response to the Spirit.

G.R.C. I am glad you have mentioned that, because if we do not give the Spirit His place from our hearts

• – if we are not giving the Spirit His place and realizing that we cannot do anything without Him – the service cannot be what it should be.

• We shall not go through the service with that smoothness and ease which should mark it until we arrive at the highest levels.

• And if the Spirit is with us all through the service, we shall be sustained when we reach the highest levels.

• It will not be just a touch of it at the end, but we shall be conscious of His help and power.

A.B.P. And one has felt that, with the ministry we have had, it is a question of what it is that is lacking –

• as to whether it is this matter of the dwellings you are speaking of, our communion with the Spirit in personal history, our sowing to the Spirit, our walking by the Spirit;

• whether that is the background which makes possible having power for response to the Spirit in the service of praise?

G.R.C. That is a very sobering and good consideration. How we would all long to know the Spirit better in personal intercourse,

• and as practically proving Him in every department of life – in our homes, and our businesses and our personal matters.

• Let us, from today on, seek to live by the Spirit, and walk by the Spirit, and sow to the Spirit.

• You see it perfectly in the Lord, He was led by the Spirit in the wilderness; He was full of the Spirit, and so on.

• And therefore when it came to the offering of Himself, it was by the eternal Spirit.

• When we come to offer our sacrifice of praise, if we have not been in liberty with the Spirit in other departments of life how can we expect to know how to avail ourselves of Him then?

H.O.E. Is that why the later part of the verse follows:

• “purify your conscience from dead works to worship the living God”?

G.R.C. I believe anything done in a religious way in the service of God – that is, apart from the Spirit – is dead works. And that is a solemn thing to think about.

Rem. There is an interesting word in Hebrews 9: 8,

• “The Holy Spirit shewing this”.

• Would you not say that if we were nearer to the Spirit in all our relationships we would know more of what the offerings mean to God?

G.R.C. Yes, I am sure. This is an important matter we are on, that the system has been inaugurated by the Lord Jesus offering Himself by the eternal Spirit spotless to God;

• and if that is how the system was inaugurated, every activity in the system should be by the eternal Spirit.

A.J.D. Is that the burnt-offering?

G.R.C. I think it is all four. There are four types, but in chapter 10, after having enumerated the four types, it says,

• “by one offering he has perfected in perpetuity the sanctified”.

P.W. Would you help us as to the word “eternal”.

G.R.C. Well, it is in keeping with the epistle generally. In Hebrews 9: 12 it speaks of

• “an eternal redemption”;

• in verse 14, “by the eternal spirit”;

• and in verse 15, “the eternal inheritance”.

• Of course, the Spirit is eternal; He is God. But I think the word “eternal” is to emphasize that which marks the whole system.

• The redemption is eternal; the inheritance is eternal; and the Spirit, by whom we serve, is eternal.

E.M. In chapter 8 we get the greatness of the sacrifice,

• “whence it is needful that this one also should have something which he may offer”.

• Chapter 9 gives us the way in which He offered it.

G.R.C. That is it. It was by the eternal Spirit that He offered Himself spotless to God. We may well pause and think of what it meant to the Spirit.

Ques. Would you say a word as to why the living God is brought in in the last clause of that verse?

G.R.C. In contrast to dead works. He is the living God, and therefore everything in christianity is living.

• We belong to the tabernacle, or dwelling place, of the living God. He lives and moves in it. We ourselves do not remain static in our own houses.

E.C. I would like to ask about your remark yesterday as to the love of the Spirit for the Father and for the Son. Does that enter into this matter?

• The Lord says, “I love the Father”. But you do not get the Spirit saying that; but it must be so.

G.R.C. The Spirit does not speak much about Himself. He is an example for us.

A.N.W. May I enquire, in relation to this profound enquiry this afternoon, whether we have to leave in abeyance the Melchisedec function of the priesthood?

G.R.C. Yes, because that would link more, would it not, with the Lord coming out in blessing?

• Although we do experience it, for the Lord comes to us, it is not the coming out publicly.

• But as we partake of the supper the Lord comes in in blessing. So I think in a kind of way we anticipate the blessing.

A.N.W. That is very good.

G.R.C. But as to the eternal Spirit, think of the feelings of the Spirit when the Lord Jesus offered Himself!

• The Spirit brooded over the face of the waters at the beginning; He came down in bodily form as a dove upon the Lord, and, according to John, abode upon Him.

• And then think of this moment! What it meant to the Holy Spirit! The Spirit entered into the whole matter of the death of Christ.

• The Spirit entered into the matter of His birth:
  • “The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and power of the Highest overshadow thee”, Luke 1: 35.

• Think of how the Spirit has entered with feeling into all these things! And He would give us feelings.

J.H. Does this verse concentrate our attention on what Divine Persons have done by Themselves and for Themselves; with a view to Their praise and worship?

G.R.C. It does. The idea of sabbath means that we are resting in what God has done by and for Himself.

Rem. It speaks of the Lord Jesus having done everything in the power of the Spirit. Is that the eternal Spirit?

G.R.C. This was a kind of climax. He had done everything by the Spirit in His life; but now, by the eternal Spirit He offers Himself. Marvellous thing!

• And the whole service is to be in the Spirit’s power. Let us remember that!

• That is how the service has been inaugurated, and it must go on in the same way. The whole service of God must be energised by the eternal Spirit.

A.B.P. And is that strengthened by the record, which Luke gives us in the Acts about the Lord in resurrection life, assembling with His own, and then charging them by the Spirit?

