Ministry by J. Taylor
– Part 6
The Ministry of Elisha in its
Practical Value

S.McC. Does the numeral twelve mentioned in the passage amplify the thoughts of unity and love that you are referring to?

J.T. A very good number: God selected it Himself because evidently it suits Him to effect certain things through it. Yet God may take away one of us, as the apostles had one taken away from them: and yet they continued in the power of the anointing.

S.McC. So that the number twelve is the most divisible of all numbers, and love enters into it in a particular way

J.T. Another number of equal importance is the number seven. It is a spiritual number, and carries spiritual thoughts.

• We have been around the circuit recently with these special meetings: we began at Detroit and we were recently at Chicago, and now we are here in Toronto: presently we expect to be in Council Bluffs.

• As we move from place to place God is carrying on in the ministry with these numbers: He has taken up what means He will to express His thoughts. Divine Persons have chosen the number three for Themselves, and it is important to notice that. In Matthew 28: 19 we have
  • "the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

• They are all equal: we know that, but at the same time They have taken up places in the economy that They have ordained, which involves that two have taken relatively lower positions. Each has taken a place by Himself. It is wonderful that divine Persons should take this attitude!

S.McC. Would you say that in the economy these great thoughts of unity and love are set out in divine Persons?

J.T. Just so, the Godhead is involved: but it is remarkable that there are three divine Persons. Of course we speak of Them with great reverence, as we ought to. There are three of Them, They have made this choice Themselves, this arrangement Themselves, because clearly divine Persons are equal. So They have come into time, and we see how Their operations in time are on the principle of these numbers.

C.H.H. Would the apostle Paul in Acts 26 have in mind this calculating in love when he says in verse 7,

• "to which our whole twelve tribes serving incessantly day and night hope to arrive"?

• Was that the calculation of love?

J.T. Just so, the whole twelve tribes: that is good. The word 'whole' means they were all united. So far as we know the apostles were never separated, excepting Judas, a matter which was ordained: the defection of Judas was foretold. But at the same time that defection was perfectly mended.

• The idea of mending is a great one in Scripture: if we are not mended, then we had better see to it that we become so: because there is a way of mending things, and they may become better than they were before in wholeness.

R.W.S. It says the Lord "appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve", not to the eleven, as if the matter were mended.

J.T. You should say a little more about it.

R.W.S. I thought the mending was actually after He appeared to the apostles, that in the scripture quoted Matthias had not yet been selected: yet it does not say it was to the eleven He appeared, but to the twelve, as if He regarded them as complete. Subsequently they cast lots, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven.

F.K.C. Why is it said that Elisha was with the twelfth yoke of oxen?

J.T. I think he was there in heart. The place a man takes is very often God's way of showing what a man is. Here Elisha shows that he is lowly in heart: he did not put himself in the front: he did not choose a place to make himself great.

• He was with the twelfth yoke, so that there were eleven before him: but I would say he was morally the greatest because he was with the twelfth. He was with the divine number with which God was operating, and he is ready to be in that.

• Elijah helps him to get into it. Elijah had been in it but Elijah was displaced or replaced by Elisha, and Elisha has the same lowly spirit, qualifying him to take the place of Elijah. It is lowliness that counts,
  • "meek and lowly in heart", the Lord says.

W.L. Would you say it called for discernment on the part of Elijah to let the whole eleven go by and then pick the twelfth?

J.T. But we cannot say he is letting them go by, because there was perfect arrangement: things were not left open, there is always arrangement in the ways of God. No doubt they are all needed and put in their places. They are actually working, ploughing,

• "and he with the twelfth".

J.W.F. Would you say that very often circumstances come up to break in upon God's thought, that is to break in on the number twelve, but still God makes it up? That is, Judas' failure broke in on the twelve apostles and Matthias had to be brought in: and the two sons of Joseph had to be brought in to make up the twelve in Israel's number. Still God intervenes and carries the matter through, does He not?

J.T. He does, so that the whole divine thought is carried through in spite of human weakness: God Himself does it.

A.R. What started at Pentecost was perfect, was it not? I was wondering if that is what you had in mind in carrying forward the idea of the assembly in our day, so that it is not a remnant at all, but we should keep in mind what is perfect.

J.T. The assembly is held as complete. The word 'assembly' is used at the beginning of Acts. In Revelation the Lord writes to the seven assemblies: He selects them and He writes a letter to each of them, and then there is in addition what the Spirit says to them.

• But what the Spirit says goes right down through the dispensation: and His speaking is going on today.

• I would hope that this meeting today in Toronto is part of it, part of what the Spirit is saying to the assemblies, not what the Lord is writing to them but what the Spirit is saying to them, to the assemblies.

A.R. So do you think the Lord had in mind what is perfect when He said to Philadelphia,

• "I … will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world"?

J.T. Just so, it is the assembly: I mean each one of the assemblies. Although there are seven of them, each one in itself represents the whole, so that the divine ways are in that sense continued: they are linked together and everything is in perfect order.

A.H. Do you suggest that this ability to plough with twelve yoke of oxen applies peculiarly to the local position?

J.T. I suppose it would: the idea would be there, and Elisha was with the twelfth: that is to say the lowly man was there with the twelfth, where he was needed.

A.H. Have you any thought why it is ploughing and not reaping?

J.T. Well, it is the beginning of things. Ploughing is the beginning: in order to have a crop you must plough.

A.H. Does it suggest going deep in exercise?

J.T. Just so.

W.W.M. Would you say he is commended for being with the twelfth? In Matthew 20 when the Lord started to pay off the labourers, those that came first thought they should have got more than the twelfth, as you might say: but the twelve are all equal.

J.T. Just so: there is perfect unity here: they are working together. Elisha is brought in as following on Elijah and he is fit for the place. So it goes on to say,

• "And Elijah went over to him, and cast his mantle on him. And he left the oxen"

  – that is to say, that was past history –

• be left the oxen, and ran after Elijah, and said, Let me, I pray thee, kiss my father and my mother, and I will follow thee".

• Now that is the next thing we have to consider, this matter of kissing the father and the mother: that is, with Elisha the claims of nature are the central matter: they are being fully allowed. We have to see if that is as it should be: that is to say he is putting the testimony last, so that he has to be adjusted.

• We have already seen that it will not do to make the oxen first, they must be left for the sake of the testimony because Elijah has blessed him in view of the testimony, and he must follow Elijah.

• It is what is of God we must follow. We cannot think of our business or whatever it may be, that has to be left for the sake of the testimony if we are to qualify.

S.McC. What you are saying now as to what is natural is important. At Chicago you were drawing our attention to the woman in chapter 17 as operating on the lines of nature, but the man of God takes the child from her bosom. We have to learn to leave that side of things.

J.T. Very good, the same thing would be here: Elisha says, "let me … kiss my father and my mother", that is, he makes a provision, whereas God does not admit of any provision.

• God is absolute in His demands, He is absolute, and the absoluteness is love: love is behind all the absoluteness in God.

A.H. Does the blessing of Levi in Deuteronomy 33 bear on this at all? It says in verses 8 and 9,

• "And of Levi he said, thy Thummim and thy Urim are for thy godly one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah: who said to his father and to his mother, I see him not, and he acknowledged not his brethren, and knew not his own children".

J.T. Very good, that is in exact correspondence. The ploughing here just represents ordinary business matters: but the idea of manhood is in Elisha: he is the one that serves, and it says that Elijah cast his mantle on him. He did not cast his mantle on any of the oxen, but just on him.

• Then Elisha raises the question about his father and his mother, and he is rebuked about it: so that we have to learn to disallow nature and oxen, that is business, and all that goes with it for the sake of the testimony of God.

A.R. It says of James and John in Mark that He called them and they left everything. That apparently marked the apostles at the beginning, that they straightway left everything.

J.T. That shows they were ready for it.

A.N.W. Are the terms of our service intended to be very simple? That is, he arose and went after Elijah and ministered to him.

J.T. That is the next thing. He really left his father and mother, but he was ordered to do that: before he ministers to Elijah he left his father and mother. The Lord did that and we have to leave the natural – that is a principle with God. He will look after them.

• The passage in 2 Timothy 2: 4-6 emphasises the same truth as to the things that may hinder.

A.R. It does not say you are to leave your wife.

J.T. No, you cannot do that: but, you can leave your father and mother and you can leave the oxen and your business: but you cannot leave your wife, or the brethren either.

• I do not know whether the brethren go with that because we may have to challenge these things: we are dealing with the facts of Scripture and we must be accurate.

E.A.L. "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife", Genesis 2: 24.

S.McC. One of the most baneful things in the testimony is the power and influence of what is natural in obstructing our judgment and hindering us.

S.McC. He certainly is. I think what you have said as to the demands of God being absolute would help all of us to realise that the testimony must come first.

A.R. A young brother here recently lost his job because of the union.

J.T. That enters into what we are speaking about, and of course it calls out the sympathies of the brethren.

• This thing has been current amongst us for at least fifty years, this matter of unionism: and the brethren have been set against it and have shown their faithfulness to the truth in many of our cities.

• On the other hand, alas! certain have not been faithful: they have been concerned just to hold their jobs and have lost their place amongst the brethren, their real place amongst the brethren.

E.A.L. You once said regarding this matter of trade unionism, if I recall rightly, that in Revelation, trade unionism is shown up as definitely bearing the mark of the beast: and that if any one would justify his stay in the union after that was pointed out to him, it would point to the fact that he probably did not have the Spirit.

J.T. I would say that: it is very possible that any person who would stay in a trade union and disregard the truth has not the Spirit.

J.M. In the union matter now current in New York, and the question of having fellowship in relation to employing a lawyer, some brethren have difficulty as to putting it down as assembly giving. Would you say a word as to that?

J.T. That situation is the same as if you do not know the way from here to Detroit, and you ask a man to show you, and he does: that is the way I would say it applies in New York. These brethren have been discharged because of unionism and they have just employed a man who can tell them what to do. That is all.

J.M. It seems quite clear to me, but there is a question in some of the brethren's minds.

J.T. There is a good deal of legal feeling in these matters. We have just employed a man to tell us what to do, that is all: we ask him and pay him.

• The brethren should not question that because those discharged are doing what they can in regard to the testimony, and we want to be right in the method of approach to the government. I do not see anything in the matter at all.

S.McC. What was in our brother's mind was as to charging the assembly, and the assembly's place in having fellowship with the expenses. But cannot the assembly be charged in regard to any issue that involves the truth? The assembly is the pillar and base of the truth.

J.T. Quite so. Why should not the assembly be charged in such a case? We should be free to pay and thankful to do so.

F.W. The question raised is in regard to assembly giving in support of this lawyer, and the legal proceedings.

J.T. But the thing has to be done you see: it refers to the saints, it refers to the testing they are going through. Why should not the assembly do it? It is their matter to do it, our privilege to do it.

• We are prone to be very legal in these matters. The question is, Are we instructed as to how to act? And if any one can instruct us, let him do it.

