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Introduction 1. The Father Romans 8: 14-17; John 20: 16-18 2. Children of God (1) John 3: 1-16; 1: 11-13 3. Children of God (2) 1 John 3: 1-12; John 21: 4-14 |
4. Sonship Galatians 3: 21-29; Romans 3: 14-15; 5. Brethren of Christ Acts 1: 15-17; John 20: 15-18; • Key to Initials Previous Next |
| INTRODUCTION |
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| DIVINE PERSONS AND OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEM Toronto, October, 1948 Ministry by J.Taylor, 72: 202-289 |
It should hardly be necessary to say that spiritual intelligence as to Divine Persons and our relationships with Them is essential if we are to serve rightly
The nature of those relationships and their implications are thoroughly examined in the following five readings.
G.A.R.
| 1 – THE FATHER |
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| DIVINE PERSONS AND OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEM (1) Romans 8: 14-17; John 20: 16-18 |
J.T. What is in mind is the names by which divine Persons are known and the relationships with Them in which we are set.
A.R. What you say about the law is very important, for Matthew 5: 18 says,
J.T. Quite so, as if the whole area of Scripture is in mind, what God has said and how it has taken the form of Scripture; written by Moses, of course, but still Scripture.
R.W.S. Does not the word in Matthew 5: 48,
J.T. It is the passage that lends its full character to what we have been saying, and the disciples were to have the idea of the Father and the Father's character as at the end of that chapter; for it is a great legislative chapter and things are to be understood on the principle of legislation.
A.N.W. The Lord saying, "My Father and your Father" in John 20: 17 elevates the matter to the highest level.
J.T. I think that is good. The Lord is saying to Mary – selecting a sister to communicate these things to the brethren, and I think the fact that she is selected would touch the sisters here –
JoshuaP. You spoke of the heavenly legislation in Matthew 5. Is the understanding of that to help us in relation to the Father so that we may not need much of the world's legislation?
J.T. I think so; and we are to learn things from the lips of the Lord's own messenger. So Mary is selected, and the preliminary thought as to it is,
P.L. In Matthew 5: 2 it says: "having opened his mouth, he taught them, saying …". Is that what is immediately brought near?
J.T. He went up to the mountain to do it; in Luke it is from the level of the plain.
F.W. Is not the standard a very high one?
J.T. Just so. It is the earth brought into it, whereas when we come to Ephesians everything is in the heavenlies and therefore we have words suitable to the assembly of God.
L.K. Does the apostle embrace both thoughts in Ephesians 3: 14-15,
J.T. Yes; but the first of Genesis implies not only persons but things; so that the Spirit of God in brooding over the face of the waters was there to do things and to say them, not only as to men, but as to things that God has made.
A.S.B. It says in Matthew 5: 16, "Let your light thus shine before men, so that they may see your upright works, and glorify your Father who is in the heavens".
J.T. That is what the Lord had in mind. So He went up to say things, and they went up to Him. It was to say things from that point; the Lord was referring to the earth because that is what God began with.
A.B.P. You linked the creation with the speaking of God. Is the assembly connected with the idea of speaking also?
J.T. I think so; it is seen in what Moses made; he built the tabernacle and the idea of the tabernacle was a place for speaking.
S.J.H. As to the legislation you speak of in regard to the earth and the name Father, would that imply family feelings, God always having families in mind?
J.T. God did not begin with the name Father. It was Elohim and then Jehovah Elohim, a combination phrase meaning God in relation to men. It is not a question of man just yet, but of God in relation to him.
J.S. In Exodus the Holy Spirit brings in the thought of the tabernacle.
J.T. What Jehovah wanted particularly to do was to say things; and so in Numbers Moses would speak to Him but Jehovah spoke to him; He intervened and spoke to Moses instead of letting Moses speak to Him. So from that time onward it is what the Lord commanded Moses. It is a question of authority.
J.H. Are they beginning at this point in Acts 4: 24?
J.T. It would; however, it is David, not Moses. It is what David would say. God makes a selection as to His ancient servants and educates them, having in mind what was before them and how they should come up to the truth.
A.R. So the Lord in incorporating Moses' remarks intended that we should incorporate them too, did He not? Matthew 5: 19 says,
J.T. It refers to ancient things, for God was before all things.
A.B.P. Do we come into things through speaking, first of all confessing our sins, then confessing Jesus as Lord, and then as we have it in our chapter, crying,
J.T. We get to know how to name things. How did Paul think of writing down, "Abba, Father"? The Lord had used that expression.
A.H.B. Is that why Paul in speaking to the Corinthians says,
J.T. That is right, "one God, the Father … and one Lord, Jesus Christ".
R.W.S. While the very attractive name of Father comes in in Matthew, there is power to enforce things; so it is a rather arduous matter to go up the mountain and come to the Lord, balancing with the attractiveness of fatherhood.
J.T. So we have at the very outset in Matthew 5: 1,
"Ye are the light of the world: a city situated on the top of a mountain cannot be hid. Nor do men light a lamp and put it under the bushel, but upon the lamp-stand, and it shines for all who are in the house.
