Ministry by J. Taylor
– Part Five
Prayer: Characteristic
of the Perfect Man

J.C.S. So a person might pray without the Holy Spirit and be very mixed, but what is of God will be taken account of by heaven.

J.T. The passage in Jude refers to the saints together. Of course we should all seek to pray in the Spirit. Inasmuch as we have the Spirit, we may pray in the Spirit, whether individually or collectively.

S.F. Still, it is encouraging to see heaven so attentive to a prayer like Cornelius's.

Rem. You would say that a praying brother or sister would be of great value to the assembly. I was thinking of Epaphras labouring fervently in prayer for the Colossians.

J.T. I do not know of any greater service, and it is within the range of all.

Ques. Would you say our prayer meeting is one of the most important meetings we have?

J.T. Yes. Acts 16 shows that the introduction of the gospel into Europe began with a prayer meeting. There was a place there

• "where prayer was wont to be made". Acts 16: 13.

• Then again, "as we went to prayer". Acts 16: 16.

• They were to pray collectively. Matthew 6 emphasises individual prayer:
  • "Enter into thy chamber, and, having shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret". Matthew 6: 6.

• No one can be rewarded openly – for instance, be able to pray acceptably in the assembly – unless he learns to pray to God in secret.

J.C.S. So that the Lord, in the second scripture we read, would be the Pattern. He withdrew into the wilderness.

J.T. Yes. That is what we all need to do. The next thing is, you begin to feel the great need there is, and you look abroad and see it. That is what comes out in the fifth chapter. The leper had been healed, and it says,

• "The report concerning him was spread abroad still more, and great crowds came together to hear, and to be healed from their infirmities. And he withdrew himself and was about in the desert places and praying", Luke 5: 15-16.

• The desert brings up another line. He is praying amongst the repentant remnant in the third chapter, after His baptism, and heaven opens to Him, and the Holy Spirit comes down. Heaven is restful there; but here He is in the presence of need. They come from all directions to be healed. How is this going to be met? That is what comes up in the fifth chapter, so that the Lord sets us a pattern. He withdrew.

• The fact that the multitude is there and you are there is not enough. Of course fulness is always there in the Lord, but we are speaking now of the pattern He sets us. You have to go into the desert, where there is nothing for the flesh.
  • A large congregation tends to minister to the flesh; and the platform tends to minister to the flesh. The desert is where we learn that the flesh is not respected at all.

• It says, the Lord withdrew Himself, and was without in the desert places and praying. They had come from all directions, and, instead of meeting the need, He withdrew into the desert. That is the experience that has to be gone through if we are to be effective. If the power of God is to be seen in us, we have to understand what it is to withdraw into the desert and pray.

Rem. So that one has constantly to be in the recognition that everything must come down.

J.C.S. The Lord Jesus is a Pattern of a heavenly and dependent Man in that connection, although, as you have already noted, while He was here as Man there was in Him fulness of power. He had taken the place of dependence here.

M.P.M. Would withdrawing into the desert be akin to the thought of fasting?

J.T. It shows you are determined not to feed the flesh, because a large congregation to minister to, for anyone who has ability to preach, is food for the flesh, and we have to be on our guard against it.

• The Lord had taken a place here in dependence, and He sets out the way of service. You must retire, so that the flesh may not be strengthened or ministered to.

R.J.W. The gain of it seems to be in that connection, because the report is spread abroad of His fame. He withdraws from all that.

J.T. He shows us how to avoid the snare of the devil through popularity or prominence.

A.H.R. Would what you are saying be anything like Philip? He was successful in his evangelistic work, but he is told to go down to the desert after one soul.

J.T. That is a good illustration of it.

J.C.S. Do you think that if we really laid hold of the spirit underlying all this it would draw us aside, and we would be with the Lord in all that was engaging us, so that we might have a right perspective?

J.T. Quite. The flesh is so insidious. It asserts itself on all occasions, and the Lord shows us here how we are to check it. It is not that there is anything of that in Him; it is that He graciously sets us an example.

• "He withdrew himself"

• – the pronoun is emphatic in the New Translation.

J.C.S. Heaven must have looked on with peculiar delight, as it witnessed the Lord Jesus in these conditions, seeing Him alone there.

Ques. Was not this what God had been looking for from the outset?

J.T. It says, "I have found my delight". The word 'found' is to be noted.

D.B. When the Lord came out of the desert "the Lord's power was there to heal them".

J.T. "It came to pass on one of the days that he was teaching … and the Lord's power was there to heal them", verse 17.

• The "Lord" there is Jehovah.

L.D.B. The thought of healing is very touching.

Ques. Would the Pharisees and doctors of the law illustrate the flesh – its ability, etc.?

J.T. What could put all that in its place save the power of God? Get all the education – the theological training that the seminaries are able to afford – and set that down alongside the power of God, and where is it? It is put into the shade. The power of God cannot be gainsaid, and it comes in through prayer.

• Take a man the Lord intends to use. At this time He had just revealed Himself to Peter. Peter, James and John were just fishermen. What were they against these doctors of the law and Pharisees? What were they according to the ordinary estimate of religious leaders of the world? They were nothing.

• But they were to have the power of God, which these leaders had not. The power of God was to come in, and it comes in through prayer.

J.C.S. So that a man who goes into the desert and prays learns how the Lord did things. That would be effective in the assembly and in public testimony.

R.J.W. When the Lord comes back to the need He knows how to meet it, as having been with God.

J.T. He meets it, too, in men who had repute. We have to face this, that need exists in the world, even in these doctors of the law and Pharisees. Not only were they unable to do anything, but they themselves needed help.

• Well, how are we to meet these circumstances save as we turn to God in prayer?
  • We may say we are on the right ground and have the truth; but that is not enough. The power of God is needed, and where it exists it cannot be gainsaid.

• The power of the Lord was there to heal them. It does not say they were healed by it, but it was there, and it was there through prayer.

S.F. So that having the power present is greater than the effects of the power. There will be no effect without the power.

A.H.R. Have you any thought as to the difference between the two companies, one in the 15th verse and the other in the 17th? They are two different companies.

J.T. The company in verse 17 is brought in as a test. Unless you have the power of God you come into ridicule. As to the company of verse 17 it says,

• "There were Pharisees and doctors of the law sitting by".

• They would take notice, and, you may depend, would not be slow to criticise, so that what we need is prayer to meet all this. The power of God cannot be gainsaid.

G.R.G. It says, "the power of the Lord was present to heal them". Would it magnify Christ?

J.T. It did. The grace of God is here for all men, and the doctors of the law were men, the same as others; that is the attitude to maintain. The heart of God is towards the religious dignitaries of Christendom as well as towards the common people.

Ques. Would you say power is available for every one of us?

J.T. It is. I think that is what we ought to see.

A.R.G. Do you attach importance to the conditions as well as the prayer?

J.T. Yes. Here it is "in the desert places". The flesh in us is averse to going there.

J.C.S. So that a man who prays loses confidence in himself and in everything outside of God.

J.T. I suppose that every seminary in the world makes provision for the flesh. Now the desert is the opposite of that – it makes no provision for the flesh. Religious training that makes provision for the flesh is the opposite of what we have here.

Ques. Would not the result of this be really to humble one and magnify God?

J.T. That is the thought – it brings the flesh to nothing.

Ques. A man of this kind would have power with God and men.

J.T. He would. In coming in from the desert to preach you have learned the worthlessness of the flesh. You do not commend the flesh – you do not appeal to it; it is no better in you than in anyone else.

• One who has learned to disallow the flesh in himself will not appeal to the flesh in other people; he will not say anything to influence the flesh.

A.H.R. I was wondering whether He withdrew Himself from the first company so as not to be made anything of, and the second was His test as to site.

J.T. I think that is right. These Pharisees and doctors of the law represent the religious power of Jerusalem. Still, the power of God was there even for them.

W.J.P. Would you say if we accept popularity there is no power?

J.T. We have seen it at times – one accepting popularity with the result that there was no power.

Rem. In connection with the gatherings, sometimes we have occasion to be very concerned about a certain trouble, it may be a brother taking part when he should not.

• In prayer we have an effectual remedy, for the removal of that; but we so often lose sight of the true remedy for the removal of many things, and we take our own way to remove them, and this only makes the trouble worse.

J.T. Instead of bringing God in. It says,

• "If two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be that they shall ask, it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens", Matthew 18: 19.

• Any local difficulty arising can be most effectually met thus, if there are even two that are of the assembly and they agree.

