Genealogical Registry
in a Day of Departure
Ministry by J. Taylor – Part Eight

T.M.G. All in Asia had turned away from him; he was a test, as we have been saying.

Rem. Paul seems to lay great stress on the intelligent appreciation of what he says.

J.T. Yes. As Timothy would think over it, the Lord would give him understanding. Divine things are not taken in by mental ability, but by understanding divinely given.

T.M.G. Timothy might think, but without the Lord giving him understanding it would not avail.

J.T. The Lord is brought in in this letter as supporting the testimony. It is the testimony of our Lord;

• so that this letter should be studied thoroughly in connection with every other Scripture intended for the servant.

Rem. It says in 1 Timothy 4: 15,

• "Meditate upon these things".

• "Take heed unto the doctrine".

J.T. The reasons are given; it is

• "that thy profiting may appear to all",

• and, "in doing this thou shalt both save thyself and those that hear thee".

Ques. What would be the great subject of Paul's teaching?

J.T. He had two ministries – the ministry of the gospel, and the ministry of the assembly.

• Of course, Peter and the eleven preached the gospel too. They were to preach it to all the nations, but they did not preach it strictly as a heavenly system.

• Paul began by preaching Christ as the Son of God; and then he taught that the assembly was Christ's body.

S.L. That, we may say, was the first lesson learned by the apostle and it characterised his ministry.

J.T. Yes. Paul announced Christ in Damascus as the Son of God.

• He tells us in Galatians 1: 15, that God revealed His Son in him, and it was that he might "announce him". It is sonship and all that rests on that; the heavenly position and the assembly as the bride of Christ.

• The apprehension and the practice of Paul's doctrine in the last day involves the saints being heavenly; so that in the address to Philadelphia it says they are to be kept from the hour of trial that shall come upon all those that dwell on the earth.

• It does not say, 'I will take thee' out of it, but "I will keep thee" out of it. It is a question more of God's keeping power through faith, than actual translation.

T.M.G. It involves "the testimony of our Lord".

J.T. I think so; that is the tender plant that he would foster and protect in these last days.

T.M.G. The tendency is to gravitate towards the earth.

J.T. Anyone who is an earth-dweller is exposed to the hour of trial. The Lord says,

• "I will keep thee out of the hour of trial".

• It shows the faithfulness of Christ, and the power too that He is exercising on the behalf of the assembly.

T.M.G. He is a present Saviour. All the organisations in the world are to divert the mind of man from Him.

J.T. The earth is in view in all the calculations of the philosophers. But the saints, as keeping the word of Christ's patience, are to be kept out of the hour of trial.

Rem. In Paul saying, "consider what I say", was there something fresh to be considered?

J.T. It is what Paul says. The Lord opened the heart of Lydia to attend to the things spoken by Paul; Acts 16.

Rem. It is really the heavenly line of things.

J.T. Timothy had learned of Paul before, and this was an additional word. What Paul said was to be considered and the Lord would give understanding.

T.M.G. "Thou hast fully known my doctrine", he says in chapter 3,

J.T. The man of God is to consider what Paul says.

J.M. That is what the enemy is ever against.

J.T. The Lord says, "he that keepeth my word". Paul's ministry would be included in Christ's word. "The Son of God" is the great feature with Paul. It was a light from heaven that shone around him at Damascus.

T.M.G. The tendency in Christendom today is to connect Christ with the earth, as we see in such books as, 'In His Steps'.

J.T. What He was as a man here in relation to men.

Rem. "The Son of God" is what He was in another sphere altogether.

J.T. Then as to the principles that were to govern the assembly, one who is spiritual recognises that the things which Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians as stated in chapter 14: 37 are

• "the commandments of the Lord".

• The letters to the Corinthians in that way become the law of the house for Christians. Of course, Peter and John and James give us instruction, but the last word for the assembly is Paul's word.

W.H.M. It is a great lack among the people of God generally that we do not ponder things enough.

J.T. The Scriptures are very far-reaching. I have no doubt that in Paul's writings the full bearing may not have been apparent then;

• the application of some features is, no doubt, clearer now, as the conditions in view have developed.

Rem. What was given out when everything was in order might have a different bearing when failure had come in.

J.T. The idea in Scripture is that each book or letter is a part of a whole, and all is divine. You can never limit what is inspired, hence the great importance of thinking over things.

Rem. The apostle could not do anything but minister; the understanding must come from the Lord.

J.T. Peter says that certain things Paul wrote were; hard to be understood. There are hidden teachings in these writings that only pondering would bring out.

Rem. Like Daniel, who understood by books.

Ques. Would it be right to say that the ministry of the assembly was not revealed until Paul's time?

J.T. Yes.

Rem. It needs a true spiritual state among the saints, before it can be made known or developed.

J.T. Paul did not make it known in its fulness, except to the Ephesians, as far as Scripture shows.

• The understanding of it is entirely dependent on
  • "the spirit of wisdom and revelation",

• which God gives to us. According to Ephesians 3: 14, Paul "bows his knees". I understand that to be the evidence of great exercise. He desired that the saints should be strengthened with the Father's spirit so as to be fully able to apprehend divine things.

Rem. It is understanding "in all things". Would not that have the effect of making us feel that we are dependent on the Lord for understanding in everything?

J.T. Yes, you are cast upon the Lord, and He will not fail; He will give understanding in all things.

Rem. The apprehension of Paul's ministry would give character to Timothy. He would be marked as supporting the truth by this.

J.T. Timothy was to remember

• "Jesus Christ raised from among the dead, of the seed of David",

• according to Paul's glad tidings.

T.M.G. The risen Man. That gave character to his glad tidings.

J.McF. The great thought is "raised from among the dead".

J.T. Yes, at the end of a path of faithfulness. He who carried out the will of God, met all kinds of opposition. That Man was raised. That is a great stay to the heart. We are in like circumstances, in measure.

J.McF. The moral import of that would affect us now. In our spirits we would be as those risen from amongst the dead through faith of the operation of God.

J.T. In resurrection all Christ's sufferings are over. We are to remember Him raised. This is an immense stay to the heart in suffering.

Ques. Why does he bring in here "the seed of David"?

J.T. I think it is because He inherited the promises to David. He was the Seed-royal, and this meant suffering; see Matthew 2. All that hangs on royalty, for Him meant reproach and suffering.

• The purple in the tabernacle referred to royalty. This means suffering now. Christ's kingly rights were witnessed to at the cross; instead of reigning, He died.

W.H.M. Does it not imply also how He became a Man excellent in all His ways?

