| 4 – SONSHIP |
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| DIVINE PERSONS AND OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEM (4) Galatians 3: 21-29; Romans 3: 14,15; Hebrews 2: 10 |
J.T. We have before us the subject of sonship at this time, and in the afternoon we shall have, God willing, the subject of the brethren of Christ.
J.R.H. Reference was made to the angels as on the morning of creation; would the contrast be seen in Lucifer, son of the morning? "How art thou fallen from heaven, Lucifer, son of the morning!", Isaiah 14: 12.
J.T. That is a matter of the fallen angels, beings who have left their first estate even as seen in Genesis 6.
R.W.S. Much is made of the matter of time, as seen in what it says in Galatians 3: 23:
J.T. That is to show the thing as regards time. It is a figure of speech in that passage – kept under governors and tutors until that time, speaking of Old Testament conditions. They were kept under tutors and governors until a time set by the father.
A.N.W. "But because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father". Galatians 4: 6.
J.T. The fact is, the time has come, the time appointed by the Father. That is we are in the time of sonship and we get the Spirit because we are in that time.
F.W. Is "the fulness of the time", Galatians 4: 4 in contrast to the period of waiting before?
J.T. Quite so. It is a question of time, and what a question it is! I think the brethren do well to look into this. Many are struggling with their state, whereas in truth the question of sonship does not depend upon state at all, it is a question of being a subject of the work of God in the time we are living in.
R.M. Do we come into sonship through the death of Christ?
J.T. It is a question of redemption being accomplished. When was redemption accomplished? It is a question of time.
F.K.C. There are many struggling with their state, but realising that we are sons of God would set us free? Galatians 3: 26.
H.B. We read in John's gospel of "in that day"; is that, as referring to the Spirit's day, similar to your thought as to the present period?
J.T. Well, it is; "in that day", in John 14: 20 is full christianity, the full revelation of divine Persons.
A.R. Does "for ye are all God's sons by faith in Christ Jesus", Galatians 3: 26 include sisters as well as brothers?
J.T. Certainly. One would like the sisters to take on this matter because it is not a question of state or teaching or service in that sense, but of being the period of sonship. It is for each one to take it on and the Spirit comes in to help us to enjoy it and show the characteristics of it.
A.R. It is the Spirit saying, "Abba, Father".
J.P. There is a note to 'sonship' in verse 5:
J.T. That is it. What is said in Galatians 3: 26 is to be born in mind and then Galatians 4: 4,
J.J. Hebrews 11 gives a list of those who have had faith.
J.T. The point in Hebrews 11 is that things were done and enjoyed by faith anticipatively, beginning with Abel.
A.R. "There is no male and female", Galatians 3: 28 what have you in your mind about that?
J.T. That is just what it says:
L.K. "For ye are all one in Christ Jesus", Galatians 3: 28:
J.T. The point there is the word 'in', "in Christ Jesus". It is the position we are in outwardly – we are in Christ Jesus. It is the fact of our position in Christ.
L.K. And it goes on, "but if ye are of Christ", – what about the 'If?
J.T. It is the 'if' of hypothesis: "But if ye are of Christ, then ye are Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise". If one thing is so, then another thing is so.
A.S.B. In Luke 20: 36 it says, "For they are equal to angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection";
J.T. That is confirmed here in verses 28 and 29. So that the position of sonship is a matter of light for our souls to take in. But we are not simply left with light, we have the Spirit; that is the point in chapter 4:
J.T.Jr. The idea of the commonwealth in Philippians would convey the thought of sonship in the way of light.
J.T. Our commonwealth is in heaven.
J.T.Jr. We all have the same status, there is no question of male or female.
P.L. Would it be "the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven". Hebrews 12: 23? We have come to that.
J.T. Very good, "the assembly of the firstborn"; we are dealing with Levites and every Levite was a firstborn; the Levites were taken from the whole of Israel. There might be five or six sons but each one was a firstborn. We are dealing with that – those registered in heaven; and that fits with what was said a minute ago that our commonwealth is in heaven.
P.L. We "have come to mount Zion", Hebrews 12: 22, as if we are saluted in sonship in all the majesty of the divine realm.
J.T. Quite so. We are said to have come to eight things in that chapter.
