I think we need to consider the Lord as Man. One would speak reverently, though confidently, for I am sure the more He is before us, and that we are engaged with Himself, the more the Spirit of God will help us.

• "The Word became flesh".

• It has been said that human definitions and statements about incarnation are to be very much avoided – they are very misleading – "Very God, very man, one Christ" is one of the definitions, but that is outside the Bible.
  • The scriptural statement is: "The Word became flesh".

• A divine and eternally existing Person entered into a condition in which He was not previously. For the term "flesh" is not a term of personality, it is a term of condition; for instance –
  • "Who, in the days of his flesh, having offered up both supplications", etc.

    Take another statement:

    "But if even we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know him no longer".

• It is plain from these scriptures that "flesh" is not a term of personality but of condition. One does not forget the first verse of the chapter:
  • "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".

• There are three things affirmed there –
  1. eternal existence,
  2. distinct personality,
  3. and absolute deity.

• Here is a divine Person – One who is God, He has become flesh, and the writer associating others with himself, says,
  • "And dwelt among us".

    In that lovely little parenthesis he further states:

    "And we have contemplated his glory".

• What a wonderful thing incarnation is! It brought a glory within the range of human contemplation that had never been seen before.

• He is the brightness, or effulgence, the outshining of God's glory, according to Hebrews 1, and He is the expression of divine substance.
  • "We have contemplated his glory".

    "A glory as of an only-begotten with a father".

• That, I apprehend, gives you the first great thought of Sonship

I am no scholar, but our brethren, who are scholars, tell us that the expression translated "only-begotten" has no thought of begetting in it, but that it means "only one",

• the same expression occurring in Genesis 22, where God says to Abraham,
  • "Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest".

• Whether in the Hebrew or the Greek, it is the identical expression that is translated in John 1: 14 – "only-begotten" – God's "only one".

• There we get Sonship. There is Christ – the Son as Man. There is a Man in relationship with God as an "only-begotten" [an only one] "with a Father", and there He is as Man, and as such, He is the peculiar and distinctive object of God's love.
  • God said to Him: "Thou art my beloved Son".

• And at His baptism, as He comes up out of the water, the heavens open and God's voice is heard:
  • "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found all my delight".

• Then there is another thing that God said about Him, as He brought Him into the world –
  • "I shall be to him Father: he shall be to me son".

• There is the relationship of Sonship! God says of that One:
  • "Thou art my Son: this day have I begotten thee"

Then there is another thing which belongs to sonship, and that is "holiness". The angel Gabriel said to the Virgin Mary,

• "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God".

So in these passages we see Him as Man in this wonderful relationship with God, the object in a peculiar way of divine affection; and it is also Man in holiness.

• Adam as created was man in innocence. But here it is Man in holiness – holiness as to His origin, as to His nature, as to His very being.
  • "That holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God".

Now what I desire is that we might get a conception in our souls as to what Sonship is, and for that we must look at it entirely apart from ourselves.

Rem. I suppose that is why you have referred to Christ so much.

J.P. Yes. I know that we are all prone to look at things and consider them in relation to ourselves. And that is why many of us remain in a fog instead of being in the sunshine.

• We are never able to think truly about the application of truth to ourselves until we have learned it in Christ.

• Many of us undertake to learn truth in connection with our experience, but we never learn truth really in that way; we must see it in Christ. So with Sonship. He is the Son of God.

• He will always be the Son of God to us pre-eminently; and He is the pattern of the heavenly family. He is the pattern of the many sons whom He is bringing to glory.

We might add another word or two about Christ. You find He is a different order of man, and that is a great point.

• In 1 Corinthians 15 you have two men – the first man and the second Man.

• The point is there is contrast as to the origin of the two, and you will find in scripture that origin and order go together, Your origin fixes your order.

• The first man is out of the earth, made of dust – that is his origin. And what is the order? Earthly, of course. His order agrees with his origin.

• What about the Second Man?
  • "The second man is out of heaven".

• And, if so, what is the order of His manhood? Heavenly!
  • "Such as he made of dust, such also those made of dust; and such as the heavenly one, such also the heavenly ones".

• Sonship was never set forth in the man out of the earth. It belongs exclusively to the second Man out of heaven.

We may see the Lord Jesus Christ as second Man in two conditions. I can give you one verse that embraces the two.

• Read Hebrews 2: 9. There He is made
  • "some little inferior to angels", that is His condition;

    and then, at the end of the verse, it says He is

    "crowned with glory and honour"

• – the same Man, the Second Man, the heavenly Man.

Sonship is not connected in Scripture with man in innocence, and surely it is not connected with man according to the flesh.

• If you and I are to come into sonship there must be new creation – that is obvious.

Now I would ask, Have you and I got the light of Sonship? Are we talking about Sonship without having the light of it in our souls? The light of Sonship is a wonderful thing.

Ques. Where is the light of it?

J.P. The light of it is wherever the faith of it is found.

• We are all the "sons of God", but do not leave out the next few words – "by faith in Christ Jesus".

• Your faith does not help me; have I the faith of it myself?

Ques. Do you get the thought of where He is the Firstborn among many brethren?

J.P. Yes. And we might look now a little at our birthplace. Where is the origin of the sons?

Rem. "If one died for all, then were all dead, that they which live", etc. Is that the beginning of it?

J.P. That is the object. "That they which live", etc., but it does not tell you how they live. Look at John 12, where the Lord said,

• "Except a grain of wheat" ['corn' should be 'grain'] "fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit".

