My Brethren - Ministry - J. Taylor

READING 5

THE DIVINE STANDARD OF SERVICE (5)
2 Corinthians 5: 10-21; 6:1-4

READING 5
THE DIVINE STANDARD OF SERVICE (5) 2 Corinthians 5: 10-21; 6:1-4

J.T. We dealt yesterday afternoon on the endurance that marked the apostle and the fragile nature of the vessel in which he had the treasure. It is to be noted that

"we have this treasure in earthen vessels", chapter 4: 7,

is the responsible person speaking. He would be in other circumstances later, but for the moment he had the treasure in an earthen vessel, one easily broken.

But the very fragile nature of the vessel only cast him all the more on God, so that he went through with his ministry and did not faint, having obtained mercy. At times he came near to breaking point, but elsewhere we learn he went right through and finished his course.

He said to Timothy that the time of his offering up was at hand, so that, although the vessel was so fragile and so exposed, the very weakness inspiring confidence and trust in God, yet he goes through until the time appointed, for he finished his course.

"I am already being poured out", he said to Timothy, 2 Timothy 4: 6,

as if the principle of the "dying of Jesus", 2 Corinthians 4: 10, marked him. He was being poured out before he died literally.

God is pleased to take up in His service men in weak mortal bodies to show "that the surpassingness of the power", verse 7, is of Him and not from us.

Then there was the outlook of the apostle at the end of chapter 4, verse 18,

"We look not at the things that are seen, but at the things that are not seen; for the things that are seen are for a time, but those that are not seen eternal".

Looking at eternal things enabled him to speak of the light affliction which was but for a moment, working a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory. This is an immense thing for the servant in his afflictions; it enables him to regard them, however heavy, as light and only for a moment.
If we are able to look into eternity, the present is but a very brief moment. The outward man was perishing and the inward man was being renewed. It was a daily thing and that which was to abide was being renewed. There was daily renewal.

H.D'A.C. The renewing of the inward man can only take place as we look at the things eternal and unseen.

J.T. I suppose you get a conception of what they are by looking, and the formation is in keeping with what you see. The things presented for faith are intended to produce a conception in us, so that the formation is according to that, would you say?

H.D'A.C. Yes; it works both ways. The more there is this renewing of the inward man, the more we look at the things unseen and eternal, and the more we look at those things, the more the work is unhindered and there is result in the inward man.

J.T. Just so. So that the formation is in relation to the conception one has.

In being brought up in this world people have a conception of it; the thing they are aiming at is presented to them, and their education is to that end.
So in regard of what we are being brought into, we look at the things, and understand what we are being formed for; we shall thus not be unaccustomed to or unfit for them, as it says,
- "Now he that has wrought us for this very thing is God", verse 5.

C.G.R. Does not the outward man involve more than the body?

J.T. The mortal element enters into it, but the apostle alludes to himself, to the whole outward make-up, including his body; that was perishing.

H.E.S. Are there not two thoughts before the apostle, on the one hand, confidence in God that he would be carried right through, and on the other hand, the exercise that he might be carried through suitably to the ministry he had received?

J.T. Indeed, so he says here, "zealous, whether present or absent, to be agreeable to him".

Eu.R. Now does the earnest of the Spirit come in in verse 5?

J.T. The apostle brings in in principle all that we shall come into literally. The 'earnest' would mean that we have the thing in principle, but there is the formation which has to be regarded as distinct from the earnest.

The renewal of the inner man is in view and what we are coming into, so that we are fitted for it, and I believe it is included in the statement,
- "He that has wrought us for this very thing is God".
Then He has given us the earnest of the Spirit. It is to keep us on the level of what we are coming into as to our enjoyment, while we are down here.

Eu.R. Does the earnest of the Spirit involve the relationship of sons?

J.T. No doubt, but he is occupied here with our house which is from heaven, so that the earnest would be that which you go on with at the present time.

In chapter 1 the Spirit is alluded to as the earnest in our hearts; that is for enjoyment.
But it is brought in here to show that we are not without income in relation to the great future that is before us. The earnest is an income whereby we are maintained now in proper spiritual dignity.

F.H.B. "He that has wrought us for this very thing is God"

would indicate the whole work of God in us. It is with a view to that which is eternal.

W.C.G. Would it be right to suggest two lines? There is the line of the work of God, new creation, coming into view; and then there is the line of responsibility, ending with the judgment-seat.

J.T. Yes; those two things work together. The one has to do with us in responsibility here, the other is the sovereign work of God, so that if any one be in Christ it is new creation, and new creation is God's work.

A.H.W. Will you say how we arrive at the conclusion of mind, so that we go on and nothing makes us give up?

J.T. "We faint not", chapter 4: 1; that is the attitude of your mind, the allusion being, as we remarked yesterday, to Gideon.

There was no thought at all in him or his three hundred men of giving up. They felt their weakness, but in result they accomplished all they set out to do; they went through.
It is the attitude of the mind, and God comes in in relation to that; the going through is a question of God supporting you, so that the excellency of the power is of Him.

A.H.W. How do we arrive at that attitude of mind?

J.T. You come to value the thing, the "treasure", as was remarked in prayer.

"Having this ministry",

that is, such a ministry as is communicated, it must not fall to the ground, it must go through. That is the attitude of your mind.
How can you carry it through? You cannot by your own strength. Your very weakness is your strength, therefore, as you rely on God. The excellency of the power is of God, and that very experience in itself is formative.
It is the knowledge of God in the way of daily support, and you are in continual dependence on God.

H.H. Do you think chapter 3, which treats of the new covenant, is connected with responsibility, whereas this chapter would come in on the line of sovereignty?

J.T. It does. It leads up to that. We pass the judgment-seat of Christ; that is before us, but we reach new creation here.

H.H. Do you connect "beholding … the glory of the Lord" with new creation or sovereignty, or is it the writing on the heart now?

J.T. It is, I think, more for testimony that God may be known here. It is that kind of ministry, and you are in keeping with it.

The new covenant has set you up in spiritual liberty, so that you are here representative of God.
New creation is in view of eternity. They enter into each other because normally the work of God goes on from the time He takes you up; and all that goes on in your circumstances ministers to what God has taken you up for.
He has taken you up for something, that is, for His eternal purpose, and what may come in now in the way of service and testimony is sure to contribute to what He has in His mind for you eternally. It cannot but be so, if you are going on with God.
You are coming to know God now, and you are apprehending what is before Him, which is new creation, and you have part in that already.

H.H. God has lost man in his affections, but now He is writing Christ there.

J.T. Yes, it is a question of God gaining confidence in your heart. That is what the new covenant means. Through it we are free to look on the glory of the Lord with unveiled face.

Eu.R. In responsibility have we the Lord Jesus in that way kingdomwise, but holding our hearts in the blessed sunshine of God's love?

J.T. Exactly; all this arises from the truth of the "vessel", but it goes on to what is done in the body now. He comes to that in bringing in the judgment-seat of Christ.

He alludes to the things done in the body whether good or bad. That becomes a solemn matter as to one's whole life, what one has done with one's body. We have bodies, and so it is a question of how we use them.
Romans shows how unconverted men use their bodies, that in which we all have had our part; and the apostle shows how the body is secured for God, so as to be presented to God a living sacrifice.

F.H.B. "We must all"; who are the "all" there?