P.L. I wondered if this line of sonship would not move our souls from the start, promoting with us the spirit of mutuality and spiritual respect for the sons of God.
J.T. We have the time of sonship in mind by itself; that is a matter of light.
J.T.Jr. "There is no Jew nor Greek; there is no bondman nor freeman; there is no male and female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus", Galatians 3: 28.
J.T. It is a matter of light, and as light comes in the brethren become interested about things because these meetings offer liberty to the Spirit to help the brethren, both brothers and sisters.
J.R.H. Would you please say something about "the Spirit of his Son"?
J.T. We see affections come in there. It is not simply a question of the incarnation but of the Spirit of His Son – what He is as Son to the Father – that Spirit pervading us.
A.MacD. Does "into our hearts", suggest affection?
J.T. And urgency, because the word 'crying' is remarkable – the idea of crying.
W.L. Is there something specially for the heart of God in sonship?
J.T. We shall come to that in Romans 8 and then in Hebrews 2; that is to say, God is bringing many sons to glory and we are linked with that. It is what He is doing now, bringing many sons to glory – that is the point – to something.
J.S. Is the thought of teaching therefore helpful in the matter?
J.T. The Lord is taking great pains with the brethren in giving us these meetings. The local brethren arrange them and hold their houses open so that we might all come into the sphere where the Spirit of God is free, and we get light as to the truth.
G.A.S. What is suggested in verse 21 of chapter 3 in relation to the quickening?
J.T. It says: "For if a law had been given able to quicken, then indeed righteousness were on the principle of law", Galatians 3: 21.
R.W.S. Is there special emphasis on the word "receive", – "that we might receive sonship"? Galatians 4: 5.
J.T. Quite so. It is a gift.
R.W.S. Is there special importance in understanding that this is the time of which the Lord said to the crowd, "ye do not discern this time", Luke 12: 56? The time of special importance, the time of redemption accomplishing; it is a question of understanding this glorious time.
J.T. One wonders how the brethren regard it. What progress is being made in these great things? Because it is a question of getting into these great things.
L.K. There is urgency in regard of the crying. Is the great thought that there should be an outlet for the Spirit in persons crying, "Abba, Father"?
J.T. I would say that.
J.S. In Solomon we have a dual thought of sonship,
J.T. Quite so. It is a question of Solomon's affection for his mother.
F.K.C. "God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts", Galatians 4: 6.
J.T. All that is included, for the time has come that was appointed by the father, faith having come.
A.R. "So thou art no longer bondman, but son", Galatians 4: 7.
J.T. The point here is not so much that we are no longer bondmen, but that we are sons. And all the saints in that way come into it by faith in Christ Jesus.
J.R.H. In times when soul difficulties arise a person often puts himself in bondage, whereas it is a matter of being set free by the truth.
J.T. We should know what is right, and therefore the objective side is very important in looking away from yourself and understanding what you really are.
P.L. Is it not the level of Deuteronomy: "Ye are sons of Jehovah your God"? Everything flows from that idea.
J.T. "Ye are". We get something like that in the types as to the Levites, what they were; but then after all we are dealing now with christianity, and even Deuteronomy, the greatest teaching of the Old Testament, is in the time of tutorship and governors. We are not in that time, we are already in the time which God has appointed.
P.L. The Spirit was focusing on this time.
G.A.S. In Romans it is heirs through the Lord Jesus Christ, but here it is through God.
J.T. It is just an enlarged thought; it is a question of divine Persons. It may be through the Lord, or through the Spirit even, or through God; it is a question of divine Persons and how things are enlarged.
A.R. In Luke 15: 18 the prodigal says: "I have sinned", and then it says the father ran. The prodigal does not say all he was going to say.
J.T. The father does not imply that he should not have said, "I have sinned", because he should have said it. "I am no longer worthy to be called thy son", – the father is not saying that he should not say that. He should.
S.J.H. Refined feelings are needed such as were evidenced with the Lord Himself. He said to Jerusalem,
J.T. He wept over them. Perhaps we do not know much about that, about tears in regard of the state of the saints.
B.W. That the saints may not only have the light of sonship, but the consciousness of it.