Ques. Would this incident expose to us the impossibility of fleshly ability meeting need? In the presence of the need the doctors were sitting by, and there was inability to meet it in any wise. The Lord alone can do that.

J.T. I thought verse 15 is, as has been remarked, the result of one's fame going abroad. Then the people begin to come to hear Him. The flesh in us would take advantage of that. The Lord withdraws; and then it is on one of the days after that, meaning that the Lord did not fix the day.

• It was as if any time you came to Him the power would be there. It was not a fixed meeting like this we are at now, but "one of the days" – any of them, so to speak. It is quite right we should pray and prepare for special occasions, but the thing is to be in the power at all times.

J.C.S. So the Lord Jesus was really characterised by prayer and power.

J.T. On any day you met Him the power would be there.

J.C.S. I think that is where perhaps we are so deficient; we are not always equal to the occasion.

J.T. We prepare ourselves for special occasions, which is right truly; but how am I on my ordinary days, when there is nothing special on hand?

J.C.S. It seems to me there is great encouragement in all this. It brings something within the reach of the youngest person, and one sees wonderful possibilities wrapped up in it if we are prepared to follow the pattern.

Ques. Do you suggest that the doctors of the law were delivered from the theological line and brought into dependence on God?

J.T. I do not think you can go that far. They were there: it does not say they were healed. The fact that they were doctors of the law would show that there was an element there that would be a test.

• If you got the Archbishop here and the leading clerics of the city, whatever motive underlay their coming, they would be a test to you. But the power of God cannot be gainsaid, whatever their reputation for learning might be.

Ques. Would you say the Jewish leaders missed their opportunity?

J.T. No doubt they did; but in the next verse we get

• "men bringing upon a couch a man who was paralysed",

• and they set the couch before Him. This man is going to get the blessing. It does not say the others did. There is one man going to receive the blessing; that is, you have men exercised about one. They are carrying him; they are concerned about his state, and he receives the blessing. The Lord says,
  • "But that ye may know that the Son of man has power on earth to forgive sins, he said to the paralysed man, I say to thee, Arise, take up thy little couch and go to thine house. And immediately standing up before them, having taken up that whereon he was laid, he departed to his house, glorifying God".

• That man got it; he was borne in by others, and he is sent to his own house carrying his bed.

M.P.M. Their faith and prayer were owned by the Lord.

J.T. Quite.

Ques. Do you think there is to be movement on the Lord's side in view of bringing this in at the present moment?

J.T. Well, I thought He would move in that way. The service of prayer is really as effective as any service available, and it is within the reach of all.

E.B.McC. In connection with the chapter this morning you were pointing out that the scribes and teachers of the law were with the Lord, and the power was there to heal them. I suppose they would set forth man characterised by the flesh endeavouring to carry on the service of God. Now He spends all night in prayer in order that He might send out whom He would.

J.T. The miracle in the synagogue preceding this prepares the way for it.

• "There was a man there", it says, "and his right hand was withered". Luke 6: 6.

• However much intelligence one may have, if his right hand is withered he can do nothing. The right hand denotes a man's ability or power, so that it would suggest what there is in the synagogue – what there is in the religious world. As it says,
  • "Looking round about upon them all, he said unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he did so; and his hand was restored whole as the other", Luke 6: 10.

• There you have the preparation for the prayer; one's right hand restored indicates his ability for service. There may be many who have ability for service – the Lord has given it to them; but the next thing is that He should dispose of that.

J.C.S. Do you think the disciples who had been with Him up to this time had had, so to speak, their right hands restored? That is, their hands were really being prepared in view of service, and now the Lord spends a whole night in prayer to God in view of that selection.

J.T. That is it. There are many who have ability, but the next thing is they should come under the Lord's direction.

Rem. Would you say that such conditions can be met only by prayer –

• "He continued all night in prayer"?

J.T. We shall be in each other's way, unless we come under the Lord's direction.

E.B.McC. The hand would then be at the Lord's disposal.

J.T. That is it. All your power or ability for service is held now for the Lord, and He disposes of it; otherwise we shall be in each other's way. He makes the selection.

J.C.S. So that the Lord in that way recognises the existing ability.

J.T. He recognises the ability that there is. It is seen here in the man's withered hand being restored. It is to be used, but then how used? Therefore it says,

• "God has set certain in the assembly". 1 Corinthians 12: 28.

• God has done it. We have to look to the Lord for the disposal of the ability there is, that it should be used to the best possible advantage. It can be used thus only as He disposes of it.

• The matter was so serious that He spent all night in prayer. This is the only instance in which we have the Lord spending all night in prayer. It says,
  • "He went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God".

• We have often spoken of long prayers as inimical to liberty in the assembly. I believe they should be short in the assembly, but this passage shows you can make them as long as a whole night individually. No one could spend his nights to better advantage, especially if sleepless nights, than in prayer.

S.F. I would suggest, too, that this dispensation should be marked by prayer; it is the dispensation of God, which is in faith, and so prayer should be constantly going up to God, showing dependence upon Him.

J.T. I think that is what is emphasised in Luke.

J.C.S. One is impressed with the way in which the Lord Jesus depends absolutely on heaven in connection with. His selection. That is – one hardly likes to say it – but it almost suggests that He wants to trust entirely to heaven for the selection.

J.T. You may be assured that it is set down here not only to show how entirely dependent He was, but that we should be dependent.

• It is all very well to say that such a brother has gift, and preaches beautifully, but you want to see him disposed of so that he is available to the best advantage to the saints. He has to come under the Lord's direction if he is to continue to be profitable, and hence we must bring him to the Lord.

Rem. Would you say continuing all night in prayer to God involves a knowledge of God? I think of how little some of us can sustain prayer in that way.

J.T. We lack an extended view. Our outlook is very narrow. As we think of the Lord's service the whole field should be before us. It says, He bought the field; and He has a right-of-way in it in that He has bought it.

• So that the whole field is before one if interested in this way, and you can easily spend a night, if you are disposed to, in going over the field, touching on the different points in which active work is proceeding.

Rem. I thought if we knew more of priesthood we should be able to pray more in the way that is true of the priest; he had the saints on his heart. Perhaps it would depend on how much we have the saints on our hearts.

• I had in mind to refer to the thought of the right hand in Ecclesiastes. It says,
  • "A wise man's heart is at his right hand". Ecclesiastes 10: 2.

J.T. This gospel has priesthood in view.

Ques. Is there another thought connected with the mountain? Would that give a good view of the field?

J.T. You are withdrawn from the influences of the plain; but it is in view of coming back into the plain, as the passage states. If you are to be with God you must be withdrawn from the influence of the plain.

• Moses was with Jehovah on the mountain, Aaron was with the people. Hence the great difference between them. Aaron was employed by the people in making an idol; whereas Moses, as with God, was able to come in and destroy the idol, and make the people drink of the water.

M.P.M. It states later, "having descended with them he stood on a level place", verse 17; that would be the contrast.

J.C.S. You were speaking of the vastness of the field, and how the Lord would enlist our interests in it, that we might pray sympathetically and intelligently in regard to all that He has under His eye to do.

• Thus, as you say, we would bring the servants to the Lord for the disposal of them; and if He disposes of them there will be no overlapping.

Ques. How do we bring them? Is it assemblies that bring them, or those who are exercised?

J.T. We all should be concerned, and so we shall pray individually and collectively.

E.B.McC. Do you think the prayer that the Lord may send forth labourers into the harvest always holds good?

J.T. I am sure it does; and I think the Lord would impress it upon us now. The need is great.

R.J.W. Is it not interesting that in the next chapter He sends out the very ones whose hearts He set in the line of prayer? He works through their hearts.

J.T. You see Saul; he corresponds with chapter 3, as we had it this morning, as becoming identified with the people of God; he is praying.

• But then, as with the disciples in Damascus, he begins to preach. There is nothing about a commission as yet. I mean, there is nothing said as to his being told to preach in Damascus, but he did preach. In this way he corresponds to chapter 5.

• He sees the need, and, as he tells us later, he went into Arabia. Arabia would correspond with the desert in Luke 5. The desert was the place for the practical annulment of the flesh in him.

• We find he is sought out by Barnabas, who saw the need. He was a good man, and full of the Holy Spirit. He represents one who would unjealously think of the needs of the saints, and that they should be met by others as well as by himself. So, knowing of the conditions at Antioch, he goes and seeks out Saul.