"Let your light thus shine before men, so that they may see your upright works, and glorify your Father who is in the heavens", Matthew 5: 13-16.
J.T.Jr. Would you connect the expanse in Genesis 1 with these thoughts in Matthew?
J.T. I think the word "expanse" would indicate that it is the breadth of things, so there is plenty of latitude. Then if we are to do with the face of the earth, we are to see what is there; we have vegetation and the like.
J.T.Jr. As to the lights set in the expanse, Christ is here on the mountain and the city is also referred to in the section you read. Is that like the two great lights?
J.T. So "God said, Let there be light. And there was light", Genesis 1: 3.
J.K.P. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God", Romans 8: 14.
J.T. I think so. Some have made much of it that the apostolic epistles do not say anything of the Spirit being spoken to, but rather of the Spirit speaking: but then, the Old Testament indicates that the Spirit is spoken to.
P.L. So in Numbers 21, from which point onwards the leading of the Spirit is evident, the addressing of the Spirit in song is alluded to.
J.T. Very beautiful. It is touching, such a matter being introduced so early. Typically, they sang to the Spirit, but then Moses had to do with it. It is at the word of the lawgiver.
A.R. So as Rebecca has to do with the servant she says,
A.N.W. That word "sing" involves that He had already expressed Himself and now there is an up-springing response to Him. The note gives 'respond' as a synonym.
J.T. That passage in Numbers 21 has to be studied as to what the Spirit was saying, and particularly now that He is saying, "Sing ye unto it". "Spring up, O well"; that is the Spirit Himself typically.
J.T.Jr. In relation to conditions where a brother might be angry with another and need to be reconciled, I suppose we need to name that word too: it is,
J.T. There is a solemn word too in Matthew 5: 22,
P.L. Would this attempt to discredit the brethren interfere with their dignity assemblywise as "two of you"?
J.T. You may be sure the assembly will be discredited if the persons who form it are discredited. So the woman of Samaria said, "Sir" to the Lord, and others do too.
P.L. Would an example of that be the great name of dignity He gives to Peter?
J.T. Quite so, "Thou art Peter", Matthew 16: 18;
A.S.B. Is it not solemn that if such a thing as disrespect of the brethren is allowed by us the service of God is hindered?
J.T. If the brethren are not respected the service of God will be sure to be hindered, for they are the ones that are to serve Him according to the divine order, and we come and sit down together with a view to it.
A.S.B. We should be very sensitive as to our relations with one another so that we should not hinder the service of God.
J.T. As we think of the so-called service of God around us, think of the hideous things that are being done, professedly in the celebration of the Lord's supper. Hence the importance of knowing what to say and how to name things that would lower the level of the Lord's supper.
A.B.P. In regard to creation, "He spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast", Psalm 33: 9.
J.T. Very good, so that they are not movable. There are things that are movable but there are things that are not movable. For instance, in Solomon's reign things were stable, they were set up in Zion – Zion being a fixed position, while formerly the tabernacle was in the wilderness. So we can see that we are transferred in our thoughts from what is movable to what is immovable.
P.L. So the authoritative ministry is suggested in the scripture that
A.N.W. The finish of this address on the mount says,
J.T. So that mount Zion cannot be moved. The Psalms make allowance for that and we learn things from them in that sense. They are carefully divided into five books corresponding with the five books of Moses.
W.W.M. Would you say the thought of the Father in Matthew 5 gives you a great sense of the family and a right attitude toward it? I was struck by the word "Raca", meaning 'contempt', as though we might not have the proper sense of the Father's feelings in regard to the family.
J.T. Just so; we are to be respectful to the brethren.
J.T.Jr. If we respected this important law in this chapter it would keep us from going to the care meeting with things that should be settled before going.
J.T. There is a good deal in that. But things that are supposedly settled are sometimes very questionable; sometimes things brought to the assembly and supposed to be settled need to be done twice over. If things are fixed they are fixed.
A.R. You mean if things are settled in the assembly I should have an assembly judgment about them, not a personal judgment.
J.T. The assembly is for settlement. It has the last word. The care meeting, as we call it, is more modern, although the word 'care' is not modern
A.R. If a brother is forgiven in assembly every one should be clear about that, should he not, and prepared to accept that judgment?
J.T. If he is forgiven, he is forgiven. If God casts his sins behind His back, they should be left there.
A.H.P. Romans 8: 15 says, "Ye have not received a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father".
J.T. You can see that if the Father is spoken to as "Abba, Father", and someone has liberty to do so, that someone has a great place in heaven. The Lord did that and it is transferred to us, and anyone who does that has a great place in heaven and we cannot at all discredit him.
"Mary of Magdala comes bringing word to the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had said these things to her", John 20: 18. Then we are told,
"When therefore it was evening on that day, which was the first day of the week, and the doors shut where the disciples were, through fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and says to them, Peace be to you", John 20: 19.
J.S. Is this the place of divine speaking?
J.T. Exactly, and where the influence of the Father and the Son is prevalent.