E.A.L. It should be quite clear that the spirit of trade unionism and of communism and all that sort of thing is apostate in character.

J.T. Quite so: it is the growing feature of apostasy of modern times.

E.A.L. I am afraid a great many of the brethren do not see that situation, that it is entirely apostate: the social trend is entirely apostate in character.

J.T. That is true. But let us proceed with our scripture. It says in verse 20,

• "And he said to him, Go back again: for what have I done to thee?"

• What Elijah had done was to cast his mantle upon him. It goes on,
  • "And he returned back from him, and took the yoke of oxen, and killed them"

• – notice that, he killed the yoke of oxen: they are his property and he is quite right to use that property for a good purpose –
  • "he … killed them, and boiled their flesh with the implements of the oxen, and gave to the people, and they ate. And he arose and went after Elijah, and ministered to him".

• Now all is clear: and it ought to be instructive to every one of us as to what we should do in similar tests. Elisha is corrected: instead of going back to his father and mother, it says he turned. Elijah said,
  • "Go back again":

• he is challenging the spiritual discernment of Elisha and we see that Elisha came to the right viewpoint. The whole position is now clear, the testimony of God is clear, and the work of God is going on properly. Elisha is serving Elijah: instead of going back and kissing his father and mother, he is serving Elijah.

• I think it is wonderful to notice all these things. He is serving Elijah and the oxen and the ploughing instruments are just material that can be left. They do not belong to the testimony at all: they can be left.

• The point is Elijah and Elisha: Elisha is following Elijah and ministering to him.

F.K.C. What is involved in ministering to Elijah?

J.T. Well, ministering is serving the Lord: if Elijah needs anything in a material sense Elisha would give it to him, if he has it to give.

F.K.C. Do you think that Luke ministered in that way, as being called into the service at Troas? The apostle speaks of him as

• "Luke, the beloved physician", Colossians 4: 14.

• He seems to be always near to Paul and I wondered whether he ministered on that line? I was thinking of the need of those who minister many a time, the need for support and encouragement.

J.T. Whatever it be, if they need anything, give it to them. That is what I think. That is to say Elisha would do anything that Elijah might need. He poured water on the hands of Elijah, he did that to refresh him: Elijah would be refreshed by that.

But now we might come to our second scripture beginning with verse 9 of 2 Kings 2,

• "And it came to pass when they had gone over, that Elijah said to Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I am taken away from thee".

• Notice that, dear brethren, Elijah is going to be taken up and he knows it: and so are we all going to be taken up, and we know it, or at least we should know it. Elisha's answer is to ask for a double portion of Elijah's spirit, but he says to him,
  • "Thou hast asked a hard thing".

• He is asking a hard thing from Elijah in wanting to get a double portion of his spirit, but it was a good thing and a right thing: he is now doing what is right. So Elijah says,
  • "If thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so to thee: but if not, it shall not be so".

• I think what is for the brethren in all this is to enquire whether we see things, whether we see what is current in a spiritual way. Many stay at home and have no interest in what is happening: they do not see the things that are happening. The word to Elisha is,
  • "If thou see me … it shall be so".

• So it is that if we are not present when things are happening we are going to lose. We might as well accept it that we are going to lose.

B.P. As Thomas did in John 20: he missed the first appearing of the Lord, but he got the second appearing.

J.T. Quite so, I hope all hear that. So Elisha says,

• "I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me":

• that is a double portion of the prophet's spirit. That is to say, we have the Spirit, and we might say we have a firstborn's portion: the assembly has the Spirit of God in that special way. Each of us in the assembly has the Spirit in a full way, whereas those in a coming day will not have the Spirit as we have Him.

• We have to understand that the Spirit will not be so freely given in their day as in our day: we are in the day of the free gift of the Holy Spirit. John's gospel is full of it, that the Spirit is given freely to us now: John 7 tells us that.

• The question now is whether we have arrived at it, and whether we are present at the meetings so that we can see what is happening. So Elijah says,
  • "Thou hast asked a hard thing".

• Then it says they talked, notice that: the two prophets talked together: and then behold, Elijah is gone and Elisha is here! But he saw Elijah go, and he cried,
  • "My father, my father!"

• and then he takes up Elijah's mantle. He takes hold of his own garments and rends them: his whole attitude is changed, according to verses 13 and 14 he is now in entire accord with Elijah.

• He has got Elijah's garment and he has the same power as Elijah. That is what we have: the whole power of God is in the assembly, and we want to be in it and of it, not to be left out of it.

A.H. Is this an advance on getting free from business and natural links? He is now prepared to dispense with his own garment.

J.T. That is the suggestion, I am sure: we have to let everything go for the sake of the testimony.

S.McC. We cannot over-emphasise the fact that the power is here. In the early days among us some brother was saying that everything is at the right hand of God: but it was stressed that the Spirit of God is here.

J.T. That is good: there is not only power at the right hand of God, it is down here too. So that before the Lord Jesus went up into heaven He said,

• "If I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you", John 16: 7:

• but He did go up, and the Spirit came to us. The Lord said the Father would send Him to us and the point we now have to get is that the Spirit is here. Christ is at the right hand of God, but the Spirit is here, sent by Christ, and we want to use the Spirit, to make use of Him, so that there is evidence of God's holy will being done.

• That is what Elisha wanted, and Elijah said, You will get it if you see me taken up. If we attend the meetings and are with the brethren, things will be ready for us, available for us. But if we are absent – and that is our own business – it is pretty certain we shall not get things.

Ques. You were referring a moment ago to the power that marked Elisha. Would there be anything, do you think, in the moral journey that preceded Elijah's rapture, the journey from Gilgal to Bethel, and then to Jericho and on to the Jordan, as laying the basis in his soul for the Spirit to be free to work?

J.T. I thoroughly go with that.

A.B. He says here, "My father, my father!" a very positive statement of relationship, of the spiritual link, not the natural.

J.T. Quite so, a beautiful word denoting fatherly, family relations: a beautiful illustration of family relations. Is that on your mind?

A.B. Yes, indeed. And, going back to the union matter again, I have been impressed with what you have been saying, because I can see the tendency with many of us is to connive with the union in regard to a way out. But I feel impressed by what has been said in regard to the union being part of the apostasy, and therefore we should have no dealings with them whatever. If we are employees our relationship lies with the employer.

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. You stressed in your opening remarks the cumulative aspect of the ministry in what is said and done. I was thinking of the importance of the doing as well as the saying in Elisha's history.

J.T. Quite so: and in the next incident (verses 15-18) we see that Elisha missed the point. He did well up to this moment but he missed the point in accepting what these fifty men said.

• He is swayed by them but what they said was not right: he knew it was not right, but he did what they said. He was wrong in that.

• These are the points in which we have to learn: we are not to give way even if the brethren are all saying certain things that may be wrong. It is a question of being right. There is one thing we have to follow: that is righteousness. That is the one great thing we are to follow.

• Giving way to the brethren because there are fifty of them is not right: we want to be sure that what the fifty are doing is quite right. It may be wrong. Elisha knew it was wrong: he said afterward,
  • "Did I not say to you, Go not?"

• But then he should not have allowed them to go. The whole thing is to stand by the truth, and not to give way even though fifty persons are saying something different.

A.R. May I ask a question as to the scripture referred to this morning in relation to the healing of the waters, 2 Kings 2: 20-22?

J.T. You have in mind I suppose the idea of the new cruse,

• "Bring me a new cruse, and put salt in it".

• I suppose the idea is a certain freshness with us: we are not wearied or occupied with mere historic things, matters that are of little importance to the christian, but we are new and fresh. It is as if we come down from heaven.

• We belong to heaven, as it says in Ephesians, we are raised up together, and made to
  • "sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus".

• So we regard each other in this light, as being in a sense new. Therefore we have the new man, a term which is often commented on but is not noticed enough by us:
  • "the new man … created in truthful righteousness and holiness".

S.McC. The element of grace as we are taking account of it in Elisha brings into operation what there is among the saints: it not only gives the solution, but brings into operation and activity whatever there may be among the saints. So Elisha says,

• "Bring me a new cruse".

• I thought that in contrast to all that is around us, where much in the clerical system is built up on one man, in the assembly everything is made of what is there, what there is among the saints.

J.T. And each one has a consciousness that he is of some importance in the mind of heaven: that is to be taken account of, so that there is a dignity and greatness amongst us in that sense.

• Although of course we are not to think this of ourselves in any natural way, but to think of what we are as raised up together to sit down together in the heavenlies.

• The gospel of John tells us about the new birth – that we are born anew – which is the beginning of things: but there is much more to add to that.

• We are to be raised up together and to be made to sit down together in the heavenlies: so that, as it were, we come down to earth again to do our duty here and to serve God here according to His will, according to the authority and dignity that He has put upon us.

• We are not to be occupied unduly with ourselves, but still we have a dignity in the fact that we are born again and the Spirit of God indwells us. Therefore we are brought into the assembly, the greatest family in the whole universe: we are brought into that and have the power to enter heaven in a spiritual sense, and then to come down again: and then finally to go up again.

• We have that in Scripture, the idea of going up again, so that we go up finally. But we are down here now, and left down here to represent the heavenly-mindedness that belongs to the assembly.

A.B. According to Ephesians 2: 6-7, this elevation is in view of the present, that is to say it is going on now: we are being constituted fit to come out and convey the mind of God now according to His purpose.

R.W.S. In Elisha's time there are things such as famine, war and death. Does that afford occasion for praying, and for heavenly-mindedness to come out?

J.T. Just so. Then do you in your mind connect what you have said now with what was remarked previously as to the new man? Do you want us to understand that you connect it with what we have already had, so as to make it a one-piece matter?

R.W.S. Yes, I had that in mind: so that the mixed conditions in which we are, where these adverse things are happening, are to bring out the features of the new man, to bring out the heavenly-mindedness of the assembly.

J.W.F. Would the pot of oil in chapter 4, along with the new cruse referring to what there is amongst the saints, as previously remarked, represent the two elements that are needful?

J.T. The new cruse would represent something that is new, it is a vessel of a certain kind. The question therefore is what kind of vessel is suggested.

• I suppose all these ideas of vessels must have in mind the persons who form the assembly: what there is in the sense of newness, and then of course what the vessel can be used for, what it is suitable for.

J.W.F. The vessel in chapter 4 is evidently filled with oil: it speaks of "a pot of oil".

J.T. Just so: we had better quote the scripture to help the mind. Each one of us has a mind and our minds need to be aided as much as possible that we may get the facts correctly.

• Verse 20 of chapter 2 speaks not only of the vessel itself, but of what is in it. The saints must be in mind in the idea of salt, because, we have the word in the New Testament,
  • "Have salt in yourselves", Mark 9: 50:

• and that is the idea of the cruse, it has salt in it. It is a preservative idea.

A.R. It is a question of healing power, is it not? It has virtue, for it says the waters were healed:

• "I have healed these waters".