• Doubtless he had prayed about it; he brings him to Antioch, as if he felt that he was a brother who would be used at Antioch. He and Saul laboured together at Antioch for a year, and yet there is no commission. Barnabas sees the need, and he gets Saul. Then the call comes:
  • "Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them", Acts 13: 2.

• I believe that as we look around and see the ability there is, and bring it to the Lord, we shall have a disposition of it such as will be effective in the maintenance of the ministry and in meeting the need of the saints.

Ques. Do you make a difference between the call of the servants and sending them forth by the Spirit as in Acts 13?

J.T. Yes. The call in the apostle's case was earlier; he had to wait for his direct commission.

E.B.McC. Your thought is that Barnabas recognises the ability that was with Saul – that he had been prepared for the service?

J.T. I think he corresponds with the man whose right hand is healed. Now he is available for the disposition of the Lord or of the Spirit.

Ques. Do you think the synagogue is purely local, whereas the Lord has the world before Him? Saul preached in the synagogues.

J.T. That is good, because levitical service is never restricted to a locality. The Levites were round about the tabernacle. The other tribes had special locations allotted to them at a distance – east, west, north and south, but the Levites were round about the tabernacle. Their service is general – it is universal.

J.R. Do you suggest that the multitude come into blessing on account of the Lord spending all night in prayer, and afterwards calling to Himself His disciples whom He names apostles?

J.T. Quite. You see, He calls them out according to the wisdom that would flow from prayer. Of course He was Himself Wisdom, but here He is dependent, and He is a pattern. He is praying to God all night, and so He names them, as it says,

• "When it was day he called his disciples, and having chosen out twelve from them, whom also he named apostles".

• He names them in the order in which He intended them to serve. Peter comes first; that is a question of choice.

L.D.B. If things are held by one person only – one servant – they remain within restricted limits, whereas the number is increased here to twelve – the sphere of divine operations is extended.

J.T. That is what comes out. Then He comes down with them. It says,

• "having descended with them, He stood on a level place".

• Now He has, so to say, twelve right hands under His own direction, and then He comes down with them to the level place. They are safe, as coming down to the level place as appointed, and thus accompanied by the Lord.

J.C.S. So you think the Lord indicates here, in the order of the names, that He is arranging their service. They are to serve in that connection; that is, it is not left for them to arrange for themselves.

J.T. I think He has indicated their work in the order of the names. In Luke it appears the reading should be as it is in the Authorised Version, the conjunction between each name. They are not set out in twos, as in Matthew.

L.D.B. What is the thought in that, that they are severally mentioned?

J.T. I think it is that each one is to take up his own service in relation to the Lord.

E.B.McC. These were men of ability for service.

J.T. Quite. Luke has in mind the whole dispensation under Paul's ministry, and the suggestion is that those who serve are selected severally.

• I receive my work from the Lord directly, and carry it out without consulting another. Of course we are not to be independent of each other.

J.C.S. That is, to your own master you stand or fall; that is the principle.

J.T. Yes.

M.P.M. Service is thus individual, but not independent.

J.T. No, not independent; but each has to get his direction from the Lord, and carry it out.

J.C.S. So that the Lord did not allow Peter to interfere with what John was doing, as you pointed out.

J.T. That helps. "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me". John 21: 22:

• Peter had his work laid out for him, and it was for him to do it. The Lord had His reserve in John, and He would maintain the secret.

L.D.B. I suppose our prayers should be in accord with what the Lord has done. In praying for the Lord's servants one would pray that what He has given to His servants might be developed; that each might correspond with the name that has been given to him.

J.C.S. I suppose there was development in the twelve. The Lord names each one, as you have remarked elsewhere, but development has taken place morally before it is officially recognised.

J.T. Yes; the withered hand restored points to the ability for service which they had.

J.C.S. I think you wanted to call our attention to the fact that it is open to us individually to take these matters up with God in prayer so that the whole field of His operations might be of interest to us, that we might pray to the Lord for an increase on these lines.

J.T. That is what comes out in this chapter, and it should enter into our prayer meetings as well as our individual prayers, because the field is one. In moving about one hears prayers, and one notices the limitations that appear. How narrow our field often is!

• Of course it is right that we should pray for our immediate locality, but a priest has all on his heart. The High Priest had the names of all, and Aaron's sons would obviously have the opportunity of reading the breastplate as they were with their father.

• So the nearer we are to the Lord the wider will be our view of the field. He would bring the whole field before us. One would be as much concerned about South Africa as he would be about New Zealand, because it is all the Lord's field. The saints are all alike in that they are all in the breastplate, and every son of Aaron would be concerned as to all the tribes.

• It is very interesting to see that in the book of Judges, in the darkest period, when Benjamin was about to be almost wiped out, it is said that Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, was priest, and stood before the ark in those days. What an immense advantage it was for Israel to have a priest like that.

• At that time, in the darkest day, he would be greatly concerned about Benjamin, for his name was in the breastplate. It had its place as much as Reuben's or Ephraim's. So that the more we understand priesthood the more we should be in prayer for the whole field of the Lord's interest.

S.F. As you have remarked, through the death of Christ He has made a right-of-way into every part. So that where there is just a little garden, or cluster of saints, that locality is of personal interest to Christ.

J.T. That is what I was thinking; and how easily one may be of service. After the assemblies had been formed, Paul proposed to Barnabas to visit the cities where they had preached the word to see the brethren – to see how they had got on

• He and Silas went and visited their brethren, but there is nothing said about teaching or preaching; there is nothing said about the exercise of gift at all in that journey. It was a question of seeing their countenances.
  • "Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend". Proverbs 27: 17.

• Hence the visit of a spiritual brother or sister to a locality has an effect, and the service is brought within the range of all. There is not a word said of the exercise of gift in the missionary journey of Paul with Silas until new ground was reached at Philippi.

• It was more that Paul's presence amongst them encouraged them. It says,
  • "The assemblies, therefore, were confirmed in the faith, and increased in number every day", Acts 16: 5.

S.F. When the Lord Jesus moved in and out among His disciples He would leave a deep impression on them, even apart from His words.

Ques. You drew our attention to verse 17 (Luke 6):

• "Having descended with them, he stood on a level place".

• Could you help us a little on that?

J.T. The "level place" means that in carrying the glad tidings to men you would get down to where they are. Paul says,

• "To all I have become all things". 1 Corinthians 9: 22.

• In order to reach souls we have to get to where they are.

E.B.McC. Giving the apostles names was His sovereign choice, but now He could come down with them to the level where men are.

J.T. And He can identify Himself with them now before men. They are His qualified representatives.

J.C.S. Do you think He is, in principle, doing now to them what heaven had recently done in regard to Himself?

J.T. Just so; and it raises the question whether the Lord can really be with me in my service here.

• "He came down with them".

• Can the Lord stand beside me in my service? If He cannot, there is something that is inconsistent with Him.

E.B.McC. It takes some of us so long to be healed. We are not qualified for service.

J.T. And many of us are mixed up with associations the Lord cannot approve of; thus He cannot be with us; He cannot identify Himself with us save as we are in correspondence with Him in our principles and ways.

J.R.F. Before entering on the level place with Him we must be on the mountain with Him, and then we can maintain what is suitable to the levitical position on the level place.

J.T. So coming down is the idea in the gospel.

J.R. In connection with your thought about where men are – do not the multitude come under His influence?

J.T. Quite. You see how it was carried out in Paul, in coming into Antioch of Pisidia, for example. He entered into the synagogue and sat down. He was, as it were, a Jew in the synagogue, but Christ was in his heart. Think of what was in that man's heart as he sat there, ostensibly an ordinary Jew!

• Presently they invite him to speak. He acts wisely. He, as it were, was on the plain; and now he is invited to speak, and he speaks the word.

• When he came to Thessalonica, he entered in among them as if he were one of them, and for three Sabbath days he reasoned with them out of the Scriptures. We learn from these things how to carry on service for the Lord.

R.T. What was your thought in Paul and Silas visiting the saints; was it on the line of house to house?

J.T. No doubt they would go from house to house. They visited the cities where assemblies had been formed.

J.C.S. Paul knew well how to take these things up. No matter what the circumstances were, he knew how to adapt himself to them in divine power.

J.T. So at Athens he goes about the city and takes note of things, and he saw their shrines. In order to serve God among men we have to take account of what is going on amongst them.

• His spirit was painfully excited in him in seeing how the city was wholly given up to idolatry. He read the inscriptions on the altars, and so forth. He said,
  • "I found also an altar on which was inscribed, To the unknown God", Acts 17: 23.

• There is instruction for us in seeking to serve men. We have to take account of what they are going on with, because in that way you learn what they need, and how they are to be delivered.