A.B.P. Is "Abba, Father" necessarily confined to assembly service? Is it an experience we reach individually and then are possibly more free to use it as together?
J.T. The Lord used it Himself, but it is contemplated as used collectively in the epistle to the Romans; "we cry, Abba, Father". Whether that means urgency is a question, I think it does.
P.L. "We cry", would that be like the one tongue you referred to?
J.T. Just so. The one tongue says, "Come",
A.N.W. It says, "Ye have received a spirit of adoption", Romans 8: 15;
J.T. So it all tends to unity, liberty and enjoyment. It is a poor thing if christianity affords us no enjoyment. That is what one is concerned about, that we might enjoy the things that are so freely given us of God.
G.A.S. Is that cry, "Abba, Father", in relation the earthly setting in Romans 8?
J.T. I would say it is assembly phraseology, only it is in Romans. The apostle Paul is leading up to the assembly for he is going to speak of the assembly presently. You will see how he is leading up to it if you will look at Romans 16: 25-27:
"but which has now been made manifest, and by prophetic scriptures, according to commandment of the eternal God, made known for obedience of faith to all the nations – the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever. Amen".
| 2 – CHILDREN 0F GOD (1) |
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| DIVINE PERSONS AND OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEM (2) John 3: 1-16; 1: 11-13 |
J.T. Our subject at this reading is 'Children of God'. The subject is wide as touching us in so many points. There is a further thought connected with it – the children of Christ – that will come up in another reading. We shall need two readings on the children of God.
F.W. Alluding to what we had this morning as to sons by adoption, according to Paul, would you say this matter of children here implies more the divine nature – born of God?
J.T. "The divine nature", – although a term used only by Peter – really refers to the same thing as this, that you are born anew.
H.B. "But Jesus himself did not trust himself to them, because he knew all men, and that he had not need that any should testify of man, for himself knew what was in man", John 2: 25.
J.T. Quite so. Ordinary birth does not count at all, it is of no value.
P.L. "But there was a man", John 3: 1; is that in contrast?
J.T. The fact is that Nicodemus was the subject of the work of God in the sense of new birth or he could not have spoken as he did. He was a man born anew, although subsequent history shows he did not get on too well; but there is the fact that he was actually born anew, I believe.
A.R. What is the difference between
J.T. Well, we have to distinguish between the 'seeing' and the 'entering into'. The first is just simply that a man is born anew; the second, that he is born of water and of Spirit. Whatever the word "water", may mean – possibly baptism – "of Spirit", is associated with it.
L.K. What is suggested in seeing?
J.T. The word itself indicates what is suggested. It refers back to Numbers, to a man with opened eyes, Balaam. He represents the idea of spiritual eyesight, and John, of course, is fully in keeping with it; it depends on the new birth, the total necessity for new birth. As in the first verse we read, whatever we may be in the world, whatever we have, is of no value; all depends upon being born anew.
W.L. Are these sovereign divine operations, the matter of being born anew and born of water and of Spirit?
J.T. "Born anew", is the sovereign action of the Spirit, especially so. The Lord says to Nicodemus:
H.B. There is peculiar force in "Verily, verily, I say unto thee", John 3: 3 to one in that position religiously.
J.T. That is a phrase common to John; it is used twenty-four times in his gospel. It is simply the idea of verity in the truth, dealing with the truth and only the truth.
A.N.W. The basic matter is in what the Lord says in verse 6:
J.T. You mean it describes what the thing is – the product?
A.N.W. "That which", I thought, suggested fibre.
J.T. The thing regarded as product of the action is called "spirit", and is a neuter thought, not a personal thought. But let us look at this wonderful matter of new birth before us. It is a question of the Lord speaking here in this basic way, and so there is something for God; otherwise there would be nothing.
R.W.S. Would this promote love for the Spirit, our looking back and realising that our first link with divine Persons stands related to the Holy Spirit?
J.T. It is a question of basic relations with the work of God; there is nothing at all apart from new birth, and that transaction is by the Holy Spirit's action.
P.L. Would not Ezekiel 36: 25-27 run parallel with what was said to Nicodemus?
"And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
"And I will put my Spirit within you".
J.T. The word dealing with Nicodemus alludes to that scripture; he was a teacher of Israel who ought to have known the truth.
J.P. Is that what Elihu had before him when he said,
J.T. That is what Elihu had in mind, a man that understood how to wait for his opportunity before he said anything, an excellent example for us! So we might say Elihu had new birth in mind; not that he would call it that, but that truth was involved.
J.T.Jr. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh", John 3: 6
J.T. What is the outcome of man is man. Man as a creation is relatively recent; there were many things before man, and even beings such as angels before him. But what is alluded to here refers to man, and all that came out from him from Adam onwards, is worthless;
J.T.Jr. You are enabled to take such a view as that of the flesh in which you have been born.
J.T. That is what the Spirit of God can do for us, enabling us to name things in this great basic matter of new birth.
J.R.H. It is said of Man: "My Spirit shall not always plead with Man", Genesis 6: 3.