• As to matters of local difficulty we should not be left in doubt: they can always be solved by having healing power in our localities.

J.T. "Have salt in yourselves". It is not what God does for you, not what the brethren may do for you, and not what the ministry may do for you: but what you have in yourself. You have the ability in yourself.

<"Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another".

W.M. "Ye are the salt of the earth", Matthew 5: 13, is what the Lord said when speaking to His own.

J.T. The Lord has constituted us that: that is, divine operations have effected that. It is what you are in that passage – that is another matter: but then we are to have it as well.

S.McC. At Chicago you greatly helped us on the value of oral ministry, spoken ministry. That seems to be stressed in chapter 2: 22:

• "according to the saying of Elisha which he spoke".

• It is not the writing but the saying.

J.T. Showing that the Spirit of God would say that His servant is honoured: his word is coming true. He has been honoured in that sense.

• When you think of a brother you might say of him that he serves well, he says good things: but the question is whether they come true: whether they are real and whether the Spirit of God is in them.

S.McC. Is it not important too that in Elisha's service as it comes out here the unity of the ministry appears? Chapter 3: 11 shows the unity of the ministry.

J.T. Quite so: the brother in question has acquired a reputation. Now he is not only a ploughman, he has acquired a reputation. So that one says,

• "Here is Elisha … who poured water on the hands of Elijah":

  and then the king of Israel says,

• "The word of Jehovah is with him".

• That is the reputation he has got. So you see the importance of it that when their names are mentioned brethren should have reputations, so that it can be said, He has done so and so.

• And when the king of Israel says, "The word of Jehovah is with him", that is evidently not only Elisha's own composition, but the word of Jehovah Himself. He has that reputation.

E.A.L. Elijah said to Elisha, "Ask what I shall do for thee". Would that stress the present value of the prophet?

J.T. Quite so. Elijah is conscious himself that he can do something for the people: he is conscious of it because he says to Elisha,

• "Ask what I shall do for thee".

• That is to say there are persons amongst us today who can do something, and we ought to know it.

F.K.C. As to your remark about what a brother says coming to pass, it says of Agabus in Acts 11: 28 that he

• "signified by the Spirit"

• what was to come to pass: and then he speaks again in Acts 21: 11, regarding Paul, and says,
  • "Thus saith the Holy Spirit".

• He binds his own hands and feet, he enacts the thing.

J.T. Very good: he enacts the thing: he sets it out in principle before the eyes of others. It is a question of what power there is actually amongst us, and that it might be known. We should become conversant with these facts and occurrences that are being mentioned, and with the people involved and their names, and see that God is with them.

H.B. In 2 Corinthians 1 Paul speaks about the preaching of the Son of God "by me and Silvanus and Timotheus": and then it says that "in him is the yea". Is there not a unity in the ministry by known persons? And then the positiveness seen in the thought of "in him is the yea".

J.T. "In him is the yea, and in him the amen, for glory to God by us".

• Not glory to God by Christ, but by us. It is what the saints can do, what God is using the saints for.

• The point would be therefore that we are all to be ready to do things, to do profitable things: and this is to be known, that we may acquire a reputation for clothing and enriching the saints. God would have them enriched, as it says,
  • "this thy so great a people", 1 Kings 3: 9:

• not that we are assuming to be great, but the word is "thy so great a people". God has made us great, if we are great at all.

S.McC. And is this the kind of thing that is needed to meet unholy combinations such as are now before us in the portion read? We have the king of Israel, the king of Judah, and the king of Edom: and the one that meets it is this effective person that you refer to.

J.T. Just so. Yet God is going to bless this combination, in spite of its being a combination. God is going to use it. We read,

• "there was no water for the army" – there was a real need – "and for the cattle that followed them. And the king of Israel said, Alas! that Jehovah has called these three kings together, to give them into the hand of Moab! And Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of Jehovah that we may inquire of Jehovah by him? And one of the king of Israel's servants answered and said, Here is Elisha the son of Shaphat, who poured water on the hands of Elijah. And Jehoshaphat said, The word of Jehovah is with him. And the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat and the king of Edom went down to him".

• Elisha has become known, and it is profitable if we can do anything good that it should be known. And so the word of Jehoshaphat is,
  • "The word of Jehovah is with him".

• The king of Judah is not in good company, although God is helping him: he is not in good company, for Elisha says to the king of Israel, I would not look toward you were it not that the king of Judah is with you. The king of Judah therefore is the saving element: that is another thing.

• All these details are so important, but then the point is whether we are seeking to gain the meaning of them for mutual profit? Elisha can discern where the king of Israel is and he is faithful as to him: but he is also discerning the king of Judah as to certain matters with him. We are to know each other, and to regard each other accordingly.

F.K.C. Why does Elisha say what he does to the king of Israel? Is it because of his associations with Jezebel?

J.T. Well, there was a bad condition there and Jezebel is in it. The house of Ahab was corrupted.

F.K.C. The principle of Roman Catholicism is really there in Jezebel the wicked woman.

J.T. Just so.

R.W.S. As to the word in verse 14,

• "As Jehovah of hosts liveth, before whom I stand",

• Elisha was thinking, not of the three kings, but of Jehovah of hosts. However great the hosts might be, Elisha was standing before Him.

J.T. Jehovah of hosts: that of course is a question of divine Persons, a subject that God has greatly enlarged on lately. Jehovah of hosts is a term mentioned constantly in the Scriptures.

R.W.S. You spoke of the saving feature in the position. We are never in a position where there is not some saving feature if we stand in the presence of such a Person as Jehovah of hosts: "before whom I stand", Elisha says.

J.T. So you see what the believer can count on in view of such circumstances as these: he can count on "Jehovah of hosts". Who knows how many hosts there may be?

• We might say, There are so many in such and such a meeting: we are able to reckon the meeting, the size of it, and so forth: but when we come to Jehovah of hosts, how many are there in the hosts?

• It is marvellous! And then we can think that Jehovah of hosts is on our side, God is on our side: He has got hosts and we can count on them, too.

W.W.M. Would you say a word on, "now fetch me a minstrel"?

J.T. I think that is in the state of the brethren: the idea of the minstrel is music, and it suggests the happy conditions that all these meetings should have. Elisha said he could only speak with the help of a minstrel, that is, a happy condition amongst the saints. The man has power to do things because of it.

W.W.M. So there is an atmosphere created among the saints together whereby prophetic ministry can come out?

J.T. Just so, that is the idea. One can look around at the number of meetings in this country, and in others, and see what minstrelsy, what music there may be.

W.W.M. I fully go with that. I have illustrated it to my own mind in a family reading in the home, you want conditions so that the reading means something. It is not merely reading a few verses of Scripture, but we have a sense of what we are doing and the atmosphere is suitable for it. Is that right?

J.T. Just so, that is what I believe exactly. We have the minstrel. Therefore God is going to help us I believe to get hymns to the Spirit.

J.T. Very good. That is a passage I have often thought of, how the song led on to victory, the song of the Lord.

A.B. In the days of recovery in Nehemiah, there was a certain number of singing men and singing women: and later we have two choirs in relation to the wall of the city.

J.T. Excellent! We want all the good we can get out of the scriptures that are being quoted. That in Nehemiah is a very triumphant note.

• I was just contrasting in my mind what the world has, Washington or London, for instance – not that one would say a word against them – but what the world has and what the christian has, what we have in the sense of song, for instance.

• There is nothing to compare with what there is in the assembly: it is the vessel for all these things, the songs, and so forth, things that the world has not got.

H.B. It says in Psalm 68 that "The singers went before": so that there is a lead given by the singers in matters.

J.T. Just so: read the passage, please.

H.B. "They have seen thy goings, O God … The singers went before, the players on stringed instruments after, in the midst of maidens playing on tabrets", Psalm 68: 24-25.

J.T. "Thy goings", note that.

Rem. We used to sing in our care meetings in Tasmania, but we have had it said that it is not the time to sing as we have not the sisters present in care meetings.

J.T. The singing is quite in order as I said.

R.W.S. Would it require certain hymns in the new book for the care meeting? We have one that speaks of 'Every interest precious to thee, finding in our hearts a place': (Hymn 305) that might be suitable.

R.W.S. Verse 6 says, "the apostles and the elders were gathered together": that would not include sisters.

J.T. No, it would not, but as you go on things become enlarged. We should read the whole chapter to get the full bearing of it, especially from verse 22.

• I would venture to suggest to the brethren that these facts indicate that sisters were present in that great gathering related in Acts 15. I fully believe that that is the fact.

• I believe the Scriptures would show that the Spirit of God was there, and the Spirit of God is mentioned as having part in the thing: so that the sisters must have had their part in it too, to bring out the whole thought.

J.H.J. We have been encouraged in this city to speak of certain matters with the sisters present, such as what scripture we should take up following the completion of a book, and other like matters: but what you are suggesting now is that perhaps we should consider the sisters more widely in this matter of care?

J.T. I would go with that very much, because the sisters should be brought into it: you cannot have the assembly really without them, not fully without them. Therefore they should be there, but there are certain restrictions as to them which we ought to recognise.

R.W.S. Might not a condition arise when it might be well for a sister who has testimony to be at the care meeting and bring it forward?

J.T. Well, if there is an actual discipline meeting, the sisters must be there: and they are there before any action of discipline takes place. Does that answer your enquiry?

R.W.S. Yes, but more than that, I was thinking that if a sister had knowledge of a certain matter that the brethren in care needed to know, there would be nothing improper in the sister coming to the meeting for care and telling the brothers what she knew, would there?

J.T. Quite so. Philip had four daughters who prophesied: they would surely have had a voice in any matter that would be current in their local meeting. They prophesied, they were godly women clearly.

Jas.P. Does not the matter of the apostles and elders being together in verse 6 immediately merge into the thought of the whole assembly, there being no lapse of time between the brothers being together and all the saints?

J.T. Just so, and that is what has forcibly come before me today. I think we might well consider it and the Lord would help us, because there is a real weakness on that point I think

S.McC. I would like a little more help as to the difference in your mind between the deliberative side and the executive side. Are you speaking of the sisters in relation to the executive side only, or are you bringing them into the deliberative side too?

J.T. I do not think we should exclude them because if they have information why should not they give it? The Spirit of God is said to be there in verse 28 of this chapter we are dealing with, and why should they be excluded, either in what is deliberative or in what is executive?

S.McC. We are on the lines of enquiry now, and something has come up that whets that enquiry. We have always understood as to the departments of this chapter that there is a deliberative side (verse 6), "the apostles and the elders": and an administrative side, and that when it comes to the administrative side the sisters come into it as being of the assembly.

J.T. In Romans 16 the first mention is of a sister: there are thirty salutations and the first one saluted is a woman, Phoebe. I think it is significant that she is there. There are many other sisters mentioned in the same chapter.

S.McC. Then on what ground up to now have the sisters been excluded from the meeting for care?