• He identifies himself with them as a man; to the Jews he became a Jew, and to the Greeks he was a man, or one of the race. So he says,
  • "In him we live, and move, and have our being".

  • "He is not far from each one of us". Acts 17: 27-28.

Ques. Does the level place suggest that the Jew is now on no better footing than the Gentile?

J.T. No. He was recognised at the outset as the "Jew first", but after the apostle Paul visited Rome I think the position is changed. It says,

• "The salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and they will hear it". Acts 28: 28.

E.B.McC. So we would find much room if we were in the right state to be used.

J.T. The need is unspeakable. The Lord is saying, as it were, 'Whom shall we send?' In answer to this, it is a question of what ability there may be. The Lord will dispose of it if it is available.

• The idea of a Levite is that he is given to the priests – to Aaron and his sons – for service. They are to be for the Lord's disposition.

W.J.P. You do not confine that to ministers, do you?

J.T. No; it is for every saint.

L.D.B. In chapter 9 the Lord inquires, "Who do the crowds say that I am?" This was as He prayed.

J.T. I think that in chapter 9 in connection with the prayer we have just read, we have what follows on constructively with the appointment of the ministers. That is, in serving we need to be assured as to the Person of Christ.

• We need to be well grounded in the knowledge of who He is, because the erroneous thoughts that are abroad are dreadful; and, obviously, the Lord praying alone has in view that we should know who He is; not only who He is officially, because that is indicated in chapter 6, but who He is personally.

E.B.McC. If He is with us in the plain we must be assured as to who He is.

J.T. This question that is raised in chapter 9 is of immense importance now, because of the wicked doctrines that are promulgated in Christendom about the Lord Jesus. If we would serve aright we must be very clear in our souls who He is; and I think His praying alone would be in view of this.

J.C.S. What do you mean by 'knowing Him personally'?

J.T. It says here, "And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him; and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am? They answering said, John the baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again. He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God", verses 18-20.

• He had the light.

Ques. Is that light got from personal intercourse with the Lord?

J.T. I think it is. In this gospel there is nothing said about a revelation in this connection.

• I think Peter had discovered it. No doubt it refers to the revelation he had. According to Matthew it is not so presented. There the Father made a revelation to Peter.

• But here it is as if Peter said, 'You are the anointed vessel for God's service of grace – the Christ of God'.

J.C.S. Would it be a just inference, since Luke so constantly presents Him to us in that praying attitude, that Peter picks up who He is largely through His prayers; that as He is alone praying he gets to know who He is personally through seeing His intercourse with God?

J.T. Well, I think that is a just inference.

D.B. It was not information about facts with Peter; it was personal acquaintance with Him.

J.T. The evidence that He was the Anointed of God was there. Things were done according to God. Peter says to Cornelius, that God

• "anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power". Acts 10: 38.

M.P.M. It says later, "As he prayed, the fashion of his countenance became different". Luke 29: 9.

• The disciples would take account of that.

J.C.S. I notice, too, in Luke, where the sower operates, the "seed" is the word of God.

J.T. Yes, Luke presents God – God in grace; and God has now One who is anointed to set out His grace. That is what Peter says.

• In Mark it is "The Christ" – the One who does everything;

• but here it is "The Christ of God". That God has One who does everything, and does it according to His mind.

W.J.P. In John 6: 68 Peter says, "Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life".

J.T. His confession is in keeping with John's gospel. He had "words of eternal life". It is not that He had simply spoken them, but He had them; and He was the Holy One of God. Here He is "the Christ of God".

S.F. He was a man here in ordinary daily circumstances, moving absolutely for God's pleasure. All His consideration was that way, and through doing so He met perfectly whatever came before Him. Would you agree with that?

J.T. Just so; and now the apostles are to know this. He would bring out from them the confession of who He was.

Rem. It says they were with Him as He was "praying alone". In chapter 6 He descended with them to the level place.

J.T. They are with Him; seeing Him "praying alone" would give them an apprehension of what He was with God.

• John says, "We have contemplated His glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a Father", John 1: 14.

• They would see that; they contemplated Him. In Luke He is with the servants, who had been serving very successfully, and in successful service we are apt to get our eyes turned on ourselves; hence this question, "Whom say ye that I am?"

• If He is the One who is doing everything for God, the little I am doing is not of much account. I am just a vessel or instrument for His use.

A.H.R. So we get here God's Anointed.

J.T. Yes; and the servants, however successful, are to have this before them. He is doing the work.

J.C.S. So that the next time they stretched forth the right hand in service they would be in the sense of who He is.

J.T. That is just the point. They had been successful; but now they were to understand that the work was really His work – it was He who was doing it.

J.C.S. Sometimes we are hindered by allowing our service to assume too great proportions in our minds. It becomes everything to us, and we really lose sight of the fact that it is Christ who should be everything to us.

J.T. That is the thing to get hold of.

D.B. Would ability to feed the crowd indicate who He was?

J.T. I think so. Peter had doubtless acquired the knowledge of who He was through observing what He was doing.

W.J.P. You remarked that it was necessary to have an impression at the prayer meeting before you preached the gospel. Is this the way to acquire confidence as to addressing God?

J.T. No one should attempt to address men who has not first addressed God, because you acquire your power there.

A.H.R. With regard to the servants, are there not two sides – one being occupied with service, and the other being timid owing to lack of faith, and thus not being able to take up service?

J.T. That was the case with Timothy. He was timid. He had to rekindle the gift that was in him. Many have ability, and are not using it.

F.H. The thing to recognise is that the Lord has a claim upon us. In restoring the man's hand the Lord was establishing His claim for the service of that hand. He that has power to restore the hand has power to direct it in service.

J.T. And then in the service there is sure to be success if the Lord is supporting you; but the danger in successful service is to be so occupied as to accredit yourself with it. Paul speaks of the things that Christ had wrought by him. What he had done was Christ's work. He says,

• "From Jerusalem, and in a circuit round to Illyricum, I have fully preached the glad tidings of the Christ", Romans 15: 19.

• Who had preached? It was Christ; as he says,
  • "Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me". 2 Corinthians 13: 3.

• It was Christ, and that is what makes ministry so serious. If it is taken up as presented in Scripture the minister represents Christ. Paul further says,
  • "Coming, he has preached the glad tidings of peace to you who were afar off, and the glad tidings of peace to those who were nigh", Ephesians 2: 17.

J.C.S. One's service would be on the line of distinguishing Christ; it would be as of one anointed.

Rem. So it is easy to detect true ministry; it calls attention to Him.

J.T. It does. The hearers are impressed; it has come from God.

R.J.W. In chapter 9, when He handed back the child, they wondered at the glorious greatness of God, and in the case of the demoniac, they confessed how great things God had done.

J.T. We can see how the Lord "praying alone" impressed those with Him. Peter confessed Him

• "The Christ of God".

L.D.B. The praying would emphasise that He – the Anointed One – was drawing upon God.

Ques. Would "The Christ of God" indicate the dignity of the service?

J.T. I think it does. Think of what we are connected with, even at this present time! It is the work of the Lord. The Christ of God is carrying it on; He is doing it.

• We are all more or less instrumental, but it is His doing; and anyone who receives benefit receives it from the Christ of God. God is the Source of all blessings, and Christ is Mediator; but He is the Anointed Mediator, and all blessing comes to us in that way.

J.C.S. If we see that the Lord is really behind the servants, and He is working through them, it takes away any feeling of rivalry.

J.T. It conveys the sense of dignity. We are dealing with very great things. However restricted outwardly, it is no less than the work of the Christ. The anointing is on it, and the anointing involves moral weight and distinction.

E.B.McC. It would imply assembly formation, and headship would be known.

In chapter 9, after they had been successful in their ministry as sent out, they return. The multitudes have to be fed, and the Lord puts it upon them to feed them. But it comes out that they could not, and this brings in a fresh glory of Christ. He feeds the multitudes.

• Then He raises the question with them as to who the multitudes said He was; following this with the question,
  • "But whom say ye that I am".

  • Peter says, "The Christ of God". Luke 9: 20.

• In Peter's confession the light is there; the Christ is there; so that the workmen humbly take their places under Him. What is done is done by Him; a very important and salutary lesson, for it keeps us lowly, and saves us from pride.

The next instance is in the passage read in chapter 9, where He is seen on high praying, these three disciples being present; and what comes out is that He becomes altered or different.