• "The path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day", Proverbs 4: 8.

J.T. The other side of the truth of His Person, as seen in Romans 1, is, that He was

• "marked out Son of God in power according to the spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead".

• That passage refers to the power He exercised Himself in regard to others; here in 2 Timothy 2, it is that He was raised by God.

T.M.G. The power was inherent in Him according to Romans.

Rem. It involved suffering, for the apostle.

J.T. Suffering is the order of the day, but then it culminates in resurrection; so the apostle immediately adds:

• "Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds".

Rem. That resurrection is the end of the path of suffering is not seen by the world, or those in it who persecute.

J.T. But we do not want deliverance on any other principle.

J.R.W. You said that suffering is the order of the day; there is also rejoicing.

J.T. Suffering is to be accepted. All that will live godly have to suffer; but joy in the Spirit accompanies it! A most wonderful example of this was in Philippi, where Paul and Silas were cast into the inner prison.

• At midnight they "in praying were praising God, with singing".

• One thing led to another; the place, for the moment, was turned into a temple of God. And then, it says, "the prisoners listened to them". It was a wonderful scene. That is what God can do in these days.

Rem. The suffering precedes the joy.

J.T. Of course, you get the joy, but, in this respect the suffering brings it out.

Ques. What did you mean when you said there is no deliverance except in resurrection?

J.T. That is the principle. It is said of some of the saints of old

• "Not accepting deliverance that they might obtain a better resurrection;" Hebrews 11: 35.

• So that we do not look for man's help, we look for God's help. The Psalms show in a remarkable way how the "godly man" was delivered.

• God is allowing terrible things to happen so that the elect may be moved and
  • "obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory".

• For this the apostle endured all things.

Ques. How can the elect be moved?

J.T. Many of the elect are mixed up with things in the world. Before the war there was great development, but God has come in to upset all that; so that no man can talk about human progress now.

• And those in whom God is working are convinced that their hopes are not to be set upon earthly things. This is surely a great advantage.

S.L. In preaching the gospel you have not to convince people now that the world is wicked – it is evident.

J.T. Like the lost piece of silver, if the dust is shaken up the piece is more readily found.

Rem. The elect spoken of here have not been saved as yet.

J.T. All still unsaved would be in view. Those that we know as saints are definitely called "the elect" in Colossians, but here all are included.

Ques. Is the thought of "eternal glory" in verse 10, to show the greatness of the salvation? A preacher would have a world-wide view in preaching, not only the elect

J.T. Of course, God is very great, and He has every man before Him for blessing. Isaac, who is a type of Christ, blessed both Jacob and Esau, which suggests that blessing is for all.

Rem. If the preacher has a sense of the grace of God, he would make the invitation universal.

J.T. God will have all men to he saved. You must preach what is in God's mind if you want to preach effectively.

Rem. In the first chapter of Colossians it says,

• "whom we announce, admonishing every man, and teaching every man, in all wisdom, to the end that we may present every man perfect in Christ".

J.T. Paul had a wide field before him there.

Rem. We need to have our hearts enlarged.

T.M.G. God has blessing in His heart for all; but the elect only will appreciate it, and so come into the salvation that is in Christ Jesus.

J.T. "The word is faithful; for if we have died with him we shall also live together".

• This is in line with what we have been dwelling upon, correspondence with Christ's position in suffering and glory.
  • "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him". Then it says,

    "If we deny him, he also will deny us".

• John Baptist "confessed and denied not", we read in John 1: 20. He had a great opportunity to make much of himself, but he confessed and denied not; and then he went on to tell them of Christ, and confessed Him in His greatness. The great thing is to confess Him now.

R.W.G. John confessed and denied not. The fact of confessing brought about that he denied not. If he had not confessed, he would have denied.

J.T. They sent to find out if John were the Christ, but he confessed and denied not.

W.H.M. John took a very low place as being only "a voice".

T.M.G. He said of Jesus, "He must increase, but I must decrease".

Ques. How do you understand the word, "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful, he cannot deny himself"?

J.T. I suppose that is a fresh thought to stay our hearts "He abideth faithful".

• Unfaithfulness is not quite so serious as denial. I think it is a stay to the heart, if there has been failure, that the Lord remains faithful. The denial referred to here is a characteristic attitude taken up either in teaching or in practice.

Ques. Has it not a present application?

J.T. Yes, He abides faithful.

Rem. The apostle had proved that; he could say,

• "The Lord stood by me".

J.T. I think that those who are acquainted with the history of things can easily testify that the Lord has always provided, so that there is no need for any discouragement.

T.M.G. We have often seen how He remains faithful.

W.H. Why do you draw attention to that?

J.T. Because the tendency in our hearts is to please men and not God.

Rem. I suppose it would involve divine support?

J.T. Yes, God supports those whom He approves. The word of truth has to be cut in a straight line.

T.M.G. What is the force of that?

J.T. I suppose it is to be carefully held in its own setting, so that it is not misapplied. A crooked line would show carelessness; one is not to he biased in one's interpretation or use of Scripture.

E.M. There may be an endeavour to avoid reproach in the use we make of Scripture by seeking to please men.

J.T. Yes, Timothy was to have an "outline of sound words", which words he had heard of Paul "in faith and love, which are in Christ Jesus".

• This would be an outline of Paul's doctrine, as we have been saying, held in faith and love instead of as a creed Here we have the word of truth, which suggests another line of thought. This is to be "cut in a straight line".

Rem. This is the truth as one whole.

J.T. We read of "the scripture of truth" in Daniel 10: 21, but "the word of truth" is that which expresses it fully.

• It is important that every part of scripture should be first shown in its proper setting and then applied in ministry.

T.M.G. Would you illustrate that for us?

J.T. If you take up the prophets and seek to use them, as you are entitled to, in ministry, it should be made clear, if not so already, what any given passage primarily signifies, before a present application is made.

• It has to be remembered, too,
  • "that the scope of no prophecy of Scripture is had from its own particular interpretation, for prophecy was not ever uttered by the will of man, but holy men of God spake under the power of the Holy Spirit", 2 Peter 1: 20-21.

• It was revealed to the prophets that what they ministered they did not minister to themselves, but to us; 1 Peter 1: 12.

• This second epistle to Timothy makes much of Scripture, which is one whole, and no passage should be used to nullify another. It is holy, and should be used in a priestly way; it should be used with spiritual intelligence.

J.M. It has been said that there are many interpretations of Scripture.

J.T. There is one interpretation in connection with the whole scope of Scripture.

• "Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit".