G.R.C. It is remarkable that, even in resurrection, He should do that. Do you think it was to bring it home to them that that was how things were to be continued?

A.B.P. I think so. Those forty days are days we should acquaint ourselves with, do you not think? How can we move in the sphere beyond death unless we have come to know something of that set out in Christ personally?

G.R.C. It seems to me that if you read Acts 1 and the account of those forty days, you can see that the Lord left the hundred and twenty with great expectation as to Who was coming. He says there,

• “But ye shall be baptised with the Holy Spirit after now not many days”, Acts 1: 5.

• Think of their expectation! Day by day He had left them with an impression of the greatness of the Person who was coming.

• It is evident that Peter had apprehended it, because he gets up amongst the brethren and says,
  • “Which the Holy Spirit spoke before, by the mouth of David”, Acts 1: 16.

• That is, the Holy Spirit had become a known Person to Peter. Peter recognised the Holy Spirit as a Divine Person. And they all were in great expectation as to His coming.

J.A.P. So when Stephen was called home, it says,

• “But being full of the Holy Spirit, having fixed his eyes on heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, Lo, I behold the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God”.

• That is how he went out.

G.R.C. That really links with Hebrews. Stephen’s view is the Hebrews view, is it not?

J.A.P. That is helpful, say more about it.

G.R.C. Well, it is the opened heavens. Hebrews has been called the book of the opened heavens. He saw the heavens opened, and he saw the glory of God and Jesus. It was really the holiest.

J.A.P. He was full of the Holy Spirit.

G.R.C. He was full of the Holy Spirit, and that is what we need to be. We need to be full of the Holy Spirit to apprehend what we are privileged to contemplate in the holiest.

• Stephen was physically on earth, but actually in spirit he was in the holiest.

J.McK. I was wondering about the body in chapter 10,

• “thou hast prepared me a body”, verse 5.

• And “through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all”.

G.R.C. As far as I have read, when the Lord’s body is referred to it stands related to the saints of this dispensation.

• His blood has a wider bearing; it bears on us, of course, in a particular way; but then it bears on the whole universe.

A.B.P. The Hebrew servant entered into that – he came in “with his body”. See the note on Exodus 21: 3.

G.R.C. Very good. “I love my master, my wife and my children”, Exodus 21: 5; and so in speaking of His body it says,

• “by which will we have been sanctified” – that is, the present heavenly company –

• “through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all”, Hebrews 10: 10.

• It is intended to affect us particularly. The Lord says:
  • “My body which is for you”.

Ques. How do we understand “the face of God”?

G.R.C. Well, I have often wished I knew –

• “now to appear before the face of God for us”, Hebrews 9: 24.

• So far as we are concerned, the face of God, of course, is seen in Jesus. It says:
  • “And his servants” [bondmen] “shall serve him, and they shall see his face”, Revelation 22: 4.

• “Serve” is priestly service there. It is the face of Jehovah Elohim; and, I would say, is seen in Jesus. But as to the verse you quote, I would like some help on it.

A.B.P. It must relate to expression of feelings in the countenance, do you think?

G.R.C. Very good.

1. “having therefore, brethren, boldness”, and,

2. “having a great priest over the house of God”, Hebrews 10: 19-21;

• these, in a way, summarise our last two readings, although in the reverse order. That is, because of the one great offering of Himself we have boldness for entering
  • “by the blood of Jesus, the new and living way which he has dedicated for us through the veil, that is, his flesh”;

• and then we have a great Priest. So that, having thus the benefit of His offering and His priesthood, we are exhorted to approach.

• And the qualifications on our side are a true heart and full assurance of faith.

• This exhortation is to encourage us to enter, to approach; but there is nothing here to indicate what occupies us when we are inside.

• We have to go to other passages to get an idea of what occupies us when we are within the veil; but then the order of things here is that, having entered, we come out in testimony.
  • “Let us hold fast the confession of the hope unwavering”; then,

  • “let us consider one another for provoking to love and good works”; and then,

  • “not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together”, Hebrews 10: 23-25.

• They are the features which would mark those who have been inside.

J.R.H. Does the passage in Hebrews 7: 25 show that approach is to be a characteristic matter with us?

• “Whence also he is able to save completely those who approach by hIm to God”.

G.R.C. Surely, and that is in the section of the book which deals with the greatness of His priesthood.

• “For such a high priest became us”; He is “always living to intercede for them” Hebrews 7: 25-26.

• He is a Priest in the power of an indissoluble life, so that He is able to save completely those who approach by Him to God. And that would bear on the word here,
  • “having a great priest”, Hebrews 10: 21.

• We need the two things; we need the boldness which springs from an appreciation of the offering of Himself, and then we need the present service of the great Priest.

F.K.C. In Jeremiah 30: 21 it says,

• “For who is this that engageth his heart to draw near unto me? saith Jehovah”.

• Would this answer that?

G.R.C. It would. Our calling is a marvellous thing! Our proper place is within the veil where Jesus has entered as Forerunner for us.

• Other families have other places in this great system, but our place is within. And the way is open at all times,
  • “He has dedicated for us through the veil, that is, his flesh”.

• And if we realised the wonder of this, we would be entering at all times. It is not once a day, nor twice a day, although
  • it is very important to do so specifically at least twice a day;

• but we would be entering at all available times. As the hymn says, “His presence is our home”.

Ques. Why are we so slow to take that truth on, and avail ourselves of our privilege to enter?

G.R.C. There may be more than one reason. We may be bound to earth and earthly things which crowd out these things, so that we do not make opportunities.