• What suggests itself is that the believer, in his progress, corresponds at this point as apprehending the heavenly – he is different. His service now is carried on in a different way; he is no longer on the level of ordinary religious activity – he is different.

• In other words, as having thus progressed, we are actuated by heavenly principles and manners in our service. I think it well to link it all up, so that we may have the thing clearly before us, and get the teaching of this passage in chapter 11.

• It is not that we should become Quakers or monks. Christianity involves a difference from all that is of this world:
  • "As is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly", 1 Corinthians 15: 48,

• and this enters into our walk; ways, and service in this world.

A.H.R. Is it on the line of "beholding the glory of the Lord", 2 Corinthians 3: 18, you are changed from glory to glory?

J.T. It is that line. So you have here Moses and Elias, who, appearing in glory, speak with Him. It would bear out your thought – they appear in glory. The heavenly element, entering into our position here, involves a change; in fact Christianity is established on the ground of the light of Ephesians; hence what follows is coloured by what is seen here.

R.J.W. Would there be an indication of what was new and heavenly in the fact that it was eight days after?

J.T. Yes; eight is a change – a new point of departure.

Ques. Is it necessary to be in an elevated position to take account of it? It is only there it is seen.

J.T. I think so. It is said, "God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us … hath raised us up together and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus", Ephesians 2: 4-6; so that we come out as heavenly.

M.P.M. The difference is seen very markedly in Saul. He was changed from being an insolent, overbearing man, to one who was characterised by prayer.

R.J.W. Do you suggest that as you pray you take on these features?

J.T. Well, I think at this stage of your progress the thought of the heavenly comes in. It is not at the outset, although the light may be there; but the time arrives when you take on the heavenly.

J.C.S. So that when you take on the heavenly it will impart tone and character to all that you are and all you do.

J.T. There are some textures that will not take on certain colours. I think the Christian texture should take on a good blue – the heavenly colour.

Rem. And your preaching would come out in that way?

J.T. Yes; you begin now to present things differently.

A.H.R. You come to God in prayer, and you obtain the heavenly colour – the blue, and you come out in it.

J.T. That is what I understand; the texture is prepared for that. The believer's life is like a web of cloth. Principles are laid down.

• Principles are the warp in the piece; they are laid out the whole length. The weft is woven in bit by bit; it is, as it were, a hand-loom – the shuttle acts this way and that way constantly.

• Romans prepares for what is heavenly. Romans lays out the principles, and then you begin to weave in, and gradually you begin to take on the colour – to take on a good dye; because it has to enter into the whole piece – the warp and the weft.

J.C.S. So Romans brings in all that establishes one on the line of recovery, but you have not yet come to the reception of what is Ephesian truth exactly.

J.T. That is it.

Ques. And would Romans bring you to Ephesians?

J.T. It prepares for Ephesians; so the apostle speaks of the mystery which had been hid during the ages. He desires that the Roman Christians should be established according to it.

J.C.S. Do I catch the thought that this heavenly thing that is being introduced is really a process?

J.T. That is what I think. At this point of your progress as a believer you go in for what is heavenly, and that enters into local responsibility.

• Chapters 10 and 11 deal with the testimony in localities, and that must be heavenly. Local furnishings, which we may see in chapter 11, correspond to heaven.

• It is a question of the Lord going into the cities and places, and preparation being made for it. He appoints seventy, and sends them out two and two into every city and place whither He Himself would come, so that there should be conditions in each city and place suitable for Him.

Rem. So what you put on can be taken account of.

J.T. Yes; the furnishings are according to heaven.

R.J.W. Is that why Luke emphasises the thought of shining – what is heavenly is shown?

J.T. So we have two men in shining garments at the end of Luke's gospel. And here His raiment is "white and effulgent".

Rem. Would you say we get it on the line of contemplation?

J.T. I think we do. "We all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image". 2 Corinthians 3: 18.

• The glory of the Lord is involved in the question,
  • "Whom say ye that I am?" Luke 9: 20.

• The knowledge of the Lord leads to the change.

J.C.S. So that the Lord Jesus comes in here again as a pattern. If we think of Him intrinsically, there is no change; but He is there as pattern for us.

J.T. That is what I thought.

L.D.B. Following up the thought of Romans, would Peter and James and John stand for those who have reached this point?

J.T. I think that He selects those who would be, so to speak, capable of taking on the heavenly colour. He knew them, and He intended that they should reflect all they saw. As Peter says,

• "We have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eye witnesses of his majesty.

  "For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory. This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

  "And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount", 2 Peter 1: 16-18.

• They were with Him so that the effect of the vision should be reflected in them. He knew what they could take on, although apparently they then acted very poorly. Nevertheless the result came out later.

J.C.S. So it was the Lord Jesus who went up to pray. He took them with Him that they might witness all that was transpiring, and take it on.

J.T. Yes, that is it; they came to it afterwards.

S.F. Peter understood it much more later when he wrote his epistle, and refers to it then; but the impression remained with him from this time forward.

J.T. He speaks in his epistles of an unfading inheritance reserved in the heavens for us; and goes on to say that the gospel is preached by the Holy Spirit come down from heaven.

• Then, in chapter 2, he links it on beautifully with Paul's doctrine governing local assemblies by calling the attention of the Jews of the dispersion to what they were.
  • "To whom coming", he says, "as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God and precious, ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ", 1 Peter 2: 4-5.

• He was separating them from Jerusalem, and setting them up in a spiritual way in what they were themselves; they were a spiritual house. All that links up with what we may see in Luke 10 and 11.

• Here local furnishings must take on the heavenly, and be independent of metropolitan centres. Peter's epistle teaches the saints that they are independent of earthly metropolitan centres.

J.C.S. So that the local assembly should be the repository of what is heavenly. Heavenly conditions should be found there, and heavenly furnishings, as you have remarked.

L.D.B. Would you say a little more about Peter's epistle? How does he show that there is nothing metropolitan on earth now for the Lord, and that the heavenly is in view?

J.T. I link it on with his service as recorded in Acts 9. After Paul was converted Peter seemed to discern the new point of departure. It says,

• "Peter, passing through all quarters",

• and coming down to Lydda, raised up Aeneas, and says to him,
  • "rise up, and make thy couch for thyself", Acts 9: 34.

• There I think we have a plain intimation that he discerned that God was about to abandon Jerusalem. It took some time to do it, but the principle was laid down in his word to Aeneas that saints in different localities must learn to make their beds for themselves.

• Then he raises up Tabitha, and presents her alive to the widows and those who were mourning for her.

• Hence you have one who can make one's bed for oneself; and then, in Tabitha, the energy of life in localities; so that his epistle amplifies these principles.

• He brings in the heavenly instead of occupying the Jews of the dispersion with Jerusalem or the earthly promises. He speaks about an inheritance in heaven unfading and undefiled, and says they were begotten again to a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and that they were
  • "kept by the power of God through faith", 1 Peter 1: 5.

• Then he goes on to speak about the Spirit coming down from heaven as the power of ministry. Then he says,
  • "as newborn babes desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby", 1 Peter 2: 2.

• It was a thing to grow up to. That would free them from the system at Jerusalem. Following on this, he says,
  • "To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, ye also, as lively stones are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ", 1 Peter 2: 4-5.

• In all that, it seems to me, he detaches their minds from Jerusalem, where the visible temple was, and corroborates Paul's ministry, which set up local companies officially, and calls them
  • "assemblies of God".

G.R.G. The source of all that light was heaven. Peter was an eye-witness "of his majesty". 2 Peter 1: 16.

J.T. All that enters into it. He goes on to say at the end,

• "She that is elected with you in Babylon salutes you, and Marcus my son", 1 Peter 5: 13.

• He links up, it seems to me, the east (that is Babylon – the work of God there) with the west, unifying the work of God.

J.C.S. That was only possible by bringing in the heavenly. So long as things were attached to Jerusalem the possibility of break-up was there, but the transfer of the centre to heaven brought about a permanent result.

J.T. The heavenly element now began to assert itself. In Acts 9 a light from heaven came to Paul; and in chapter 10 a sheet from heaven came to Peter. All that enters into Peter's ministry.

• The metropolis was transferred to heaven, and it remained in heaven.
  • "Jerusalem above … is our mother".

J.T. He knew them. Peter and James and John were evidently more spiritual than the others. They were taken into Jairus' house when the little girl was raised up. So I think we are reminded here that we are privileged according to our progress.

R.J.W. Then do you suggest that as we reach a certain point in our soul's history we correspond to this?

J.T. That is what I was endeavouring to emphasise. At this point you begin to take on the heavenly; you want the heavenly because it is better.