• Each had his own part to write; but the Holy Spirit is the Author of all, and so there is one mind, behind the whole book.

• In Luke 24 the Lord Himself expounds from all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself; and He gives the intelligence as well, according to that chapter. He opened the understanding of the disciples that they should understand the Scriptures.

J.McG. This would save us from using one section of Scripture in disregard of the teaching of the others.

J.T. The types become of great value in ministry, and in reading for edification. The Scriptures afford "comfort" as we see how they present Christ.

S.L. It was "the things concerning himself" he spoke of. I suppose that all Scripture speaks of Him.

J.T. He is the theme of all Scripture.

Ques. Why does it say in Romans 15: 4 that "we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope"?

J.T. Because the Scriptures afford us many examples of patience. James says in chapter 5: 11,

• "Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy".

• The Scripture inspires hope in our hearts in that way.

T.M.G. They take you back to God.

J.T. Yes, the reference in verse 17, to these two men, Hymenaeus and Philetus, serves to bring out the great test for us in the last days,

• the great text upon which we act now, a kind of Magna Charta for the Christian in the last days.

• Satan would make it appear that there is no hope for the maintenance of the truth of the assembly nowadays.

This part of the epistle shows how the believer is always free; he need never be in bondage.

• Having drawn attention to the error, the apostle says that the foundation of God stands. That is the first great feature, and then the seal, which every believer should have, affords him a means of liberty.
  • "The Lord knoweth them that are his"

• assures you of the welfare of all the saints.
  • "Let every one that nameth the name of Christ [the Lord] depart from iniquity",

• delivers you from the influence of evil.

W.H. It is a great comfort for the last time.

J.T. The Christian is always free; no combination of circumstances can limit you.

J.M. You can always withdraw from evil.

W.H.M. What would "the foundation of God" imply here.

J.T. I think the point is, that it is God's foundation, which would, of course, be well known to Timothy, It is a sure foundation. Knowing God, we may be certain as to this.

• What is said here is that it stands. What is of God must stand; but then we are entitled to speak of it according to what it is. The Scriptures make that very plain.

• In Matthew 16 the foundation is,
  • "the Son of the living God".

• It is the question of Christ's Person there.
  • In 1 Corinthians 3, it is "Jesus Christ";

• the kind of Man that is presented in the gospels.

Rem. In regard to this chapter, would you say that it takes the place of what we get in 1 Corinthians?

J.T. No; this puts you in a position to get the benefit of 1 Corinthians. That epistle gives the Lord's commandments, which were intended to govern the assembly in the exercise of its functions and responsibilities here on earth.

Ques. How would that stand in relation to the law of the house of God as seen in 1 Corinthians?

J.T. Before any question can arise as to discipline, we have to see how an individual is liberated from evil.

T.M.G. We should feel the general state of things, and at the same time seek to be right ourselves.

J.T. We have here pointed out the features of the profession in the last days. The apostle reminds Timothy that he was acquainted with his own doctrine and manner of life; this would be ever the model for him, and the test for general conduct; further, all that would live godly in Christ Jesus should suffer persecution.

Rem. We have to be right individually, first, to form a true judgment of what is around.

J.T. I think the second chapter would set Timothy right in relation to his associations; his path is marked out for him in this respect there.

• In the third chapter it is the man of God in relation to the whole sphere bearing Christ's name.

• Having pointed out all that should develop in the last days, the apostle speaks of his doctrine and conduct and of what sufferings happened to him.
  • "What persecutions I endured; but out of them all the Lord delivered me".

• The example is seen in Paul, as regards the whole sphere of Christ's interests. Then he goes on to say
  • "Abide in those things which thou hast learnt … knowing of whom thou hast learned them".

• I think the chapter, in a general way, shows the position of the man of God in relation to the whole sphere of Christian profession.

Rem. I suppose that would help one in approaching Christians with whom one is not immediately associated. You are not narrowed in your affections towards them.

J.T. It is well to recognise that all Christians in the different denominations are not to be regarded as unclean or dishonourable, and

• "the Lord knoweth them that are his".

J.R.W. The vessels represent persons, there are four classes; gold, silver, wood and earth.

J.T. It shows that there are differences. The point is that there are

• "some to honour and some to dishonour".

J.R.W. Would the wood and earth involve dishonour?

J.T. It is only a figure. The subject of vessels becomes very interesting in Scripture. Christians are

• "vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory", Romans 9: 23.

• It speaks in Isaiah 22: 23, of a "nail in a sure place", and all vessels great and small are hung on it. All vessels unto honour may be said to hang on Christ. Paul says,
  • "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me", Philippians 4: 13.

• It is the opposite of one's own will. Pharaoh was a vessel fitted for destruction, being governed by his own will.

Ques. At what point should you separate from a vessel of dishonour?

J.T. I think when he is governed by his own will, One should not regard any as a vessel to dishonour until it has been tested, so opportunity is given for submission to Christ. If that is not there, the vessel is disqualified, because it is a question either of will or of subjection.

Ques. Must it be a personal testing?

J.T. Take Matthew 18 as an example, where one has trespassed, and you seek to gain him. You are unable to do so, and you tell it to the assembly, but he does not hear the assembly, that is the final test there, then he is a vessel to dishonour.

• The point is that his will is working; he refuses to bow to the judgment of the assembly. That is how things are tested in the house of God, and that applies in principle to the second chapter of this epistle

• It would be seen now in a man's recognition of the authority of Scripture and of the exercises of his brethren. If he is not subject you cannot go on with him Of course a man's will thus working would show itself in some evil doctrine or practice.

J.M. It is in the will that the evil lies.

T.M.G. He is not against you, but against the Lord, against the authority of the Lord.

J.T. When he refuses the Lord's authority, he may be regarded as a "heathen man and a publican".

• I believe that all will be put to the test, because God has brought in the order of His house, the principles that govern His house, and these become a test to every one in the sphere of profession.

• The test is there, but it is often ineffective, on account of the weakness of those who profess to walk in these principles.

Rem. You meet with it often. You can have sweet intercourse with professed Christians for a while, but when you introduce the truth there is often a refusal of it, and so you can go on no longer with them.

J.T. I remember speaking to a well-known man about fellowship. He said, I know it is there, but I will not touch it. He touched it afterwards, and became an opposer; of the principles that govern fellowship.

• When Israel were brought out of Egypt into the wilderness they were tested by the will of God. That was what God introduced. Further, He was to dwell among them, and as thus privileged, they were to be governed by certain laws.