J.T. The apostle is dealing with christians particularly here, that is, those professedly christians, but it would have a special bearing on certain at Corinth who were evil workers. He was aiming at them, but then he could well afford to bring it in in regard to himself. It includes every one of us professing to be a christian.

Romans 14 connects the judgment-seat with God, and thus it is that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess to God. All are to be placed according to Romans 14 before the judgment-seat of God.
But here it is christians who are manifested before the judgment-seat of Christ.

Then it goes on, "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we persuade men, but have been manifested to God".

He brings God in, but it is the judgment-seat of Christ.

S.J.B.C. J.N.D. used to say that everything will come out at the judgment-seat of Christ, what we have done, even in our unconverted days, but that will enhance the grace of God in having saved such as we.

J.T. That is plain enough here: "That each may receive the things done in the body, according to those he has done, whether it be good or evil".

It is not the things done in the body since he was converted, but "done in the body". It is a question of how one has used one's body and of one's responsibilities to God as in it.

Ques. What is the thought of receiving in that? How could a believer receive what he has done?

J.T. It will be a question of how he appears in the kingdom, what his reward may be. It will be according to what he has done in his body, that is, what he will be in the kingdom must be relative to what he has been here. He has been in the kingdom here in his body in a moral sense.

Now, how do you use your body? What use has one made of one's body? "Each"; we are singled out very distinctly.

J.J. Would you use Abimelech as an illustration? He follows Gideon in Judges 9, and a kind of judgment-seat was made by Jotham.

J.T. Just so. I have no doubt he symbolises the kind of opposition that was current at Corinth when Paul wrote, that is, it was a question of being king.

"Ye have reigned as kings without us", it says.

Abimelech had that in his mind. The trees took counsel as to who should rule over them, and the poor Corinthians were little better than the trees when they made proposal to have someone to rule over them. Although well qualified to rule, Gideon had refused, saying,
- "I will not rule over you, neither shall my son rule over you: Jehovah will rule over you", Judges 8: 23.
He established that principle, although he was well fitted, because his mother's sons were all of them like him, and
- "each one resembled the sons of a king".
So Paul was well fitted to rule, but he declined and said,
- "I would that ye reigned, that we also might reign with you", 1 Corinthians 4: 8.
That enters into the servant's exercise; he refuses to be made a king. It is one of the most insidious things to regard christianity as a one-man affair. It is not. It is absolutely that in regard to Christ, but not in regard of anyone here on earth.
- "The locusts have no king", it says, Proverbs 30: 27; they represent christians.

Ques. It says of the Lord that He hid Himself. Should that not be applicable to us as servants?

J.T. They would have made Him king, but He says,

"My time is not yet come", John 7: 6.

He was born king, but it was not for "this world", and that is the principle:
- "The locust have no king, yet they go forth all of them by bands".
It is a greater thing to be governed by principles involving love for Christ than by external rule. The "bands" imply that we can come together in affection.
Now, the poor Corinthians were very like the trees of which Jotham speaks, that would have a king to rule over them.
The fig-tree said, No, I will not leave my sweetness to rule over you; the vine said it would not leave its function to make glad the heart of God and man; and then the olive tree would not leave its fatness wherewith it honoured God and man.
What precious ministries! This epistle corresponds; it is the honour the servant pays to God and to men. Well, am I going to leave that to become a king? No. These trees function profitably and consciously in regard of God and men, and they decline to rule over the trees.

J.H.B. Is that not summarised in the last verse of chapter 1 of this epistle?

"Not that we rule over your faith, but are fellow-workmen of your joy: for by faith ye stand".

J.T. Exactly; that is an excellent illustration and confirmation of it.

The thorn-bush is brought in. The thorn-bush in Exodus 3 is symbolic of what is of little value in this world, yet God came into it.
But as in Judges it has a sense it is of little value, so why not take the place that is offered? The true servant declines to take on kingship; he is too well off; he knows that he is serving God, which is greater than kingship as known in this world.
So the only one that would accept the offer was the thorn-bush and that was Abimelech, and so fire came out of the thorn-bush. Abimelech also fell under the judgment of God.
His course was especially wicked coming immediately after Gideon had set out the principle that although himself like a king, he had declined the position of one.

J.J. How do you view the Judges in the way of leadership?

J.T. It is a question of God calling a deliverer to meet the condition.

The first judge was Othniel, the husband of Achsah, who had in her dowry springs of water; that is to say, she was a woman of means spiritually and Othniel was of the same family, so that they were persons of means spiritually.
He was the first judge and he had to contend with the king of Mesopotamia. Mesopotamia is the land of "two rivers", meaning worldly resources. Chushan-rishathaim thus was a man of worldly resources, and how is he to be met? By a man of spiritual resources, and that was Othniel.
That is the principle of the Judges. The man is available personally, and God takes him up; the Spirit of God moves him and acts with him, and so it is all the way through the Judges. It is a question of God's love for His people.

Ques. Is Peter's exercise in 1 Peter 5: 3 on this line?

"Not as lording it over your possessions, but being models for the flock".

J.T. Exactly.

J.J.T. Does the thought of manifesting touch the question of motives?

J.T. Quite. We have to give an account of the deeds done in the body:

"that each may receive the things done in the body, according to those he has done, whether it be good or evil".

We are now in the presence of that anticipatively. Our very motives are all exposed and we have things out now. You may as well, because they will come out then, at the judgment-seat, hence one is always having to search oneself whether one is right as to one's motives, as to what is governing one in all one's doings.

Ques. Would you say the judgment-seat of Christ is anticipated by us in daily self-judgment?

J.T. Exactly. You are in the light of all being "manifested before the judgment-seat of the Christ".

H.E.S. Is the mutual side of things shown here, that not only they were manifested to God as the ministers, but they had an exercise that they should be manifested in the consciences of those whom they served?

J.T. It goes on, "We … have been manifested to God";

he could thus call God to witness on his soul. That was an immense thing. Then the apostle says,
- "I hope also that we have been manifested in your consciences".

H.D'A.C. He anticipated the judgment-seat, for all had come out already.

J.T. Yes; and it affords a great moral weapon in the soul, if you are consciously before God, and you can call God to witness in that way. You know that He commends you; so here Paul can call God to witness on his soul, and he says,

"We … have been manifested to God, and I hope also that we have been manifested in your consciences".

If it were not so, there was something wrong with their consciences.

Ques. Would the terror of the Lord bear on the things that do not come out now?

J.T. It would; and what is beautifully combined with that in the chapter is the love of Christ. He speaks about the terror of the Lord moving him to persuade men, but then he also says,

"The love of the Christ constrains us";

the One who is to be on the judgment-seat is the One who loved Paul. He knew the terror of the Lord, but the love of Christ constrained him; he was under the direct influence of that love.

Rem. Having the judgment-seat of Christ before us would preserve us from going on with what is not in accord with the mind of the Spirit.

J.T. Yes. The two things run together – the terror of the Lord against what is evil, whether it be in the believer or in others, so that you persuade men, and the love of Christ constraining you.

H.H. We all ought to take to heart seriously things that have never been cleared up here in regard of church difficulties and tests.

J.T. What a manifestation there will be of the motives governing all those sorrowful conflicts that have happened amongst the people of God!