• On the other hand, we may not have apprehended properly the great completed work of Christ, nor appreciated that we have a great Priest over the house of God.

• I believe that if we laid hold of what has already engaged us in our previous readings, and judged earthly tendencies which would hold us down,

• we would rejoice with joy unspeakable to be able to enter at all times into the holy of holies;
  • and we would seek to be there as often and as much as we can. It is a most blessed thing!

• If you think of earthly majesty and greatness, it is very difficult to get into the presence of it. You would have to go through many intermediaries to arrive there.

• But think of the amazing thing which is before us here. The Lord Jesus has sat down on the right hand of the greatness on high. His place is unique, of course;

• nevertheless He has entered in as Forerunner for us; and we have access to the audience chamber, to the very presence of the majesty, at all times.

C.A.M. Will you say something about the veil? It says, “that is his flesh”. Would that mean that the truth of the incarnation is exceedingly great to us?

G.R.C. It involves the truth of the incarnation, and also the truth of His death. We could not enter in apart from His death.

• “Having therefore, brethren, boldness for entering into the holy of holies by the blood of Jesus”,

• – that involves His death – “the new” – and the note says ‘newly or recently made’, and I understand a sacrificial meaning attaches to it –

• “and living way which he has dedicated” – that word ‘dedicate’ would indicate that it is a costly matter –
  • “for us through the veil, that is, his flesh”.

• Now there would be no entry for us into the holiest but for His death. So “through the veil” involves the incarnation, and the death and entering in of Christ Himself.

• If we need confirmation of that we would go to the first chapter of Colossians.

• That chapter presents what is comparable to the holiest; not what it means from our side, our privilege, but what it means to the Fulness. It says,
  • “And you, who once were alienated and enemies in mind by wicked works, yet now has it reconciled in the body of his flesh through death”, Colossians 1: 21-22.

• That ‘it’ refers to the Fulness of the Godhead. That is the way the veil is referred to in Colossians.

J.S. It must mean very much to the heart of the blessed God for His people to desire to be in His presence.

G.R.C. Well, that is another point; and that is more the Colossian view – the delight of the Fulness to have us there, holy, unblamable and irreproachable before It.

• We can understand the delight of heaven, the delight of God, when Christ entered in.

• But it gives great joy to God, great joy indeed to the Fulness to see the saints entering in.

J.R.H. Would that imply the work of the Spirit in the soul being appreciated in heaven?

G.R.C. It is because we are His companions.

• “For both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one”, Hebrews 2: 11.

• We belong to Him. We belong to the One who has gone in. That involves the work of God in our souls, of course.

• But He has sanctified us at such a cost; our going in has involved the offering of His body once for all.

• So you can understand with what exultation God regards the entering in of the sanctified company. Jude touches it again,
  • “and to set you with exultation blameless before his glory”, Jude 24.

J.M. Why did you say we ought to go in twice a day at least?

G.R.C. That would link with the morning and evening oblation. We cannot properly function in connection with the morning and evening oblation unless we go inside.

W.T.L. Are we not inclined to leave this matter until Lord’s Day morning – the Supper and the service of God?

G.R.C. That is why we do not get on so well as we might on Lord’s Day morning. Christianity is a living system.

• If we learn to take up livingly and vitally the morning and evening oblation, we shall find it revolutionises our lives.

W.T.L. Is that why the word “continually” comes in in chapter 13?

• “By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise continually to God, that is, the fruit of the lips confessing his name”, Hebrews 13: 15.

G.R.C. Yes, exactly. Hebrews 2: 12 gives the assembly; but what we are considering now builds up to that.

• The second chapter is, from our side, the greatest point in the epistle, where it says,
  • “in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises”, Hebrews 2: 12;

• but we are leading up to that. Of course, we realise the presence of God in the assembly in a greater way than we could individually;

• but the great tiling in this chapter is to recognise that the immediate presence of God – the holy of holies – is open to us at all times.

J.P. Does the lack of our entering in lie in lack of these two qualifications –

1. the true heart, which would be the corrective to any moral defect;

2. and the full assurance of faith, as involving a full appreciation of the system and He who is over it?

G.R.C. I think that is a very just remark. What is encouraging about the qualifications is that it does not involve growth.

• What I mean is that entering the holiest is available to the youngest believer.

• The qualifications are moral ones – a true heart and full assurance of faith.

• The simplest believer can have these; he does not have to wait until he becomes a father according to John’s epistle before he enters the holiest. It is not to be put off at all.

C.D. It does involve state, does it not? –

• “sprinkled as to our hearts from a wicked conscience, and washed as to our body with pure water”.

G.R.C. Those two things are simply the gospel. The scripture read in Colossians confirms this,

• “if indeed ye abide in the faith founded and firm, and not moved away from the hope of the glad tidings”, Colossians 1: 23.

• The reception of the gospel secures this great privilege to us. The more there is growth, the better we shall appreciate what we contemplate inside;

• but do not let us think that the inside place belongs only to those advanced in the truth.

H.O.E. Does our reception in the presence of God, then, have nothing to do with anything we do?

G.R.C. What is needed on our side is what is said here; firstly, a true heart – that is a heart which accepts the truth.

• I accept the truth as to myself, that as after the flesh I am completely shut out, but that Christ has vicariously taken my place. I repent, therefore, in dust and ashes.

• It is remarkable how extensively the work of Christ is referred to in chapter 9: 13-14.
  • “For if the blood of goats and bulls, and a heifers ashes sprinkling the defiled, sanctifies for the purity of the flesh, how much rather shall the blood of the Christ, who by the eternal Spirit offered himself spotless to God, purify your conscience from dead works to worship the living God?”