• Leviticus and Numbers show the principles on which God tested His people, in this respect, in the wilderness. It was the will of God, as set forth in the principles that should govern His house; that became the test to Israel, so that Paul says
  • "If any one thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual let him recognise the thing that I write to you, that it is the commandment of the Lord", 1 Corinthians 14: 37.

  • The Lord says, "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me", John 14: 21.

• In chapter 3 it is the man of God as in relation to the whole sphere of Christian profession, because Christ is in relation to all that; and the Scriptures are available for him, so that be should be fully furnished.

Ques. Do you put any limitation on that?

J.T. The man of God is concerned about everything that concerns God.

Ques. Can you apply it generally?

J.T. The man of God stands in relation to all that is of God. He stands for God in regard to the governing of the world. He comes specially into evidence in a crisis. When things are going wrong the man of God stands in the breach.

T.M.G. It is important that we should have these divine principles in our souls, so that we should be men of God.

J.M. It speaks here of the things that Timothy had learned.

• "Knowing", the apostle says, "of whom thou hast learned them".

E.M. When Paul spoke of his qualifications he was speaking by the Spirit, he was not boasting of himself. He says,

• "thou hast fully known my doctrine".

• He had a full estimate of what he had from God.

J.T. This is an inspired letter.

S.L. These two chapters show what marks the present day.

J.T. There is one great comfort in chapter 3, that in the same manner as Jannes and Jambres were checked, the leaders in evil today are limited;

• "they shall proceed no further, for their folly shall be manifest to all".

• That is a positive statement. Moses brought in life, but the opposers could not imitate. They had to confess that now it was "the finger of God". I think this may be said to be John's ministry.

• The finger of God is the power of life brought out in the Person of Christ, and continued in the Spirit now. You cannot deny life. It stands out as a testimony to God's power.

Rem. The solemn thing is that the opposition is often from those immediately connected with the testimony.

J.T. Whatever the opposition may be it is met by life; there is the evidence of life in those that hold the truth by the Holy Spirit, and that cannot be refuted.

Rem. What is of God is always recognized by the people of God.

J.T. So you have here that their folly shall be manifest to all men. You might convince yourself privately, but you have to consider all the people of God. They have to be convinced, and it has been well said: You may deceive some of the people all the time, and all the people some of the time, but you cannot deceive all the people all the time.

• "Their folly shall be completely manifest to all".

T.M.G. It is an immense encouragement to count on God, to have faith in God.

J.T. And so the man of God sees God's hand in everything, even in the checking of evil in the government of the world at the present time. The mystery of evil is working, but is held in check.

Rem. And we ought to count on the faithfulness and power of God in regard to everything.

Rem. Paul's doctrine and spirit would be exemplified in the man of God.

J.T. Generally speaking, Paul's doctrine is the great test among the people of God, and it is a question as to who is supporting it.

• But there is "the manner of life" that goes with it, also the "purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience".

• Whatever you have from the Lord is for the people of God, and must not be used casually, for your own pleasure or for your personal interest. It is one of the assets that belong to the people of God. It says in Colossians 4: 17,
  • "take heed to the ministry which thou hast received in the Lord that thou fulfil it".

• One should hold nothing back from the people of God.

W.K. Mr. Stoney said that you are like a tree, to be plucked by others for their support and nourishment.

J.M. One is to be acceptable to the saints; the exhortations are to this end.

J.T. You see that with Paul himself. When the discussion arose with Barnabas regarding Mark, Paul was commended by the brethren as he proceeded to do the work of the Lord; Acts 15: 40. He had the confidence of his brethren. The result of this was that the assemblies were confirmed.

Rem. That would be a double commendation of Paul's course.

J.T. It is wonderful how the saints generally appreciate the word of God; and how in time they come to recognize what is of God.

Rem. You attach importance to the judgment of the saints?

J.T. Yes, it is usually the mind of God. Alas; we have occasions of general departure, as noted in this epistle when all in Asia turned away from Paul.

E.M. "Proclaim the word", and "Do the work of an evangelist"; what is the difference.

J.T. The word is the expression of the mind of God, but the evangelist is here for souls; he seeks men. The gospel, rightly presented, will secure them for God.

• Timothy is not said to be an evangelist, he is enjoined to do the work of an evangelist. The work has to be done. You are not only to present the mind of God; you want to win souls. They are not only to be secured, but they are to be presented
  • "perfect in Christ Jesus", Colossians 1: 28.

• We have a very solemn charge in the opening verses of chapter 4. The tendency is to let our hands hang down. Of course we should seek the Lord's guidance and help; but the work should be done.

Ques. What is the thought of His appearing and His kingdom?

J.T. The appearing of Christ is special, as compared with His kingdom. The latter will be a condition, marked by His rule, involving permanent blessing.

• The visitation of the King to a city or section of the realm would be special; whereas the kingdom, being permanently established, would be always enjoyed.

T.M.G. As regards service, the great thing is to be always ready.

J.T. Timothy was available. Paul had no other man like him. Timothy's ministry was all the more necessary, because Paul was being withdrawn. The great thing is that the work is carried on.

• Paul says, "I am now ready to be offered".

• Paul, being no longer available, Timothy must carry on the work, and then others after him. It is very interesting to note the different directions given to his beloved Timothy by the departing apostle.
  • "Use diligence to come to me quickly; for Demas has forsaken"

    Then he mentions others, adding,

  • "Luke alone is with me. Take Mark and bring him with thee, for he is serviceable to me for ministry".

• This chapter indicates the relative place of each of those mentioned, in regard to Paul.

Rem. He does not say that Demas had given up Christ.

J.T. Oh, no. Demas was no longer linked with Paul, but he may have continued in active service.

Rem. He had forsaken Paul, but the Lord takes care that the ministry is carried on in a living way.

J.T. And the power of God is ever available for those who carry it on.

• As regards general opposition to the truth, and wickedness, it is said in chapter 3,
  • "they shall proceed no further"; and here in chapter 4

  • "the Lord stood with me and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known".

• The Lord said, as it were, 'Paul is the servant of My choice, and I will not allow the enemy to deprive Me of him; I will accomplish all that I intended to accomplish through him'. Satan would either turn the saints away from Paul, or destroy him, but the Lord would have His way.

Rem. It is a very solemn thing to be on a line contrary to the Lord's mind. Paul says,

• "At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge", 2 Timothy 4: 16.

J.T. In forsaking him they were unfaithful, and God would hold them accountable. God knows how to make one feel his unfaithfulness;

• but the apostle's prayer is in keeping with the Spirit of Christ. The Lord asked His Father not to lay the sin of His death to the charge of the Jews.