J.T. I just wonder myself. Of course I do not know the situation at the revival of the truth some hundred and twenty years ago: I was not there. But last year, as you know, it was suggested at Bristol that the sisters should be present at these special meetings, and we have fully accepted the truth of that in England and here.

S.McC. I remember too that reference was made to Quemerford and the meetings that were held there years ago: the sisters were there right through, they did not have brothers' meetings. The sisters were there together with the brothers.

J.T. That is true: I attended those meetings and I know that was true. I do not know why matters have taken their present course and why sisters have been so rigidly kept out of certain things. I do not know but I think perhaps we ought to revise things a little.

S.McC. You could hardly think of a woman like Deborah as not helping the brethren in matters of judgment, could you?

J.T. Just so, Deborah would certainly have contributed.

A.A.T. This year in London you referred to the fact that sisters have a great place in these meetings.

J.T. For a long time it has been in mind that there should be something in the way of adjustment regarding sisters being shut out under certain conditions.

F.K.C. Is there not evidence that there were certain sisters with whom Mr. Darby consulted a good deal regarding things in the early days?

J.T. That is right: I know who they were too, and there are several here today who know who they were. There were several sisters who had a great influence, and were highly regarded by the brethren at that time.

E.A.L. Yet they are to be silent in the assembly?

J.T. Just so, and we are not saying that they should speak, because they are set under a certain restriction. We have said that before, and we must keep it in mind.

E.A.L. Two sisters in New York were asked at the assembly meeting if they would repent as turning from the world to the Lord and the brethren, and they said, No! That shows the importance of persons under discipline being at the assembly meetings where they can be appealed to and the Lord might move their hearts.

• There was a measure of criticism of the brethren in New York that this should have been allowed: but doubtless it was because the brethren did not understand what we are speaking of now.

A.B.P. I wonder whether the fact of an epistle being written to the elect lady is intended by the Spirit of God to give dignity to the sisters in that way? I am referring to the second epistle of John.

J.T. "The elder to the elect lady and her children": it is a remarkable thing that she is mentioned as she is.

G.W. How does the matter of Boaz taking ten men of the city at the gate enter into the care meeting? I wondered if the sisters were there?

J.T. Of course they are not mentioned because men are specially required under these circumstances: but you have to go by other scriptures, you have to compare spiritual with spiritual and to go by the general tenor of Scripture, whatever it might be.

C.H.H. I was wondering why in verses 7 and 13 the word "brethren" means, according to the note, 'Men, brethren', as though not applying to sisters? They may have been there, but Peter and James are speaking to the 'Men, brethren'.

J.T. We have to consider the word 'brethren', and what it may mean under such conditions. It may mean sisters as well at times, because we are all brethren.

J.H. Would the fact that the sisters are not specifically mentioned either in the book of Ruth or in Acts 15 indicate that if they were there, it would be in a very unobtrusive and unofficial way?

J.T. You would not be sensible that they were there, but yet they might be there.

A.H. I was wondering if the principle can be seen in Acts 1, where it says,

• "These gave themselves … to … prayer, with several women":

• and then speaks of "Peter, standing up in the midst of the brethren". No doubt that included the women.

J.T. There they are! It shows that at the beginning they were there. It is the first assembly meeting that we have in the book of Acts. I am glad you mentioned that.

• "Several women", we do not know how many, but they were there anyway. Mary the Lord's mother was there.

T.S. In connection with the introduction of the Supper by the Lord, would it seem there were just the apostles there?

J.T. It would seem so. But of course you could not think of leaving women out when the assembly is in question. They must be there.

A.H. Could you help us further as regards Acts 1? I am thinking how Peter unfolds the matter to carry all, and then they move forward to fill the place which has been so violated by Judas, filling his place with another according to the Lord's mind: bringing the Lord and the power of the Spirit in as casting lots.

• Both the deliberative and the executive side were being brought in would you say?

J.T. All that has been said calls to mind the word 'man', the first mention of man in Scripture, Genesis 1: 26. It says there, "Let them have dominion": the word 'them' is plural, it must include women.

A.H. In thinking over what has been said it comes to me that it embraces the full thought of manhood. As you said, "Let us make man" includes both man and woman: and in Acts 1 it is "with several women". So that the matter to be carried forward needed both, they all had to be carried in the mind of Peter by what he said, and then they go forward together in relation to carrying the matter to a conclusion.

J.T. Just so: I think we may very well assume that, because the word 'man' involves woman: "Let them have dominion" includes the woman as well as the man.

A.R. Acts 1: 15 says, "In those days Peter, … said, … Brethren", and there is a footnote to that which says, 'men, brethren', yet we are told women were present. Apparently that must be the idea of correspondence to Genesis 1: 26: "Let us make man".

J.T. Just so, so that "let them have dominion" includes woman as well as man: the word Adam includes woman as well as man.

S.McC. Is it your thought that inquiry should be made as to making room for the sisters in the care meeting?

J.T. Just so, inquiry before the Lord, because the Lord will not fail us in a difficulty, and a real difficulty has arisen. He would give us understanding in all things.

A.A.T. You referred to Philip's daughters: I was wondering where they prophesied. Would it be in the assembly or in somebody's home?

J.T. We have to consider the other scripture that was quoted from 1 Corinthians 14,

• "Let your women be silent in the assemblies".

A.A.T. How can they be silent and yet prophesy?

J.T. The Lord will give us help as to all these matters, because we want the truth. The Lord will not fail us if we seek Him.

A.P. I think what you have been saying bearing on this particular matter of Acts 15 has been in our minds for some time – that we have nothing positive in Scripture to warrant brothers as such coming together for care meetings: but the positive features of this scripture would indicate that the assembly in some way or other should be involved at the care meeting. The dignity and spirituality of the care meeting would be added to by sisters being present.

J.T. So far as I can see now, the sisters must be admitted when the assembly is in question. The word 'assembly' includes them, it must include them.

R.W.S. The assembly is a feminine vessel, which would be suggestive as to the sisters coming into everything.

J.H. In relation to Mr. T.'s enquiry as to prophecy, does 1 Corinthians 14 not indicate that the sisters would be there in a spirit of prophecy? For it says, "but if all prophesy".

J.T. We might well read the passage, 1 Corinthians 14: 23-25,

• "If therefore the whole assembly come together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and simple persons enter in, or unbelievers, will not they say ye are mad? But if all prophesy, and some unbeliever or simple person come in, he is convicted of all, he is judged of all: the secrets of his heart are manifested: and thus, falling upon his face, he will do homage to God, reporting that God is indeed amongst you".

• That is clearly our assembly meeting, and I would say sisters were there: but it does not say that they were prophesying because it speaks about only two or three speaking. That is what governs us as to what we shall have tonight: it is limited to two or three.

J.H. I wondered if the words, "if all prophesy", would indicate that all would be there in a spirit of prophecy?

J.T. The brothers would be there, and they would be free to speak, but there are limitations that govern them – they may speak, two or three.

J.H. Would it be right to connect this scripture in 1 Corinthians 14 with Acts 2, where it says,

• "They were all filled with the Holy Spirit"?

• This was following upon the fact that they were all together in one place: and then further on in that same chapter Peter says,
  • "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy".

• The sisters were there as well as the brothers.

J.T. Quite so: I think that is very important. Then there were the three thousand after Peter's address: there must have been sisters there.

T.N.W. Does it not emphasise what you have been bringing before us recently as to the necessity of all being together in one place? The absence of one affects the whole.

F.K.C. The sisters were evidently all present at the beginning: at the meeting in 1 Corinthians 14 they would be there. The regulation that the apostle makes in 1 Timothy 2: 12 is,

• "I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man".

• Are not these things to govern us? They must all be held in balance.

J.H. As to restrictions that are given as to sisters, the first one is in 1 Corinthians 14: 34:

• "Let your women be silent in the assemblies",

  and then in 1 Timothy 2: 11,12,

• "Let a woman learn in quietness".

• Is what you have referred to in 1 Corinthians 11 as to a woman praying and prophesying apart from the idea of teaching and learning such as these scriptures would convey?

J.T. 1 Corinthians 11: 5 would indicate that women prophesied under certain conditions. There were many there. We do well to recognise them, and at the same time we also must recognise what is said here and in other passages.

• Is it comely for a woman to pray or prophesy with her head uncovered? It is a question of a covering. It is not a question of being a woman, but of the covering. We might touch on these same points again in the next reading.

S.McC. Have you overnight received any further confirmation in regard to the sisters being present in the care meeting?

J.T. In truth it has been a very full time, so that I cannot say with any definiteness that I have received further light since yesterday: but I should be glad to receive anything you may have.

S.McC. We have all been talking over the matter: and in relation to Acts 15 I should like to ask if there is any point where you think the sisters would be asked to go out?

J.T. No, there is no point at which the sisters should be asked to go out because the assembly is involved there, and the assembly must include the sisters.

S.McC. That helps, because it has been current in our minds that the one part of the chapter involved the assembly together, and then the next section just the brothers: the next section, investigation, and the last section the full administrative status. But according to what we had yesterday and what we are now saying, that needs looking into.

J.T. It does: and there is certainly a keen need for looking into the whole matter that has been raised from the meetings yesterday, because we all need help, and I think we all are ready for it, by the Spirit of God. He would give us help.

A.R. Is there a distinction between verse 4 and verse 6 of the chapter?

J.T. I do not think I would make a great distinction: but I think we should do well to read the chapter again, because it is so full of detail. It is the only chapter of the kind we have in the New Testament.

• We might say that it implies a church council, but we do not so regard it, we just call it a chapter of the Scriptures that is instructive. [Acts 15 read.]

A.H. In chapter 4 of the book of Ruth Boaz at first calls ten men specifically, but later he addresses the elders and all the people.

J.T. Quite so, all the people would include the sisters, you mean.

R.W.S. Verse 4 of Acts 15 seems to link on with verse 12: the multitude in verse 12 would certainly include the sisters who would be listening to the account of the work of God.

A.B. Our meetings throughout the week and on the Lord's day have an assembly character, as could be substantiated from Scripture. We have the service of God in 1 Corinthians 11: and according to Acts 20, the reading meetings, as also in 1 Corinthians 3 in relation to the temple of God and the light being there: then in Acts 12 the assembly is connected with prayer: it says there was prayer made by the assembly to God for Peter, so connecting our prayer meeting with the assembly now.

• We have not scriptures in regard to our care meetings being connected with the assembly: but in Acts 15 is there not something of an assembly status involving all the brothers and sisters? So that we should keep in our minds, if something comes up that has to be adjusted, that all should be conducted in a dignified way as being in relation to the assembly. If we looked at the care meeting in the light of the dignity of the assembly it would be greater to us.

J.T. I would say it does imply the assembly.

A.B. We have been viewing it more from our present circumstances than from the assembly side.

J.T. Verses 3 and 4 should be noted: there must have been sisters there, and the multitude in verse 12 would have included sisters.

S.McC. Between verse 4 and verse 12 there is no idea of the sisters going out: it is all one meeting I think. Verses 5 and 6 have been supposed to follow verse 4, whereas it is all of a piece. Verse 5 is what happened historically: verse 6 rightly follows verse 4, it links with verse 4.