J.H.T. Would that combination be seen in Ezekiel 11: 13, where it speaks of one dying, and then immediately,

"Ah, Lord Jehovah! wilt thou make a full end of the remnant of Israel?"

Would the combination you spoke of enter into our speaking and preaching?

J.T. Yes. It is greatly to be desired that we be constrained by the love of Christ. The statements in the chapter, about being beside himself and the love of Christ, show how completely the apostle was clear in regard of the judgment-seat.

There was not an atom of fear in his heart in regard of God.
- "Whether we are beside ourselves, it is to God",
that is, there was the power of abstraction from seen things, from mortal conditions to be "to God".

W.C.G. Does not that result from every matter being cleared up?

J.T. I think so. Paul was so clear in regard of any matter, that he could at any time enter into the presence of God without a fear, as one has said, assured of meeting an 'unrebuking gaze' when he spoke of going to be with the Lord.

That was Paul's state, that there would not be anything to rebuke even now. If I am beside myself, it is to God. At any time he could be with God in abstraction from seen things, showing how adjusted he was in his relations with God.

J.J. Do you think we see the way the judgment-seat of Christ operates in John 21 in the way the Lord deals with Peter?

J.T. Exactly. The adjustment brings into view the love of Christ. It is His service to do it.

Rem. In the affairs of men certain things may be on the calendar, but if you inquire about them, you are told that all those things have been settled out of court. We ought to bear in mind that there should be with us that concern with God that things may be settled now.

J.T. Quite so. One can be beside oneself to be to God, and God loves that in us, and then, as he says,

"or are sober, it is for you. For the love of the Christ constrains us".

P.G. It says with regard to David that he danced with all his might "before Jehovah", and God gives His approval; but his wife despised him, and it is said that "Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to the day of her death", 2 Samuel 6: 14,23. Would that be a similar case?

J.T. Yes. That generation comes to an end. God would never allow despisal of that which was manifested in David as he danced "before Jehovah". It was the spirit of worship.

D.L.H. Would you link the thought of "the terror of the Lord" with the word, "Our God is a consuming fire"?

J.T. I would. Our God is known in that way. It is a very solemn thing.

H.E.S. Is the idea that the apostle had confidence in regard of the future, but an intense exercise for the saints in regard of the present?

J.T. Yes; he was sober on their account; "the love of Christ" would keep him here for them,

"for the love of the Christ constrains us".

The Lord has that which is so precious to Him here, that the apostle is constrained in that connection. It is a sober calculation of things as they are, for "we thus judge", he says.
A judgment formed under the influence of the love of Christ is a most interesting one, and you may be sure it is carried on free from partiality.
- "Having judged this: that one died for all, then all have died".
That is a judgment arrived at. The judgment-seat of Christ would assume that, but the apostle had already come to it. He judged under the influence of the love of Christ that if one died for all, then all have died.

J.K. The apostle was made perfect in love.

P.W. Was it the love of Christ constraining him that enabled him to say,

"For I am conscious of nothing in myself; but I am not justified by this but he that examines me is the Lord", 1 Corinthians 4: 4?

It is the same person who says that who speaks here of the love of Christ constraining him.

J.T. I believe that is correct; he knew of nothing in himself, but was not thereby justified. After all, you have to refer to the Lord as to everything for final adjustment.

P.W. Then he goes on, "Then shall each have his praise from God", 1 Corinthians 4: 5. I thought that was a very beautiful touch.

Ques. Is this matter of being justified before the judgment-seat of Christ different from having a good conscience?

J.T. You may have a good conscience and not pass the judgment-seat of Christ. One may say his conscience is good, but the question is what standard you go by. The judgment-seat is in keeping with the death of Christ.

Rem. Saul had a good conscience in opposing Christ, a "conscience void of offence", Acts 24: 16.

J.T. Quite. But later being in the light of God he adjusted himself with God; with him then a good conscience was a very different matter. He exercised himself in order to maintain it, but he had a perfect standard before him. The death of Christ, revealing God's estimate of sin, was before him.

H.D'A.C. The judgment-seat of Christ is in many ways merciful and wise. The apostle Paul, for instance, lived and died a misunderstood man by many; the judgment-seat of Christ will remove all that from the saints. They misunderstood him, and so it will be with us all.

We may be too highly praised and valued – the judgment-seat will adjust it all. We may have been greatly misunderstood – the judgment-seat will remove it all. We shall begin eternity rightly adjusted with the whole company of saints.

J.T. Nothing will be left unsolved; everything will be seen as agreeing with the nature of God; nothing to dispute or interfere with God as known in Christ. This will mark eternity.

A.H.W. Would it be right to say the terror of the Lord had been demonstrated in the death of Christ?

J.T. Surely; that is where God's holy judgment against sin was seen fully.

J.J. So the judgment-seat of Christ is essential for the scene of reconciliation in the end of the chapter.

J.T. And particularly for all of us in active service, that we challenge ourselves as to our motives.

But then, in coming into close contact with Christ, we find that in the adjusting process His love is only confirmed, because we can never come into touch with Christ without being impressed that His dealings with us are in love. So the apostle's sobriety and judgment came in under that head,
- "For the love of the Christ constrains us, having judged this: that one died for all, then all have died; and he died for all, that they who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who died for them and has been raised".
That clears the scene – that all have died. We judge the death of Christ as having this significance as under the influence of His love.
What therefore are men after all? What are human distinctions? What is this reigning as kings? What are those aspirations as to places in this world? They all come down and disappear in the judgment formed as to the bearing of His death under the constraint of the love of Christ.

W.C.G. Would you say a word about the conclusion formed in verse 15,

"That they who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who died for them and has been raised"?

J.T. The apostle is reaching it on the line of Him who died and rose again; we are living to Him. Now the fleshly order is therefore gone for faith.

Of course we are not ignoring the other side of the truth, that we have our responsibility here in regard of natural relationships, but it is a question of going on to the full thought of God and of learning His love in relation to Him who died and rose again;
- that is, He draws you in the power of His love, draws you out of this scene of fleshly responsibilities into a realm where there is just one Man out of death and you live to Him.
But then you do not know anyone else; you do not know people now after the flesh, not even Christ, so if any man be in Christ, a new creation. That is the way it reads – a new creation.

A.S.L. In that scene there is nothing after the flesh.

J.T. Not a trace of it; it is all gone.

A.S.L. When we actually get into that sphere, we shall be exactly like Him, so we shall see and judge of everything rightly according to God.

P.G. The terror of the Lord is rather a stumble to me. Would it be in connection with the refusal perhaps in a servant to deliver the message, like Moses, who said,

"Ah Lord! send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send. Then the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Moses", Exodus 4: 13-14.

Would that not be the terror of the Lord?

J.T. Well, we have to do with God. "God is not mocked", Galatians 6: 7, and it is our God who is a consuming fire, as was remarked, but that is relative to what is to be consumed.

What you see in Revelation is a company of people standing upon a sea of glass mingled with fire. Everything is out; they are transparent. But then the fire was there; they had had to do with God.

H.H. "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we persuade men";

would that go further than those who profess?

J.T. No doubt; "men" includes all, but then, let us not drop down from new creation. In our scripture here we have come on to the very top.

W.L. Would this warning note prove that the testimony being carried on at the divine level, in spite of all the weakness that may come in here, is maintained and God justifies it?