R.J.W. There was a great change in Job after he judged himself.

J.T. Quite. All this is instruction, involving a change in us. The heavenly colour enters in, I think, to the teaching of chapters 10 and 11.

• That is the idea of a place suitable for the Lord in the end of chapter 9. It says,
  • "It came to pass, when the days of his receiving up were fulfilled", Luke 9: 51.

• The time was arriving when He would be received up into heaven, where everything is in keeping with Him. But in the meantime He was going to visit cities and places, hence He sends messengers before Him, as it were, to prepare.

• So that in praying in a certain place He had in mind that that place should be furnished. It refers obviously to the need of furnishing in it, because He had been to Bethany, to the house of Martha, and, although He was received, the furnishings were not just right.

• Martha did not reflect just what was heavenly; things were not altogether right there. Hence one would look around in one's locality and see how much the conditions correspond to heaven, because the Lord is heavenly. He is in heavenly surroundings, and is entitled to something like heavenly surroundings on earth as He comes.

J.C.S. So that when He comes the surroundings would be agreeable to Him. There would be no discomfort, so to speak; all would be according to Him.

A.H.R. If we got hold of that it would be an immense thing for our spirits, would it not?

J.T. Surely. In the beginning of chapter 10 it says, He chose seventy, and sent them

• "two and two before his face into every city and place where he himself was about to come", verse 1.

• That has a meaning beyond what is literal; it has a meaning for us. If one goes as a representative into a locality, the Lord follows him up; and it is a question of what He finds.

• Take Luther's ministry – wonderful energy of the Spirit, but the Lord would follow that up. What did He find? What was the result of that movement ecclesiastically for the Lord? There were not assembly conditions as far as we know.

• So with everyone who represents the Lord in ministry; the Lord follows you up, and what does He find as the result of your ministry?

R.J.W. Do you think then the objective is the assembly? Your works are not complete until that objective is reached and the furnishing brought in.

J.T. That is what I think is found in service – "I have not found thy works perfect before God", Revelation 3: 2.

• There were works and conversions and much done in Sardis, but the work was not complete. There were no furnishings locally for the Lord.

• Take the Lutheran church of Germany, and the churches of England and Scotland, and then the establishment in Switzerland and France, and the later off-shoots in English-speaking countries; what do they afford for the Lord?

G.R.G. Do you think it is suggested that the messengers were not successful in these villages?

J.T. You see that in a city of the Samaritans. It was not to the discredit of the messengers, because a national feeling was there of rivalry between Samaria and Jerusalem, and there was no reception of the Lord at all.

Rem. Does anything take place before they go out two by two? The Holy Spirit goes before them, as it were.

J.T. We get the Holy Spirit in chapter 11. It is another consideration, because the Holy Spirit is the solution of all this.

• The Holy Spirit is really the means whereby local conditions are brought about that are acceptable to heaven. You cannot have it without the Spirit. Hence He says,
  • "Much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him", Luke 11: 13.

• That is the solution, but I don't think any of these systems which I referred to have made room for the Spirit; hence the assembly is lost to view, and there are no suitable local furnishings.

E.B.McC. You might point out what you mean by furnishings.

J.T. It means that I have a peep into heaven, and get to know something about what the living conditions of the Lord are.

• To use a figure: I have some idea of Buckingham Palace; anyone of us who has been to London knows that is where the king lives with his family.

• Now, the living conditions in the house of the king's representative in this Dominion would, be, in some sense, a reflex of that. If the king were to come to Wellington he would go there, because that is the idea; it is a reflex of his own living conditions.

• Paul's ministry enables us to understand what is heavenly, and local conditions must correspond in some sense to what is in heaven.

E.B.McC. Then it must be borne in mind that we are heavenly?

J.T. Yes, indeed. "As is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly", 1 Corinthians 15: 48.

• I think the Lord, as He prayed in a certain place, had in mind that there should be others in that place suitable. Hence the disciples say to Him,
  • "Teach us to pray".

• This is the first time we get that. It does not say, 'Teach me to pray'. We have been on the line of the individual; now we come to the collective. It is the question of the saints in a locality learning how to pray there.

J.C.S. So that Buckingham Palace would really be the model for the Government House here. We become, in that way, acquainted with what is in heaven and what is heavenly; the local assembly is patterned after that.

J.T. That is what I had in mind. Now you have the added thought here of place – He was praying in a certain place. He had already said they were to go before His face into every place whither He Himself would come.

• Martha received Him to her house, but she was not heavenly. There are many of us perhaps who are not heavenly, and we are ready to receive the Lord only on our own terms, so to speak.

• It is one thing to go into a man's house on his own terms, but another thing for him to receive you on your terms; in the latter you are much freer and happier.

• Now Martha did not receive the Lord on His own terms. I doubt whether she knew Him rightly. She would have Him bring Mary into accord with her. There was no question of Mary being suitable to the Lord. In other words, it is like a brother in the meeting wishing the whole meeting to be brought into accord with him, which is often the case.

J.C.S. In Martha's house the Lord found something that was really foreign to heaven.

J.T. I can understand the Lord turning aside into one of the rooms and praying for that place. That seems the only solution of it – praying for Martha because the conditions are not right. It does not say so here, but it is the thing carried forward. He was praying in a certain place. He had just been to Bethany.

W.J.P. Would you say there were mixed conditions?

J.T. Martha received Him into her house; she was the responsible one, but Mary was of a very different spiritual calibre. It is a very good type of a meeting; a very good example perhaps of all our meetings.

R.J.W. Would the result be seen a little later in the place where there was a large upper room furnished?

J.T. You get that further on. It is a question of the furnishing here. So there is the praying in a certain place, it may be in Wellington or any place. If things are not right that is the way to deal with the matter.

S.F. In a way, Martha was holding the reins. Mary's submission suggests she had surrendered everything to Him.

J.C.S. So you would impress us with the necessity of being acquainted with what is in heaven, that in our localities we might place ourselves in relation to it.

J.T. That is the thought. I think Luke has, in the main, public conditions in view, conditions in keeping with heaven, because that is what was to mark the assembly.

A.H.R. Do you think the heavenly conditions mentioned were brought about in the house when Lazarus was raised? All were in their places then.

J.T. The Lord came in there and manifested His glory; the result in Bethany is seen in John 12. But He wants to show from this occurrence here that the solution of this is by the Spirit.

Rem. What comes out of heaven goes back there.

J.T. Yes, the Spirit has come out of heaven; that is what you get in verse 13:

• "How much rather shall the Father who is of heaven".

• It is not in heaven. It is not going to heaven, but bringing heavenly conditions down.
  • "Who is of heaven, give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him".

• There it is the plural – not 'him', but "them". I think it is collective.

Ques. So heavenly conditions furnish the house for the Lord's presence?

J.T. That is the thing. It is not that He will not come without them, because He came into Martha's house, and there was nothing much about her then that was heavenly; but you want Him to come and find conditions entirely congenial to Him.

• He may come, it may be in a judicial character, and then He has to rebuke us, taking a judge's character towards us.

J.C.S. I take it that what you have been drawing our attention to is in order that these conditions might be planted in the hearts of the brethren in the various localities, so that the Lord is really at home amongst them.

J.T. That is it. He is praying in the place; He gives the lead, as it were, and the disciples were glad to take advantage of it; so one said, "Teach us to pray". Then the Lord immediately says,

• "When ye pray, say, Father".

• It is not, 'our Father in heaven'; that is not Luke's line. He wants to set us up in liberty. When you pray say,
  • "Father, thy name be hallowed".

• You want conditions suitable to that name: "thy name be hallowed".
  • "Thy kingdom come".

• These are the features of prayer that He teaches us in this passage.

S.F. "Father" conveys what is general. As you have remarked, it is "Father". Sometimes it is "our Father".

J.T. In this passage I think it is the liberty we have with God. The Lord sets us up in liberty with God, so we can address Him as Father. It is very precious in our locality that we can address God as Father.

• Then we are concerned as we take that name on our lips. It should be as hallowed; there should be no uncleanness, or unholiness, or unrighteousness connected with it.

• Then, "thy kingdom come", meaning that we are not trusting in human power. At the Reformation they called in the civil powers to support them. Protestantism, as its name indicates, is really a protest against Romish encroachment, where the kingdom of God was set aside. Rome was guilty of that.

• This prayer brings in the power of God; you can rely on that. I mean that power is involved in the thought of God's kingdom.

E.B.McC. Is that connected with the mount where He was praying?