J.T. That is really the thing. And the sisters are in this too. We want them in it, that the sisters should take in the understanding of the truth and not just leave it with their husbands.
W.W.M. The elder son is called "Child", in Luke 15. Has he not appreciated the time of sonship yet?
J.T. The father says: "Child, thou art ever with me, and all that is mine is thine", Luke 15: 31.
J.T.Jr. Galatians 4: 9 says, "How do ye turn again to the weak and beggarly principles to which ye desire to be again anew in bondage?".
J.T. That is what the apostle is aiming at, to break it up, this going back to the beggarly elements.
L.K. Galatians 4: 7 says, "But if son, heir also through God".
J.T. That is to say, "heir … through God", is a question of instrumentality; "no longer bondman, but son; but if son, heir also through God", Galatians 4: 7.
J.R.H. It seems to be a matter of negating the flesh as seen in the previous verses.
J.T. "So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to flesh; for if ye live according to flesh, ye are about to die",
W.L. You would say that we must give the Spirit His full place if we are to get the greatest gain and if God is to get the greatest gain from sonship.
J.T. That is good. The Spirit is essential to sonship here and therefore we must make much of the idea of "the time", that it is the time of sonship, being the "period fixed by the father", the time of faith; and the Spirit cannot be ignored if we are to make the most of it.
J.T.Jr. Would He not lead in everything?
J.T. Yes, in everything you must recognise the Spirit.
J.R.H. It means then that the state that belongs to sonship is seen in the ability to mortify the deeds of the body by the Spirit?
J.T. That is what it says: "If, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live", Romans 8: 13.
A.N.W. In Romans we cry, "Abba, Father". In Galatians the Spirit cries.
J.T. There is some advance there. This is what we do. We do it in the Spirit in the time of sonship, showing the need of the Spirit. We need Him, He enters into it and we use Him, speaking reverently.
R.W.S. Does this thought of the leadership of the Spirit carry through to the service of God in the Supper?
J.T. That is another matter to be considered, because when we come to the actual position of the service of God it is said that Christ is Minister of the sanctuary, not the Spirit. As Minister of the sanctuary it is Christ that gives a lead to the service.
J.S. God said to Moses, "Thou shalt take thee Aaron … and his sons".
J.T. That is the family, the sons of God.
J.L.P. As to our brother's question about the Spirit's place in the service of God, would Ephesians help?
J.T. That is right; the three Persons are involved – through Christ, as the Mediator, and by the Spirit, and the Object is "to the Father".
R.W.S. Would it then be the leadership of the Lord and not of the Spirit?
J.T. The passage reads: "For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father", Ephesians 2: 18.
W.L. "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise continually to God, that is, the fruit of the lips confessing his name", Hebrews 13: 15.
J.T. "By him", that would be the finish in Hebrews, praise in connection with the Old Testament in a typical sense.
F.K.C. What exactly do you have in mind in saying the terminus is in the assembly?
J.T. The assembly is the great thought of God that we come to, and if the Lord comes, He comes to the assembly. We have the thought of His coming in the Song of Songs, skipping upon the mountains, but He has an object in mind, and that object is the assembly.
A.N.W. "To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages", Ephesians 3: 21.
J.T. Showing the place the assembly has; "glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages"; that is how it reads. It is in the assembly.
F.K.C. In Psalm 19: 5, "he rejoiceth as a strong man to run the race".
J.T. It is a figure of speech: "And he is as a bridegroom going forth from his chamber; he rejoiceth as a strong man to run the race", Psalm 19: 5.
A.MacD. Does "bringing many sons to glory", Hebrews 2: 10 link with the thought of the service of God?
J.T. That is a thought that is good to have in our minds, for it implies much in God's mind, not simply to bring us now to the service, but to bring us to glory.
P.L. J.N.D.'s note to "perfect", reads: 'Make perfect' in Hebrews has the force of doing all required to initiate into an office, to make a person fit to be installed in the office. It is sometimes translated 'consecrate'.
J.T. Just so. You do not in any way allow of any derogatory thought in Christ being made perfect. He took that place and God intended Him to take it that He might be our Leader:
J.R.H. As to your reference to the ascending note as seen in the idea of glory, would you link that with John 20, the Lord coming into view as the risen Man?