J.T. That refers to the Holy Spirit; He would not always plead; just for one hundred and twenty years in God's long suffering He would have to say to Man.
W.L. Would new birth help us to look behind a man's outward appearance to see something of God?
J.T. What do you see? It is a question the brethren do well to look into: what do you see? It is a question for ourselves. What do we see in what we are talking about, in what we are saying as to this thought of new birth?
R.W.S. Nicodemus did not see much because he was really an unbeliever according to his remarks in John 3: 4: "How can a man be born being old? can he enter a second time into the womb of his mother and be born?".
J.T. I would say from his first remarks that he might appear an unbeliever; yet he is different from the rest and the Lord had some confidence in him and so speaks with him, is found in conversation with him.
R.W.S. The Lord says to him in John 3: 12:
J.T. Well, that is true in a certain sense; but at the same time the Lord is not exactly dealing with Nicodemus but with the general principle of ignorance of something they should have known – a teacher in Israel and ignorant of it.
A.N.W. Is the main issue in the third chapter with the individual, whereas in the first chapter it is with the family?
J.T. That is good. This third chapter is basic. Some use the term 'born again' to mean conversion, but it is not conversion. It is a work God has begun in a man and of such it is said that they can see the kingdom of God. The Lord gives him credit for seeing it.
R.W.S. He does not progress very well, partly because there are certain dark spots; but the work of the Spirit is obviously there in him.
J.T. We might speak about Nathanael in chapter 1: he was a quick learner whereas Nicodemus was a slow learner. But we are thankful that he is a learner at all though we would rather have quick learners.
A.B.P. In Acts 13: 7 we read of "Sergius Paulus, an intelligent man".
J.T. "An intelligent man", fitting in with Acts 13.
J.R.H. With Cornelius there was a work of God, but yet he sent to hear words by which they should be saved.
J.T. Quite so, and he did hear and he was saved, because the Spirit of God came down without reserve. The Spirit of God came down upon Cornelius and his company, showing the work of God that was there to be taken account of.
J.R.H. In the case of Cornelius there had been a very bright work previously, and yet he was not saved.
J.T. But the Spirit came upon them without being solicited – a very fine thought! While Peter was speaking these words the Spirit comes upon them because they are fit vessels for the reception of the Spirit.
J.R.H. The Spirit lays the basis in the soul upon which He can move and take possession in a public way.
J.T. The basic matter is there that God can speak of with a view to the assembly.
J.R.H. The Holy Spirit cannot come upon anyone that is not born anew.
J.T. The Spirit is given on the ground of faith, faith and the knowledge of redemption. It is a redeemed person that receives the Spirit.
A.N.W. It is remarkable in Acts 10 that Cornelius' prayers and alms go up to heaven.
J.T. He had audience in heaven. A gentile, and his prayers ascended before God. God was taking account of this remarkable man in his alms and prayers.
R.W.S. Is that where one value of our meetings lies? Gospel meetings and prayer meetings where the children are – these are favourable places for the wind to blow.
J.T. "The wind blows where it will", John 3: 8.
A.R. The blowing in Acts 2 is said to be as of hard breathing.
J.T. It was the Spirit of God coming down, coming out of heaven. We want to see in these allusions the wonderfulness of what happened at that particular time.
A.R. We are to understand the value of distinguishing. The Spirit sat upon each of them. He was not only in them, but He sat upon them, indisputable evidence of His presence.
J.T. Then again with the Lord Himself, the Spirit came bodily upon Him. The word "bodily", is used. And as you mention, on the occasion in Acts 2 the Spirit came as they were gathered together and sat upon each one of them. Each one was taken hold of by the Spirit.
J.P. What is the difference between new birth and putting on the new man?
J.T. Putting on the new man is much later practically in soul history. It would in fact require redemption and be involved in the work of God. The word 'new' is used again, the thing is fresh and new. W.B. Why does the Lord bring in the thought of the brazen serpent?
J.T. To continue the work involved: "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of man be lifted up, that every one who believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal", John 3: 14.
F.K.C. Does new birth link at all with our children? They are positionally in the same system in which we move in divine things. A love for Christ may be apparent even with our children.
J.T. It is a question of the work of God. God is love and if He is working there is some evidence of love, and we therefore look for it in our children and we are thankful to see it. But where are they to see it, if not in the parents or in the brethren?
A.N.W. What is the bearing of seeing the kingdom of God?
J.T. The features of the kingdom are "righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit", Romans 14: 17.
T.S. Is there any suggestion here of the authority of the Spirit?
J.T. The transaction is His. It is a question of what He is doing, "the wind blows where it will", John 3: 8, an allusion to the Spirit as coming.
P.L. One has been wondering about the Spirit's own sovereign acting. The Spirit has His own proper place in divine things in the economy.
J.T. That is the thing, what the Spirit of God is bringing to our attention as to Himself.
P.L. I wondered if His work from His initial activities down to where "the Spirit and the bride say, Come", Revelation 22: 17, covers the whole period of the Spirit's activities?