J.T. Yes. You see the living conditions of the apostle; he judged all had died. Whatever your distinction in this world may be, it is nothing to him; all that has disappeared from his view.

He will not be unseemly in his relations with you, but your graded distinction is nothing to him. That is the way it works out; he did not know anyone after the flesh; that is how he would live.
If you had Paul in your house, he would convey to you that his living conditions were not even in legitimate things, but that they were in relation to Christ who died and rose again – in relation to a man out of death.
His desire was to attain to the resurrection from among the dead, to a state of things out of death. That is what he was aiming at, and so he would convey to you that those were his living conditions. He did not care for anything that men were going on with; they did not affect him.
- "I would to God", he said to king Agrippa, "both in little and in much, that not only thou, but all who have heard me this day, should become such as I also am, except these bonds", Acts 26: 29.
It was the state of his soul, his living conditions.

P.L. You referred to the trees. It says in Psalm 104: 16,

"The trees of Jehovah are satisfied". Would he be such a tree?

J.T. Exactly.

H.E.S. Does the apostle in regard to the presentation of ministry, on the one hand, maintain things on the level of all that God is towards men, and on the other hand, the delight and pleasure of God in a Man?

J.T. Yes, the gospel he preached includes both these features.

Ques. Is it in new creation we can say,

"This God is our God for ever and ever", Psalm 48: 14?

J.T. Just so; there all is of God. The apostle is bringing before us his living conditions. He says,

"So that we henceforth know no one according to flesh".

It is the acme of the thing; it is what is reachable. He comes on to the full level of the mind of God. He is touching many things, but here are conditions of his living experience, that he knows no one after the flesh, he says,
- "if even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer. So if any one be in Christ there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new: and all things are of the God who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ".
Thus the realm of God is reached.

Eu.R. Would it be right to say that while this has to be arrived at by each one individually, it involves our living conditions together?

J.T. No doubt. Paul is showing here from his own experience what is reachable by the believer, and this ought to enter into our service.

Though it is much greater than anything I may have here in service, it is reachable. Paul can say it for himself, and it is for every one to say how far he has reached it.

Rem. He began by determining to know nothing among the Corinthians but Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

J.T. That was to bring down their pride. It was in his public ministry, and not to go beyond that was a remarkable feat, because we are all so apt to bring out everything we know, particularly the very best things, in order to make a good impression, but not so Paul.

He had such power that – because of the state of the saints – he could limit himself to one part of the truth, and determine to know nothing beyond that.
But what he is aiming at here is to show you there is a plane which is reachable now where all things are of God, where old things have passed away and where all things have become new, the great influencing power being the love of Christ who died and rose again.
So in Philippians he aims not only to know it simply by faith, but to "arrive at the resurrection from among the dead", chapter 3: 11.

H.H. To bring a man to that high level would colour the gospel.

J.T. Quite. That is the great gain of formation. Paul reached the level God intended for us in Christ; he reached it in his soul.

So we have the elevation of which we have spoken in his ministry, and of his relations with God; he had passed out of the world of seen things. Think of the effect of that on a man as he opened his mouth to preach the gospel! What an influence he would exert on his audience!

F.S.M. Is living to Him the greatest objective that could possibly colour our lives, the general governing principle of life, the love of Christ constraining us?

J.T. Exactly; it is living, not to ourselves, but unto Him who died for us and rose again.

W.C.G. Do you not think what is behind that is that Christ is before our souls?

J.T. Quite; it is the Person who died.

F.S.M. It is not a question of purely individual acts of service, but the Lord would influence us so by the power of His love that the whole life would be one of service.

J.T. Yes. And then, as we have said, there are living conditions for the servant.

We need to learn to retire on to the plane that the mind of God indicates for us, a plane in which there is no question of service, but of new creation; a realm where everything is new, where there is not a vestige of anything old, and all is of God.

A.S.L. "All things are of the God who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ".

Would you say a word about that?

J.T. Now we come back from the plane of the purpose of God – new creation – to reconciliation. Reconciliation brings out a wide subject, so that the apostle goes back in his mind to what Christ was here.

"God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their offences".

It was the wonderful platform on which God approached men so as to deliver and reconcile them.

Eu.R. Is it a little like Peter and John abiding in the upper room in Acts 1 and the preaching going out in Acts 2?

J.T. Well, there it is not so much living conditions, but that they were staying in the place, meaning that the assembly is in view in Acts from the outset, and what is mentioned is to develop the order belonging to it in localities – in persons who stay in localities.

It is not so much a question of living conditions, but of the fact that certain persons were staying there, and as representative of Christ's authority.

F.H.B. Would you say a word as to the relation of new creation with reconciliation? They are brought in together here.

J.T. Reconciliation is really the means to it in our souls. Only as reconciled can we come into new creation; but reconciliation has in view all my responsible history.

"Not imputing their trespasses", it says.

God remits His claim so that we might be detained, and that we might see what He has in His mind for us, that is, Christ. So it was,
- "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good pleasure in men", Luke 2: 14.
That is what was in His mind, and God wants to remove everything that would hinder men coming into that. Men are to come into that, to be for God's good pleasure, but how can they come into His good pleasure?
We are reconciled to God by the death of His Son. The sins must be dealt with, but then He is not imputing them; He has been glorified in respect of them in the death of Christ. By the death of His Son He removes what is contrary to Him so that we may be for His pleasure.

A.S.L. In this reconciliation everything has been cleared away, everything of the flesh has been dealt with.

J.T. Quite; the whole responsible side has been disposed of to God's glory. What I have been here, my trespasses and the like, where I have been to God's displeasure, God has dealt with all that, and in faith I am brought on to the platform of His pleasure in Christ.

It is "good pleasure in men", Luke 2: 14,

and faith brings me into that. God has disposed in the death of Christ of all that which would be to His displeasure in me. Reconciliation is thus a question of faith coming into the apprehension of Christ risen, as representing what is pleasing to God in man.

A.S.L. That is the reason it is "by the death of his Son", Romans 5: 10) – not the precious blood, but the death.

J.T. Quite; "the death of his Son" in Romans, and "in the body of his flesh through death" in Colossians, chapter 1: 22.

We see in these strong expressions the depth and thoroughness of the work needed for reconciliation.

Ques. What is the relation between new creation and eternal life?

J.T. That brings up another thought. Eternal life has in view the fact that death is upon us; that is the relation in which it stands.

Reconciliation has in view that we displeased God, and so He has brought in His ideal in Christ,
- "Good pleasure in men".
A Man has come in in whom God found His delight, and He is going to bring men into that. That is what He will do, but it involved the death of His Son.

Ques. Does it reach on to the time when God will dwell with men?

J.T. It does. God has pleasure in us before He can dwell with us.

H.F.N. Would you say a word on the last verse and its bearing on what you have been speaking of?

J.T. It is the foundation of everything.

"Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us, that we might become God's righteousness in him".

Not only to be righteous, but to become God's righteousness – a marvellous statement – a full answer to the death of Christ and what He was made.
He was made sin for us, He who knew no sin. God did that; God made Him sin that we might be made His righteousness. This should appeal to our hearts!

R.B. Is the glorified body of the believer necessary for that?

J.T. I think so. It is what we shall be fully by and by – the expression of God's righteousness.

Rem. So the world to come is the sphere in which that will be manifested.