J.T. That was the kingdom in power.

J.C.S. So where the furnishings are right there would be no room made for any other kind of power in the assembly.

J.T. That is what the kingdom means: The kingdom is really the bulwark for us. You can count on God, and go on. You would not call in the powers that be.

• That is where I think the Reformation failed. There was an ignoring of the power of God in the kingdom, which would have supported them; and if that had been recognised I believe they would have gone on to the assembly. It brings about a sphere in which you are protected. Then it says further,
  • "Give us our needed bread for each day".

• In this – that is godliness – we bring God into our daily circumstances. This saves us from aspiring to be rich. Paul says, some, having the love of money,
  • "pierced themselves through with many sorrows", 1 Timothy 6: 10.

• This part of the prayer would save us from aspiring to be rich:
  • "Give us this day our needed bread".

  • Then it says, "Remit us our sins, for we also remit to everyone that is indebted to us".

• There I think we come down to the brethren. In our relations with one another the attitude is remission; we are not seeking self-vindication or giving offence to the brethren. Your heart is forgiving. You expect divine forgiveness only in the measure in which you forgive; that is the way in which you have forgiveness.
  • The next thing is, "Lead us not into temptation",

• a great word for the young people, because in every town and village, as well as in the cities, there are tempting things – picture shows, theatres, dancing, and other things that are seductive.

• It is a very wholesome prayer, it seems to me, for the saints in every locality if we are to be preserved and furnished so that we are not led into temptation. I believe every one of us here, in reverting to his past experience, will remember how God graciously protected us from things that would have ruined us.

• I think the formula here is, in its elements, the groundwork of conditions that the Lord can approve of. He then proceeds to a parable; in which He opens up the great gain of prayer – what you may get through it – namely, the Holy Spirit.

J.C.S. The Holy Spirit, in this light, comes in answer to prayer. That is how Luke presents the Spirit. I was thinking how it further supports the thought that Luke seems to connect everything with prayer – the great means whereby these things reach us.

R.McM. One who gets the Spirit in this way would use the Spirit; it is subject to desire.

J.T. I think this prayer makes room for the Spirit. If it is honestly uttered there is room for the Spirit to come in.

Ques. And would there be something for the Lord?

J.T. That is the thing. If you make room for the Spirit He will make room for the Lord. He is here on account of the Lord, and if there is liberty He will make room for Him.

G.R.G. Is this the Spirit in the house – a collective thought?

J.T. Yes, it is; it is to them that ask Him.

J.C.S. And the Father, who is of heaven, is He who gives the Spirit. Is that the connection in which the Spirit is given?

J.T. I think so. It is in order that there should be heavenly conditions on earth, that is the point:

• "The Father who is of heaven", Luke 11: 13.

• It is the character.

Ques. Would you say that the Spirit never forces Himself?

J.T. He does not; and you have the words, 'grieve' and 'quench'. Of course, wherever Christ is dishonoured He resists, for He cannot bear dishonour to Christ, or any unrighteousness.

J.C.S. Is this like the dove coming down?

J.T. That is it exactly. The dove is a very sensitive creature; I think she is a sample of that. She found no rest for the sole of her foot. She is not like the raven. The dove is discriminating, it seems.

J.C.S. I think that is very suggestive, and seems to give a beautiful climax to what we have been considering. Not only are there conditions now for the Lord Jesus to come to, but the Holy Spirit can come; there is nothing to disturb Him now.

R.J.W. The dove seems to suggest affections – affections that belong to the assembly.

J.T. It says of the dove, she returned to Noah into the ark; meaning that, typically, there was a link of affection there.

R.T. What is your thought in connection with the Spirit being mentioned only once in Colossians 1? Is it that the greatness and glories of Christ come before us?

J.T. I think it is rather that the Spirit's work is in evidence there. He is much in evidence in Romans, because Romans is the foundation; but I think Colossians contemplates His work. He says,

• "You … hath he quickened". Colossians 2: 13.

• It is the work of the Spirit. The Spirit is mentioned in Colossians only in connection with love.

Ques. Are the parables spoken here to encourage persistency in prayer in the sense of need:

• "Your Father knoweth what things ye have need of"? Matthew 6: 8.

J.T. Yes; He gives the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him.

Ques. Would it be right to pray for an increase of the Spirit in connection with our local assembly?

J.T. It would, indeed. How different things would be, under certain circumstances, if opportunity were afforded the Spirit of God. This passage is to encourage us to get on that line.

L.D.B. The sensitiveness which you mentioned is very suggestive. It says,

• "the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot", Genesis 8: 9.

• What sensitive discrimination!

J.T. The Spirit takes account of life. The dove came back the second time with an olive leaf plucked off. She did not pick up a dead leaf – it was plucked off; as if to remind us that the Spirit takes account of the energy of life.

R.J.W. Can the Spirit work from that?

J.T. He can, even if there is only one living one in the company. If the conditions which the prayer indicates exist I believe the Holy Spirit has liberty.

S.F. Would true prayer to God open up the channel for this unspeakable blessing to be enjoyed down here?

J.T. That is right. What the Lord says here is to encourage us to persist, because that is the only solution for local discord. The thing is to bring in the Spirit.

H.L.D. Would it be right to pray for the Spirit now?

J.T. It would be right if you did not have Him. I should not pray for Him if I had Him.

A.H.R. Would you encourage us to pray that there might be conditions for Him to come in?

J.T. Quite. That He might act in power. I should not like to weaken the Scripture which says,

• "How much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him", Luke 11: 13.

J.C.S. The Spirit has come in answer to desire. If there is no desire one cannot think of the Spirit coming in this connection.

Ques. What gives the desire?

J.T. The knowledge that conditions locally are not according to heaven, and that He is available to prayer.

R.J.W. Would it be a heart's desire? It says of David, in Acts 13: 22,

• "I have found David … a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will".

• And then the apostle reminds them of God's promise, as it says,
  • "I will give you the sure mercies of David", Acts 13: 34.

J.T. The Lord brings in the fathers after the flesh and compares them with the Father which is of heaven, and shows the greatness of His giving.

Ques. What do you say about Cornelius in that way-he prayed to God?

J.T. He prayed as one having light. One may pray without having the Spirit; he did not have the Spirit.

A.R.G. In what connection is the Spirit received here – as indwelling?

J.T. I take the incident at Ephesus, in Acts 19, as an example.

• "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?"

• That is what they needed.

A.R.G. That is collective.

J.T. It is.

R.J.W. That is, there were twelve men there, and the prayer is all in the plural.

J.T. That is what was needed. Paul laid his hands on them and they received the Spirit. That was the foundation of the Ephesian assembly, wherein there were conditions that would agree with heaven.

A.R.G. Is the thought making room for Him amongst us?

J.T. That is the idea.

H.L.D. Would this refer to Pentecost? There they were praying.

J.T. No doubt. This was written long after Pentecost, and it is to encourage us to pray; because if you see brethren biting and devouring one another, how can you tell whether they have the Spirit or not? The question is whether they have.

J.C.S. The idea is that the furnishings would all be orderly, beautiful; all animated with divine love flowing from the Spirit. It is a place where the Lord can come and feel at home, and the Spirit can rest without being disturbed, and the brethren can rest.

J.T. You see it in Ephesus. Paul represented the Lord in visiting Ephesus after the assembly had been set up. He embraces them as he leaves them, and then, as he returns and calls for the elders, they embrace him. There is the evidence of spiritual affections.

• If the Lord Himself had come He would have been received just as Paul, because Paul was His representative.

• As he went to Tyre, as recorded in the next chapter – Acts 21 – the brethren, their wives and children came out to the seashore, and all kneeled down together and prayed. There you see heavenly conditions. What a spectacle for heaven as they were all there with the apostle!

• Then in Ptolemais he went up and saluted the brethren, and spent a day with them; Acts 21: 7. "The brethren" is a heavenly suggestion. He saluted them; he did not rebuke them; there was evidently nothing to rebuke.

• Then he came to Caesarea and entered into the house of Philip the evangelist. That dignified name, which was undoubtedly fitting, is given to Philip. It says,
  • he "had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy". Acts 21: 9.

• The Spirit of God is pleased to say they prophesied and they were virgins. These are heavenly suggestions. The Lord Himself would have been quite free had He come to this place with Paul.

• I think the apostle's last journey to Jerusalem is to bring these facts into evidence – the great results of his ministry. There is nothing said about his ministry; the evident results were there, because it says they spoke to him by the Spirit.