• The "much fruit" is "the sons". Hebrews 2 gives you a kind of account of it –
  • "For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one".

• Note that little word "all". That is the derivation – the origin, the order.
  • "For which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren".

• Now in what scripture does He first call them brethren? In John 20. There He appeared to Mary Magdalene – to one person. It is quite a private affair there.

• Paul will give you a meeting in 1 Corinthians 14. But in John 20 it is to a woman He appears. He appeared to her and said,
  • "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go …" To whom? To "my brethren".

    There it is – "For which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren".

• The grain of wheat has fallen into the ground and died. There is the origin of sons – the death of Christ.
  • "If it die, it bringeth forth much fruit".

• There is where we have sprung from – His death.

"Brought into human bounds by incarnation's grace,
The holy One of God must still abide alone;
Until His death has formed the suited place,
For the 'much fruit' – Himself and they 'of One' ".

There is the new order and the new origin. The point of derivation was His death. Take Ephesians. There are two things predicated of Christ in Ephesians 2, and three things of the saints.

• Christ is not said to be quickened: He is said to be raised and seated

• The saints are quickened; raised and seated. That is the order – quickened, raised and seated.

• Raised up together takes you away from where you have been quickened. When you get up there in the heavenlies you are raised up and made to sit down; you are at ease; you are at home,
  • "Made to sit down in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus".

Continuation of Reading in the evening of same day.

J.P. I thought that we might proceed with the point we reached this afternoon in regard to our origin.

Let us look at the scripture which we read in Galatians 4. It is an advance really upon chapter 3 – the fact that we are all the sons of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

• We have seen that we could not be sons of God in connection with the flesh.

• But we might advance on that and say that we could not be regarded as sons of God in connection with our actual condition down here. Sonship could not be predicated of us in our actual condition.

• It can be predicated of us while our actual condition remains, but it could not be predicated of us in our actual condition.

Then in chapter 4 there is a further advance.

• "Because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father".

• That is the spirit of sonship. It is not only the present light of it in connection with faith, but there is the spirit of sonship. We are not constituted sons by the Spirit.

• It is because we are sons that God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

• In connection with the Lord Himself it is very beautiful. The first time the expression "Abba, Father", occurs, it is as used by the Lord Himself in the garden of Gethsemane.

Then we may look at sonship as it affects us here and now. I think there is great instruction as to that in the Epistle to the Galatians.

• It is very striking and interesting to see how the Spirit of God, through the Apostle Paul, brings the truth of sonship to bear upon those Galatian saints.

• We are exposed to the working of leaven, not only in the Corinthian form, but in the Galatian form.

• It is a very subtle thing, and I think that, if we have been in any measure touched by leaven as it is presented in the Epistle to the Galatians, our recovery, our deliverance from it is by the spirit of sonship.

• The apostle brings in the light of sonship and the spirit of sonship. It was brought in for the deliverance and correction of the saints in Galatia.

• You remember how in that epistle the Spirit of God speaks of the Jerusalem which is down here, and what characterises those who are in any way connected with it is bondage. And in contrast to that we have the statement about "the Jerusalem above", which is our mother, and free.

• I suppose many of us, by virtue not only of our lifelong associations but perhaps the training we have been brought up under, would recoil from anything in the shape of the Corinthian leaven.

• But the leaven in Galatia had a distinctly religious character, and many of us, while on our guard against what is called immoral, might be taken in by leaven when it presents itself in a religions form.

There is a very beautiful illustration in Matthew 17 of how sonship works in this connection, and where Peter is asked the question, Does your Master pay tribute? Peter says, "Yes"; he thought a great deal of his Master.

• Then the Lord asks Peter the question – when the kings of the earth levy tribute do they levy it on strangers or on their sons, and Peter had to say, "On strangers". The idea of the king's sons paying tribute! And the Lord answers,
  • "Then are the sons free".

• That shows that sonship sets the soul in perfect liberty, and it is liberty connected with Christ. In Galatians he says further on:
  • "Christ has set us free in freedom; stand fast therefore, and be not held again in a yoke of bondage".

In connection with the statement that when some heard Him say certain things they were ready to take the place of being His disciples, the Lord said:

• "If ye continue" [or abide] "in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;" [or truly] "and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free".

• If you read the text you will find that the freedom spoken of there is freedom from sin.

• But the Lord goes further. He speaks about the "house", and how the servant does not abide in it for ever, but the son abides for ever. Then He adds:
  • "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed".

• The knowledge of the "truth" will set you free from the bondage of sin, but the Son sets you free in connection with the house – He sets you in the freedom of the house of God.

• In sonship you have a permanent place in the house of God, and you are in perfect liberty.

Ques. Is the idea of the spirit of sonship formation in us?

J.P. Of course. "He hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts".

• That is where the Spirit of His Son is sent – the spirit of adoption. Romans expresses it thus:
  • "Ye have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father".

• I do not object to the expression "formation", because it is something in our hearts.

Ques. Crying "Abba, Father", is response, is it not?

J.P. It is. That is what sonship involves. It is not only on God's side as expressed in what God said to Abraham – "Thine only son whom thou lovest";

• and what God Himself expressed when Jesus was here – "This is my beloved Son" –

• not only that, but it is the response to it – "Abba, Father". The response to the love of God known and enjoyed. That is where we want to get to; then we shall be in real liberty.

Rem. It is the outgoing of the sons to the Father.

J.P. Yes. We might add the remark – just to keep the distinction clear – we are brethren in relation to Christ – He is not ashamed to call us His brethren, but we are not brethren of God, and we are not sons of Christ.