J.T. Yes. It is not only that we are constituted righteous, we become God's righteousness in Christ.

Page Top Article Top

READING 6

THE DIVINE STANDARD OF SERVICE (6)
2 Corinthians 12: 1-10
Converation on the collection

READING 6
THE DIVINE STANDARD OF SERVICE (6) 2 Corinthians 12: 1-10 Converation on the collection

J.T. I thought we might look at the intervening chapters – first chapter 7, in which the apostle urges his reception among the Corinthians, advancing in a humble and touching manner the grounds for the resumption of happy relations between them and himself.

His first letter had grieved them to repentance, and he would have them know that in writing he was thinking not so much of the injured or the one who injured, but that his diligent zeal for them might be manifest before God.
He did also think of the incestuous person who had been dealt with by them at Corinth with a view to his spirit being saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Now the apostle is concerned that he should be restored, in other words, concerned about the work of God.
The man, on account of his history, was under great pressure, as we see in chapter 2; but then he was to be reinstated as available in the fellowship. The true servant thus shows his concern for the work of God; discipline had the man's salvation in view.

Then we have the subject of the collection, into which the apostle enters most heartily and lengthily, even taking part in the service to the extent of being a deacon, reminding us that the spirit of service renders us ready to take on any necessary work, any work that may tend to promote the interests of the Lord.

Now he exalts the subject, as we might expect, to the level on which he was operating, viewing those who serve in it as Christ's glory.
The assembly is brought into the service of giving in a striking manner, its messengers being the glory of Christ. We are reminded that what apparently would be material, and thus relatively insignificant, is to be put on the exalted basis on which the service of God is. The collection is not beneath that; it is the bounty of the saints.

H.H. There has been a good bit of exercise about the collection. Some think the box ought not to be on the table.

J.T. The suggestion in that is that it is beneath the dignity of what is on the table; that is, the love behind the giving is overlooked, whereas it is spiritually pure gold.

Rem. I suppose it is entitled to a place as a sacrificial offering, an odour of a sweet-smelling savour.

J.T. It is brought on to that distinctive level here in its results – at the end of chapter 9.

"Now he that supplies seed to the sower and bread for eating shall supply and make abundant your sowing, and increase the fruits of your righteousness: enriched in every way unto all free-hearted liberality, which works through us thanksgiving to God.
"Because the ministration of this service is not only filling up the measure of what is lacking to the saints, but also abounding by many thanksgivings to God; they glorifying God through the proof of this ministration, by reason of your subjection, by profession, to the glad tidings of the Christ, and your free-hearted liberality in communicating towards them and towards all;
"and in their supplication for you, full of ardent desire for you, on account of the exceeding grace of God which is upon you. Thanks be to God for his unspeakable free gift", 2 Corinthians 9: 10-15.

There can be no doubt in the light of those words as to the spiritual significance of giving.

Rem. So you suggest that the collection reaches up to the level of what we have had before us here, and takes its place commensurately with it.

J.T. Yes. It is on that plane, and it ought to appeal to us that the messengers of the assembly to minister to the need in Jerusalem were Christ's glory.

It is within our reach as according to our ability financially thus to serve; it is not only meeting need that may be current, but in doing so there is a yield for God.

A.M. When David gave six hundred shekels of gold for the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite, would that illustrate the high level of the service?

J.T. He bought the place, showing that he had in mind the thought of enlargement, and he would have a free hand in his operations.

The amount given in 1 Chronicles 21: 22 is much larger than in 2 Samuel. David, according to the former, gave "full money" and the area secured was evidently larger than the threshing-floor.

H.E.S. Does it stand connected with the spirit and manner of giving of the children of Israel in regard of the tabernacle?

J.T. It does. There was a very remarkable result in Exodus. The giving exceeded the need, and so in David's time the same thing happened – a wonderful supply appeared in view of the building.

Ques. Do you not think in the early days the free-hearted liberality of the brethren amongst the nations to their brethren who were Jews had much to do with the breaking down of the middle wall of partition in a practical way, so that national and racial questions were melted down by it?

J.T. It is very remarkable as the testimony extended to Antioch that a prophetic ministry came down from Judaea – as if that was Judaea's contribution, compare Romans 15: 27, at that moment – announcing that there would be a great dearth, which took place under Claudius.

That was God's governmental action in view of what was proceeding at Antioch. The dearth took place in the days of Claudius, and that brought into view the need in Judaea, which certain who were "well off", Acts 11: 29, at Antioch were determined to meet; and it says they did it, and sent it to the elders by the hand of Barnabas and Saul.
God acted governmentally in the dearth to bring out the bounty of the gentiles, and thus increase the links between the brethren in Judaea and those at Antioch – a very remarkable illustration of what you say.
The appeal there was to those who were "well off"; that has its own voice. Here it is not to such specially, but to the assembly, the saints as a whole; we should not therefore leave the thing to those who have means, for a man is accepted according to what he has, however little it may be or however much. It is in the acceptance that the gain is; it is in being accepted that one gains spiritually.

M.W.B. Is it not important to see that the collection is an assembly act? It is the act of the church as you have pointed out, sent through the messengers of the assemblies, and then in Philippians it says,

"No assembly communicated anything to me in the way of giving and receiving, save ye alone".

It is not merely an individual action, but the action of the assembly.

J.T. That is the point of view in these two epistles. In the first epistle the collection is brought in in relation to the first day of the week, which is very noteworthy.

The breaking of bread is not even brought in in that connection in Corinthians. The Lord's supper is dwelt upon without any mention of the day on which it was celebrated.
But the day is mentioned in regard of the collection, as if it were a tangible way of reminding them of spirituality; that they could show it in that, laying by at home on the first day of the week as God prospered them.
The mention of the first day of the week would carry a certain spiritual sentiment with it, which undoubtedly they would be capable of appreciating, and that sentiment is connected with the collection and not with the Lord's supper in the first epistle.
The introduction of the Lord's supper had to do with order, to meet a certain disorder that existed amongst them.

Ques. Have we any warrant for a special collection?

J.T. I think we have. It is a special collection in this case, a collection for a specific purpose. The principle of a collection, as I understand it, is that it has to be relative to the need; the exercise must be the measure or extent of the need.

M.W.B. Would wisdom come in in that respect, as directing the quantity – the heart being prepared to give, but wisdom directing the outlay?

J.T. Quite. You would consider everything. The saints are children of wisdom, and you would like to act on the principle of mutual expression of affection.

So the collection should express that, hence it would not be the act of one rich person; he would act comelily in what he gives so as to be with the others in it; otherwise he is sure to exert undue influence.

A.S.L. Is it not true that christianity, as we speak, is a system characterised by giving?

J.T. Indeed. If it emanates from God, as it does, it must be that.

A.S.L. He is the great giver, and as His children we learn to give, and delight in giving, not necessarily money, but giving in some shape or form. Giving is the great characteristic.

J.T. You have it here at the end of chapter 9, "His unspeakable free gift".

A.S.L. "If thou knewest the gift of God", John 4: 10.

H.E.S. Is your thought in regard of the Supper in 1 Corinthians that what is emphasised is the point of order, but in regard of giving the point of spirituality?

J.T. Exactly. It looks in the first epistle as if he could reach them on that point. I do not understand the introduction of the first day of the week in any other sense than that. It carries with it all that entered into that day when the Lord Jesus rose from among the dead.