Rem. Great reproach attached to the apostle, as representing the testimony.

J.T. Yes; his "first answer" was before the emperor, and he needed support then, but there was not a man to stand with him; he had to stand alone for the defence of the gospel.

Rem. So if the Lord is pleased to take up a vessel, He will not give him up, if he is faithful.

J.T. There is reproach connected with the testimony, but Paul says,

• "The Lord stood with me and strengthened me, that by me the preaching might be fully known", 2 Timothy 4: 17.

• He was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. He was very near his end, but the Lord came in, so that by him the preaching was fully known amongst the nations. There is no failure in Paul's service suggested here.

• I think it is an immense thing to see that the Lord will not be diverted from any choice He makes. He will stand by those vessels and carry them through.

Ques. Why is Priscilla put before Aquila?

J.T. I suppose, because she was spiritual as well as Aquila. The Spirit of God makes no mistake in placing her first here. They laid down their own necks for Paul; Romans 16: 4.

Now that leads to practical righteousness in the Christian as a matter of moral sequence. In Romans he has obeyed from the heart the form of doctrine that was delivered to him,

• so that in chapter 6 the truth is wrought out on moral grounds, and one's body is yielded to God, and one's members as instruments of righteousness to God.

• It is a moral result, so that Christ becomes Head in Romans on the same ground; that is, on moral ground. He proves Himself qualified to be Head.

• In Colossians He is Head in right of His own Person, He is Head on the ground of what He is personally.

• In Ephesians He is made Head, but in Romans He is Head on moral grounds.

G.W.W. You are referring to the end of Romans 5.

J.T. Yes, things are all put on moral grounds in Romans, whereas in John's epistle they are the result of generation, of our being born of God. He says,

• "If ye know that he is righteous, know that everyone who practises righteousness is begotten of him", 1 John 2: 29

• It is on the ground of birth, so that as born of God we practise righteousness.

G.W.W. That has become characteristic of us.

J.T. So Abel is introduced as the typically righteous man, and Cain as the opposite.

W.L.P. Why do you bring in headship in connection with righteousness?

J.T. I was referring to Romans 5. The "one man" by whom righteousness and life are made effective for all men is necessarily Head. The Man through whom men are blessed, and in whom they are blessed and established.

• In 2 Timothy recovery is to Paul's line of things, so that this epistle runs parallel with Ezra and Nehemiah. What would be observed in Ezra and Nehemiah is that David's ministry and headship are made prominent. Moses is of course assumed, but David is specially brought forward.

J.S. Why do you mention Paul's line?

J.T. His ministry is the test; it has been the test throughout, from the time it was introduced.

• It becomes a question now of the genealogical register, and of each one proving his genealogy. As regards the generality of saints, we have to admit we do not know them. Paul formally states it here;
  • "the Lord knows those that are his",

• implying that others may not, but each one can prove his genealogy. I think this letter shows how each one can prove his title.

J.D-s. That remark is made in regard of the Jews in the days of Ezra and Nehemiah.

J.T. One great point was that the genealogy of each should be established; having been down in Babylon, who could have told what alliances they had formed?

W.L.P. A Christian should not compromise his genealogy by any alliances that are contrary to Christ.

A.F.M. What you are remarking in regard to genealogy is very striking, in Ezra and Nehemiah.

J.T. I think Ezra would be what you might call the genealogical editor of the Old Testament. Certainly there was such an one as that. It was an important point throughout in the writings that genealogies should be kept.

• In Genesis 10 the families of Noah are given to us to show how each nation had its origin.
  • "These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations. And from these came the distribution of the nations on the earth after the flood", Genesis 10: 32.

• In 1 Chronicles the genealogies bring out, we may say, the relation in which each one stood to David.

B.P. Those that name the name of the Lord prove their genealogy?

J.T. I think that is it. That is the first feature of a Christian's genealogy, that he names the name of the Lord, and as doing so he withdraws from iniquity.

B.T.F. Would you give us an illustration of that? Was Onesiphorus one who proved his genealogy? Being in Rome he sought out the apostle and found him and was not ashamed of his chain.

G.W.W. You mean to say the moral characteristics of Christ came out in him? A man proves his genealogy because he shows he is morally in accord with Christ.

J.T. It is remarkable that the apostle says,

• "The Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus", 2 Timothy 1: 16.

B.T.F. The fact of his searching the apostle out proved that the divine nature was there, that he was born of God.

J.T. Quite right. And now that iniquity has found a place among those that call professedly on the name of the Lord the question is how true Christians are to be brought to light.

A.F.M. I suppose iniquity refers to the condition of things that obtained in Babylon?

J.T. Yes, so withdrawal from it would be the proof that one was genuine.

A.A.T. If you saw a supposed Christian withdrawing from iniquity and following righteousness, faith and love, you would have no doubt as to his belonging to the Lord .

J.T. I think in that way he would establish his genealogy, that he was of the line.

• It is remarkable how the Lord in going into the house of Zacchaeus established Zacchaeus' genealogy. He gave him a remarkable genealogy, saying,
  • "he also is a son of Abraham", Luke 19: 9.

• That was his genealogy.

B.T.F. Does that mean morally?

J.T. It was because he had faith; he wanted to see the Lord Jesus. Abraham rejoiced to see the Lord Jesus and Zacchaeus got up into a tree to see Him. He wanted to see Him.

G.W.W. Then I suppose what we get in Ezra about their seeking their register in the book of the priesthood would correspond to the Lord knowing them that are His?

• We may not be able to trace the genealogy of all the saints, but He knows them.

• The only ones we can accredit are those whose genealogy we can trace. Is that the thought?

J.T. Quite. The priest with Urim and Thummim could find out what was of God in any man, whereas the principle on which natural religion goes would preclude many being discovered.

• Zacchaeus would have been shut out in spite of the fact that he had faith, whereas the Priest being there, He saw that he was a true son of Abraham.

B.P. Is there any connection with Ezra and Nehemiah, in regard to this firm foundation standing sure? I was thinking of what they came back to in connection with the wall.

J.T. I suppose the foundation was there. The gates, it appears, had the same names after they were reared again as they had before.

A.A.T. Coming back to Zacchaeus, how does his righteousness come out?

J.T. He said he had given half his goods to the poor. It was more than a tenth, and if he took anything away from anybody fraudulently, he restored fourfold. He does not mean to imply that he would continue taking away by fraud. He meant that he had done so, but wherever he had taken it he restored it fourfold.

G.W.W. Do you think that was his declaration in consequence of grace touching his heart, that it was what he then and there confessed before the Lord? Grace touching his heart, he saw that the injustice had to be put right.