• We are brethren of Christ and sons of God, "Son" expresses the peculiar relationship in sonship between the soul and God.

Ques. Does the first come out in Galatians 4 –

• "God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts"?

J.P. Yes. We can only receive it on the ground of redemption. Redemption was necessary.

• God created man in responsibility, and God will never ignore the responsibility of man, so redemption came in, that He might redeem those under the law, and that we might receive adoption – sonship.

Ques. Is sonship for God's pleasure?

J.P. It certainly is, according to Ephesians 1.

Ques. What is the difference between sonship as it is presented in Galatians and in Ephesians?

J.P. In Galatians sonship comes in for recovery; in Ephesians it is no question of recovery. Sonship comes out in Ephesians normally and for the pleasure of God.

Ques. The thing itself is the same in each epistle, is it not?

J.P. Sonship is always sonship. But then you have it presented in scripture in different ways and connections, and we get instruction by observing the different way in which things are presented in scripture.

• It is no question of recovery in Ephesians. Some one has said that the two great normal epistles are Romans and Ephesians.

• But Galatians is evidently corrective and for recovery. Ye did run well; who stopped you? That is Galatians.
  • "O, foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you?"

• Sonship will put an end to the bewitchment and start you going if you have been "stopped".

Ques. Why is sonship brought in in Romans 8?

J.P. Because the great theme in Romans is the Spirit, and everything lies in the good of the Spirit.

• Sonship is alluded to, but it is not opened out in Romans.

• It is wonderful what breadth there is in Romans 8. The question there is not to receive the Spirit; it supposes that you have received the Spirit. The question is – Are you in the good of it? That is Romans 8.

• And so it goes on; it touches sonship; it touches the purpose of God, for all that lies within the good of the Spirit.

• But if you are intelligent, you would not expect to find in Romans the unfolding of new creation, or what it is to be in Christ; it is there, but you will go elsewhere for the unfolding of it.

Ques. How do you fit in what you spoke of in the afternoon – the quickening and raising – in relation to the way you speak of it now?

J.P. It is very interesting to take account of quickening in the New Testament scriptures, especially in the epistles.

• "Quickening" in Romans is not present, it is future. See chapter 8: 11 –
  • "He … shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you".

Ques. Does resurrection give us the position?

J.P. Resurrection in Romans is future, not present. When you come to Colossians you are

• "risen together with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead".

Ques. Ascension then would give us the position?

J.P. I should say so. Resurrection is a new condition in the old place; ascension is another place

• The Lord stayed down here for forty days after He was risen – a Man actually risen on the earth; in the old place, but in a new condition.

Ques. What about quickening in the other epistles?

J.P. You must take account of the difference between Colossians and Ephesians.

Ques. Would quickening come in relation to the grain falling into the ground and dying, and we associated with Him in life?

J.P. No doubt. The order of Colossians is reversed in Ephesians.

• The last thing in Colossians is the first thing in Ephesians, and the first thing in Ephesians is the last thing in Colossians.

• Quickened, raised, seated; that is Ephesians.

• But Colossians is – dead, buried, risen, then quickened.

• You are buried in Romans, not because you are dead, but you are buried to have part in His death.

• You are buried in Colossians because you are dead.

Rem. We want to know something more of the spirit of sonship.

J.P. We all need to know more about it. We have lectures on sonship and readings on sonship, but there is nothing like having the Spirit of God's Son in your heart, crying, Abba, Father.

• It is because ye are sons – not to make you such – God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Ques. Does the spirit of sonship in Galatians bring in activity, while in Ephesians we get the place of sonship?

J.P. I think it does. It brings in activity where most of us need it, and where many of us lack it. There is activity in your affections God-ward when you cry Abba, Father.

Ques. What kind of activity?

J.P. Ah! we want more of the activity of love – the spirit of sonship; it would greatly affect us.

• Individually and in our meetings we go sometimes as I imagine Pharaoh's chariots went in the bottom of the Red Sea when the wheels came off – they drove heavily.

• Part of my early days in London I was familiar with what is called hyper-Calvinistic Baptists. You could hear of election and pre-destination and fore-knowledge by the hour, but I never was amongst such a dead-and-alive lot.

• It is the spirit of sonship, crying, Abba, Father, that awakens your affection; there is freedom
  • "Jerusalem which is above is free".

• It connects you with God's centre where He is, and with all that wonderful system of things – the heavenly system – which finds its centre in Himself. Free! When the Son makes you free you are free indeed.

Ques. Is there any connection between spirit of sonship and worship?

J.P. No doubt of it – a most intimate connection.

Ques. Crying Abba, Father, is worship, is it not?

J.P. It might be said so.

Rem. In the spirit of sonship you would have perfect liberty in the presence of the Father.

J.P. You have the best kind of freedom. In His presence you are free in the sunshine of His love, and your heart is responsive to His love. Worship must be connected with that.

Rem. "Let my son go, that he may serve me" – that is the principle.

J.P. Yes. Many a beautiful statement in the Old Testament scriptures gives the principles of sonship.

Rem. What God wants is worship.

J.P. We have too much missed the true thought of service in these last days.

• We have been brought up to talk about activities man-ward being service, but the idea of service in scripture is very largely worship God-ward.

• So with the young Thessalonian converts, there was not only the work of faith, but there was the work of love. They served the living and the true God, and they served in the activities of love.

Rem. They must have learned God in the Son.

J.P. Yes; we learn it all in Him.

Ques. Is it brought out in Luke 15, where the sinner is brought into the house?