J.T. It is a very important matter that "all the multitude" were present while the work of God generally at that time was related by the apostles.

• It seems to me impossible morally that the sisters should be excluded at such a time as that, excluded from the interest in the work of God generally, abroad in the world. That agrees with what you said?

S.McC. Exactly. I think that is what we are getting at, that the multitude includes the sisters, and that it is all one meeting that we have here.

J.T. Then it says that "it seemed good … with the whole assembly" in verse 22: and in verse 28 it should be noted that the Holy Spirit is brought in, which is obviously an assembly matter. The multitude alluded to all through must be assumed to include sisters as well as brothers: the sisters could not be excluded.

A.H. Is it established by verse 27 of the previous chapter, and also by verse 3 of this chapter, that Paul and Barnabas were not set on their way by the brothers in care, but by the assembly?

J.T. That confirms all we have been saying.

T.S. There is a remark by F.E.R. which he made in this country in which he said, 'he would never call the brothers together: he would call the elders together'.

J.T. It is a question if we can speak in that sense at the present time as they did in the beginning, but the truth must be there. There must be the idea of elders who care for things. That is all I would say as to that. F.E.R. usually left things like that for the brethren to work out.

B.T. Could a sister be an elder? We have sisters in sonship in the morning meeting: could a sister also be an elder?

J.T. Scripture would not warrant that.

B.T. Would verse 6 in relation to the apostles and elders be similar to the ten men of the elders in Ruth? Could it be that there were certain matters that came to the elders before they came to the brethren generally? Not necessarily a care meeting, but that there were certain matters that came to the elders first? I was only wondering if locally certain matters might come to the elders before coming to the attention of the saints generally.

J.T. I think we ought to take the statement as it stands. We cannot say we have apostles and elders today: that was at the beginning of christianity.

B.T. I was thinking of the ten men in Ruth, whether that was a like matter, or would you say not?

J.T. That is not the order in the New Testament, that is the Old Testament order. We cannot apply Old testament Scriptures too exactly as to statements or words. You cannot say they are just the equivalent of the same words in the New Testament because we must make way in our minds for the way in which the Spirit of God speaks in the Old and in the New.

• As we group things in the Scriptures, it is the new and the old, the new first: the New Testament must regulate everything in these matters.

Dr.W. Are there not two questions in this chapter? The first question is as to circumcision: it says,

• "they arranged that Paul and Barnabas, and certain others from amongst them, should go up … to the apostles and elders about this question".

• Is that not a basis for our having a preliminary care meeting of enquiry – not that we claim to be apostles and elders, but that we act in that spirit – as to grave questions which come up?

J.T. As to the idea of the apostles and elders – I think the spirit of that might be carried into what we say, the spirit of it: but we cannot formalise things very well. It is better to go by what is actually in Scripture for regulating assembly order at the present time.

• Words used in the Old Testament might be brought into the New literally, but not in the spirit of them: in the spirit of things the New comes first. We cannot put them together and make the same order of words or phrases applicable in the New Testament as is found in the Old. The New Testament has great moral pre-eminence over the whole matter.

Dr.W. What would you say about verse 2, and the arrangement there as to those who should go up to Jerusalem?

J.T. A group of brethren could arrange that any time: it is a question of wisdom. Do you agree with that?

Dr.W. It is a little difficult, having learned that we should have a care meeting and be together in the spirit of the apostles and elders, so as to enquire into questions which could not be openly discussed when sisters were present.

J.T. The chapter we just read indicates clearly that the word 'assembly' implies sisters: they must have been present: that is all I would say there.

R.W.S. Verse 4 precedes verse 6, is that not important? Verse 4 says,

• "They were received by the assembly",

• so the sisters were there when this matter was related.

J.T. Undoubtedly: that is what I would say.

A.H. Would you say that this great attack on the truth really required temple light to meet it? The whole assembly had to be there for temple light to be secured.

J.T. Temple light is needed: we can thank God that we have temple light, and while the Holy Spirit is here we shall have temple light. We can act in it even if we have not the apostles.

• The temple implies the Spirit and the assembly, and the assembly implies the sisters. The sisters must be present, the assembly requires that the sisters be present.

A.H. That greatly helps.

E.A.L. I would refer to the remark just made that we are accustomed to certain things. This very chapter is to set aside a custom that is in the law of Moses but was set aside in the cross. We see in chapter 21 that Paul was a little weak about going back to it. We do not go back to the law of Moses any more, we go on to the truth that we have in the Spirit.

J.T. Therefore we may reiterate the fact that the New Testament acquires a certain pre-eminence. In fact the old economy was in a large measure set aside in view of the present New Testament Scriptures.

J.R.H. There are three verses in this chapter that apply distinctly to the apostles and elders, verses 2, 4, and 6, and in the following chapter, verse 4. I would like to ask how you would regard these apostles and elders in this chapter. Are they responsible men acting under God for the help of all the saints?

J.T. Let us turn back to chapter 2 and read verses 37 to 47. Verse 42 speaks of the

• "teaching and fellowship of the apostles":

• that was governing the whole position: it was authoritative.

• Now I submit to the brethren that this passage indicates clearly the place the apostles had at the outset: the whole position is clearly dominated by the place the apostles had – they dominated everything.

• The authority of the Old Testament is not consulted: the apostles took that place. I think we can easily accept that.

J.R.H. Quite so, but what I want to get at is the reason why the apostles and elders were spoken of by themselves here. In other places they are linked with the assembly, but verses 2 and 6 in chapter 15 speak only of the apostles and elders.

J.T. But then these verses we have read in chapter 2 speak of the whole position, the fellowship inaugurated on the authority of the apostles: and that stands in christianity.

J.R.H. Well then, in this decision at Antioch to send to the apostles and elders at Jerusalem, the idea was to take up the matter with responsible men there who had authority from God in relation to the promotion of the truth?

J.T. Quite so: the same thing applies now in the spirit of it.

J.R.H. So then when the assembly is coupled with them, is there the idea of the full assembly authority, do you think?

J.T. Just so: verse 42 of chapter 2 says that

• "they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles".

• The word 'fellowship' is greatly stressed there as well as the teaching and they continued in that.

S.J.H. As we have not the apostles today, is the authority vested in the assembly?

J.T. I would say that.

E.A.L. Is verse 22 important in connection with linking the apostles and elders with the whole assembly? That is, those that went out with Paul and Barnabas went from the whole assembly.

J.T. Just so. I am sure the sisters should be there: the tenor of the whole matter implies that, I believe. The influence of the sisters under God has a sobering, subduing effect, a beneficial effect, just as we were saying about the use of the minstrel.

• It had a beneficial effect with Elisha, and every meeting should begin with minstrelsy, that is, with a note of praise to God in the assembly. There ought to be a general understanding as to what is meant as conveyed in Acts 15.

A.R. To make things definite, will you just tell us how you think this meeting should be announced on the Lord's day morning?

J.T. We can afford to wait, and arrive at those points in course of time. The matter will come into current language amongst us according to the truth that has been asserted: we shall have current language for it in time if we are just patient.

C.H.H. Would not one of the advantages of such a meeting be that things could be completed immediately?

J.T. You mean in such a meeting as that in Acts 15? Just so, whenever the circumstances require it: that is what I would say.

T.N.W. Would that be confirmed in the three steps that we have often alluded to in Matthew 18? They seem to be very simple steps: first the individual, then two or three others, then the whole assembly.

J.T. I think that is conclusive. And I would propose that now we proceed with chapter 4 of 2 Kings.

What we have had yesterday afternoon and today has been largely a diversion, but of great importance as dealing with the whole matter of the truth: and we are always ready for that of course. As convened in this way we should be ready for the truth whatever it may be.

At the same time our point for the moment is Elisha, the truth standing in relation to Elisha. There is wisdom seen in him that we may well understand and imitate in any matters of this kind that might come up.

W.W.M. Would you say that one of the great points in these first seven verses is the matter of the Holy Spirit and how much He is becoming valued amongst us? The woman had the oil evidently, but the way she said she had nothing but a pot of oil would seem as if it did not amount to very much in her mind.

J.T. It amounted to a great deal more than she understood, as the event shows. So that what you say is quite right: because the pot of oil has to do with the Spirit, and that is the point that God has raised amongst us recently.

W.W.M. We would all have to admit, possibly, that we have not regarded the Spirit as we should, and that is what this woman seems to teach us.

W.L. Would you say too that the woman got help because she had confidence in the man of God?

J.T. That is right: she had confidence, which is a great matter, and God had put the ability in the man of God to help her. Therefore she did right in applying to him: she says to him,

• "Thy servant my husband is dead …".

• She did right in appealing to him and he acted wisely in what he told her to do. That is a great matter for us because we have the spirit of wisdom and we should be prepared to use it when difficult cases arise.

T.S. She was prepared to be instructed.

J.T. Yes, and she was subject. When brethren are in difficulty they should be ready to listen to instruction. We have the spirit of wisdom among us, and we can give them instruction.

• This woman was linked with the sons of the prophets, that is to say with the servants of God whom God was using at that time in the service, so she deserved attention and Elisha gave her the attention she needed, and the whole matter was settled.

• We have the Spirit of God with us and if anything of this kind arises God would help us by His Spirit to settle matters.

• As we said before, eldership is included in all this: and even if we have no elders we have the spirit of wisdom amongst us, and we can count on it. That applies to the assembly as being the vessel of light, the vessel in which the Spirit of God is.
  • "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God?" the apostle says: "and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?", 1 Corinthians 3: 16.

• The temple of God is the place of light, and there is the settlement of everything in the presence of the Spirit.

Ques. The prophet asked what she had "in the house": what does that refer to?

J.T. The house refers to a system where there is rule. Her husband was dead so she ruled over things, and the prophet told her what to do. And that was, in principle, to use the Spirit: to lean on the Spirit of God and to use Him, as it were.

A.L. This woman said, "Thy servant my husband is dead, and thou knowest that thy servant feared Jehovah".

• He was a man who feared God evidently and characteristically the Spirit of God was operating in his heart. She may have despised his will, but that is the legacy he left her.

J.T. Very good: he made his will, so to speak, a good simple way to put it. There was apparently plenty of room for the Spirit: and where that is so

• He would make known "what is the breadth and length and depth and height: and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge", Ephesians 3: 18-19.

W.L. Does it appear to be a characteristic matter here, rather than a mere title?

J.T. I think it is characteristic. It is applied to Elijah as well as to Elisha, but particularly now to Elisha.

• That is, he is characteristically a man who began in a very small way as a ploughman, illustrating what the Spirit of God says in 1 Corinthians 1: 26, 30 as to "not many noble …" being called.

• We have persons mentioned who show that God has taken up ordinary people: but God makes the man. That is to be stressed in the idea of the man of God, that it is not what he has made himself, not his own characteristics, but what God has made him: "of him are ye in Christ Jesus", that is the idea.