J.T. Just so. I have often thought of that message through Mary. He forbade her to touch Him. We must not take liberties with divine Persons, we are to know what we are doing.
A.N.W. With which of the divine Persons has the bringing many sons to glory to do?
J.T. It is the Father's work; "It became him", that is God. Hebrews 2: 9 reads,
W.L. I wondered if the thought of bringing many sons to glory would lead us beyond the time scene?
J.T. I think you are right, only there is the thought of time too. God is the Author of time and He uses it. But the great thought with divine Persons is glory: "from glory to glory". He is bringing many sons to glory, not to heaven, but to glory.
G.A.S. The glory being involved, it is necessary to bring in the thought of Christ as Leader, as Saviour.
J.T. He must be brought into this, He is the Leader of the whole matter, but in glory.
A.B.P. Would the glory include the manifestation of sonship, and that the sons have an Object?
J.T. I would think that the manifestation of sonship cannot have too great a place, because God has glory in sons, He calls attention to them.
A.B.P. In Romans 8 in relation to sons, the glory of sonship affects creation.
J.T. So that it says, "And not only that, but even we ourselves, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit",
F.K.C. "But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit". 2 Corinthians 3: 18.
J.T. It brings in the Spirit, and He is called Lord in that passage.
J.T.Jr. "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the coming glory to be revealed to us", Romans 8: 18
J.T. There the glory is the revelation of the sons of God.
J.B. Does the scripture, "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings", Hebrews 2: 10, imply sufferings on God's part?
J.T. No; it is just what is suitable to God in such circumstances. It is a question of God ordering the death of Christ; not that God became Man and died, but that it "became", God, it was suitable to God that it should be so.
F.W. In this great matter of sonship would it help us in our thoughts to see the great place sonship has in regard to creation?
J.T. It is very beautiful what God has. Revelation 4: 11 says.
F.W. There is a present consciousness in our hearts that this is so.
J.T. And the Spirit will aid you in that. There is nothing for God's pleasure in which the Spirit will not aid you.
| 5 – BRETHREN OF CHRIST |
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| DIVINE PERSONS AND OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEM (5) Acts 1: 15-17; John 20: 15-18; Matthew 25: 31-46: Hebrews 2: 11-14 |
J.T. Our subject is the brethren of Christ. It is thought that we should first bring out the significance of the word 'brethren' by itself, and then go on to the brethren of Christ.
Even now we regard each other as brethren, which is right; but then we have to distinguish between that and what we have read as to the Lord's brethren in John 20. They are called "my brethren", in the address to Mary Magdalene – "Go to my brethren".
The passage read from Matthew 25 clearly contemplates, not ourselves, but the Jewish setting, which we are also to bear in mind both in connection with brethren and with the wifely idea to which there is some allusion in the Old Testament so that the thought is not confined to the assembly.
We shall have to speak of that also as we proceed, but now we must see how the Spirit of God groups things.
In the passage in Hebrews He brings together the sons of God and the brethren of Christ of whom He is not ashamed. Then the assembly,
This is the closing reading of this series and it is thought the Lord might help us to be attentive in order to get the gain that is attached to all these scriptures, because they enter into the service of God which is the great thought before God now in our being down here. We are down here with that in view because He wishes His service continued.
A.N.W. Would Acts 1: 14 where it says, "and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren", be nothing more than brethren according to the flesh?
J.T. We did not read that verse. What is said as to Peter is that he stands up in the midst of the brethren. The term he uses is "Brethren", which would cover all the uses of the word.
P.L. The end of 1 Thessalonians is full of the thought, finishing with the word,
J.T. Just so, and the Scriptures are full of it throughout the Acts and elsewhere. God is bringing the idea before the brethren.
P.L. Would the thought here be the idea of the boards of the tabernacle fitted into one another?
J.T. Quite so, and if we regard the gold that covered all we have one tabernacle, and that is what we have in mind.
J.R.H. In this chapter we have the Holy Spirit mentioned four times over. Would the thought of brethren here afford an atmosphere where the Holy Spirit would be free to come and to move?
J.T. It is more clear in the next chapter, but as you say we have the reference here. It says in Acts 1: 16,
R.A. Verse 16 might read, 'Men, brethren', according to the note.