J.P. Certainly – he is brought in with the sandals on. If you went into a well-appointed Eastern house and saw a young man barefooted, you would say that is one of the servants; but if you met a young man in that house with sandals on, you would say that is one of the sons.

• He was brought in with the best robe, and the ring, and the sandals, too, were not lacking. God brings you into the house and puts the shoes on. "Put shoes on his feet".

Ques. It says in Galatians, "Jerusalem which is above is our mother". What is the thought in "our mother"?

J.P. It is the heavenly system of things connected with Christ that is your mother.

• The earthly system, which was the mother of a good many people, was represented by Hagar, who was bondservant.

• So Jerusalem is in bondage with her children; but the Jerusalem which is from above is in freedom with her children, and the children are in freedom with her.

Ques. The spirit of sonship is connected with a heavenly system.

J.P. Certainly. We are speaking of being in the good of it now, as it affects us here.

• But sonship belongs to heaven and to eternity. It is our calling on high. Our Authorised Version gives "high calling", but it is our "calling on high"; that is sonship – our heavenly calling,
  • "Holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling". All goes together.

Rem. Its home is future; it is active now.

J.P. Yes. Romans puts all these things in the future. We wait for the adoption in Romans; to wit, the redemption of our body.

• Meanwhile we have received the spirit of sonship, but the actuality of it is future and involves the redemption of our body – "shall quicken your mortal bodies", etc.

Rem. Then you make a distinction between reality and actuality.

J.P. A great distinction. Some one said a few years ago that Christianity is not a system of actualities, it is a system of divine spiritual realities. The actualities of Christianity belong to the future.

Rem. Referring to the spirit of sonship again, the measure in which one takes in the revelation of God in the Son would be the measure of the response formed in us. Is that right?

J.P. Well, it is in a way, But when you come to sonship you have to emphasise not simply the broad statement of the revelation of God, but you have to emphasise the point of divine love and relationship according to that love.

• I think that is what I would emphasise in regard to sonship. If it is simply the revelation of God as such – the only true God and the knowledge of the only true God, that stands more connected with the question of eternal life than with sonship.

• I am sure that sonship gives great prominence to the thought of God's love; it is a relationship in love. "Thou art my beloved Son". Sonship is in the "Beloved".

• The Spirit of God does not use these terms at random. We are accepted in the Beloved, graced in the Beloved.

• If you say, Why use that term there? I reply, You had better be simple about scripture, and what you do not understand the Lord may give you to understand; you may depend upon it that the right word there is – "Beloved".

Rem. The expression, "Abba, Father", is the response to divine affection.

J.P. Yes; it is the response of affection in your heart to God's affection.

• It is "Because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father".

• You may know more as a son than I know; that there are varying measures of spiritual intelligence no one would deny; but I do not see that these varying measures touch the question of sonship.

Rem. Then it is not a question of degree; it is a question of character.

J.P. It is a question of being a son. Then, if you are a son, it is a question of God sending forth the Spirit of His Son into your heart, crying, Abba, Father.

Ques. Do we get a divine principle in looking at Abraham when Isaac was weaned; he made a great feast?

J.P. Yes. Mr. Stoney used to speak of it as "coronation day". That is a great day in your soul's history. But on that day what an evil thing happens! Ishmael mocks! The flesh may mock, but, nevertheless, the coronation day is a great day in your spiritual history.

Rem. That comes out in Galatians.

J.P. It does indeed. The truth of sonship is wonderful and intensely practical. If we were in the good of it, I am sure that it would make a great change with us individually, and also when we come together. Alas! our meetings are not always marked by the dignity and liberty of sonship. They ought to be.

Ques. Do the sons say anything more than "Abba, Father"?

J.P. What do you mean by "say anything more than 'Abba, Father' "? It is a simple expression, but a very wonderful expression.

• "Abba, Father", is response to the heart of God. Think what that must have been to God's heart when those words went up from that blessed One in the garden of Gethsemane. What an hour of agony that was!

• We are so occupied with our difficulties and trials – we do, not give time to think of what His sorrows were when He said "Abba, Father".

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God".

• God is love, and He has come out in the revelation of Himself, that He might be known, and when He gets to be so known our hearts are responsive, and I am sure that divine delight fills the heart of God when He gets response.

• We have thought a great deal of activities. But that is not it. It is "Abba, Father". That is the music that delights the heart and ear of God.

We have not said much about the future; that is the end of everything.

• But I would like to speak a little about the rapture. I think the rapture is in a peculiar way connected with sonship. It is the taking of the sons to the place to which they belong.

• Do not think that one wants to make little of the resurrection, which is God's victory over sin and death here upon the earth; but the rapture – the sons going home – as the Lord said, "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself" – is that wonderful moment.

Ques. Is it the bringing of the many sons to glory?

J.P. That is Hebrews 2. But I think the rapture is peculiarly connected with the truth of sonship.

Ques. Is there no responsibility?

J.P. It is altogether a love affair.

Rem. They are wanted at the top.

J.P. They belong to the top. He has gone to prepare a place for us.

Ques. Is it the rapture in John 14?

J.P. Well, it is the same point, but the other side of it. John and 1 Thessalonians 4 are in accordance, but it is the lowest side in Thessalonians and the highest in John.

• It is from the point of His affection in John; it is from the point of their sorrow in Thessalonians –
  • "Wherefore encourage one another with these words".

• There is nothing like it for encouragement now under such circumstances.

Rem. There was sorrow in the hearts of His disciples when He said "I will come again".