• That is, the type in question is not only the day of atonement, but also the red heifer of Numbers 19, which is the most terrible picture of burning in the types. There is no such severe picture of burning as that.

• Cedarwood and hyssop and scarlet were cast into the burning; and the heifer’s ashes were the basis of the water of purification for sin.

• I think the true heart is one which accepts the application of those ashes.

• As to what I am after the flesh, the matter has been dealt with in utmost thoroughness in the One who took my place. My soul is moved as I think of it – what He bore for me, that burning.

• Then secondly, the full assurance of faith would be that I have unbounded confidence in Him and His finished work.

F.W. It is a new and living way.

G.R.C. Quite so. It is new in contrast to the old. The old way of approach to God was under the terms of the law; it was dead.

• But now we have a new way, and it is a living way. Of course, the word “living” involves the Holy Spirit, for the power of entry lies in the Spirit.

Ques. Does the new and living way indicate the greatness of what there is in verse 3 of Hebrews 8,

• “that this one also should have something which he may offer”?

• What had gone before was not sufficient.

G.R.C. No; and yet what had gone before affords remarkable instruction. In one sense there is contrast; but in another sense typical teaching.

• The types are written to give us an idea of what our cleansing or purification involved for Christ. And as that enters into our souls, and we accept it, we get a true heart.

• So there is the true heart; but, on the other hand, the full assurance of faith. I have confidence in the Lord Jesus, and in His finished work.

• That is the full assurance of faith. I have unbounded confidence in Him; and therefore if I have not boldness for entering the holiest, I am casting a slight on Him and His great work.

Rem. All that process in the soul can be gone through quickly.

G.R.C. Normally it is gone through at conversion. You go into it more deeply as time goes on; nevertheless a truly converted man would have a true heart and full assurance of faith. I have no doubt that this marked Paul.

Rem. I was only thinking of defilement coming in and my being hindered.

G.R.C. Things may come in to hinder, and we will come to that; but the first thing is to see that this is normal christianity – a true heart and full assurance of faith.

• But Colossians shows that you may get turned aside from that; and so it says,
  • “if indeed ye abide in the faith founded and firm, and not moved away from the hope of the glad tidings”, Colossians 1: 23.

• The glad tidings would give a man a true heart, and full assurance of faith; but we are to abide in the faith founded and firm.

• And then things, of course, get deeper and deeper with us. We understand more and more what a true heart means – in self judgment; and we value more and more Christ and His completed work.

A.J.D. So Saul of Tarsus immediately preached Jesus as the Son of God, involving a wholly new world opening up to him, to which he had access.

G.R.C. I would say that the man who preached in the synagogue Jesus, that He is the Son of God, had a true heart and full assurance of faith, and knew what the holiest was.

J.R.H. Would this link with what we have in the following chapter in Hebrews?

• “But without faith it is impossible to please him. For he that draws near to God must believe that he is”, Hebrews 11: 6.

G.R.C. That would fit in with what we are saying. The qualification on our side is a true heart and full assurance of faith.

• And the glad tidings, rightly accepted, puts us into possession of those two things. They deepen with us, and we are to abide in the faith of the glad tidings.

Ques. Would it be right to say that the section does not deal with state of soul, but with the unassailable right of every Christian?

G.R.C. I think if you come to state of soul it is another matter. We may allow things which hinder communion, but we have to go to other types for that.

• “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness” 1 John 1: 9.

• That would link with the bringing of the sin offerings in the early part of Leviticus. We have to make confession continually, but the provision is there. It says time and again in Leviticus 4,
  • “It shall be forgiven him”;

• there is no question of the thing remaining. The sacrifice of Christ is available as a remedy for every failure which involves loss of communion.

• Each such experience, if rightly taken up with God, would deepen the whole matter of the true heart and the full assurance of faith.

• And then there is the laver where we need to wash our hands and feet. The priests washed their hands and feet at the laver before serving. But this is not the laver here.

J.A.P. Is Romans 5: 1 confirmatory of what you are saying, in that faith comes first?

• “Therefore having been justified on the principle of faith, we have peace towards God through our Lord Jesus Christ; by whom we have also access by faith into this favour in which we stand, and we boast in hope of the glory of God”.

• Is that a similar thought, or does Hebrews 10 go further than that?

G.R.C. It is a similar idea, and helps as showing that the immediate result of accepting the gospel is access by faith into favour. That is as far as Romans takes us.

• Romans generally is not so much occupied with our going in. It is occupied with God coming out. And that is why it presents justification.

• Justification is connected with God coming out; sanctification with man going in.

• Hebrews deals with sanctification; but the same work which justifies us also sanctifies us.

• Hebrews is developing the sanctification side to encourage us to go in. Romans just touches it, that we have access by faith, but does not develop it.

• And so in Romans 3 Christ is set forth a mercy-seat. It is a question of the mercy-seat from the standpoint of God coming out.
  • God has manifested His righteousness as “towards all, and upon all those who believe”.

• It is God coming out to where we were: “in our sins” – with His righteousness, and showing forth Christ as a mercy-seat.

• So we can look into heaven; but it is not a question there of our going in, as Hebrews would suggest, but God coming out. God comes out to justify us, and to clear us of our guilt; but

• Hebrews shows us that the same work which justifies us has sanctified us – made us entirely fit to go in.

Ques. Is that the meaning of the word ‘boldness’?

G.R.C. Yes, it is a question of the apprehension of the work of Christ. We may not know how little we have apprehended it.