J.T. Only that we must remember that it is the Lord Himself who comes for us. The Spirit does not take us to heaven nor come for us.
J.T.Jr. Nicodemus would allude to certain teachers who would acquire all this knowledge and teach it without getting it into their own souls.
J.T. That is what the Lord is remarking on: "Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things!", John 3: 10
A.R. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit", John 3: 6.
J.T. That is the thing, if we are able to do it, able to use the Holy Spirit. It is a question of doing things by Him. He does things of Himself as well. In Romans 8 the Spirit does things, but the blessed Spirit is available to us and we do things by Him.
G.A.S. Would He assist us in effective teaching?
J.T. That is the point the Lord is making here. He is dealing with the teacher of Israel, He is reasoning with him and helping him while he is learning.
S.J.H. The thing in our meetings is to recognise and make room for what is spiritual, not of the flesh and nature, and earthy.
J.T. The Spirit loves to do things by others, persons who are fitted for it. If He can get vessels He loves to use them.
S.J.H. Balaam was not born anew, was he?
J.T. No indeed. He says, "I shall see him, but not now; I shall behold him, but not nigh", Numbers 24: 17.
P.L. Using even the ass.
A.B.P. With young children wishing to break bread, should there not be seen more than just the evidence of new birth? Should there not be seen the evidence of indwelling by the Spirit?
J.T. I would say that. God is pleased to help us with our children;
A.R. "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?", Acts 19:&$160;2.
J.T. Not. 'Are you sealed by Him?' but, 'Have you received Him?' The Holy Spirit is available;
A.R. In chapter 19 he brings what is very weighty – one hundred pounds of myrrh and aloes.
Ques. What is meant by "born of water and of Spirit", John 3: 5?
J.T. "Born of water", may allude to the question of baptism. "Born of Spirit", is the fruit of the action of the Spirit.
J.J. Does quickening underlie this?
J.T. Quickening goes further than being born anew. The Spirit quickens, and the Father quickens and the Lord quickens too, so that it is the full thought that we are dealing with.
J.J. Would this chapter help us who are here, teachers and learners, to see that taking on this truth would add to us spiritually?
J.T. And we are added to the assembly: "the Lord added to the assembly daily those that were to be saved", Acts 2: 41.
Ques. Was the man in John 9 a quick learner? He says, "I see". Basically there was a work in his soul.
J.T. He can be put alongside Nathanael and other persons mentioned in John's gospel such as Mary of Bethany. John selects certain persons to be used throughout his gospel, and at the end of it he says:
A.MacD. Is there not a lesson for us in the service of one like Peter, that as he was speaking the Holy Spirit fell upon all those that heard?
J.T. While Peter was speaking – a remarkable thing! Showing how urgent the Spirit is to take charge of the work of God.
Now we come to John 1: 11: "He came to his own, and his own received him not; but as many as received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God".
A.R. This flows from chapter 3, does it not?
J.T. I think it does, as God Himself brings out just what He is doing in its fulness; that is fulness in the sense that as many as received Christ can have that right.
A.S.B. In chapter 3 it is any one of us, but here it is as many as.
J.T. As many as received Him – none left out.
S.J.H. Nicodemus had the right but did not take it up.
J.T. We must not be too hard on Nicodemus. He is a slow learner, but many of us are slow learners, and there is a great deal to learn and much ground to be covered. Nicodemus moved slowly in the truth but one hundred pounds' weight of spices is something!
P.L. "His own received him not", John 1: 11
J.T. The Jews generally did not receive Him. I believe, as Matthew shows, that there was plenty of space for the Jews at the beginning to take up the truth. As Paul says,
P.L. In the presence of the apostasy of the Jews God reserves the right to act sovereignly in the activities of love.
Ques. "Having loved his own", that is the new generation?
J.T. "Having loved his own who were in the world, loved them to the end", John 13: 1; that is the idea.
R.W.S. The title "children of God", has in mind what we are down here; whereas "sons of God", relates to what is eternal, does it not?
J.T. What does it say in Romans 8: 16?
J.R.H. So that we have not only the right, but the conscious sense of being children.
J.T. Think of the action of the Spirit within yourself bearing witness with your spirit! Not to people outside but with your own spirit, the Spirit making it known that you are one of God's children. That is what we have here; and then, going on to Romans 8: 17,
– heirs of God, think of that word! –
J.T.Jr. The Spirit is accessible to us.
A.N.W. Does "born … of God", involve the three Persons of the Deity?
J.T. The Spirit is contemplated in connection with new birth. It is the Spirit's action. We have the Father, the Son and the Spirit, each working severally; so in the scripture,
P.L. Christ's children – would that be on another line?
J.T. That has to be thought of, too, Christ as distinct from God. But I would say that God there would be the Father.
A.R. Is it the thought of divine nature with children?
J.T. I am afraid of that expression, divine nature: I am afraid of the word 'nature' as applied to God. Children of God are the production of the Father in the sense of God's action, divine in character in that way.