J.P. Yes. So He says, "Let not your heart be troubled … I go to prepare a place for you".

• We are His companions, and we shall be His companions in heavenly glory. Of course it involves resurrection, because sonship in its completeness involves the entire person of the saint – spirit, soul, and body; all are embraced in sonship.

• There is first the resurrection or change. The rapture is not brought in in 1 Corinthians 15, there it is the victory of God down here over sin and death –
  • "Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" It is the same word in both in the Greek.

Ques. Does sonship extend beyond the assembly?

J.P. There is an expression I wanted to speak of, and what you say recalls it to me. I wanted to call your attention to sonship as characterising the assembly.

• We are familiar with the assembly as the body of Christ, the house of God, and all that. But there is a beautiful expression in Hebrews 12, which speaks of things we have "come to", and one is –
  • "we have come to the assembly of the firstborn".

• That is the assembly viewed as composed of the sons.

Ques. Is it the firstborn sons?

J.P. Yes, it is plural. "The assembly of the firstborn".

• Then mark! – "Who are enregistered". Where are they enregistered? In the place they belong to.

• When the Roman emperor called for a census Joseph had to go down to a certain place where his name was enregistered.

• We are going directly to where our names are enregistered – the sons are going home.

I think that you will find that sonship in its ultimate results is not so much connected with display down here as it is with enjoyment up there.

• "Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me, for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world".

Rem. The whole creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God.

J.P. In Romans 8 we have, "For the anxious looking out of the creature expects the revelation of the sons of God".

• That is one thing. Now we will look at the other:
  • "For the creature has been made subject to vanity, not of its will, but by reason of him who has subjected the same, in hope that the creature itself also shall be set free from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God".

• The liberty of the glory of the children. The liberty of the revelation of the sons. The sons are the children. They are the same persons; it is only the difference in the way in which the Spirit of God speaks of them.

Things are set in certain distinctions in scripture, and those distinctions at the present time are important.

• But lines that are distinct now converge in the future; they come together, and the line of the children and the line of the sons converge by-and-by

• Anybody can observe the distinction, and it is not a distinction without a difference. We are all the sons of God in Christ Jesus; but can you find me a passage where we are said to be the children of God in Christ Jesus? There is not one.

• Sonship was God's primary thought for man, and so at last, when all the dispensations have closed, we find, when we come to the eternal state, man in that relationship with God. God says,
  • "I will be to him for God; he shall be to me for son".

• There is sonship at last and for ever.

Rem. You said that sonship was more connected with enjoyment than with display.

J.P. I think it is primarily, but we get also "the revelation of the sons of God".

Rem. In Ephesians we have, "That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Jesus Christ". That is display, is it not?

J.P. Yes, "To show the exceeding riches of his grace".

Our time would not permit us to go into much detail with regard to the body of the epistle, but we can readily see that we find ourselves in the very opening of it in the presence of the counsels or purposes of God. Indeed, so far as the saints are concerned, the highest note is struck.

• "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ".

• And this is according to His choosing, or His choice of us –
  • "according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world … having marked us out beforehand for sonship" [or adoption].

• Our Authorised Version has wrongly put the adoption of children, and in this way the current doctrine in Christendom is that we are children of God by adoption. But this is not the truth.

• If we are children of God, we are so by virtue of having been begotten or born of God. What we get in the original is,
  • "having marked us out beforehand for adoption"

• – adoption and sonship represent one and the same word in the Greek.

As to our Lord Jesus Christ, this epistle views Him distinctly as Man. I do not think you could find one single statement in it that speaks of Him as a divine Person.

• He is a divine Person. He is always and everywhere a divine Person, but Ephesians views Him distinctively as Man.

• The first sight of it will speak to us as to this in a very simple way – He is viewed as having been dead.

• We are not told about His death or the manner of it; but as having been dead, He is raised up and seated in the heavenlies, and in connection with His being raised up and seated we have the most wonderful expression of the power of God to be found in scripture. It far exceeds creation – it is the climax of the power of God.

• He is raised up and He is seated, and the Spirit of God labours to set forth the greatness of His exaltation. In the end of chapter 1 we get –
  • "and what the surpassing greatness of his power … above every principality, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in that to come".

• Marvellous statement! Then, with the Lord looked at in this wonderful place of supreme exaltation, we have the church – the Assembly – brought in.
  • "And has put all things under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all".

• You only get a right thought of the Assembly as His body as you connect the Assembly with Himself in His place of exaltation as Man.

Ques. Is not that necessary in connection with what was suggested at the beginning – that the epistle takes in the universe?

J.P. Yes. It says in the next chapter,

• "Above all the heavens, that he might fill all things".

• But here it is the wonderful position of the Assembly in relation to Him as thus raised and seated in the heavenlies in Him, as this scripture describes.

Ques. Is the Assembly viewed here on the privilege side?

J.P. Surely; the force of the word "fulness" is "complement", just as Eve was the complement of Adam, and was adequate to set forth all that marked and characterised Adam in the place which God had put him,

• so the Assembly is the fulness of Him that fills all in all and is viewed as adequate to set forth all that characterises Him.

• I think we do well to take note of what the Spirit of God sets before us in this epistle. It is just what God has in view in the administration of the fulness of times, when He is going to head up all things in the Christ, both in heaven and upon the earth. God has in view the marvellous display that will characterise His universe at that time.

• I think it is so important that we should have these things distinctly before us. The tendency amongst us is to drop down to something more contracted than what God has before Him.

Ques. What comes out in the Assembly now?