A.R. The woman herself calls Elisha this.

J.T. Yes, she does: he is constantly called 'man of God', and she is one who does it. This woman of Shunem is called a great woman, but at the same time she has a right attitude about it: she would seem to be comely and humble about it all despite the wealth she has.

A.H. She says to her husband, "I perceive that this is a holy man of God".

• Does that indicate that she got some gain from what was set out in the previous incident?

J.T. It does. David said of Abigail, "Blessed be thy discernment", 1 Samuel 25: 33: this woman had discernment too.

• We now have the sisters specially before us and very much has been made of them, and we believe that God is helping us as to the whole matter. It is striking how they behave in these incidents, how simple they are and how comely.

• This woman is in keeping with the position, making no show of her wealth or of anything that she has as according to the flesh. She appealed to her husband as to Elisha, "this is a holy man of God", she says.

J.P. Does the fact that women come so prominently into the early days of Elisha's ministry suggest to us the need of the subjective work of the Spirit to develop these features of the man of God in us?

J.T. Surely, the subjective work of the Spirit. I was thinking how it would appear:

• "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! …", Psalm 133: 1.

• So it is not a question of what is in heaven, it is what there is to be seen down here, how good and pleasant the brethren appear as seen in unity.

J.P. Peter speaks in his epistle of holy men of God speaking in the power of the Holy Spirit. I suppose that would come into Elisha's ministry, the Holy Spirit's power in his speaking.

S.J.H. Would not expressions found in the early service of Elijah and Elisha bear on this term, 'man of God'? Elijah could say,

• "Jehovah the God of Israel … before whom I stand":

  and Elisha also says,

• "Jehovah of hosts … before whom I stand".

J.T. I suppose the idea would be that the servant is just before God. He is not thinking of anyone else, but just of pleasing God. So it was said of an earlier saint, Enoch, that he had this testimony that he pleased God.

S.J.H. That would be the moral basis of the term.

R.A. Is this woman of wealth in power in the place where she dwells? I understand the meaning of the word 'Shunem' is quietness.

J.T. You say quietness? Very good, it is just what should be seen in the sisters to be quiet and restful: not to make a fuss about things, but to be restful and subject.

A.P. Does the thought of the man of God suggest the provision for the assembly to the end of the dispensation as following on the apostolic days, as being what is characteristic in our day?

J.T. Why do you say that, because it is hardly mentioned except in Timothy?

A.P. I thought in connection with the scripture before us that the idea of widowhood and such circumstances as are set out in the widow bring to light the provision that is found in men like Elisha, who is termed the man of God. I thought it would help us as to the understanding and appropriation of the Holy Spirit's service with us to the end.

J.T. Yes: that is the great point that is being stressed at the present time, the matter of the Spirit: it is not simply what is seen in certain men, but the Spirit is taking charge of things.

• It is not a time when we have great men as in earlier days, like the apostle Paul and others such as Luther and Mr. Darby. It is not a time for these. They came up and God made them what was needed: they filled the gap as it were, and they were content to be without any distinction.

• I think that is the idea, because the Spirit of God is jealous as to what His rights are, as He is in charge of everything. He is here as sent from heaven and He is in complete charge of everything. And so let us continue until the end, for that is what I believe will characterise the end.

• The Spirit of God is on earth as in us and here with us. This morning, at this very moment, the Spirit is ready to help us and we are conscious of it. As we begin our meeting we are conscious that the Spirit is here: we have the idea of the minstrel. But the Spirit of God is the minstrel really, Himself: He is the power of everything.

A.P. I thought that that fits in with the idea that Elisha does not provide the oil himself: it was there already. That is to say attention is called to what is there, suggestively the Holy Spirit, and the dignity that is proper to Him.

J.T. People are very prone to say, 'Our brother, Mr. So-and-So, the Lord's servant', when we are not always so sure whether we can designate a man as the Lord's servant.

• The servant himself is not assuming that title, so we had better just be simple about what a man is, and designate him accordingly.

• What we want is the power, that is the point. We want to see where the Spirit of God is and what He is doing, and that the assembly is in mind.

• But the subjects of this chapter are very remarkable, and we should confine ourselves largely to them to get the full gain of them beginning with this one about the Shunammite.

C.H.H. Would you suggest that this wealthy woman is a continuation of the previous woman, that she is one who is now living "on the rest": that is, that she is in the value of the Holy Spirit?

J.T. That is good: but there is another thing, Why is she said to be a great woman? Her husband is not said to be a great man.

• She is distinguished from her husband in that sense, that she must have had means, and why is her husband not in it as well? Or does she control her own money and spend it?

• As we consider the matter, perhaps she is not such a simple person as we had thought. She should be distinguished as a wife, as having a husband and recognising him, which indeed she does, but perhaps she does not recognise him enough, because she is the one who is doing things. She is the one that is in the lead, which is hardly right.

R.W.S. Is he not rather poor himself from what comes out later? He questioned her going to the prophet, saying, "It is neither new moon nor sabbath". He is not very spiritual, is he?

J.T. Clearly not: he is more or less kindly and subject. He feels what has to be done, you might say, but why should the wife be so distinguished and called a great woman, as she is by the Spirit of God?

• The word 'wealthy' means 'great': but why should she be made so much of? Why should there not be just the ordinary thought of man and wife, so that things are according to God?

• I was just wondering why we cannot get something out of it as to husbands and wives, because here the wife comes so much into prominence, whereas God's thought is to have husbands and wives moving together and not one predominating above the other.

J.L.P. I wondered if she did not set out an excellent spirit in the matter of perceiving, for she says,

• "I perceive that this is a holy man of God":

• but when it comes to making provision for the man of God she says, "Let us". So that do you not think we might look into this matter of working things out with one another to get the best?

J.T. Very good. She certainly is not very unseemly. At the same time there is something peculiar in that the Spirit of God brings forward the use of the word 'wealthy' in connection with her instead of placing things in her husband.

• Then she is the one who constrained the prophet to enter, and who proposed building the room for him. She must have been resting in something that she possessed in view of the man of God and what can be done for him.

• The question is whether we can get anything out of it as to regularity in these matters, because God is the God of order. It is a question of a man and his wife, and we had better see whether they stand in relation to others as they should and whether the truth of God is being honoured through them.

• Aquila and Priscilla, for instance, are mentioned six times equally one with the other. There is no distinction between them in that sense.

A.A.T. Is the elect lady mentioned by John a great woman?

J.T. Just so: that is a good example. It is remarkable that John should use that term: he speaks of the elect lady and her children: the children are mentioned too.

W.L. Are you suggesting that this woman is morally similar to Priscilla? And at the present time is it not your thought and the desire of all of us that our sisters should come into things morally and spiritually along with the brothers?

J.T. Along with the brothers – that is what the Spirit of God is stressing: the sisters should have their place with the brothers under certain limitations.

• And now the question is whether this woman of Shunem is taking her right place in relation to her husband: whether there is affection with us so that we can be regulated, husbands and wives, according to God?

• Because Aquila and Priscilla, I believe, are excellent examples of the right-minded husband and wife and how they are related one to the other. They shine together and are able to do things: as Phoebe is in Romans where she is mentioned as a servant of the assembly at Cenchrea: a very remarkable thing that she is able to be that.

E.A.L. I would like to get your thought for my own help and that of the brothers as to the place the father has here. It says, "and the child grew, and it came to pass one day, that he went out to his father to the reapers".

• Is there an implication there that the mother was keeping the son too much to herself, as if she had acquired him through the prophet's word and was not really giving the father the place over him that he should have?

J.T. I think he is rather weak: he sends the sick child back to his mother. Why cannot he do something for him himself?

E.A.L. He sends him back by a servant rather than taking him himself.

A.H. Does Judges 1: 13-15 help at all in this balanced working of things together? Achsah urges her husband to ask for the field, and she herself asks for springs of water.

J.T. Very good. If you link that up with John 4 you will get something of interest, because it is a woman there too, the woman of Samaria, and she knows all about water. It is wonderful, all that is said to her as to worship in that particular chapter.

A.H. I think that is helpful, because it is striking with that woman that she affects the men: she says, "Come, see a man". She has the Spirit springing up in her.

J.T. Just so. Caleb recognises what is needed in the sister, his daughter: he gives her springs of water because that is what she valued. And that is what is so needed, the power of springs. Achsah sprang off her ass and Rebecca sprang off the camel. It is a question of a spring and the power of grace and the Spirit of God acting.

R.W.S. The devil has spoiled the thought of womanhood, has he not, especially here in the States: he has lowered the great place women have in the mind of God. I was thinking too of the allusion Paul makes to "silly women" in 2 Timothy 3: 6.

• In this scripture in Kings there is great public breakdown, and we are living in days of breakdown: so that these feminine features are to be enshrined in the assembly, in their proper setting, our sisters marked by being great spiritually.

J.T. This woman is great apart from her husband clearly: evidently her husband has not made her so. She has money of her own that she can use, and she is going to use it: and of course she does it pretty well: but then the question is whether she has not too much influence in what she is doing?

W.W.M. Do you think that Deborah sets out the right idea? When Barak asks her to go with him she says, I will go with you but it will not be to your honour: you should be head, I do not want to be the head of this matter. Is that the idea?

J.T. Just so: and so it is remarkable that Deborah is not mentioned in Hebrews 11, whereas Barak is: the Spirit of God seems to keep the man in his place, to keep the place filled properly, filled by a man.

T.N.W. Is there anything in the fact that the child's being on her knees till noon did not seem to have any avail? She did not bring her husband into that matter, whereas "men ought always to pray", Luke 18: 1.

J.T. That is right, that is some of the instruction that just came up yesterday. Some may say, What about the prayer meetings? Well, it is clear that women are not to pray audibly in the assembly:

• "I will … that men pray every where", the apostle says, 1 Timothy 2: 8.

J.W.F. Would the word in Ephesians 5 in relation to husbands loving their wives even as the Christ also loved the assembly, show us that this matter of the 'man of God' has to be taken on by the husbands in view of the wives becoming what they should be?

J.T. I think it might be well for the passage in Ephesians 5 to be read to get the full bearing of it. [Ephesians 5: 22-33 read.]

• There we have the whole subject of husbands and wives in the household: and I think we might well proceed now with our subject in 2 Kings so as to get the bearing of things with this great woman and see how it would help us as to our households.

F.W. In verse 8 it seems that the woman took the initiative without her husband: apparently she had not consulted her husband because it says,

• "and she constrained him to eat bread. And so it was, that as oft as he passed by, he turned in thither to eat bread".

• She does not seem to have spoken to her husband till afterward.

J.T. I noticed that. We began with Elisha however: Elisha is our subject: but this great woman should be kept in mind, that as you say she takes the initiative herself. I think God is helping us in this great subject of husbands and wives in the assembly setting:

• and no doubt it has come up that we might get things in order, that sisters and brothers alike may be regulated by the truth: that sisters may not take the initiative too much but may leave the initiative with the brothers.