J.T. That is just a term that might be used at any time. The Jews called each other brethren, but 'men' as the note shows is just of common usage. It would mean the persons spoken to are viewed as responsible.
R.W.S. There had been a scattering of the disciples when the Lord was taken by the Jews, but then He assembled with them after His resurrection during forty days. Would the thought of brethren cover the Lord's service to them, so that they were gathered in love?
J.T. He was forty days amongst them and would use familiar terms, terms that were suitable to His position which was then a risen position, not a heavenly one. He had not yet gone to heaven, He was here amongst them and it was to bring out the reality of His resurrection. He ate and drank amongst them.
R.W.S. The Lord's word to them in Matthew 12: 50 suggests delightful terms of love in this basic way,
J.T. Well, that was in the gospels. In Matthew and Luke as well as here in John He brought in the thought of brethren, but in those it was only to bring out the reality of their relation with Him.
A.MacD. Ananias speaking to Saul says, "Saul, brother", Acts 9: 17.
J.T. Yes, it would show that he had regard for him in that light. It was needful for Saul to get that word, to realise that he was already amongst the brethren.
A.B.P. Is it the thought of the public relationship between brethren?
J.T. Quite so. You might say it is the lowest level on which we are; whether we are in assembly on the first day of the week or whether we are together to read the Scriptures or to pray, we are always ready to think of ourselves as brethren.
F.W. I was wondering whether this thought, "in the midst of the brethren", would not regulate us in our attitude towards our brethren?
J.T. I think so. The fact is that we are likely to use the word too often. It might help to more carefully consider its use; but we do use it, and no doubt intend to convey that we do respect them.
R.W.S. Does this term apply to all christians?
J.T. At first it was so applied; clearly it was so here. You could hardly go much wider than what we have actually in Jerusalem at this time, but in 1 Corinthians 15 we have the way in which things were at the beginning, how the Lord appeared to so many.
R.H.S. Do we view the one in Matthew 18 who will not hear the assembly as a brother?
J.T. It is a question of whether he is a weak brother for whom Christ died, a brother as to the family, and if so, to regard him thus. We need to keep to the context in these matters.
J.B. In coming before the authorities in connection with unionism, for instance, do we ask them for exemption as Brethren or as christians?
J.T. It is a question of wisdom as to what terms we might use. We are known in Washington as Brethren Number Four. That is a humbling thing. And sometimes we say Plymouth Brethren, though we do not want to bring that up;
L.K. The "number of names", would show that they are distinguished persons, not distinguished on the earth but distinguished in heaven.
J.T. Just so. But I would not stress the term 'brethren' here too much because even the Jews called each other brethren. As I was saying, it is the first level on which we may broach the subject, but we have not very much time to delay on this for we need to go on to what is higher and greater.
R.W.S. Is John 20 then the highest level?
J.T. That is just it, because of ascension being connected with it. But the group of verses in Hebrews is remarkable because they lead toward the truth of the assembly and will enable us to speak of the value of all these terms: of brethren, sons of God, and the assembly.
Ques. Is Abram's word to Lot, "We are brethren", more like Acts 1, but the thought of Joseph's brethren more like John 20?
J.T. I would say that. They were twelve brethren, twelve sons of Jacob, the administrative number.
Rem. I was thinking of Joseph making himself known to his brethren.
J.T. The allusion typically is to Christ. Joseph is seen there, slowly making himself known to the brethren, even imprisoning some of them because of their conduct; but in due time it says that
Rem. You remember when the difficulty came up between Abram and Lot that Abram says, "We are brethren". He held on to that.
J.T. That would apply very much at the present time. We are brethren and our conduct should be in keeping with it. But then in such a circumstance we do not say we are Christ's brethren, we just say we are brethren. But now we are come to the thought of Christ's brethren.
A.R. "My brethren", in John 20: 17 is in relation to ascension: is that what you said?
J.T. Yes, whereas "my brethren", in Matthew 25: 40 does not go further than resurrection.
A.N.W. It seems as though Mary of Magdala would know all the brethren as the Lord entrusts the message to her.
J.T. Quite so; she knew them all. The latter part of chapter 20 would show that.