• We do not know much of the gospel yet, dear brethren, otherwise we would know more of the holiest.

Ques. I was wondering why we are so slow to apprehend, and go in, and see what God has provided for our approach.

G.R.C. We have so little apprehended the gospel – the magnificence of it! The greatness of Christ and the greatness of His offering – how little these are understood by us!

Rem. That has made us fit, if we have accepted it with a true heart.

G.R.C. Well, that gives us boldness. There must, of course, be a work of God in our souls.

• “For both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one”, Hebrews 2: 11.

• It involves the relationship, the kindred; but typically it involved also that they were sacrificially before God on the same basis as Aaron.

• Aaron and his sons laid their hands upon the burnt offering, the sin offering and the ram of consecration.

• That is, Christ has gone in, and is before God now on a basis upon which He can take us in with Him. So that we are before God on the same footing.

J.B. “For he received from God the Father honour and glory, such a voice being uttered to him by the excellent glory: This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight; and this voice we heard uttered from heaven, being with him on the holy mountain”, 2 Peter 1: 17-18.

• Such a one as Peter seeing this, and being there, would encourage us, even after his departure, to avail ourselves of the same privilege.

G.R.C. Yes. I think what Peter brings out as to the holy mount helps us to what we are to contemplate in the holiest.

J.A.P. You sail there was a difference between Romans and Hebrews in the teaching, and I think you said sanctification is brought forward in Hebrews. What do you mean by that? Many of us do not understand that.

G.R.C. I think justification relates to our need. We were guilty, and God comes out and justifies us.

• That is what we need – in the place of our need and guilt; and it is based on the same work, because He has set forth Christ Jesus as a mercy-seat, through faith in His blood. It is the very same work.

• But Hebrews shows us that that work has not only cleared us of all guilt, but has also cleansed us from all defilement, and fitted us in every way for the presence of God; and that is sanctification.

• Sanctification involves that we are fitted for the sanctuary.

F.W. I would like to ask, in relation to our bodies being washed, whether that would be the same as in John 13 – “Ye are clean”

• The work has been effected once and for all, so that, knowing that we are clean in God’s sight, we would seek to keep clean in a practical way.

G.R.C. I think the note here confirms that. The washing here is not the washing of the hands and feet at the laver.

• It is the washing of the body – the whole man; and in the type that took place once for all, in the sanctification of the priests.

• The very first act of sanctification was that Moses bathed Aaron and his sons with water. Now that is what is in mind.

• It bears on what was said to Peter: “What God has cleansed”, Acts 10: 15. It is an element of the gospel.

Rem. I think you said that, in entering the holy of holies, we are not exactly told in this scripture what we do there. Sometimes we relegate this thought only to prayer.

• Do you not think that entering the holy of holies with a purely meditative spirit, just to be there, not necessarily praying for a few moments and then stopping,

• but just remaining there to get some impressions of Divine Persons, is really in mind here?

G.R.C. That is more the thought of it. I do not think the holiest is the place of prayer.

• Prayer is at the incense altar; and at the burnt offering altar, too. Service generally is at those altars; we serve at those altars as belonging to the inside place – in the light of the inside place as in spirit in the inside place.

• I mean that, using the type, the service is at the altars; but contemplation, adoration, and so on, belong to the holiest of all.

• But for Christians the veil is no barrier. All service should be carried out in the light and joy of the holiest.

J.R.H. Would you say the ark of the covenant is the great Object in view in the holiest?

G.R.C. That is a great matter – the ark of the covenant. But the One who sits between the cherubim, and who has shone forth, is perhaps the greatest,

• “thou that sittest between the cherubim, shine forth”, Psalm 80: 1.

• Think of being in the presence of God as shining forth! That is what is in the first chapter of this epistle.

• The Son is the effulgence of God’s glory and the expression of His substance. Think of being in the presence of such an One!

Ques. Would it be right to say that in the holy of holies no word was ever spoken?

G.R.C. I would not like to think that we do not speak there, although it is not exactly speaking in the way of service.

• Moses went in to speak with Him. That was in the holiest. What was true in the Old Testament of Moses only, is true of us in a far greater way than Moses ever knew it.

• He was only dealing with the type, although God was there, of course, in the tabernacle of old. But we have the real thing, the true tabernacle.

• It says that Moses went in to speak “with Him”, not merely to speak to Him. He did not expect it to be a one-way conversation.

• He went in to speak with Him; but when he went in to speak with Him, it says,
  • “he heard the voice speaking to him from off the mercy-seat”, Numbers 7: 89.

• The holiest is a marvellous place!

J.R.H. What about David going in and sitting before Jehovah?

G.R.C. I think that bears on it. We can be in the holiest restfully.

• I believe sitting and prostration both mark the holiest. The elders in Revelation were sitting, and at times they were prostrate.

• I believe that is what marks the holiest; on the one side we are restful in the presence of supreme greatness and glory;

• but on the other hand, as fresh impressions of glory enter into our souls, we are prostrate.

A.J.D. Just to be there in holiness and without blame! It is a great thing to be restful in such a place, is it not?

G.R.C. We could not be there unless that were so. So in Colossians it says,

• “to present you holy and unblamable and irreproachable before it”, Colossians 1: 22.

• Think of being in the presence of “The Fulness”! The Fulness involves the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

• All the Fulness of the Godhead dwells in Christ bodily; and we are there holy and unblamable and irreproachable before the Fulness.

Ques. In Psalm 100: 2 it says, “Serve Jehovah with joy: come before his presence with exultation”.