Ques. Is there a difference between children of God here – John 1 – and in Romans 8?
J.T. It is a similar thought. The same persons are involved. The children are derived from God, it is a question of derivation.
P.L. Children by birth and sons by adoption?
J.T. They are derived from God.
Rem. The Spirit itself "bears witness with our spirit", Romans 8: 16.
J.T. I would think so. It is mysterious. The mystery of the thing is called attention to.
J.R.H. We have the thought in Galatians of being heirs through God. Is there advancement in this thought?
J.T. Here it is "heirs of God, and Christ's joint heirs", Romans 8: 17.
P.L. The suffering comes because the children of God display God and are thus hated here.
J.T. They belong to God. They are His. Even the Jews are viewed as suffering because they belong to the woman in Revelation 12.
Rem. The Lord says, "No one can come to me except the Father … draw him", John 6: 44.
J.T. That is the gift of the Father in view of Christ, showing how divine Persons are in relation to One Another, because no one comes to Christ unless the Father draws him. It is the sovereign work of God, and that is what John is dealing with.
| 3 – CHILDREN 0F GOD (2) |
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| DIVINE PERSONS AND OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEM (3) 1 John 3: 1-12; John 21: 4-14 |
J.T. We begin today with children of God in John's epistle:
and added to that is,
"we shall see him as he is", 1 John 3: 2.
P.L. What we shall then be in glory being the answer to what we are here in grace.
J.T. Just so, and we shall see Him and shall be like Him. I suppose that will take place when we are raised, because according to 1 Corinthians 15 He will change us. No doubt all that will take place when the change happens.
A.R. "He that practises righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous", 1 John 3: 7.
J.T. Quite so. It says, "See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God", 1 John 3: 1.
W.W.M. Is the thought of children here a very dignified thought. The very highest we could have as to children?
J.T. Well, the word in verse 7 is an affectionate term – a diminutive to call forth affection.
A.N.W. You referred to the fact that we are not called the Father's children but children of God.
J.T. These things might seem the same but they are not just the same, The first thought John has in his mind is the Father, and the place the children have with Him, the manner of love He has for us.
R.W.S. We should nestle down in this beautiful thought, for there is another family – an awful family – in verse 10, the children of the devil.
L.K. Is it the manner of love that adds dignity to this thought, children of God?
J.T. I would think so, the manner of the love.
J.B. It says in Hebrews 2: 13: "Behold, I and the children which God has given me".
J.T. It is hardly that here. That is a quotation from Isaiah 8 and is a question of what God gave the Lord Jesus; it comes in with our second thought, children of Christ in John 21.
A.R. That is important, for John earlier in his epistle grades them as little children, young men and fathers. There is no such thing in this chapter, is there?
J.T. The term in this passage does not imply the grading thought. The note says, 'not a diminutive'; it is the full thought of christians old or young, and in that sense is on the same level and of the same value as sons.
W.L. Would there be a suggestion in this verse that love is characteristic of the children of God?
J.T. That is what we have, as if it were a quality that we have. The Lord said,
R.W.S. This thought of children in 1 John 3 does not stand in relation to need and care down here, does it?
J.T. I think it is more the dignity that attaches to that order. If we were to go over the ground of creation we should begin with angels who are called sons.
A.MacD. Why does John in writing here use the expression "beloved", in speaking to the saints?
J.T. The word is very much used by him. Paul uses it too, but not so frequently as John.
G.A.S. Does it help to see that this matter is introduced here not exactly as basic, but as something that can be taken account of?
J.T. Just so, it can be seen. "Behold", is a word to notice, but the world does not know us, as it says in this same verse,
W.S.S. Do we get that love referred to in chapter 4 of this epistle? It says,
J.T. Quite so. That is really on the level of John 3: 16 so often spoken of in the gospel. God so loved that He gave.
W.S.S. 1 John 4: 9 says, "God has sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him".
J.T. That is almost the same thought only that in John 3: 16 it is eternal life. So the Lord in John 17: 3 says,
F.N.W. I think you remarked earlier that this thought of children is peculiar to our family; and is not eternal life a term that is peculiarly connected with the present dispensation?
J.T. I think it is; only the world to come, the millennial world, will have eternal life too in its own setting:
F.K.C. Is this thought of children of God to so affect us that, as has been said, we should nestle down in it and be in corresponding liberty with one another? Is not the dissemination of this love needed among us?
J.T. That is just the thing that one has been exercised about in these readings, that the brethren might be living, be in life. That would be the solution of all the difficulties and the contrary things that exist amongst us.
A.S.B. That is why in John 14: 19, 21 the Lord anticipates and says,
J.T. That is the chapter in which we are told of the Spirit being given.
J.R.H. Yesterday you were drawing attention in John 1 to the right we have to take the place of children of God in our relation to Christ, as having received Him and having believed on His name; and then in Romans 8 the conscious joy of the relationship in the Spirit. Is this something still greater, this contemplation of the Father's love?