Paul had just been dilating at great length on the resurrection in chapter 15, and now he brings in the first day of the week in relation to the collection in chapter 16.

A.S.L. "Not grievingly, or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver".

I venture to think there can be no spiritual enlargement or prosperity if there is not the spirit of giving in some shape or other. There is no such thing as hoarding things up, but it is our privilege, as we know the giving God, to communicate in some way or other.

J.T. Love always teaches us to think of others.

D.L.H. Could you give us a word as to the right connection between the box or the basket on the table, and the bread and the wine there in connection with the Supper?

The difficulty has been raised – not very universally – as to the box or basket being on the table at all.

J.T. It seems to me, as has often been remarked, to fit in very well with the Lord's supper in that the latter is the love of Christ and the love of God.

That is what the Lord's supper presents. The bread sets forth the love of Christ and the cup the love of God.
Well, if that is effective, the box should certainly testify to what is in our hearts.
It is not all, of course, because there is the answer spiritually in praise and worship, but these chapters in 2 Corinthians link up the giving with that very thing, thanksgiving to God. So it seems to me to be in its place on the table with the emblems of the Lord's supper. Do you think that?

D.L.H. Yes; it has been suggested that if the love of Christ is presented to us and the love of God, there is room for the response in the love of the saints.

J.T. That is clear enough; and another thing, as has been remarked, is that the giving should have in view the extent of the need existing. Of course we may give, in view of potential need, but if need is known the full extent of it should be kept in view in the giving.

Rem. Christianity is really like water, it rises to its own level; the principle in chapter 8 is that there should be equality. It is stated there indeed as a principle, so that one can contemplate the christian company as having every proper need met, and met in that company.

W.W. Would it be possible to have the spirit of blessing apart from the love of Christ and the love of God?

J.T. It springs from these. The spirit of blessing would arise from God giving – what God is to us; so that the cup, being the cup of blessing, should induce that spirit in us.

H.D'A.C. But there are many meetings where there is no need, and if your giving has to be gauged by the need, that would rather stop saints giving. There are thousands of saints who do not know of need.

J.T. But then the need is not simply in your own locality. The need would be general. If we love the Lord, we are interested in what is general in the assembly at large; so you would get to know the current needs everywhere, and would think in that connection. Do you not think so?

H.D'A.C. I understand that a hundred years ago, when the movement of recovery began, there was an immense amount of giving without knowing the need, but that led to abundance for those who were gifts, and great enlargement in the gospel.

J.T. But what I am alluding to in this is in most gatherings; as far as I know, there is no definite thought at all as to what is needed. If there is anything over, well and good, but if there is not, there is nothing to give.

But that is not the way God gives. God measures the need, and He would have us to measure the requirements.
I think the principle brought out at Antioch was just that; there was need and it was brought to the attention of the brethren – to those who were well off; and so, according to these epistles, a similar thing existed later, and the apostle is labouring to bring out as much as possible from the saints in view of it.
When at Jerusalem the leading brethren urged him to remember the poor,
- "which same thing also", he says, "I was diligent to do", Galatians 2: 10.

M.W.B. Would that not make us feel the necessity of bearing in mind the universal character of christian fellowship? It is not local.

J.T. It is general; and I believe that the existence of need in Judaea was in the government of God intended to establish this principle among the gentiles.

Rem. There are many gatherings where they have no local need and the temptation is to sink into isolation and to become self-centred; but if they have this point before them, it will be an object to make themselves acquainted with what is existent in the house of God, and be prepared for it.

J.T. And if taken up in that way, every need would be met.

"On the principle of equality", 2 Corinthians 8: 14,

there is plenty for all – there should be no want.

D.L.H. Is it not interesting that it says of God that He has dispersed abroad? Does that not meet the whole point?

J.T. That is good. The other day a brother was remarking about a special collection that amounted to a considerable sum of money, that it was just the price of one motor car, and not a very expensive one at that! That puts the thing where it belongs.

What are we giving for the interests of Christ, that is, in relation to what we have?

R.B. Then what is the thought of laying by at home?

J.T. It is "On the first of the week let each of you put by at home, laying up in whatever degree he may have prospered".

It suggests that you get with your family in the matter. That is what I have thought about it.

R.B. Yes, I think that.

J.T. God takes account of our households. The apostle referred to that earlier, that they should eat at home:

"Have ye not then houses for eating and drinking?", 1 Corinthians 11: 22.

You have to consider how you are eating at home, what kind of table you set, and you have to consider whether others are eating like that. That is the way the thing works; it is very practical.

W.L. What is the significance that this came under the attention of the saints through prophetic ministry?

J.T. It brought in Judaea and Jerusalem as still a great spiritual centre to which the gentiles were greatly indebted.

God would remind us of that, and there is a principle in it that we can never ignore – the locality in which God works in a special way. We are under obligation to it, for light radiates.
It is alluded to formally in Acts 11 and Romans 15. Agabus came down and what he prophesied came to pass. It would be a temporal advantage at Antioch to know that the famine was coming and there would thus be additional indebtedness to Judaea.

M.W.B. In the laying by in store, do you also see the fact of an actual store put by in addition to acting householdwise?

J.T. There was a special need in view, but the principle is there, that you are acting householdly.

M.W.B. Is there an additional thought, not only acting householdly, but putting by a store, in the light of the assembly, on the first day of the week, in readiness in case of any need of a special kind?

J.T. Quite.

G.J.E. Is not the response of the box gauged by the last verse?

"Thanks be to God for his unspeakable free gift".

J.T. That is the point – you are acting like God.

Ques. Is there any reason why the apostle should speak of the giving of the Macedonians and that which prompted them?

He speaks of them giving themselves to the Lord and then to the saints, and also speaks of their begging and entreating Paul and others to give effect to the service which was to be rendered to the saints.

J.T. I think it was brought in to stimulate those at Corinth; that seems to be the way of it. W.W. If there is one loaf and one cup, are all these needs met out of one box?

J.T. If there is enough in it.

W.W. What I have in mind is, if there is not enough in the box, it should be made a special collection brought into the one box.

J.T. The one box ought to include everything. Only there is the principle of a special collection when the need is special, and it is employed by the Spirit to stimulate giving.

It is not as if one is getting it out of you. We do not want to do that, to be beggars; that is not the point. The thing is to elevate it to its proper level.
It is a question of privilege and of being like God. That is the idea here; not that a few well-to-do individuals bear all the expenses of the brethren, but that the saints give in a mutual way in love. That is what God loves.
- "Every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle upon a thousand hills", He can say.
- "If I were hungry, I would not tell thee", Psalm 50: 12.
That is not what He wants. He wants to act upon our affections that we may give like Him, He creates the need to bring out our affections.
- "If I shall dole out all my goods in food … but have not love, I profit nothing", 1 Corinthians 13: 3.
The love which prompts the giving is what God values.

H.D'A.C. He does not suggest that people should make known their need, but rather that saints should be near enough to God to find there is need.

J.T. Just so; and that is what Paul is dwelling on. He was perfectly conversant with the need. And it is remarkable how Titus is brought into it, how thoroughly sympathetic he was and ready to take on a service like this, because it bore on the spiritual conditions of the Corinthians.