• Would you tell us the difference between exultation and prostration?

G.R.C. I do not think we could be in such a blessed place without exultation; but this in no wise conflicts with the idea of prostration.

• In the doxology in Jude verse 24, it says,
  • “But to him that is able to keep you without stumbling, and to set you with exultation blameless before his glory”.

• That is the Divine side of it – Divine exultation, showing the joy God has in having us before Him.
  • “To the only God our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, might, and authority, from before the whole age, and now, and to all the ages. Amen”.

• That is the worship of a man who is in the holiest.

C.D. Would exultation be supported by Psalm 45: 15?

• “With joy and gladness shall they be brought; they shall enter into the king’s palace”.

G.R.C. That would be a similar idea. There it is the king’s palace. It does not go so far as the holiest. But it is the idea of exultation.

Ques. Would it be right to think of the end of Psalm 24 as acclamation?

• “Lift up your heads. Ye gates; yea, lift up, ye everlasting doors, and the king of glory shall come in”.

G.R.C. Oh yes. That is Christ going in. But then He goes in as Jehovah of hosts, so that hosts are linked with Him.

J.A.P. The verse you refer to in Numbers is very interesting; perhaps it should be read.

• “And when Moses went into the tent of meeting to speak with Him, then he heard the voice speaking to him from off the mercy-seat which was upon the ark of testimony, from between the two cherubim; and he spoke to Him”, Numbers 7: 89.

G.R.C. Beautiful, is it not, to think that in such an exalted place there can be such communications of holy intimacy?

• Moses goes in to speak with Him. Think of him having such a conversation, speaking with God – not a one-way conversation!

• And God took the initiative; God spoke to him. Think of how God would take the opportunity to speak to us as we enter His presence! And the voice spoke
  • “from between the two cherubim”, Num. 7: 89.

• The ark, speaking of the type, is the great piece of furniture in the holiest, and refers to Christ as the Centre of the system, the One from whom all the system takes character.

• He Himself being also the mercy-seat, and the cherubim overshadowing, the whole is a type of Christ. And there is the blood upon the mercy-seat.

• But then what is greater than that is that there is the One who sits between the cherubim; and He shines forth.
  • “For I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy-seat”, Leviticus 16: 2.

• That is what is involved, I think, in
  • “the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance”, Hebrews 1: 3.

• We come into the holiest in the appreciation of Him as the ark, and supported by Him as the great Priest;

• then we apprehend Him as the effulgence of God’s glory, and the expression of His substance. We have gone through the veil.

T.L.S. Is there any link with John 17 in all this?

G.R.C. John 17 is a remarkable link, because we can see allusions there to both altars and to the holiest. The Lord Jesus says,

• “I have glorified thee on the earth, I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it”, John 17: 4.

• That links with the burnt offering altar.

• But the prayer as a whole is at the incense altar. You can tell that by the way He refers to His own. He does not refer to them as having any natural or sinful origin;
  • “They were thine, and thou gavest them me”, verse 6.

• It is the view you get at the golden altar where all around are the boards covered with gold – the saints according to purpose. Then He says,
  • “Father, as to those whom thou hast given me, I desire that where I am they also may be with me, that they may behold my glory which thou hast given me”.

• I would say that that is the Lord’s way of referring to the holiest and our place within the veil.

Rem. He says, “Sanctify them by the truth: thy word is truth”, John 17: 17.

G.R.C. That, of course, shows how we need the ministry: “Thy word is truth”.

• Sanctification by truth means that we have come into the thing intelligently. According to this epistle we are
  • “sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all”, Hebrews 10: 10.

• That is the Divine side. Then, as to practical sanctification, we are sanctified in the Spirit, as both Paul and Peter tell us.

• But to be in the matter intelligently – and that is where growth would come in – we are sanctified by truth. Let us love it more.

J.R.H. Would not the truth in John 17 involve Paul’s ministry?

G.R.C. That is just what it does involve; and the work of ministry generally –

• “until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ”, Ephesians 4: 13.

• It is a question of arriving at full growth in regard to that which we are able to contemplate in the holiest; but we do not wait for full growth to go in.

• The moment we truly receive the gospel, the holiest is open to us.

J.R.H. And that is encouragement for the youngest believer.

J.B. In 2 Corinthians 12 Paul says,

• “I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago, (whether in the body I know not, or out of the body I know not, God knows;) such a one caught up to the third heaven”.

• Would that be like the holiest?

G.R.C. I would not like to speak too definitely, but there may be some link between the holiest and the third heaven.

• The holy of holies was the third part of the divine system – the innermost part – and the third heaven would refer to the highest elevation to which the creature can go.

• But, of course, 2 Corinthians 12 refers to Paul being caught up there. We are referring to what is more normal to christianity, whereas that is special. He did not know whether he was in the body or not.

• I am not saying that we should rule out such things, but he only speaks of it as happening fourteen years ago. He does not say that it happened more than once. But he does say,
  • “For whether we are beside ourselves, it is to God”, 2 Corinthians 5: 13,

• as though he was often beside himself. In fact, whenever he was free from other matters – the burdens of the testimony and the like –

• he was beside himself to God, which would I think link with entering the holiest in the way of which we are speaking.

F.K.C. Ecstasy does not seem to be common with us.

G.R.C. The Spirit is dwelling in us, and we should leave ourselves open for special things.

• But what we are speaking of now is normal, every-day christianity; the marvellousness of it! One feels one has only just begun to touch what life is according to God.

T.L.S. Would this help in the understanding and consideration of complete and final thoughts?