J.T. We have to consider the difference between John and Paul because each has his own distinction; yet whilst they are separate and distinct they compare with each other. Of course now we are reading John, but you refer to Paul. Possibly you will enlarge on what is in your mind.
J.R.H. I was thinking of the matter of title in John 1, of having the right to take that place of children of God, being in happy relations with Christ. In Romans it is being in the conscious joy of it, the Spirit witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God.
J.T. I think it is. What you have called attention to is important. In chapter 4 it does not lay down the great thought of eternal life, that is to say, it is not stressed here; but I think we ought to keep it in mind because it was a turning point in the testimony at one time.
Ques. Is that seen in 1 John 5: 11? "And this is the witness, that God has given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life: he that has not the Son of God has not life".
J.T. The witness was that God had given to them eternal life; just so, that is a good point to bring up. But it is all finalised in the end of this epistle.
G.A.S. Is that a feature of the children of God, that they know things, that they know they have life and they know God? Is that an underlying feature in John's epistle?
J.T. I think that is good, as it says in 1 John 5: 13,
A.R. Do we not also know it if we love our brethren? As it says in 1 John 3: 14,
J.T. The consciousness of the thing lies in the fact that you love, so one challenges oneself as to whether he loves the brethren. The "because we love", is just that.
P.L. Have you not connected this thought with our taking spiritual soundings in that way?
J.T. Very good. Tell us about the soundings even if you heard it from me.
P.L. Well, a sailor tests where he is by his soundings.
J.T. The shipmaster with whom Paul sailed took soundings as he came to Malta and John's epistle is very like that. We take soundings, if we continue to use the figure; we not only go by the stars, but we sound to find out how deep the water is or how shallow, and that is what this epistle is like.
W.L. The matter of contrast comes in here. The world knows us not, as it knew Him not; and then the contrast too with children of the devil. As we have said, we might take our soundings.
J.T. Very good. The suggestion would really help us all as to these epistles. So that even if we do not have Scripture for a thing we can go by our own selves, that is by the depth of water we draw, as to where we are spiritually, the depth of the work of God in us.
F.W. Do you think that in John 6 the Lord was seeking to exercise them to take soundings when He brought the matter of life before them and many turned away? Then He spoke to the twelve and said,
"Thou hast words of life eternal", John 6: 68.
J.T. That is a very good passage and will help us. Peter needed it at the time. John 6 is a very long chapter but it had come to an end there, and there were certain actually leaving the Lord. They went away back from following Him, and so He challenges the disciples.
"Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast words", – notice that, "words of life eternal; and we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God", John 6: 68-69.
J.R.H. Does the term John uses so often, "Hereby we have known", imply spiritual soundings?
J.T. Look into yourself – let us see to ourselves, brethren. We have the Holy Spirit and we ought to be able to tell.
Children of God is a term to cover relationship, and that is the point we are on, the relationship of ourselves with divine Persons and with one another.
P.L. Have we this thought of soundings in Paul's word in 2 Corinthians 13: 5?
J.T. That scripture covers what we are saying; one was reminded of it some months back in Australia, as being the scripture that was needed to bring out the actual condition of the brethren at a certain place.
P.L. Mr. Darby points out in the note that it is not, 'yourselves know', but 'know yourselves'.
R.W.S. The matter is so real in 1 John 3: 9:
J.T. I am glad you bring that point up. In the section you read we have the idea of "begotten of God", and the seed is a question of what is there of God. It is an abstract thought, that the man cannot sin. Let us just think of that,
J.T.Jr. Would you say the Spirit of God would keep us on that level, as children of God?
J.T. Well, if we are to be in John's writings, to be in liberty so to speak, we are to be on that level.p>
J.T.Jr. Do you think Rebecca would answer to this in Genesis 24? There was no idea in herself of rejecting what the servant was proposing. She really sets out the idea of this side, that she is sinless.
J.T. I think that is very good, that we should look into the matter of Rebecca, because she is a great figure at the present time; and as we examine her case there is nothing at all to say against her. She is in every way approved as typically the spouse of Christ. There is not a thing that can be brought against her.
J.S. She is in every way suited to the man.
J.T. Suited, just so; it is a supreme case, for she must be such. In the idea of Abraham she must be this. Hence the pains he takes in charging the chief servant of his house, leaving with him the selection of the camels and what was needed; leaving it all with the man who is looked at as a type of the Holy Spirit. And so all is perfect in that type.
J.K.P. Does the thought of manifestation link on with what you were saying as to verse 9, of the work of God in the abstract and viewed from the divine side?
J.T. 1 John 3: 10 says, "In this are manifest the children of God and the children of the devil. Whoever does not practise righteousness is not of God, and he who does not love his brother. For this is the message which ye have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another: not as Cain was of the wicked one, and slew his brother; and on account of what slew he him? because his works were wicked, and those of his brother righteous".
J.T.Jr. According to the gospels the passover cup is brought out as referring to something amongst ourselves, that is, prior to the Supper, and would make way for it. So there is love amongst us at the beginning. I am referring to Luke 22: 17 where the Lord says,
J.T. Just so; it was Jewish, but 1 Corinthians 5: 7 would say,
A.R. So the first thing we have in view as we come together is to meet the brethren. Is not that important, how we love one another?