J.P. This epistle is not much occupied with that; it is more occupied with what is to come out in the Assembly by-and-by.

• So, if we are quickened together and raised up together, and made to sit down together in the heavenlies, what is in view?
  • "That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness towards us in Christ Jesus".

• I think that Colossians gives us more what is to come out in the saints now, not in the way of testimony exactly, but what is to come out in the saints now for the satisfaction of the heart of God.

But the verses we have read in Ephesians 4: 7-16 are very largely connected with what is present.

• There will not be any need for gifts by-and-by; it is here and now that we need the gifts, and that we ought to be affected by the gifts; but it is all in view of what is coming.

• What I mean is that it is so important that our souls should come into the largeness of this epistle. We often go in for present results, and rightly, in a way, and the Lord, of course, helps us on every line that it is possible for Him to help us on, but we do not go in much for the largeness of what God has in view.

Ques. Do you mean we are qualifying now for the future?

J.P. Exactly. That is what makes the present so important. The tendency is always to drop down to ourselves.

• See the defective gospel that is preached. Why? Because it only regards the need of man. And we do not get over this tendency easily; it hangs on us many a day.

• Even as to truth in regard to the Assembly, we take it up too much in regard to ourselves. That is the dead fly in the apothecary's pot of ointment which hinders.

Ques. Why do you say that Christ in this epistle is presented as Man?

J.P. Well, the first thing is to be sure that it is a fact. Then look to the Lord, and He will give you understanding of the fact.

• I do not want you to take it because we say so, and if you look to Him, I think you will find that it is so, that this epistle presents Christ pre-eminently as Man, and that in the largest way known even to scripture.

Rem. Looking at Him as a divine Person, there is no need for a helpmeet.

J.P. Of course not.

Rem. It is in regard to Him as Man that the position of the Assembly is marked out.

J.P. It is. As a beloved servant of the Lord – now with Him – remarked a few years ago, there is a great deal of confusion in the minds of many of the saints between union with Christ looked at distinctively as Man and association with Him – the same Person – but looked at as Son of God.

Ques. Which do you get in this epistle?

J.P. You get a bit of both. You get sonship in this epistle as well as the truth of union with Christ, and you get the bride. But still there is distinction.

Ques. Is sonship communion with the Son of God?

J.P. Sonship is association with the Son of God. We shall be His companions in heavenly glory.

• There are two things – I do not mean separate, but distinct –
  • there is the bride, the Lamb's wife – that is the Assembly;

  • but then there is the Assembly of the firstborn ones – "that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren".

Well, to come to the verses we have read, the first point is – Christ is seen as having ascended.

• There is a certain difference between the way the Spirit of God speaks of Him in chapter 1 and in chapter 4. It is, as the Spirit tells us in chapter 1, the surpassing greatness of God's power that raises Him, and then, being raised, He is seated. God sets Him down at His right, hand in the heavenlies.

• But in chapter 4 He has ascended. If God makes a distinction, you may depend upon it there is a difference, and there is spiritual profit in being able to take account of it.

• The language and the manner of it employed in the epistle almost touches the Gospel of John. We all know that what is peculiar to John is that His death is presented as "commandment" on the part of the Father and of obedience on His part; for He is sent here not to do His own will, but the will of Him that sent Him, and that goes on to His death. He lays down His life – no one takes it from Him.

• He has power – authority – to lay it down and to take it again. He says,
  • "This commandment have I received of my Father …"

• So His resurrection there is His own act. You get three statements in the New Testament about the resurrection of the Lord.

1. One we have just read in Ephesians 1, it is the surpassing greatness of God's power.

2. Then in Romans 6 He is "raised from the dead by the glory of the Father".

3. And then in John He raises His own body. Chapter 2: 19-22.

And so with ascension. While you get ascension in Mark and Luke, there is no ascension in Matthew.

• In Mark and Luke He is carried up, He is taken up; but in John He is not "carried up" or "taken up". He tells Mary Magdalene,
  "Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend".

I know that this is commonly accounted for on the ground that He, as a divine Person, had a perfect right to ascend. Of course He had as a divine Person. He is God, equal with the Father and with the eternal Spirit.

• But I venture to think that in thus accounting for His ascension there is a point missed.

Ques. Is it not as a divine Person He raises Himself from the dead?

J.P. I do not think that is just the way scripture puts it.

Rem. We are waiting for the point that you say is "missed".

J.P. Well, it is as to the statement – "I ascend".

• Here in chapter 4 we find that there are three things predicated of Him as to what He has accomplished:

1. first, He has "ascended up on high";

2. secondly, He has led captivity captive;

3. thirdly, He has given gifts to men.

• Of course He is a divine Person; but I think what is set forth of Him in Ephesians is more the wonderful place He has as Man, I think that is the point of the Spirit there.

Ques. What title would you give Him in that connection? I mean in connection with Him ascending as Man.

J.P. He is the second Man out of heaven. He was that when He was here; He is always and ever that.

• God created the first man here in innocence.

• But God has brought in a Man down here who has not only glorified God as God, who has taken up every responsibility that ever attached to man here, and has perfectly met every claim of God and glorified God;

• but over and above that God has brought in a Man who belongs to heaven, and after that Man had met every claim of God down here and filled up everything in respect of human responsibility, He has a perfect right to heaven.

Ques. Then the second Man out of heaven goes into heaven, whence He came?

J.P. He does. That is what one has always felt about John's gospel; one has always felt that resurrection could not be the terminus of things in John's gospel.