G.R.C. I doubt whether we ever receive the impress of the Divine mind in connection with completed thoughts except in the holiest.

• We can read them in scripture, and get them into our natural minds; but I believe it is in the holiest that we get impressions from God Himself as to His own thoughts.

• It says of Moses, as we have been noticing, that he heard a voice from off the mercy-seat speaking to him.

• Now have we heard that? Have we heard God unfolding His thoughts to us?

Rem. The truth becomes living to us then!

Ques. Moses says, “and we do not know with what we must serve Jehovah, until we come there”, Exodus 10: 26.

• I wondered if that referred to what you have been speaking of – the service at the altars, or the holiest?

G.R.C. He is speaking before they left Egypt. He would be referring to the service at the altars. The holiest is not exactly the place of service.

• We must not separate things too much in christianity, because we belong to the holiest and the veil forms no barrier for us; and we take up our service in the full light of the holiest.

• Nevertheless we have to distinguish; and the holiest is not exactly the place of service. You are there to speak with God, and to hear what He has to say. It is restful contemplation and adoration.

Ques. Is what we are speaking about connected with the individual?

G.R.C. Yes, but we must not limit the holiest to the individual side, because whatever we enjoy individually is enjoyed more in the assembly.

• But the primary point here is what is continuous, and he follows it by saying,
  • “not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together”, Hebrews 10: 25.

• But one feature of a man who habituates the holiest is that he will never absent himself from the assembly,

• because he knows that all he has enjoyed in the holiest will be confirmed and developed in a greater way in his soul when he is in the assembly.

E.B. In 2 Chronicles 5: 14 we have the references to the priests not being able to stand to do their service. I wondered if we may reach that point when we are together – that we may have nothing to say.

G.R.C. Yes, J.N.D. says in his hymn, “Voice by voice in silence fails”.

• There may come times in the worship when the prostration of soul is such that for a brief time silence prevails.

• But then the public service must go on, because it is due to God –
  • “Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me”, Psalm 50: 23.

• It is due, before angels and men, that God should be vocally praised in the assembly. So that the Spirit would never lead us to lapse into a permanent silence.

• The very fact that we reach a point where silence must prevail, would only lead to a greater burst of praise – greater response to God from all our hearts.

Rem. We have the expression “Let us” three times in this chapter. Does this indicate the filling out of christianity from the standpoint of the holy of holies?

G.R.C. It shows that while we can take this up in our personal relations, and our household relations, yet no one who takes up this privilege isolates himself. We enter the holiest as having love to all the saints.

Ques. So in coming to the morning meeting on Lord’s Day, should we bring the holiest with us?

G.R.C. I think we should come to the morning meeting as those who have been in the holiest. If it is so, we shall, as the service proceeds, have a remarkable experience of what the holiest is from the collective standpoint.

A.J.D. Would we see the expression in the assembly of what was observed in the holiest – God known in the assembly and the glory that belongs to Him?

G.R.C. In the assembly we are privileged to know the immediate presence of God, and

• all that we can touch individually in entering the holiest takes on a greater aspect when we enter the presence of God in assembly service.

• So you see, Ephesians refers to our being seated. In Hebrews it is the exhortation to enter, “let us approach”; and that is to govern us day by day.

• But in assembly, it is possible, through the quickening power of God, for persons to experience what it is to be sitting down together there –
  • “and has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus”, Ephesians 2: 6.

• Now that brings up another point. What is prominent in Hebrews is “the holies”. You will notice that “holy of” is in brackets – it is not in the original; whereas in Ephesians it is “the heavenlies”.

• But the term “heavenlies” is used once – in Hebrews 9: 23.
  • “It was necessary then that the figurative representations of the things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with sacrifices better than these”.

• “The heavenly things” might be translated “the heavenlies”; it is the very same word as used in Ephesians –
  • “the heavenlies themselves with sacrifices better than these”.

• So that the heavenlies and the holies are identical; but Hebrews is stressing the holiness of God’s presence, and bringing out the greatness and sacrifice of Christ which has fitted us for such a holy place.

• Ephesians, which is viewing things from the standpoint of purpose, stresses that it is the heavenlies. It does not stress the holiness of it, but the heavenliness of it – elevation.

J.S. And yet the same kind of language is brought forward in Ephesians. I was impressed with it. Paul says in chapter 3 verse 12,

• “in whom we have boldness and access in confidence by the faith of him”.

G.R.C. I would say that is the collective view of the holiest. It is what is our portion in the assembly.

• That chapter is full of the assembly – God showing to principalities and authorities in the heavenlies, His wisdom, through the assembly.
  • “Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and access in confidence by the faith of him”.

• It is the assembly as such now, having access to God in full revelation and in a most glorious way, and coming into the presence of God in His glory and majesty with a boldness which angels will never know.

• Angels have no comparable access; and that is how the principalities and authorities in the heavenlies learn. They observe the functioning of the assembly.

J.R.H. You said that entrance into the holiest is not a matter of growth; and yet can there be real spiritual growth apart from the entering into the holiest?

G.R.C. No, I believe that is the way of growth. If we habituate ourselves to the holiest, and receive Divine communications – whether we are thinking of the matter individually or assembly wise – there is nothing which so contributes to our growth.

A.J.D. So this matter of access at all times is a most important matter for us to get thoroughly embedded into our spiritual beings, so that we might frequent that place.

G.R.C. It is the way to begin the day. Do not begin the day asking for your needs to be met.

• Begin the day by going right into the holiest, where you are immediately set free from every thought of self and your own interests.