J.T. It seems that he states it as characteristic of his dealings.

• "I return [him] fourfold", Luke 19: 8.

• It is what he did. I think it is on the principle of the practice of righteousness.

• Of those that were present, it says, "all murmured" when they saw it, saying, "He has turned in to lodge with a sinful man". But Zacchaeus stood, and said to the Lord;
  • "Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor, and if I have taken anything from any man by false accusation, I return [him] fourfold", Luke 19: 7-8.

    The Lord immediately says,

    "Today salvation is come to this house, inasmuch as he also is a son of Abraham".

• There is the genealogy of the man plainly stated by the Priest, and it is in connection with the evidence of righteousness.

• Now if it were simply conforming to legal requirement he would have restored what he had taken away. There was no need of his giving any of his goods to the poor, whereas he gives half of them. He is on the line of the righteousness of God, the righteousness which is of faith.

G.W.W. All even the law would have demanded would be to add a fifth part thereto, but he exceeded all that.

W.L.P. I suppose the Lord wants to bring His person before Zacchaeus, so as to attach his faith to him.

J.T. Yes. I think he represents a Christian who is delivered. There are many who have really good desires but they are not regulated by Christ.

• There was nothing out of the way in his going up the tree, you might say, because he had a good intent in going up into it; but it was his own idea; it was not by the Lord's direction, so that he has to come under the direction of the Lord.
  • So He says, "Come down".

• However good your intention, everything must be regulated by Christ in your relations;
  • "for today I must remain in thy house", Luke 19: 5.

• It seems to me as if the Lord would bring him under His regulating influence first, and then He says, "I must remain in thy house"; and as in his house He says,
  • "Today salvation is come to this house".

• It is in the house of a son of Abraham.

A.P. On account of faith it is practical righteousness.

J.T. Faith was there, but the Lord does not say here, "Thy faith has saved thee", Luke 7: 50. He does say this earlier in the gospel in chapters 7 and 8, but here it is more what the man was, and the evidence of his genealogy.

A.N.W. Why does the Lord go beyond righteousness and say, "Salvation is come"?

J.T. Righteousness in itself is not salvation; practical righteousness is what you do, salvation is what God effects.

G.A.T. Would you say Zacchaeus got adjusted before that through his own confession?

J.T. I think he was adjusted outside the house. He went in and received the Lord joyfully, it says.

A.F.M. "Today salvation is come to this house" involves more than forgiveness. The Lord meant that there was to be complete deliverance from the power of the enemy.

J.T. There was power in His presence for that. The kingdom was there.

A.P. What would that house include?

J.T. The family. There are many things that arise in the domestic circle that Satan can act upon, and the first great point is to have righteousness there and having righteousness, you find the power of God supporting you. Thus salvation is realised.

A.A.T. We were speaking this morning of the sinner in Luke 18, who went down to his house justified. The house is mentioned there also. He was a justified man in that house, but was he saved?

J.T. You would not go so far. You see he went down to his house justified, it does not say that the Lord sent him there. It simply says he went down justified, he went down a different man from what he had been.

• But in the fifth chapter the Lord sends the paralytic to his house carrying his bed, as if to imply that He could commit Himself to this man now.

A.P. But going down to his house justified, his family would come in for the benefits of that, would they not?

J.T. Quite. The children would have a righteous father now, and the wife would have a righteous husband.

Ques. Would that not imply salvation to that house?

J.T. Well, the groundwork of it is there, but salvation is a question of God's power,

• "With [the] heart is believed to righteousness; and with [the] mouth confession made to salvation", Romans 10: 10.

• As we confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus, we get the support of God.

A.A.T. In Zacchaeus' house there are two thoughts; the Lord says, "I must remain in thy house", Luke 19: 5, and then, "salvation is come". Does one follow on the other?

J.T. Salvation was involved in His presence there. I do not say it always depends on the Lord's presence, but this was so while He was down here. Now it is effected through the Holy Spirit.

• The kingdom of God is Christ exalted and the Holy Spirit here, and we come into it by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

• But Zacchaeus would learn by the presence of Christ in his house how to deal with sin in the house afterwards.

A.A.T. Is there a practical application of that today?

J.T. I think there is. I think we must learn how to cope with sin if it manifests itself, in those relations.

A.A.T. And in the measure in which we do we are fit to rule in the assembly.

J.T. I think we are able to rule in the assembly in that way. A man must have a good conscience in his own house before he can count on Christ to support him in it. That is, his own spirit must be right.

• Then in Luke 5 the man is sent to his house by the Lord Himself, which is another matter. I am now to represent Him there. It is a serious matter to have to represent the Lord there. He has given me power to go there, for in carrying my bed back into the house obviously I have power. It is for me to continue to use it now.

W.C.R. You spoke of Onesiphorus and the apostle asking that he might have mercy shown to his house. Why is his house mentioned?

J.T. Paul knew how a right minded man regarded his house. Of Noah it is said that

• he "prepared an ark for the saving of his house", Hebrews 11: 7.

• No doubt Paul knew the exercises Onesiphorus had as to his house, hence his deep and tender desires in regard of this dear man who had shown himself so true when others were turning away from the apostle. Notice that Paul after speaking of his house continues:
  • "The Lord grant to him to find mercy from [the] Lord in that day", 2 Timothy 1: 18.

• Now in 2 Timothy 2: 19 this acknowledgment of the Lord in withdrawing from evil is of the greatest possible importance for us now, as proving our genuineness in the midst of so much unreality.

G.A.T. You get the principle carried out in the sons of Levi, in connection with the golden calf. Moses called for all on the Lord's side to come out to the tabernacle.

J.T. Yes "Who is on the Lord's side", Exodus 32: 26, he says.

• It is what you do that proves your reality.

B.T.F. Do you limit this to the ecclesiastical position?

J.T. The apostle refers especially to the evil that had come in amongst these that were calling on the Lord professedly. He says,

• "But profane, vain babblings shun, for they will advance to greater impiety, and their word will spread as a gangrene; of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; [men] who as to the truth have gone astray, saying that the resurrection has taken place already; and overthrow the faith of some", 2 Timothy 2: 16-18.

• It evidently refers to evil introduced among the people of God.

G.W.W. Yes; and the only man that can cope with it is the man that is really of the genealogy of the One that hated lawlessness.

• If lawlessness comes into that which has the responsibility of being the house of God, the only one that can deal with it is the one who is of that genealogy. Christ hated lawlessness.

J.T. In calling on the name of the Lord, you are committed to all that is in that Name.