F.K.C. Is 'brethren of Christ' a heavenly relationship?
J.T. Well, we have just been speaking about it as to the application of the word to the assembly. This thought in John 20 is not said of the Jewish brethren, nor of those in Matthew 25 or Acts 1, but it is said of them here,
F.W. Did Moses have the right idea when he said, "Ye are brethren, why do ye wrong one another"? Acts 7: 26.
J.T. That would come in under the heading of Acts 1. The use of the word 'brethren' in the early times was just in that sense that they were of the family of Israel.
R.W.S. Does this scripture involve greater spirituality? It says,
J.T. I would think so, and the brethren would regard her too because she is wonderfully distinguished as a sister. Much is said of her before this comes out, and particularly that the Lord had to guard her from touching Him because the time for it had not come.
G.A.S. Does that enable Mary to distinguish the persons the Lord had in mind in saying, "My brethren"?
J.T. I think so. Doubtless she had had ample opportunity to know the brethren, Peter and John and all the others.
J.T.Jr. Do you think the immediate reference to disciples would allude to the fact that they were taught, that being the meaning of the word?
J.T. I think so. The Lord implied that it was a teaching time. He is going to entrust to her this wonderful disclosure; He has a vessel He can use suitably and that vessel is Mary, who calls him "Rabboni".
F.N.W. Does she carry the message as having some sense of being one of the brethren herself?
J.T. Just so; at any rate she would find it out later for
B.W. Does the fact that the term 'brethren' is not used till after the resurrection bring it on to a higher level?
J.T. I would rather you said 'ascension', because the assembly is not simply on the ground of resurrection.
A.N.W. So in resurrection it is, "Touch me not". John 20: 17.
J.T. The Lord is preventing her from touching Him in view of His ascension to the Father, but the message that she received contained not only the word as to the Father to whom He was ascending, but also that He was their Father and their God too.
A.H.P. Do these relationships, "my brethren", and "my Father and your Father", involve another sphere of things for their working out? Is that implied in the ascension?
J.T. I am glad you mentioned the word 'sphere'. It takes us back to the word 'expanse' in the first of Genesis. God was, as it were, making room for Himself.
J.L.P. Would Mary's turning round imply that she is getting a new view of the brethren?
J.T. Turning round would show that she is really interested. It is mentioned in John 20: 14 too,
and then again in John 20: 16,
"Jesus says to her, Mary. She, turning round, says to him in Hebrew, Rabboni, which means Teacher".
J.T.Jr She goes along on the road, you might say, with the message within her.
J.T. The word "Rabboni", shows the state of her mind. She is fit now, she has right thoughts and right feelings and right names; she is fit to be sent. And so the Lord says, "Touch me not", John 20: 17, because she might have gone further, which He did not allow;
L.W.S. Did you suggest that later on, in verse 20, the touching would have been right?
J.T. I would think so. The inside position involves that there is liberty for He allows the others to do the same thing.
F.N.W. You have indicated that we are very slow to understand this thought of the brethren of Christ. Mary seems to get it in one sentence, does she not?
J.T. It has already been said that she must have known them; very likely she did.
A.B. Does John have these spiritual activities in mind throughout the book? In John 1: 50 in speaking to Nathanael the Lord says,
and also in John 3: 13, saying to Nicodemus,
"the Son of man who is in heaven"; and then here,
"I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God", John 20: 17.
J.T. The expanse is what is meant in these suggestions. God has a wide sphere for Himself in which to carry on His operations, and what we are dealing with now is just that thought. John comes in to fill out the expanse.
F.K.C. We know who inhabits this expanse, and we know the persons who will be there whom we can take account of as brethren of Christ.
J.T. Quite so, and so in Matthew 27: 52, when the Lord was crucified, the Spirit of God says,
R.A. Would you say that these brethren arrived at the dignity of the name by which they are called, so that in the upper room the Lord is free to be with them?
J.T. We cannot pass by the suggestion of the upper room without saying something about it.
R.W.S. Would the suggestion in John 20: 26 show that the disciples understood His coming in and standing in the midst? Because it says,
J.T. It was "eight days after", the week had elapsed. It is the indication of the dispensation in which we are, a dispensation of weeks. The first day of the week, therefore, is in mind and that is what we get here.