G.W. What is in mind in verse 13 where she says, "I dwell among mine own people"?

J.T. Dwelling with our own people is very good, but there is more than that needed: because she might do that and still be boastful of her own wealth and do these things for the man of God on her own initiative, getting a room and a bed and all these things without her husband.

R.W.S. Elijah took the child out of the bosom of the mother, and here the child dies on its mother's knees.

• "He sat on her knees till noon, and died".

• Is that a balancing thought, as if there is something wrong here and out of balance?

J.T. There is something wrong that we have to get right: so let us proceed with verse 8:

• "And so it was, that as oft as he passed by, he turned in thither to eat bread. And she said to her husband, Behold now, I perceive that this is a holy man of God, who passes by us continually. Let us make, I pray thee, a small upper chamber" –

• we might dwell on that for a moment – "let us": now that is very good, but you see she is doing it, she is taking the initiative, and I think that has to be corrected somewhat.

C.H.H. Would you say that where there are riches there is always a danger of degenerating into what is Laodicean? As boasting in them there might be degeneration.

J.T. Just so. She is a wealthy woman who has a husband, and things should have been normal between them: but things are happening which indicate that God is dealing in discipline. We want to get the good of this discipline as we proceed, so let us read verses 10 to 16.

• We see here that she is the actor: she is doing everything. The fact is that she is leading in the whole matter. But still God is with the prophet, and that is the point to notice because we are dealing with Elisha: we want to get all the good we can from this servant Elisha.

• God is clearly with him, and we can thank God that He is with the servant even if there are certain discrepancies: and I think there are some with Elisha himself because he brings Gehazi into things and they take character from that.

• So the child dies and we have to inquire why we have such discipline as this, that the child should die: and then that Elisha should say to Gehazi, Do so and so. We had better read on from verse 17 to verse 37. There is something wrong with the boy's head, he says,
  • "My head!"

• but why should it be the head? I think there has been too much education in all probability, and that, attached to the wealth of the mother, is at the bottom of all this. Still, God is in the thing.

• But the child dies, and now Gehazi is brought into it, and there is a defect in him too. We have to watch and see where there are these defects to be corrected.

• The woman has a title: she is called the Shunammite: she is evidently a distinguished person and she said it was well with her, but it was not well. Then when the servant did Elisha's bidding the child was not awakened. Things were not going well. Why should they not go well?

• Nevertheless God is in the whole matter and we have to see how He finally intervenes. But there is much to be considered.

• What has Elisha in mind, for instance, in looking through the house? What is in the house and what kind of a house is it? What kind of furnishings has it, and are there evidences of pride? The house has to be considered, and the man of God has to change his methods too, so that there are certain discrepancies all around.

• As we were saying, why should he walk through the house to and fro? Is it to see what is going on there, what magazines might be there and all that sort of thing? Because whatever things are wrong are in mind for correction.

• Then finally God comes in in resurrection, and we read that the woman took up her son and went out. And so the matter is settled, satisfactorily settled. Still, there were discrepancies that need not have been there, and that is the point we need to learn.

Now I think we might as well go on to the next section as we have this great matter settled, and have something for our souls, I trust, every one of us. We might read from verse 38 to the end of the chapter.

• Here we have the sons of the prophets coming forward again, the younger generation, and what marks them? Someone is careless in what he is doing, in what he shreds into the great pot, and he is causing death. If that is not corrected there will be moral death.

• But the man of God knows what to do, and we can always say, Thank God for the man of God. He is thinking for God, and the thing is adjusted as it should be.

A.H. Does Gilgal in Joshua 5 offset this matter of Gilgal here, do you think? It says there that "This day have I rolled away the reproach of Egypt from off you". And then immediately following on that it says that "they ate of the old corn of the land". Why should there be famine in Gilgal if the truth is maintained?

J.T. Why indeed?

J.P. You were stressing in the beginning of these meetings the setting out of the spirit of grace on the part of Elisha. Do I gather that you are now drawing to our attention the manner in which Elisha is meeting all these various conditions, that we might be able to see the spirit in which the work is carried out?

J.T. Quite so, how emergencies can be met and discrepancies corrected: the chapter is full of details in this respect.

W.L. In going to Gilgal would Elisha still be finding the need in himself for self-judgment?

J.T. Just so, it is a question of dealing with the flesh. The flesh is still there and we must deal with it.

A.R. The salvation of the younger ones lies in being near the older brothers and sisters.

J.T. I think that is good because they are not inclined that way: they gravitate towards each other instead of listening to, and being with, the older brothers and sisters, and that is where their safety lies. They mingle with each other just because they are young, but the older ones would have more influence with them for good than could be found amongst themselves.

F.K.C. In this paragraph it calls attention to "a wild vine", and "wild colocynths".

J.T. That is some youthful influence I am certain, and there is death in the pot on account of that. God alone can save us from all these things.

R.W.S. And it is "into the field". Would that be some feature of the world?

J.T. Very likely.

A.H. Will you say something about the meal, please?

J.T. It is the humanity of Christ that is in mind. It is not the kind of humanity where young people would desire to have this and that and to make a show. It is the Spirit of Christ that we want, that kind of humanity, that kind of man: let us bring Him into our evenings or whatever gatherings it may be.

F.W.W. Will you tell us what you have had in mind recently in connection with the reading of whole passages of Scripture? Is it because there is the danger of taking verses out of their context if they are read by themselves?

• And then you mentioned also the matter of procedure in the giving out of hymns.

J.T. We are to let the Scripture have its full place. And if hymns are to be sung, let us sing hymns, and not parts of hymns.

• I do not say we may not give out parts of hymns, but I think there is too much of it, giving out one verse where a whole hymn could be sung as it was intended to be sung. If it was worth composing it is worth singing as a whole at a given time.

• It should be a great matter in settling and balancing things amongst us to have the idea of the minstrel more prominent, to have the hymns sung properly and sung well. We do not get the idea of the hymn at all in one verse, not the whole idea.

C.H.H. It is remarkable that there is no resentment shown by her. She might have resented the fact that she had been carried away captive, but there must have been a work of God in her.

J.T. Just so, she accepts her circumstances: it is a question of the government of God. Although a young person, she is ready to do things and she is affected by what affected her master. Her exclamation in verse 3,

• "Oh, would that my lord were before the prophet that is in Samaria!"

• would show that. She is not simply a maid, but a little maid, affected by what affected her master, the one above her: showing that young people are to learn to be subject and appreciate conditions, and to do the best they can in any given circumstances in subjection to God.

S.J.H. Was it not remarkable that she knew the prophet could cure her master? There was no one else cured of leprosy, was there?

J.T. That was the point, she apparently knew. What remarkable intelligence she had! I am remarking that in view of the number of young people that are coming along in the truth, that they may become useful and take on things, and do anything they can in any given circumstance to bring out what is of God.

A.H. You remarked this morning on the importance of the young people keeping company with the old. This incident would seem to show that she had kept some company with the prophet.

J.T. She accepts the position. It is striking to me that we are told she is a little maid, meaning that she is just a servant who was waiting on Naaman's wife. She was subject and she was intelligent, but how did she know all this?

A.H. You would think, therefore, that before her captivity she must have kept company with the prophet?

J.T. We have to infer that for she certainly knew that he had this power. Another thing that comes up is the pride of Naaman: he expected the prophet to do so and so and recognise his importance.

Ques. Would this incident show the value of very early instruction for our children in the knowledge and ways of God?

J.T. Certainly, parents ought to teach the children as much as possible, teach them what is good and give them to know that time is important, of great value and to be utilised and not wasted.

F.W. The exclamation shows it was a very real matter with her.

J.T. It shows that she was a really feeling person. Although she was only a little girl, a little maid, she was a feeling person: the exclamation would show that. She was not simply a person paid to do things, but her heart was in the thing – that her master should be cured.

R.W.S. She knows how to speak: she can speak well of those who serve the Lord. Is it not important in these days to know how to serve the Lord and to speak well of those who do?

J.T. Just so.

F.W. Anyone preaching the glad tidings should have the feelings of this little maid.

J.T. Quite so: that a little person like this in such menial circumstances should be so affected is very striking and commendable and ought to be very instructive to all young people here at the present time.

J.H.P. Is it not striking that the Lord may use any agency in order to make His work manifest? In Luke 4 the Spirit of God calls attention to this passage we have read today. These persons were singled out so that the work of God might be manifest.

J.T. Quite so: it is a time of the sovereignty of God, and we cannot say things must be done because of the circumstances: we must count on the sovereignty of God in doing things.

• The Lord Jesus Himself uses these incidents to bring out the sovereignty of God, that God acts as He pleases. We must not expect Him to do as we please, He does as He pleases.

A.B. This morning we were referring to the great or wealthy woman, and you were emphasising the discrepancies in the chapter: but here we have a little maid who had right feelings.

• It says she was brought out of the land of Israel, a very touching matter, that she is carrying God's thoughts with her in relation to His people. It says nothing about the divided kingdom but that she was brought "out of the land of Israel": she is apparently a trustworthy person.

J.T. Just so. We can only speak typically: the Old Testament contains types but the type is a type of something, and the thing is to see what the something means.

• Undoubtedly here it is the sovereignty of God to which the Lord is calling attention: that there are things to be done and God would do them as He pleases. It is for us to count on God.

• So the little maid is to be noticed first and the next thing would be the pride of Naaman. He expects that the prophet would do so and so for him, but Elisha does not do it: instead he humbles him: he says,
  • "Go and wash in the Jordan seven times"

• and he went and plunged in and was cleansed. But he would not do it at first. His servants enjoined him however: they said that if the prophet had told him to do some great thing would he not have done it?

• So he humbled himself, and the thing for us older people to do is to humble ourselves and not expect great things to be done for us: but to humble ourselves and do what we are told to do.

E.A.L. The little maid gives a great example to us: she had faith that something could happen that had never happened before: she had no knowledge of anyone ever before being cured of leprosy. Do you think it fits in with what the Lord said to Nathanael,

• "Thou shalt see greater things than these", John 1: 50?

J.T. We have been enlarging on that quite recently, the idea of greater things. It is a question of having great expectations, but on right lines. So the Lord enlarges on what was said, and He says, "Thou shalt see greater things than these".

R.W.S. I was thinking what great matters are set in motion by just a remark of this little maid: and then the availability of Paul's sister's son who becomes Paul's saviour. Great matters can come from young persons moving rightly.

J.T. Very good: and another incident of a young person comes in in connection with prayer, in the case of Rhoda. Much prayer had been made for Peter, yet the brethren did not believe that he had been delivered despite their prayers for him, showing the inconsistency that oftentimes marks us.

• They had been praying for a thing and now they were not ready for it: they said Rhoda was mad, so that she was persecuted because of this unbelieving attitude.

J.P. Do you think that services of this kind taken on by our young people in our localities would considerably help in developing in them the features of men of God?

J.T. Very good.