• The One who is seen in John's gospel is the second Man out of heaven, and He is bound to go back there.

• So if you read the gospel carefully, you need not be surprised to find twenty-one mentions of the ascension of the Lord in it,
  • "What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?"

    "I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father", etc.

These five chapters in John – 13-17 – are all in the light of His ascension. Take chapter 13:

• "When Jesus knew that his hour was come"

• – that what? That He should go to the cross? that He should die? that He should be raised? He does not say so, but that
  • "he should depart out of this world unto the Father".

• That is the great terminus in John. It belongs to Him, it is part of His glory. So He said, "I ascend". So the Spirit says here,
  • "he ascended",

    "he led captivity captive",

    "he has received gifts for men".

• Then the Spirit tells us of the gifts He has given from the wonderful place that He has.

Rem. It is from that place the gifts are given.

J.P. Yes, it is from that position they are given, but they are given in view of the Assembly being seated together with Him. We are made to sit down together in Him now – a present spiritual reality.

• But what is present spiritual reality is going to become an eternal actuality. We shall be seated with Him. It is in view of that and the wonderful position of the Assembly in relation to Him, when the Assembly is found actually in the heavenlies with Christ.

• In Revelation 12, there is war in heaven, Michael and his angels fight against the dragon. Satan is cast down. What now?

• The moment has come for the church – the Assembly – the complement of Him that fills all in all. Then there is the song –
  • "Now is come salvation", etc.

• That is to say, when the Assembly actually goes into the heavenlies with Christ that will be the inauguration of that marvellous day – the administration of the fulness of the times, everything headed up in heaven and upon earth in Christ.

• It is all in view of that, I think that much spiritual enlargement results to us in the apprehension of it, and we get great spiritual encouragement in the contemplation of it.

• We sometimes think things are going to the bad; no, they are going to the good! When you get an Ephesian view of things it is simply glorious, and we need it, beloved.

Then the Spirit tells us the kind of gifts which the ascended Man has given. He has given some prophets, some evangelists and some pastors and teachers. Wonderful gifts!

• I do not think it is too much to say that we are in the good of all the gifts now. In this way, I mean –
  • Has not the Spirit given us the record of the ministry of the apostles and prophets? And then there are, thank God, still some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers. What for?

• For the perfecting of the saints, with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the building up of the body of Christ; He has given them. And what is the goal?
  • "Until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God".

• That is a wonderful statement! The gifts are given, and as far as they are in operation, in the power of the Spirit, the saints are being brought to this point –
  • "Until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God".

• Do not let us miss the truth. We have been so slipshod in our reading that we have failed to distinguish between the Son as a divine Person in relation to the Father and as a divine Person as the Son of God.

Ques. What importance do you attach to the title "Son of man" in John 3: 13?

J.P. It is very beautiful how the Lord speaks of Himself, especially in John's gospel, almost invariably as the Son of man.

• Indeed, there is only one instance in John of His declaring Himself fully to any one as the Son of God and that is in chapter 9: 35.

• But almost invariably He speaks of Himself as the Son of man. The Son of man is the Son of God, and the Son of God is the Son of man, one and the same Person, both viewing Him as Man, one in relation to God and the other in relation to man.

• It is very beautiful and very instructive to take account of how He is spoken of. I think there is nothing, perhaps, in all the range of scripture that ought to demand and engage our attention and interest us as the way that Christ is spoken of.

Ques. Tell us the difference; here it is the knowledge of the Son of God, and in Peter it is the knowledge of Jesus our Lord?

J.P. Peter's line is the saints down here in relation to certain things that belong to their responsible life and path down here, and that is all covered by the expression,

• "Grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ".

• It is not that Peter did not know Him as the Son of God. I am sure he did, but while he does not in exact terms speak of Him in that way in his epistle, yet he does speak of Him as the
  • "living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious".

• Who is that One? That is Jesus, the Son of God; He is the living stone,
  • "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God".

    The Lord said unto him,

    "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven".

Rem. There are four things in that verse you refer to. One is, the unity of the faith; next, "the knowledge of the Son of God"; then a perfect man, and then the fulness of Christ. What is your thought in connection with these four?

J.P. The full-grown man is a man who has every faculty and member developed. He is a man in whom there is nothing lacking.

• The saints are to arrive at the stature of a full grown man – that is, there is to be in them the expression and the answer to everything that characterises Him –
  • "at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ".

• You see it is a qualifying process now. With such stress laid on this point there cannot be perfect answer to it now; that can only be answered to fully in view of the wonderful place of the Assembly in relation to Christ and in relation to His filling all things. Christ will fill all things in and through the Assembly, and it is in view of that.

• I think a different sense of things will come into your soul when you lay hold of the fact that what is going on now is with reference to that coming day. It will impart a heavenly dignity to everything you do here, because you are not achieving results for earth nor for man, nor for time; you have got something before you much greater than all that.

• You have before you the coming ages – the administration of the fulness of times. You have before the vision of your soul Christ as the One who has ascended above the heavens and who is to fill all things, and you have the saints as united to Him.

• And then we have the operation of the gifts now until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God.

• One has often been asked – Is this arrival now or in the future? Well, if you speak of all the saints, it is in the future; but for you and me it ought to be now.

Rem. It is meant for all the saints now.

J.P. It is the one divine standard, for all the saints, the great ultimatum for every saint at all times, nothing less. We ought to have nothing less before us than arriving at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God.

Rem. In that way there would be the formation of the helpmeet morally.