J.L.P. In our chapter in Acts 1 it was remarked in connection with the use of the term 'brethren' that the Holy Spirit had not yet come; but would its use in John 20 infer that Christ's brethren would be those who have the Spirit?
J.T. Well, it goes on to say, "And having said this, he shewed to them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced therefore, having seen the Lord. Jesus said therefore again to them, Peace be to you: as the Father sent me forth, I also send you. And having said this, he breathed into them, and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit", John 20: 20-22.
F.K.C. In the Lord breathing into them His inwards are in evidence, and would have to do first of all with our ability to remit.
J.T. Quite so, and that is expanded in the second chapter of the Acts. The reference to the inwards is quite a remarkable suggestion when connected with the breathing in Acts 2. The inwards of God are involved, as it were, in the coming down of the Spirit; it is a matter of the powerful breathing of God.
A.R. It says of Adam that God breathed into his nostrils. That would be a very close matter, would it not?
J.T. Quite so. God selected the nostrils in view of man having a mind. We have the mind of Christ, and no doubt that is involved in what the Lord did here to the disciples and the power He gave them to remit sins.
F.N.W. On the responsive side, is it right to think of the Holy Spirit giving us the power to breathe Godward?
J.T. I would not say that. If God gives the Holy Spirit, He gives the power. So Paul says in Acts 19: 2,
A.N.W. Does the remitting and retaining represent assembly action?
J.T. John does not deal with assembly action but with the persons who do the thing, who are qualified, just as Mary was qualified. If things are to be done let us be qualified to do them. No doubt the disciples would be qualified by what the Lord imparted to them.
A.R. Did Paul bring this in at Corinth in regard to the incestuous man? He says in 2 Corinthians 2: 8,
J.T. Just so, "assure him of your love".
F.W. In a day like this when recovery is so manifest, is the thought that as God is forgiving so we should be like Him in order that the recovered one should be free for service?
J.T. This particular chapter implies that the Lord has set us all free in the assembly, and that is the idea; we are free for the assembly, we are not to be bowed down or held in bondage with legal fears as to our sins, because they are authoritatively remitted.
Ques. Would it not be incongruous to remit a brother's sins in assembly and then restrict him afterwards?
J.T. That is right.
A.B.P. The Lord in speaking to the woman in Luke 13: 12-13 says,
J.T. Quite so, she glorified God. Now to proceed to our verses in Hebrews, what is in mind has already been intimated and these verses group together the great things that we are speaking of, the first being many sons brought to glory
A.R. Would not the brethren be masculine, and then the assembly feminine, and then sonship would be masculine again? Is that how the service is to be carried on?
J.T. The actual concrete service is in Hebrews 2: 11 which says,
J.T.Jr. Would you say we must understand the Lord as amongst us in order to enter into the thought of brethren in our relations in the assembly?
J.T. That is the first thing we come to, that He is actually here. We have considered the idea of brethren in Acts 1 where it is simply what we are ordinarily.
J.B. I am not very clear as to how we address the Lord in this position of brethren. I can understand how we do it in the assembly relationship and as sons with the Father, but how do we address the Lord as brethren?
J.T. It is a question of being one of them and of the person who does it being one of them. We are to address Him in that way, only in a priestly sense, in a priestly capacity, so that we know what to say and do.
J.B. According to the order after the breaking of bread it is the brethren of Christ. But how do we address the Lord and what is His relationship to us? Are we speaking of our love for Him or His love for us?
J.T. It is a question of what we are able to do, what power we have and what understanding we have; so that if we speak to Him as brethren of Christ we speak to Him in a priestly sense.
D.MacD. In what way does the Lord sing praises?
J.T. I would say it is through the assembly. It says,
they are to know the Father's name; and then,
"in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises", Hebrews 2: 12;
P.L. Ephesians 3: 21 would link all that on with eternity,
J.T. Very fitting, because in that book it is
J.T.Jr. The thought of the expanse would come into that chapter I suppose,
J.T. It would.
R.W.S. Would it be right to say that the title of relationship which we have with divine Persons is related to just two of the divine Persons?