• You are in the presence of God, and you begin the day in the presence of God with His outlook on the whole of His interests in heaven and earth.

Rem. Do not the Lord’s words, as Man,

• “He wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the instructed”, Isaiah 50: 4,

• indicate that, as Man, He moved that way Himself.

G.R.C. I believe the way to begin and end the day is to go straight into the holiest. When I say end the day, I do not mean just before we go to bed.

J.R.H. Making it a matter of habit. You used an expression, in England, as to Judah being married to the sanctuary. You spoke about Paul being married to the sanctuary.

G.R.C. If we habituated the holiest, I am sure we would be married, in that sense, to nothing else. That is, the sanctuary would be our main concern in life.

J.P. One would like to get clear on these three expressions; the matter of the greatness, the holiest and the reference to the fulness in Colossians. Did I understand you to say that these are related thoughts?

G.R.C. The holiest stresses that it is the most holy place in the universe – it is the very presence of God.

• But the other two thoughts – the greatness and the fulness – both enter into the matter.

• Hebrews stresses the greatness and Colossians the fulness. I believe if we enter the holiest our spirits will be impressed by both.

G.H.P. Everything of self, or what is natural, is left outside.

G.R.C. That would be involved in going through the veil. Nothing which was dealt with in the death of Christ can enter there.

• There were cherubim in the veil; nothing of the flesh can pass the veil.

• I may endeavour to enter the holiest, but nothing can pass the veil which was dealt with in the death of Christ. And, if I have got a true heart, there will not be anything.

J.McK. I wanted to enquire as to the remark you made earlier as to what we see in the holiest – the Godhead glory. Does that go beyond what we have in Hebrews 2: 9, “but we see Jesus”?

G.R.C. The second chapter has in view Jesus as the great High Priest.

• “Crowned with glory and honour”, would be like Aaron clothed in the garment of glory and beauty, with a holy turban upon his head.
  • “But we see Jesus, who was made some little inferior to angels on account of the suffering of death”

• is a question of the priesthood and the offering of Himself – the suffering of death – and we see that He has gone in.

• It is not so great as chapter one, where it says,
  • “who being the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance”.

• That is what is involved in the One who sits between the cherubim shining forth. It is the shining forth of God.

• So that, in the holiest, we are not so much occupied with the official glories of Christ, great as they are.

• We have got the benefit of them. We have got the benefit of His lordship, and His priesthood;
  • but now we are engaged with Himself – the effulgence of God’s glory and the expression of His substance.

• It is God shining forth; it is a marvellous thing to be in the presence of God thus. In Christ’s present, glorified bodily condition, the glory of God is shining forth radiantly.

• Not, of course, that we see face to face yet, as Paul says elsewhere. We always have to remember that. Nevertheless what we can behold by the Spirit is marvellous.

Ques. Is the access individual or collective?

G.R.C. In Ephesians it is collective, “in whom we have boldness and access in confidence”.

Ques. Would being in the holiest be more than apprehending God in the incarnation?

G.R.C. The gospels were written by men who habituated the holiest. And they bring the glories of what they have seen of Christ in the holiest to bear upon what they had seen down here.

G.A.S. So in the holiest you participate in the thoughts of God, do you not? You share His delight in Christ, and His thoughts as to the assembly.

G.R.C. Quite so. I think that when it speaks of access it is referring to what we have from the Divine side.

• God has given us access; but the word “let us approach” is to encourage us to avail ourselves of it.

Ques. How do we encourage one another in this matter?

G.R.C. You are referring to verse 25,

• “but encouraging one another, and by so much the more as ye see the day drawing near”.

• The best way to encourage one another is to go in yourself, and to report how good it is! The first thing however is,
  • “Let us hold fast the confession of the hope”;

• that is, as you come out from the holiest. What you have enjoyed there is still, as to actuality, in hope.

Rem. Did not Moses’ face shine?

G.R.C. Moses’ face shone, and ours should shine. That is the point in Corinthians where there is another reference to the holiest –

• “But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image”.

• That is another view of the holiest. There it emphasises its effect on us.

• Colossians is what it means to the Fulness; Hebrews is what it means to us; but Corinthians gives its transforming effect.

Ques. Psalm 73: 17 says,

• “Until I went into the sanctuaries of God; then understood I their end”.

• What is the difference between the sanctuaries and the holiest?

G.R.C. The sanctuaries refer to the whole system, including the holiest.

• Not that Asaph could go into the holiest; but it should encourage us in our day, of course, for the scriptures were written for our instruction.

• The sanctuaries of God would refer to the court, the holy place, and the holiest; and you learn something about God and His ways in all of them, because there it is a question of His ways.

• In the court you get instruction as to His ways at the burnt offering altar; in the holy place you get further instruction; but the greatest place of instruction is the holiest itself.

F.K.C. The verse you refer to,

• “thou that sittest between the cherubim, shine forth”, Psalm 80: 1,

• is in that very section of the psalms – one of the psalms of Asaph.

G.R.C. Asaph was a remarkably intelligent man.

J.A.P. “If anyone speak – as oracles of God”, 1 Peter 4: 11. Does that involve that he must be in the holiest to get the word?

G.R.C. I would say so. I would say the oracles of God are what one hears in the holiest.

Ques. Do the exercises of Romans 7 and 8 enter into this matter of a true heart? Some of us are challenged in fact as to whether we do have a true heart.

G.R.C. They do. That is where we learn ourselves, and learn that we are but dust and ashes and come to a proper appreciation of the great offering of Christ. It is that which gives us a true heart.