W.W.M. This little girl demonstrates an instance of a young person coming from a godly home where things are right: whereas in the chapter we had this morning things were not right as was shown by the fact that the boy had it all in his head, and he died. But this girl had it in her heart, and she was capable of bringing it out at a right time.

J.T. Quite so, and she had feeling about it too. No doubt her mistress would appreciate the feeling of the girl for her master.

• "Oh, would that my lord were before the prophet that is in Samaria!" she said:

• she was full of feeling and reality in the thing: and of course that is what is needed in the service of God, to have right feelings and if it is a right thing to be thoroughly in it and do it well.

B.W. Would you say she was rendering testimony in a foreign land?

J.T. She accepts her circumstances, although humbling: that I think is the point. She is in thorough keeping with the work to be done and has feelings about it. But how is Naaman affected? Is he affected as much as the little maid? I do not think he is.

J.P. Sometimes we think our circumstances are not so propitious as they might be. Would this help us to see that in God's ordering our circumstances are set on the lines of being available for service?

J.T. Available for service, exactly, and very extended influential service in the case of this little girl.

A.W. Does she keep herself in subjection, would you say, when she goes to her mistress and refers to the man as "my lord"?

J.T. Yes: she does not attempt to approach Naaman herself: she has discernment as to what is right: in her case she should not go to a man like that and speak to him directly, but she goes to her mistress. It is an orderly, sensible, suitable thing to do.

Ques. Would it link on with what the apostle says in Philippians 1: 12-13, as to his adverse circumstances turning out to the furtherance of the glad tidings?

J.T. Very good.

A.R. What you said is important, that this maid is in her circumstances in relation to her God: God is operating sovereignly in her.

J.T. Yes, that is the idea I think: and she would have the information brought to her master in a seemly way through her mistress: so that we have what follows in verses 4 and 5 where the king takes up the matter.

R.B.P. Joseph was carried off to Egypt, but he never lost his excellent spirit.

J.T. Very good, and he never lost his feelings. He was entirely superior to his circumstances: so that the great question for us is as to superiority to our circumstances, so that we should be able to do things with a right spirit and feeling.

B.T. Is there not gain in naming things as they are? She says he would "cure him of his leprosy": she was not afraid to name the disease, to call it what it was: whereas in the preceding chapter the woman said it was well when it was not well.

J.T. Just so: and no doubt persons would whisper among themselves, Do you know that Naaman is a leper? But this maid knew, and she names the thing, and it was his leprosy, it was Naaman's own case. Now the question is what Naaman will do.

• The whole thing is confused and darkened by the king of Syria's action, and then the king of Israel rent his garments, another foolish and unseemly thing, and unreal. The king of Israel is quite mistaken and the whole thing is darkened, and Naaman himself is not right about it. He is full of pride, and how often it darkens us when pride and hurt feelings enter into things of this kind!

A.R. Is that not leprosy in its essence – pride?

J.T. Just so: but now in verse 8 we come to "Elisha the man of God": now we come to the real work of God in Elisha, representing grace, which is the subject before us.

• So when Naaman is told to wash in Jordan seven times it is the light of God for him: but how is he going to treat it? "Naaman was wroth", it says. How seriously we may be affected in the pride of our hearts when we might have been saved and helped in some way!

J.P. Elisha said to the king in verse 8, "let him come now to me, and he shall know that there is a prophet in Israel".

• Is it in your mind that calling attention to the man of God and what he stands for is of greater importance than the cure of leprosy in itself?

J.T. Just so: it is the light: Elisha represents the light of God and that was the great point at the time: Elijah and Elisha represent what was current, Elisha following up Elijah, so that the word of God proceeds.

• But now the one who needs help is full of pride and almost misses the blessing. Still, he is capable of being put right, and it is a great matter to have a brother capable of being put right when he is wrong so that he is saved thereby.

E.A.L. The little maid spoke of the prophet that is "in Samaria", but really the prophet was in Israel.

J.T. The little girl is dealing with the facts. She is not a politician, she does not know things as a politician would know them: she is simple and treats the facts as they are: that is, "the prophet that is in Samaria": not simply Israel, but nearby. Literally these are the very facts.

R.W.S. She had faith, and that transcends any political barriers.

A.H. The prophet himself had had good experience with the Jordan. I wonder if the import of it is in the insistence that this man should use it?

J.T. Quite so: there is virtue in the Jordan. Apparently this is the first great miracle that Elisha performed. He was quite conversant with the Jordan, and that gives force to his message to Naaman to go and use its waters.

H.P. Would that be emphasised by the word in Zechariah 4: 6, "not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit"? I wondered if the sovereign action of the Spirit entered into Naaman's going down and washing so that his flesh became again like the flesh of a little child?

J.T. He does what he is told now that he is amenable to correction, which is a very great matter for the man who has been wrong. To be amenable to correction is a great matter and salvation depends upon it.

J.W.D. Why was the regular procedure for the cure of leprosy not taken up here?

J.T. It is a question of who is doing it: it was the maid. We are dealing with her, and our children here before us must be helped on those lines. This is not the way to cure leprosy according to the types: it is just an ordinary thing, to wash in Jordan.

• What is the virtue in it? It must be the connection with Elisha, the virtue must lie there: he represents grace in the service of God.

S.J.H. Could you help us as to helping Naaman to come down? The servants seem to have had power to bring this haughty man down.

J.T. It is having influence for good: these servants had influence for good and they used it, and Naaman was amenable to it and was saved in that way.

S.J.H. Do you not think we need help on these lines?

J.T. I do think so, as to having influence for good and using it as much as possible. It would be a great matter if the brethren all used the influence they have for good and let it be extended to others.

R.A. At the beginning of these meetings something was said of the numeral seven and it comes in here in this passage.

J.T. Showing that the prophet is intelligent from the divine standpoint. God Himself uses the numeral seven very much: it is a numeral which has great importance in Scripture. Numerals are of great importance because they convey light from God: God uses them Himself very much.

R.W.S. The servants of Naaman are skilled in the way they approach him: "My father", they say. Do they not express the kind of grace that is represented in Elisha?

J.T. The expression "my father" here is to be noted because it comes down from Elisha. He had used it himself. Now Naaman was a big man with his horses and chariots, but as we have said, he was too proud.

• So Elisha uses the numeral seven that belongs to the divine way, and sends a messenger to convey it: not anything very great, but just a messenger, as Mary Magdalene was sent to speak for the Lord.

• Elisha says how the cure is to be made: it is not the ordinary way of the types: it is a question of what the little girl has proposed, showing how her word has been carried, and the success is complete.

A.H. As to the word 'wash', have you any thought as to the insistence on the person himself doing it?

J.T. It might I believe refer to the epistle of John, the great abstract truth that comes in there. It is that sort of thing. But Naaman was wroth: he was not ready for it, and it is often so with us: we are not ready for the truth.

• Naaman "thought", that is, he was occupied with his own importance which would interfere with his own blessing. He said, "I thought, He will certainly come out to me": but why should he come out to him?

• What a man of God Elisha is! Naaman had no idea of what Elisha was: he had no sense really of what the man of God was. Naaman was a remarkably wise and good man, but still a wise and good man may be very foolish when his pride is hurt.

Dr.W. It takes great skill to deal with an angry man, does it not?

J.T. Just so. He wanted Elisha to come out and call on the name of Jehovah and make it a big matter, just as is current in Rome now, a big matter, conveying religious bigness and superiority.

• He says, "I thought, He will … call on the name of Jehovah his God, and wave his hand". That is very like Rome, making some sign of that kind as if it were effective.

• Then Naaman goes on to speak about his country, and what goes on in Damascus. It is nothing but human pride and national feeling, and that often stands in the way of the saints of God.

C.H.H. That is different from the man in Luke. He said to the Lord that he was not worthy that He should enter into his house, but would He just speak the word? There is quite a contrast between the spirits of these two men.

J.T. Just so: faith existed in the man in the New Testament. So this man speaks of what he expected the prophet to do.

• Then he goes on to talk about national position and importance: "Are not the Abanah and the Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel?" – as you might say, Are not the things in America greater than the things in other countries? It is just national pride, and we must be rid of it if we are christians.

• So it goes on that "he turned and went away in a rage". He is standing in his own light, as many do.
  • But "his servants drew near, and spoke to him and said, My father, if the prophet had bidden thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he says to thee, Wash and be clean?"

• It is common sense very often that is needed, and now he is sensible and takes good advice: he is amenable to good advice.
  • "Then he went down, and plunged himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God".

• And why should he not? It is well worth while to get thoroughly washed.
  • "And his flesh became again like the flesh of a little child, and he was clean".

• That is a wonderful finish to this great episode! He says,
  • "Behold, I know that there is no God in all the earth but in Israel" – he has got light.

• But then we have more – we see now with Gehazi what may happen in the way of selfishness and the desire for gain. Paul speaks about it, that his own work was without any desire for gain. So Naaman said to Elisha, "I pray thee, take a present of thy servant", but Elisha refused it.

• We want to see, those of us who are serving, that we are not serving for gain. Elisha said,
  • "As Jehovah liveth, before whom I stand, I will receive none! And he urged him to take it: but he refused. And Naaman said, If not, then let there, I pray thee, be given to thy servant two mules' burden of this earth" – he felt there was virtue in it – "for thy servant will no more offer burnt-offering and sacrifice to other gods, but to Jehovah".

• He is not going to be heathen any more, he is going to get real blessing: but then what is Gehazi going to do? Naaman is a converted man we might say: he says,
  • "In this thing Jehovah pardon thy servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon … Jehovah pardon thy servant, I pray thee, in this thing".

• But now we want to see what the selfishness of Gehazi is: and we are concerned about this in our service to God and to the brethren, as to whether we are serving for gain. Gehazi is marked by downright lies and selfishness: he wants to serve for gain, against which we must all set ourselves.

• It is very solemn and ought to appeal to everybody here, especially to any who are in any way serving the Lord, that they are not doing it for any personal advantage. Elisha sets out the truth beautifully in his answer to this man.

W.W.M. Do you think that Elisha sets out the right thought of the servant in the service of God, whereas Gehazi would refer somewhat to the clerical system that has taken on this leprosy through the love of money?

J.T. That is what it is, and the apostle Paul shows that he was never governed by that, especially in 1 Corinthians 9. Perhaps you will quote a little more as to this.

W.W.M. In 1 Timothy 3: 8 it says of the ministers,

• "not seeking gain by base means":

• so that anything that is in the line of money in the service of God is a matter of great exercise.

J.T. We must all be clear of it and set our faces against it: the service of God is to go on without covetousness, for, if we are not set against it, others will be corrupted.

A.S.B. Had you the Corinthian epistles in your mind today? You quoted from chapter 1 this morning,

• "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who has been made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness, and holiness, and redemption".

• The word that you referred to came to one between the meetings, and I felt rebuked in my spirit for not responding more to the wealth of the Spirit in this book, in such passages as the end of chapter 1, and chapt