J.S. In the first place I suppose it is a question of His authority; and in the second place, our withdrawal from evil as hating it.

J.T. So that it is in that way consistency. Consistency is a great feature of Christianity; consistency with the principles we hold, with the truth we hold.

G.A.T. When does this take place in my soul?

J.T. When you make a definite break with evil. It is the breaking off of relations with those that you have been allied with that is the test. As was said to the sons of Levi:

• "Who is on the Lord's side?", Exodus 32: 26.

• Are you prepared to take the sword, so to speak, and use it against your brother? That requires spiritual energy, because you have to do violence to natural feelings.

A.F.M. In Romans 10: 13 it says, "Every one whosoever, who shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved".

• Here it is "those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart".

J.T. I think emphasis is laid on consistency and transparency in this chapter.

• "Let everyone who names the name of [the] Lord withdraw from iniquity",

• that is consistency. It is but consistent to withdraw from iniquity if I am calling on the name of the Lord,
  • but I may be apart from outward lawlessness as professedly calling on the Lord and yet not have a pure heart.

• Calling on the Lord out of a pure heart, I think only of Him and His interests. I am simple and transparent in my motives and actions.

A.N.W. Iniquity is a strong word. What is your thought about it?

J.T. It expresses evil or unrighteousness. Of course the Christian must judge and refuse it in himself; but withdrawal from it implies that it is accepted and practised by others, so that in withdrawing from it you have to withdraw from them.

B.T.F. What about false creeds held in religious systems around?

J.T. I suppose they are what is called "systematised error".

G.A.T. As a rule, do we not understand that as having withdrawn from "system", that is all the evil we have to withdraw from?

J.T. We have a specific case here, of men saying, "the resurrection has taken place already", 2 Timothy 2: 18. That is a concrete ease of iniquity.

• It takes other forms now, but we are called upon to judge it in its varied features and withdraw from it as inconsistent with the Name upon which we call, the Lord Jesus Christ.

J.D-s. What we have to do, therefore, is to separate from those who, like Hymenaeus and Philetus are in any way practising or identified with evil.

J.T. Yes, so the apostle goes on to say, using the figure of the vessels:

• "If therefore one shall have purified himself from these, [in separating himself from them], he shall be a vessel to honour, sanctified, serviceable to the Master".

• Evidently the separation is from persons.

J.D-s. Just so. Would you give us the force of the expression we have in the New Translation,

• "Let every one who names the name of [the] Lord"?

J.T. I think the Lord's name implies His renown, all that came out in Him; that is what you are committed to in your profession.

J.D-s. That is, to use profession in the proper sense of the term; if you profess the name of the Lord and all it involves, in that way name the name of the Lord, it is for you to separate from evil as seen in men such as those we have here before us.

G.W.W. It is important to bear that in mind. You separate from persons only by reason of their identification with what is evil. That has to be borne in mind to convey the right thought to people from whom we do separate.

• There are some who are not personally evil, but because they are identified with evil principles we are compelled to separate from them; that puts us on right ground.

• People may say they are Christians as much as you are, they are children of God, but because they are going on with principles contrary to the name of the Lord we have to separate from them.

J.D-s. It says, "[The] Lord knows those that are his". That is our refuge.

J.T. We leave them with the Lord. We cannot say whether they are genuine or not, but He knows.

W.L.P. Do we not think a little too much sometimes of the company separating from evil, instead of us as individuals separating from evil?

J.T. It is individual here.

W.L.P. We often use the thought of withdrawing from evil in a collective sense.

J.T. Basing our position on this scripture, the principle now is withdrawal.

A.A.T. It is not "putting away" exactly.

J.T. In Corinth the assembly prerogative is formally recognised, and there was power in the assembly to deal with the person who was guilty. Instead of withdrawing from him they put him away.

B.T.F. Do you withdraw from vessels to honour, or is it only from vessels to dishonour?

J.T. "These" are the last mentioned. "If, therefore, one shall have purified himself from these [in separating himself from them]". "These" would be vessels to dishonour.

B.T.F. There might be vessels to honour in systems that you might have to withdraw from.

J.T. All are to prove their genealogy, you see. You do not know. The fact that they say they are true does not prove it. The test is, do they separate themselves as naming the name of the Lord.

• As a matter of fact it is consistency with the truth of Christianity, that is the test. What I think should be pressed as much as anything is consistency, and following upon that transparency.

• In Revelation the real ones are seen on a sea of glass; things are all transparent. We know, however, thank God! that there are many pious ones in the several denominations, but we cannot walk with them because of their associates.

J.S. If the assembly was in power there would be no need for withdrawal. There would be power to deal with evil by putting away those who practise it. Now it is a question of withdrawing from it.

J.T. That is the principle now. Whatever words we may use, we should make it clear that while we do not pretend to be the assembly of God, we must maintain the order and holiness which marks it.

J.D-s. This instruction is for the servant, is it not?

J.T. The epistle affords instruction for all for the last days, but especially for the servant or man of God. In verse 19 we have "every one".

G.A.T. Another scripture says, "they went out from among us, but they were not of us", 1 John 2: 19. Is that another side?

J.T. They went out from the apostles.

G.A.T. My thought was that if a company were in a good spiritual state the wicked man would go out himself. Would you agree to that?

J.T. We have to deal with evil, however, when it manifests itself. It will not do to leave it to remove itself.

G.A.T. Only in Corinthians do you hear of one being "put away".

J.T. Yes, but evil may exist without any overt acts, and you have to wait for an overt act in order to exercise discipline.

• Even in the case of Judas, there was no overt act until he went out to betray the Lord. He was allowed to go on.

• The antichrists John speaks of probably would not commit anything in an outward way that would be regarded as a sin; being servants of Satan, they would avoid that.

G.A.T. I thought, that if the Lord's presence were known amongst a company, you find evil going out. In the second chapter of John's gospel the Lord drove it out, but I thought if the rights of God were maintained amongst us, and the Lord had His place amongst us, evil would go out of itself.

J.T. No doubt there is some truth in that, but we have to deal with it. We judge those within. There has to be that principle.

B.T.F. You would say there should be priestly discernment, but you cannot go beneath the surface.

J.S. It would not do to assume apostolic authority.

J.T. I think the principle of withdrawal is what holds. It may be asked as to those calling on the Lord out of a pure heart, What will they do with evil?

• I would say, if it is there we must deal with it, but the ground each individual takes in his own soul is, that if it is not dealt with he cannot go on with it. That is the ground to take: you cannot go on with evil.