J.J. The apostle is seeking to secure their affections in this way; that the gentiles should collect for the Jews and the Jews receive from gentiles would be a proof of the working of the body.

J.T. That is what was remarked. God creates these conditions to promote general affection – love for all the saints; Colossians 1: 4.

Another thing that enters into this is the need of ministry. Someone has alluded to the smaller gatherings that are rarely visited, but if we have an exercise like that, how are we meeting it?
You say, God has not given gift, but then, supposing He does give the gift, the brothers who have it must travel to reach the saints. Ministers have to travel, and their gift will not pay their railway fares. The saints must see to this.

Rem. And live.

J.T. Exactly.

D.L.H. And be lodged.

Eu.R. You include all that in the thought of need?

J.T. It certainly is a very notable obligation. If the work of God is to be carried on, what am I doing? Am I remiss in regard of it?

Suppose God did give gifts; they have to live, and to travel, and be lodged, as was said. How is that going to come about? If God raised up fifty gifted men so that every meeting should be visited, how are they going to visit the meetings? Their gifts will not carry them.

Eu.R. If we clothed them as 'messengers of assemblies', it would greatly stimulate us to help them on their way.

J.T. What they have got is, as Paul says, "this treasure in earthen vessels", and they have to be cared for in a temporal way.

Ques. Should not our giving be on sacrificial lines, costing us something to give?

J.T. That is what is worked out here. The Lord, though rich, became poor, that we through His poverty might be rich.

Rem. "But of doing good and communicating of your substance be not forgetful, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased", Hebrews 13: 16.

J.T. Just so, and "Let him that is taught in the word communicate to him that teaches in all good things", Galatians 6: 6.

Ques. An odour of sweet-smelling savour – is that the level?

J.T. Exactly. Now chapter 10: 1 brings in "the meekness and gentleness of the Christ"

– another beautiful touch as to the level of ministry –

and then the weapons of warfare that are employed, for now things take a military turn, and conflict is included in the service, so that he beseeches them by the meekness and gentleness of Christ – a remarkable introduction to a military chapter.
And then he speaks of the kind of weapons in the conflict.
- "For the arms of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful according to God to the overthrow of strongholds; overthrowing reasonings and every high thing that lifts itself up against the knowledge of God, and leading captive every thought into the obedience of the Christ", verses 4-5.
That is the first thing, and then,
- "Having in readiness to avenge all disobedience", verse 6.
The general calculation in service is having the saints generally right and in order, every high thought brought down by spiritual weapons; and then, not sparing the guilty, for in all issues and conflicts there are some guilty ones, and these cannot be let go.
We can never proclaim a general amnesty in the things of God. There must be the dealing with whatever there is that has given rise to the conflict. The general principle is to have order among the brethren; all brought into the obedience of the Christ, which is an immense thought to have in mind.

S.J.B.C. What is the character of this conflict? Is it in the wilderness, or does it touch the Canaan conflict? Pulling down strongholds seems to remind one of Jericho.

J.T. It does; but I think what is in view here is the state of things at Corinth.

Will was at work, and Satan had got a footing and the whole meeting was affected; so it was a question of using skill –
- "the meekness and gentleness of Christ" marking the servant
– and employing spiritual weapons to bring in obedience in a general way, so as to avoid a breach, or the possibility of any being carried off, but that all should be saved.
But if there be the continuance of will and disobedience in certain ones, they have to be dealt with.
- "Having in readiness", he says, "to avenge all disobedience", verse 6.

M.W.B. Why does he add, "when your obedience shall have been fulfilled"?

J.T. He means that his aim was to save the whole assembly. Had he gone to Corinth with a rod, doubtless a large number would have been thrust into the camp of the opposers.<>

But he is using the utmost skill in order to reach them all, and that the whole assembly should be brought into subjection.
Then there were outstanding ones; he deals with them in chapter 11: 13, calling them "false apostles".

Ques. Would the suggestion be that when their obedience was made manifest, what would be left would be leaven that would be dealt with? Is that why it brings in

"when your obedience shall have been fulfilled"?

J.T. He would have the whole assembly with him; that in anything he would do, there should be no danger of a general rupture.

P.L. Do you get the thought of the meekness and gentleness of Christ in the scripture,

"I drew them with cords of a man", Hosea 11: 4?

J.T. Just so. Then, another thing in this chapter is the principle of measure – that we do not go beyond our measure. God is the God of measure.

It is remarkable how God is brought into every phase – God in Christ, here
- "the God of measure".
Those present at Corinth were not going on that principle at all; they really had no measure. Paul's measure was a measure that reached "to you also", as he says.
These men – false apostles – were working in a ready-made state of things, made ready to hand by somebody else. That is not anything. They were measuring themselves by themselves, but then, that is no standard at all; it is a question of God's measure.

Ques. Is that why he brings in the suffering? Is a man's measure according to the measure he can suffer?

J.T. The result of a man's ministry, what he effects by ministry is his measure, as he says,

"The measure … to reach to you also", chapter 10: 13.

Then in the next chapter, among other things, you have a very beautiful thing, that is, the
- "simplicity as to the Christ", chapter 11: 3.

A.S.L. The expression, "God of measure", which is a scriptural expression, is absent from the Authorised Version, which is a very great lack. The God of measure measures out in sovereignty to everybody as He thinks fit.

J.T. It shows the value of the New Translation.

Then I was remarking on the next chapter, as to the "simplicity as to the Christ". They were in danger of being corrupted from that, and he brings in Satan:
- "As the serpent deceived Eve by his craft, so your thoughts should be corrupted from simplicity as to the Christ".
Simplicity is another feature that should be noted in service, and I think it is beautifully illustrated in David as rejected by Saul. He comes to Nob and needs bread, and he says to the priest,
- "What is under thy hand?", 1 Samuel 21: 3.
Now that is the point, what is under your hand? As in a meeting you may complain that the gift is very little, that there is very little help, but the point is, what is under your hand; whatever there is, use that.
Well, the priest said, there are these loaves, and there were five of them, but David says, Give me those. They were just coming off the table of shewbread. David is ready to explain to the priest that the simplicity that was in him was really priestly; he knew that the bread was really
- "in a manner common", verse 5,
showing that he is able to judge of a thing as well as the priest himself; but, as simple, he would use what was available.

A.S.L. I suppose Eve herself is the very best possible illustration of the lack of "simplicity as to the Christ", chapter 11: 3. She had only to attend to Adam, and she ought to have referred the serpent to her husband.

But she was defective as to simplicity as to her head. So we cannot do without the book of Genesis.

J.T. Then she gave of the forbidden fruit to her husband with her.

A.S.L. In passing, it is very interesting to note that the great attack of the enemy today is on the book of Genesis, but you find the New Testament is full of references to it.

J.J.T. Have you in mind that in small meetings even, there is the possibility of stimulating what there is of God and making use of it?

J.T. You make use of what there is. You cannot expect God to give you more if you do not use what He has given you.

Then David asks for a sword, and the priest says, I have not any save the sword of Goliath, and it is wrapped up behind the ephod; that is, it was not being used.
It was kept seemingly with priestly care, wrapped up behind the ephod, but it was not in use. David would make use of it, and he said,
- "There is none like that".

H.E.S. In the gospels the Lord takes up what was under His hand from time to time.

J.T. It is a great lesson to be simple in regard to what there is; as used it will become larger and more effective.