J.T. Well, the question is whether we can go further and include the Three. But in any case two of the divine Persons are involved, through the Spirit by the priest. I use the word 'priest' for it is the proper word for carrying on the service of God while we are down here.
R.W.S. Should we just rest there then, that it is the Father and the Son?
J.T. But then the power of it all is in the Spirit. The person who speaks is in the Spirit. He speaks in the Spirit or he would not be able to speak at all.
F.K.C. In John 17: 26 we have, "And I have made known to them thy name, and will make it known; that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them".
J.T. That is a further thought. In Hebrews 2 we are where we can speak with brevity of the service of God.
A.B.P. How does the next verse, "And again, I will trust in him", fit in here? Hebrews 2: 13.
J.T. It is just brought in here as an added thought as to the humanity of Christ. He trusted in God but I do not think it is a matter to be spoken of in the service of God on the first day of the week.
P.L. Does that quotation from Psalm 22 bring in the musical side, the feeling and agile side, 'the hind of the morning'?
J.T. Quite so; that is the title of Psalm 22 you mean. Who but the true David, the Lord Jesus Himself, could be the author of that?
A.R. The title to Psalm 22 is feminine. How do you view that?
J.T. When we come to this point, those who are singing form the feminine side in the assembly.
A.N.W. Would you say Mary formed part of the assembly?
J.T. No doubt, as every sister does; but then we have to make room for the feminine side not simply in sisters but as one idea in the assembly; and for the masculine side as being Christ Himself.
J.S. They anointed Aaron and his sons.
J.T. Just so.
F.W. "Behold, I and the children which God has given me", Hebrews 2: 13;
J.T. Yes; but that is only an isolated item because that is connected with His pathway here. Such items are not really involved in the service of God where it is a question of the Lord singing in the midst of the assembly.
J.L.P. Why does the Lord stress the name,
J.T. The name is what He is; what the Father is is involved in His name. J.N.D.'s hymn expresses it:
F.K.C. Is it not remarkable, the thought of a divine Person taking over a creature for this service in the assembly?
J.T. You mean the assembly is a creature?
F.K.C. Yes.
J.T. Quite so, only a very great one, the greatest in the universe and nearest to divine Persons. We must always remember that she is viewed mysteriously. She comes down out of heaven from God.
J.R.H. Is this singing not so much a matter of sonship as of Christ and the assembly?
J.T. Christ and the assembly, exactly; but sonship, of course would be there and gives great importance to it because we are all there. It is a collective idea.
G.A.S. Is this declaration of the Name to the brethren on a different level from the message to Mary? Would it be more intimate?
J.T. Well, the Lord is the speaker here; it might include Mary's message. What we are speaking of here is a quotation from the Psalms brought in by the Spirit through the apostle Paul; and He is in the midst of the assembly Himself, so that we get the import of the assembly from Paul in this passage.
| KEY TO INITIALS | |
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| DIVINE PERSONS AND OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEM Toronto, October, 1948 Ministry by J.Taylor, 72: 202-289 Names are from various sources and believed to be accurate. ? = uncertainty; initial ? = as to name; final ? = as to locality. There are a number of initials for which names are not known. | |
|
Richard Adams, Toronto Harry Baird, Hamilton, Ontario Archie S. Brown, Detroit ? John [A.] Bulloch, Toronto Frank K. Corney, Toronto ? Jack Heggie, Toronto John R. Heggie, Toronto ? James Johnson, Galt Lindsay Kirk [Sr.], Toronto Wm. [T.] Ladyman, Toronto Percy Lyon, London, England ?? Ron Morrow, Toronto Allen MacDonald, New York David MacDonald, New Jersey Walter W. Mooney, Cape May, NJ A. Bufton Parker, New York |
A. H. Parker, Hamilton James K. Pollock, Montreal Joseph L. Pollock, Montreal Archie Robertson, New York Robert H. Smith, Westfield, NJ Thomas [L.] Smith, Detroit ? W. S. Spence, Bournemouth ? John [K.] Steen, Tillsonburg Robert W. Stollery, New Jersey Geoffery A. Suckling, Toronto James Taylor, New York James Taylor Jr., New York A. N. Walker, New York F. Neville Walker, ? New York ? Burford Wicks, Boston ? Fred Wragge, ? |