W.H.F. Would you think that for putting away you must have the assembly to do it? You have the authority in Scripture not to go on with evil but to separate from it? In the present time the assembly is in ruin, there is failure, so that, if evil arises you have to separate from it.

J.T. The question is what is within and what is without now, 1 Corinthians 5: 12. It was very clear when Paul wrote to the Corinthians that

• "those without God judges", 1 Corinthians 5: 13.

• That was simple enough because it referred to anybody outside the assembly at Corinth; but when you come to the "great house", what is within and what is without? They are all inside of it, the good and bad vessels.

W.H.F. Then the point is, vessels to honour and vessels to dishonour, and,

• "if therefore one shall have purified himself from these … he shall be a vessel to honour, sanctified, serviceable to the Master, prepared for every good work".

J.T. That is still inside, all are inside.

W.H.F. We have been a great failure in assuming to be the assembly, and all that.

J.T. As far as I see, "inside" today as always, is the sphere of Christian profession, and "outside" is heathendom or Judaism. What do you say about that?

J.D-s. I have great difficulty. I quite realise that 2 Timothy 2 is what would stand. We used it years ago and would use it now, there is no change in that respect,

• but what I see is that there is serious danger of giving up and excluding from our thoughts principles that actuated the assembly of God in the beginning; given in apostolic times, but given, in my view, for the guidance of the assembly of God in all times, and for me to do that would be peril.

J.T. The first thing is to determine what is to govern me primarily, in the ruined state of things.

• Now if you take Israel, the immediate word that governed them in their recovery was the decree of Cyrus, which had no place in the law of Moses. It had no place in David's instructions, nor in any that followed.

• Now that was an extraordinary situation, but Cyrus' command was the immediate word that was to govern them. After they were governed by that they were gradually led, in principle at least, into all the light given to Moses and David; but then, they had to come in, so to speak, by that gate.

• It was a very humiliating gate. It meant their utter shame, that they had sinned, that God had to take up a Gentile monarch to tell them what to do. But afterwards they reached a height spiritually that exceeded even David's day or anything subsequent to that.

• In other words, if we come in by the appointed way, all that God has for us is before us. There is not a bit of it that is not open to use.

• I think 2 Timothy is the gate of entrance now to what is of God, but as children of wisdom we recognise the altered conditions and act accordingly.

W.H.F. I can understand that it is our privilege to walk individually in the light of that which was set up at the beginning, but I see the danger of assuming to be anything in the way of the assembly.

J.T. You do not assume to be anything in an outwardly formal or official way, although cherishing the light of the assembly in your heart, and conforming to it as far as conditions admit.

J.D-s We often say that God permitted a number of things to be arranged in apostolic times, that we might have guidance in these days, and, while I am quite sure that we are in 2 Timothy times, and I am quite clear that what you say is correct, that we must approach things in that way,

• still I would be sorry myself to see the principles that underlie the epistle to the Corinthians, for instance, given up or in any way belittled.

J.T. I am sure every one would say Amen to that, but the question is how you approach them.

• As I remarked, the Jews came back to Jerusalem by the decree of Cyrus, and it was also to build the house, but when they came back they set up an altar. That was what they did before they laid the foundation of the house. They reared up an altar.

• Cyrus did not tell them to do that. He simply, as it were, opened the gate for them, and it was a very humiliating one, but it led to the feast of tabernacles, which exceeded what was in David's time.

• So there is nothing to fear on these lines. You will get Corinthians, and Colossians, and Ephesians if you go in by the appointed way.

J.D-s. If that is clear I have nothing more to say; but I am not so sure that it is in some people's minds.

J.T. It is humbling to have to acknowledge that what was once owned of God is now a "great house" in which vessels to honour and dishonour are present. Good and bad are admittedly there, and whatever our exercise and zeal for God, we cannot get out of this great house.

• We are not called upon to leave it, but to separate from vessels of dishonour. Each one has to do this, and then follow righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

• This is the gate of recovery; going in by it, all that God has for us is available. All the light of Paul's epistles, of all Scripture indeed, is for our furnishing.

• But as children of wisdom saints in such a position would use Scripture soberly, always having the sadly altered conditions in mind.

G.W.W. If evil arises in the midst of a company of saints who are walking together in the light of divine principles it can be no more tolerated than it was at the beginning, the evildoer must be dealt with. That is clear. Therefore that company, without assuming any corporate position at all, does act collectively in reference to that evildoer.

J.T. You and I act together if we can, but the principle that governs us both is that we cannot go on with evil. All should surely have this judgment and be of one mind about it; and so act together in dealing with it.

• At the same time, we do not assume to be acting with the authority of the assembly, nor do we use any formula that would imply this.

A.A.T. You do not assume the power to put away the evildoer.

J.T. You cannot go on with the evil. There can be no question that evil has to be judged and refused as really as it was at the beginning.

• Here 1 Corinthians 5 helps, as showing how the apostle judged it as affecting the saints, and how he sought to get them to judge it and clear themselves of it.

• But what has ever to be before us is that no company of saints now can occupy the same position as the assembly at Corinth, and so we cannot act formally as they were commanded to "put away"; then such an act was from the assembly, indeed from the sphere of Christian profession.

A.R.S. Do you mean that if there is evil in a meeting and the rest of the assembly do not see it, you would be responsible yourself to withdraw from it?

J.T. That is the ground you take. Of course you would seek to exercise the others so that there might be united action, but at any rate, you cannot go on with the evil.

A.N.W. In Thessalonians Paul says:

• "If anyone obey not our word by the letter, mark that man, and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed of himself; and do not esteem him as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother", 2 Thessalonians 3: 14-15.

  Would not that apply today?

J.T. I think it would. Such an one is not regarded as a "wicked person", however.

G.W.W. Here in Corinthians it is a wicked person with whom we are going to walk no more. He has ceased to follow righteousness.

J.T. That is the judgment you have come to in your soul, and, as walking with you, I have come to it too, so we act together in judging the sin or the person who has sinned;

• but we do not assume to act as the assembly.

• But at the same time, as seeking to maintain the holiness of the house of God, the Lord supports us in a very real way. As there is power there would be moral authority present, and this would make itself felt.
  • But there is no claim to assembly authority.

G.W.W. I suppose what we do is we declare that that man is unfit for any Christian company.

J.T. You do so far as your act is concerned, but that would not alter the man's outward position ecclesiastically. He is in the great house and you cannot alter his position as there.

• You are altering your own position as regards him. Although there may not be much to object to as to the manner of dealing with sin arising among the saints, we do well to inquire, where is a person put away from, and, inferentially, where to?