Rem. God said to Moses, "What is that in thy hand?"

And Andrew says to the Lord,
- "There is a little boy here who has five barley loaves and two small fishes", John 6: 9.

P.G. Have you anything in mind as to its being Goliath's sword?

J.T. No; but it was there. The priest did not apparently think much of it. It is what is under your hand; that is the thing.

Now chapter 11 is full of details in regard of the wonderful life of Paul, a wonderful history of experience, but we can hardly touch on these.

They are more to be looked at soberly, as the dear apostle is forced to disclose what he would have loved to have kept secret, and would rather not have spoken about. It must have been a real sorrow to him that he was forced to speak about these private matters that belonged to himself and the Lord.
He would have infinitely preferred to have left them until the Lord would bring them out and accord to him what is due; but he was compelled to speak of them beforehand on account of the state of the Corinthians.

F.W.J. David with the lion and the bear was very similar. He would not have told about it had it not been drawn from him.

J.T. It was no question of honouring himself.

D.L.H. We can thank God that Paul spoke "as a fool", verse 16) on this occasion, and that David had that drawn out from him.

J.T. We are indeed profiting at their expense.

Eu.R. What is the feature of Satan transformed into an angel of light?

J.T. It is the common habit of opposers of the truth pretending to represent God in some new feature, to put themselves forward as angels of light, but there ought to be some proof of it, and so the apostle challenges them here.

He says, "If indeed he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or ye get a different Spirit, which ye have not got, or a different glad tidings, which ye have not received, ye might well bear with it", verse 4.

They could not. There was not anything different to be brought from God than what Paul presented, and so their professing to be angels of light was fictitious; they were liars, they were false apostles.
Paul has come to the real crux of the matter now at Corinth, and he is exposing those men who were darkening and blinding the brethren.

P.G. Why should the apostle wish to keep this wonderful vision of his private?

J.T. It was like the hardships he endured, a private matter. The question is whether you or I could keep a wonderful thing like this for fourteen years without telling about it. I fear we should have retailed it at every fireside and every table!

It is a question of being able to keep things. They do not lose by the keeping. No doubt Paul never expected to have to use it in this way, but God knew it would be needed. So he brought it out when it was needed.

H.E.S. He would not do anything for his own glory, because he had the glory of God always before him.

J.T. He was not after his own glory, but the visions and revelations he had in the third heaven had an immense effect upon his ministry.

You want to let the brethren have the benefit of anything you have got, but not to enhance yourself. Ability to keep things, and use them when needed, is a matter of importance.

A.S.L. Do you think that in that connection there was an intentional connection between being let down in a basket and then going on immediately to speak of being caught up?

J.T. There seems to be; it is very remarkable.

A.S.L. The one was humiliating, the other tending very much to exalt.

J.T. He says, "Through a window in a basket I was let down by the wall", chapter 11: 33.

Those were the facts; that is, he presents the humiliating side, but the facts related elsewhere point to the love of the brethren. He was let down by them.
That was another thing, but he does not bring that in here; to be let down by them would be no suffering to him, but that he was let down in this way was a humiliating thing.

Rem. I am glad you speak of that, because we are often inclined to think the brethren let us down to humiliate us, but that is not the thing.

J.T. No. If you look at Acts 9: 25 it says, "But the disciples took him by night and let him down through the wall, lowering him in a basket".

That was not to humiliate him, but to make it easy for him; that he should not strike the ground heavily; it was love.

A.S.L. I have always heard of brethren letting him down in a basket in this way as an illustration of the gentle way of dealing with your brethren.

E.G. It is "through the wall", in Acts 9, but here it is "through a window". Is there any difference?

P.L. Would the going down promote the qualities with him in which heaven could acclaim him? Would there be some analogy? The one who could thus accept the humiliation is morally qualified for entrance into heaven. The Lord Himself was chosen to go up into heaven in answer to His humiliation.

J.T. There seems a relation between them. "Through a window in a basket I was let down by the wall".

Think what that meant for a man who had been brought up at the feet of Gamaliel!

E.J.M. I thought the basket was a coffin generally used in the East in those days.

J.T. The translation says "basket". Acting in simplicity, they used what was available. It was a question of letting the brother down with the least inconvenience or hurt to himself. It was a matter of love, but it was humiliating to him otherwise.

J.H.T. He escaped from the Jews in Acts, but from the political sphere here. We need to escape from both in our service.

J.T. In Acts 9: 23 it is from the Jews. It says,

"When many days were fulfilled, the Jews consulted together to kill him",

but here it is the ethnarch of Aretas, the king of the city, that is, it is the political agent. Undoubtedly the Jews got him to do this.

H.H. Could we have a word on what "a man in Christ" is?

J.T. As has been remarked, the humiliation of the end of chapter 11 prepares us for the great exaltation of chapter 12.

It is a man. Every true believer is in Christ, but here it is "a man in Christ", that is, it is a developed or mature thought. It is such a one as Paul,
- "a man in Christ",
and he says, I know him; not, I knew him, but I know him. It is a present thing. He was consciously "a man in Christ".

A.S.L. Fourteen years made no difference as to this.

J.T. No; he was "a man in Christ" then, and also when he spoke. He brings the thing down to the present, to the time of writing.

H.D'A.C. That is open to all of us to know consciously "a man in Christ"; and it is therefore an episode he can share in common with many others.

J.T. Exactly; and we lead up to the top note in this – to what is in the mind of God,

"a man in Christ".

The Corinthians were not that; they were "babes in Christ".

W.C.G. Would you say the consciousness of what we are with God is according to the measure of the work of God effected in us?

J.T. Yes. In this sense "a man in Christ" presents the full thought of God. Of course, the word 'man' is used in many connections, but the context here shows that the full thought of God is in view – what we shall be in heaven.

He could only speak to them as to babes in Christ. But here is a man, and that is brought in as the top note, as we might say, of his whole instruction. In chapter 5: 17 there is new creation
- "If any one be in Christ, there is a new creation".
That is the general position; but here is "a man in Christ" singled out, and, as he says,
- "caught up to the third heaven";
first, to call attention to the elevation accorded to him, what was in the mind of God as to elevation, and then to paradise, which indicates the delightfulness of the place.

H.W.S. Do you look upon that as specially the portion of the apostle, or is there any way in which it can apply to us?

J.T. I do not think for a moment it was common. It is mentioned as an extraordinary experience; but still it is not an apostle that is alluded to, but "a man in Christ", and one should have that in view, as to whether one can consciously, as I may say, regard oneself as "a man in Christ".

H.D'A.C. It is open to such a one to be beside himself to God, is it not?

J.T. Quite; as is alluded to in chapter 5.

A.S.L. Is it a personal experimental arrival in the soul at what is said in a general way in chapter 5?

"If any man be in Christ".

that is, in his own soul. He could not only quote the general principle, but he himself had the conscious knowledge of it.

J.T. Quite. He says, "If any one be in Christ", in chapter 5; that is, it is not the idea of the man but any one, whoever he may be;

but here what is in view is the divine thought of "a man in Christ" and what is available to him in the way of elevation.

M.W.B. Would the being caught up to the third heaven be a question of divine pleasure?

J.T. It is what God may do for you in His sovereignty. Attention is called to the elevation and delightfulness of the heavenly region spoken of – the third heaven and paradise.

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