J.P. Yes, it is so. It may seem a little difficult for our minds to take this up as applying to ourselves now, and here, though as to all saints we have to take it up in relation to the last moment.

Rem. The point is that there is a divine standard set up and we have to reach that.

J.P. Yes, it seems to me that the worse things get in an outward way, so much the more important and precious this becomes.

Rem. It is all the more needed.

J.P. It is on the principle of that wonderful statement in Isaiah. When the enemy comes in like a flood the Spirit of Jehovah will lift up a standard against him.

• Is there anything around us that seems to indicate the enemy coming in like a flood? That is the time to look for the standard, to look for the banner which the Spirit of God has lifted up – a divine standard, a rallying-point for the saints, when the enemy comes in like a flood.

• Do you think there will be more conflict? There may be, but that is not the point. The point is the divine standard.

• I know we are great hands for details and persons, and often, in those times when the enemy seems to becoming in, we look round at that one and the other one. But what we want is to keep our eyes on the divine standard, the divine banner.

• If you hear of this one or that one having gone off into a division, it is for want of this unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God.

Ques. Have you anything to say in connection with hearing the voice of Christ, because the standard that you have been referring to is brought about by the ministry of Christ through the gifts?

J.P. I think the test is what is stated here. There are three things stated in connection with the gifts.

• There is ministry among you – is it for the perfecting of the saints? Is it with a view to the work of the ministry? With a view to the edifying of the body of Christ?

• That is the test; it must be the test. Every man who takes any kind of a place in the way of ministry among the saints of God must come under that test.

Ques. Would you say the evangelist is for the saints?

J.P. Yes. The apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers are all in it.

• The test of the evangelist also is the perfecting of the saints, the work of the ministry the edifying of the body of Christ.

• Some have got wrong ideas about evangelists. I am not an evangelist. I have been trying to preach the gospel for forty-six years, but I do not claim to be an evangelist.

• But one has sometimes to do the work of an evangelist, like Timothy; a kind of maid-of-all-work. The idea of an evangelist now is a man thoroughly independent of every other man except himself!

Rem. That, is not the unity of the faith.

J.P. No, indeed; every man's ministry, whatever his ministry may be, must come under the test.

• The best proof that I can give to any one that I have a gift from Christ is the fact that I so regard Christ, that I regard all that is so near and dear to Him.

• There could be nothing nearer to Him than His Assembly – it is His complement. It is as near to Christ as Eve was to Adam. "Ishshah" was derived from "Ish"; and so with the Assembly; we are members of His body – flesh and bones is put there but should not be there – we are quickened together with Him.

• That is a wonderful statement – raised up together, made to sit down together. We could not be His body if we had not been quickened together with Him, raised up, and made to sit down in Him.

Ques. Is each one of the four gifts referred to here for the perfecting of the saints?

J.P. Every one, and for the edifying of the body. If God converts a sinner now, He converts him in view of putting that sinner in the body and building up the body.

• I can speak more feelingly, perhaps, than you can about these things. I have been a parson, and have been sent here and sent there, and have been told: 'Now, remember the great interests of our church; we want to build up our church'. Our humbug, I say now! It is His body.

• The best proof any one can give that he has got any gift from Christ is that he is concerned about Christ's body, interested in and devoted to the interests of the saints, and the ministry, and the edifying of the body of Christ.

Rem. Paul was the great evangelist: "That I might preach him among the nations".

J.P. Whatever marked Christ in connection with the glad tidings, or with the church, must in some measure mark us; if not, there is something wrong. He loved the church and delivered Himself up for it.

Rem. The shepherding spirit should be in every saint.

J.P. Yes, it should be; but especially in those mentioned here as gifts given by the ascended Christ.

"A full-grown man". It is in order that we may be no longer babes, tossed and carried about – like a little child who cannot stand very steady; you would not set it in a windy place where the wind might strike it and blow it over, though you might be able to keep your own feet there.

• We are exhorted to grow up in order that we may be
  • "no longer babes, tossed and carried about by every wind of that teaching which is in the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning, with a view to systematised error".

• We do well to ponder these words. Some of us have lived long enough to see saints blown over, carried about by this wind and that wind – this or that teaching "which is in the sleight of men".
  • "But" – the Spirit of God always presents the other side – "but, holding the truth in love".

• What a great thing that is! You do not want to hold it in anything else, do you? Well, how are you holding it? Are you holding it in a harsh, ungracious spirit, or are you holding it in love?

• Love is not making friends with everybody. Love rejoiceth not in iniquity, it rejoiceth in the truth. Speaking morally and spiritually, there is nothing that has such a backbone in it as love. It is not soft, gushing sentimentality.
  • "Holding the truth in love, we may grow up to him in all things".

    That is the standard.

    "Who is the head, the Christ: from whom the whole body, fitted together, and connected by every joint of supply, according to the working in its measure of each one part, works for itself the increase of the body to its self-building up in love".

• So there are two forms of edifying. There is the edification by the gifts, and there is the edification in the way just described. The saints, holding the truth in love, grow up to Him in all things, who is the Head.

• Then they edify themselves – "to its self-building up in love". It is self-edification in love.

You may find a few saints here or there where there is no gift.

• You may ask them, Have you got any shepherds or teachers? No. Any evangelists? No. How, then, are you getting on?

• I know how some of them get on. Meetings are not so thick in America as they are in Great Britain in some places. But in many there is edification. They not only hold on their way, but they are being built up, they are self-edified.

May the Lord be pleased, beloved brethren, to give us the light of these things in our souls, and to give us the encouragement of them in a day like this!