J.T. That is the first thing I would say, and the Lord would say. Are you satisfied with them? If you are I will be with you.
F.K.C. Is it laid on each one of us to become lovable in that sense?
J.T. I think that is right. You would not like to go to heaven if you felt you were not lovable.
J.L.P. This matter of love is brought down to a very testing basis. It seems to be a matter between us as individuals, involving more than what has been said as to love for the brethren in general.
J.T. I would direct you to Matthew 5. If you go to the altar, which in our language would mean we go to the assembly, you go with a gift. But when you reach there you remember your brother has something against you and the Lord's word in Matthew 5: 24 is,
A.S.B. Love flows and the service of God goes on very happily.
J.T. Very good. How glorious the situation is, how glorious the atmosphere is, how glorious the sense you have of the sphere of love!
J.L.P. As to Cain and Abel being brought in here, would it be right to regard them as of different origins? Eve said, when Cain was born, "I have acquired a man with Jehovah", Genesis 4: 1; but Abel comes in whose name means 'breath'. Would you say there is the type there of the two origins of men?
J.T. I would say the crisis had been reached in Adam and Eve themselves, but now it is reached in the family and won in Abel. He is a righteous man; that is stated here. We have to reckon with the solution of things and it will be in the evidence of righteousness.
I think we should turn now to John 21. The point there is to bring out – not only children of God of which we have been speaking and could say much more – but children of Christ; as it says,
J.S. The note says it is a term of affection. Has the Lord taken over here to provide for them?
J.T. Well, He says, "Children, have ye anything to eat? They answered him, No. And he said to them, Cast the net at the right side of the ship and ye will find", John 21: 5-6.
"Simon Peter therefore, having heard that it was the Lord, girded his overcoat on him (for he was naked), and cast himself into the sea; and the other disciples came in the small boat, for they were not far from the land, but somewhere about two hundred cubits, dragging the net of fishes.
"When therefore they went out on the land, they see a fire of coals there, and fish laid on it, and bread", John 21: 6-9.
A.R. So the Lord is exemplifying what is in John 20: 23,
J.T. Quite so. It is the grace side in John 20 and John 21. Chapter 21 is really an appendix, but I believe it is largely to show how gracious the Lord can be with independency.
F.W. Is that not a good example of how love works?
J.T. Yes, how love works with persons who are not just right in their manner and ways, and how it breaks down the independency in grace.
W.W.M. Does it show that instead of making demands we are able to have a supply?
J.T. Quite so. The Lord has a supply and that is the comfort we have. If there are wrong things, and, alas, there are many wrong things among the brethren just now, the thought is grace; and the grace is with God, with Christ, and with the Spirit, so that we may know how to behave in a crisis.
F.K.C. You said once that the Corinthians were defective in visions and revelations of the Lord; there were so many painful exercises among them. The solution really lay in persons who had to do with the Lord in this kind of way.
J.T. Just so; as it says here,
J.R.H. Does this show how one who had given a wrong lead is affected by the Lord's grace?
J.T. I will read it: "That disciple therefore whom Jesus loved says to Peter, It is the Lord. Simon Peter therefore, having heard that it was the Lord, girded his overcoat on him … and cast himself into the sea", John 21: 7.
J.R.H. It is quite evident that Peter had given a wrong lead to the others, but he must have been greatly affected by John's word as to the Lord, and affected by the grace that had been shown.
J.T. It is the melting pot, so to speak. They were hard in their ways and independent, but they came into the melting pot of love. That is the idea.
F.N.W. "There is nothing hid from the heat thereof", Psalm 19: 6.
Ques. Would you say the Lord's manifestations are not confined to the morning meeting? He may be free to come at any time?
J.T. Quite so; who knows that He is not here now? I think He is, and would touch us on the principle of grace, the softening, melting influence of grace. That is what it is.
G.A.S. Would that expression in John 21: 12, "knowing that it was the Lord", – as the note says, 'Conscious knowledge' – be arrived at by the way the Lord ministered to them?
J.T. John says, "It is the Lord", John 21: 7,
the final time.
W.L. Would you say the Lord would have a special word for one like Peter who had led them astray? In John's epistle it says,
J.T. I would not be so hard on Peter, though. "Let no man lead you astray", is a severe thought,
W.L. So His word to such a one is, "Lovest thou me?", John 21: 16
J.T.Jr. Simon Peter is still at his work in John 21: 11:
J.T. Yes, he could do it, though he has one hundred and fifty-three great fishes. There is something to think of in that!
P.L. You have them in John 4 and 9 and 12 anticipatively, have you not?
J.L.P. You have these same feelings with the apostle Paul in writing to Philemon. He speaks of "my child", Philemon 10. He sends him back using that mighty lever of love,
Rem. In John 13: 33 the Lord says, "Children, yet a little while I am with you".
J.T. That is another evidence of this question the children. Chapter 13 is really more a love chapter,