L.D.B. To follow up the first scripture we looked at, the saints in this place were now different, and their garments were white and glistening.

J.T. That is the thought exactly.

J.C.S. So they learned to walk on high places.

J.T. Just so; and the fact that the Holy Spirit testified to him in every city shows He was free in the assemblies in these cities. He could speak through a brother, because, if He testified to Paul, it was through some brother or sister in the place.

J.C.S. They were well furnished there.

L.D.B. Do you think it is all possible still?

J.T. I do. It is what the Lord is aiming at now – to have "gardens" into which He can come and feed among the lilies.

Rem. The brethren dwelt together in unity in the places mentioned.

This passage presents the Lord praying in relation to His sufferings. It is obvious that in our progress, as we are identified with Christ here, we come in for sufferings, so that we may learn from this passage how we are to go through and endure them. There is to be entire submission, as we see in the Lord, to the will of God.

• Peter, in his epistle, works out how believers come into suffering as under the government of God here. They are not accidental – they are designed under the government of God; so that Jesus is said to be a model for us in that epistle, as we read:
  • "Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously", 1 Peter 2: 23.

J.C.S. So that you think, whilst the sufferings of the Lord Jesus here were unique, yet in them He affords a pattern for us in our sufferings of whatever nature they may be.

J.T. That is what I had in mind. This evangelist says,p>

• "He came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him. And when he was at the place he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation. And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down and prayed …".

• Matthew and Mark tell us that He went to "Gethsemane", and John that He entered into "a garden",
  • but Luke says He went to the "mount of Olives".

• I think the allusion is to the Spirit, for the position of the saints here involves that they are anointed by the Spirit, by the holy oil with which the tabernacle was anointed, which is, as you may say, the spirit of a suffering Christ.

• Hence in Acts 1 we are told that He showed Himself living after He had suffered. His sufferings open up to one's mind a good deal. As He showed Himself to them alive after having suffered they had before them a model of what should mark themselves.

• It is life out of death; but then it is life out of sufferings, and it is given unto us on behalf of Christ not only to believe but to suffer. So that the passage, I think, opens up to us much of what it is to suffer.

• The mount of Olives affords shelter at the outset, because it suggests the Spirit and immediate proximity to heaven.

R.J.W. Would you say that the believer, in taking character from the Lord Jesus, partakes of the nature of the acacia wood?

J.T. Yes, exactly; he has the power of endurance.

J.C.S. You mentioned the fact that we receive the spirit of a suffering Christ. Would the very fact that we receive the Spirit in that light involve suffering – we must be prepared to suffer as having received that spirit?

J.T. Yes, I think so. The only compound with which the tabernacle was anointed was composed largely of myrrh; there were other ingredients, but myrrh is mentioned first.

Rem. Would you say – having the end in view fortifies us for suffering? He showed Himself alive – the suffering was passed.

J.T. Yes, it is One alive, as having suffered. The idea of suffering is different from the idea of dying, although He died; they go together. Still He showed Himself alive after He had suffered.

S.F. This would be a prominent feature in Christianity at the present time, would it not?

J.T. I think it is. From the very outset it was intended that the saints should suffer. Paul speaks of filling up

• "that which is behind of the tribulations of Christ in my flesh for his body, which is the assembly", Colossians 1: 24.

• It would indicate that sufferings were to mark the saints, and Paul was zealous in this in so far as it lay with him. The idea should be filled out. Indeed, the Lord, in taking him up, had said,
  • "I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake", Acts 9: 16.

• It was a part of his testimony.

S.F. So that the Lord Jesus is the model, and Paul becomes a great example to us.

J.T. That is the thought. We have, in one of like passions as ourselves, the continuation of the spirit of the suffering Christ, and it is

• "for his body's sake", Colossians 1: 24, he says.

J.C.S. So that the sufferings the apostle endured in relation to what was of Christ here on earth are still continued, because the spirit of that suffering Man is still here.

G.H.C. In Psalm 45 we get the myrrh, aloes and cassia, referring to the Lord Jesus here.

E.B.McC. "The fellowship of his sufferings", Philippians 3: 10. Paul says.

J.T. It is that we are privileged to come into these – to have fellowship in His sufferings; and one would especially note the mount of Olives, because there is shelter there.

• I think the Spirit is in view, so that you are not at your own charges. In going through suffering you prove what the Spirit is – you know what the Spirit is to you. It may be noted that the altar was anointed seven times. It suggests intense suffering.

W.J.P. Would the oil suggest healing?

J.T. Well, I think there is superiority in the Spirit to the sufferings. You see how perfectly it appeared in Philippi. Paul and Silas were thrust into the inner prison.

• It seemed as if the jailor, in his zeal to inflict the severest punishment, thrust them into the inner prison, and made their feet fast in the stocks; they were scourged – the most excruciating physical suffering;
  • and yet it says, at midnight they prayed, and in prayer they praised God.

• There you see the superiority to the sufferings, by the Spirit.

Ques. Would Stephen afford an illustration of that?

J.T. I believe he is the counterpart of Christ. The manner in which he went through shows a superiority in the sufferings in that he was able to act as priest – to intercede for his murderers. It is affecting.

• Can we find anything more corresponding to the Lord on the cross than Stephen exhibits? He was able to do just what the Lord did.
  • The Lord said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do";

  • Stephen says, "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge". Acts 7: 60.

• He did not ask the Lord not to lay other sins to their charge, but not to lay that one. He was not resentful. I do not suppose Stephen would think of asking the Lord to remit the guilt of His own murder, but he did ask the Lord not to lay that one to their charge.

A.H.R. I was thinking, with regard to suffering, gladness and rejoicing flow out of it. Would you say He endured the cross for the joy that was set before Him; and we should be encouraged not to resent suffering, because gladness and blessing will follow?

J.T. Yes, indeed. "The joy that was set before him". Hebrews 12: 2.

• We cannot go through sufferings without the Spirit; we shall otherwise complain and resent them.

J.C.S. So that both in the case of Paul and Silas in the prison and in that of Stephen there was some correspondence with the anointed altar.

J.T. That is what I thought. You will remember the passage in the types,

• "Moses took the anointing oil, and anointed the tabernacle and all that was therein, and sanctified them. And he sprinkled thereof on the altar seven times, and anointed the altar and all his vessels", Leviticus 8: 10-11.

• I think that calls attention to the need of the Spirit if we are to suffer. We have already dwelt on the need of the Spirit as coming out of heaven, as given of the Father for local conditions; but we need the Spirit particularly if we are to suffer as Christ suffered.

Rem. It is remarkable that oil should be the symbol used, because it is procured by the crushing of the olive.

R.T. Peter says, "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind". 1 Peter 4: 1. How does that apply?

J.T. It refers back to the third chapter, 1 Peter, in which he says that Christ suffered for us in the flesh. Now you take that on. One arms oneself with the light that one, as it were, suffered in Christ's sufferings.

• The sufferings were all there – suffering in the flesh; it was for sins. He suffered for us, so that you have done with sin.

• The point there is that you do not have anything more to do with sin, because as suffering in the flesh you have done with that. It is a remarkable enforcement of the sufferings of Christ in their bearing on our everyday life. You are not to sin again – that is the bearing of that.

W.J.P. What we have to do is to arm ourselves.

J.C.S. What you are speaking of now relates to the vicarious sufferings of Christ.

J.T. Yes. But that is not the point in Luke. We do not get the forsaking of God in Luke. It is rather how He accepted suffering. Luke mentions that He went to the mount of Olives, because, I think, he alludes to the Spirit.

W.S. Do you think the mount of Olives would suggest the reserves we have in the Spirit for suffering?

J.T. I think it does.

J.C.S. Would you enlarge a little on the idea of the altar being anointed?

J.T. What has been called attention to is worthy of notice, because the pouring of the oil seven times on the altar is obviously to call attention to the spiritual power needed for the suffering that had to be endured;

• and so the Lord, in the endings of the gospels – that is, in the corresponding passages of the three gospels – is seen in suffering.

• He is seen in that way as the altar, and what impresses you is His wonderful endurance. Everything is accepted from the will of God. There is not the slightest evidence of any resentment – all is accepted from God.

R.J.W. Would you enlarge a little on what you said, that Christ Himself is the altar? The scripture says that the altar is greater than that which is put on it.

J.T. Well, I think the dimensions of the altar show that it was a type of Christ as suffering. It was five cubits broad, with horns, and three cubits high, that is, there was weakness.

• Christ was crucified in weakness, but at the same time there was power. Three cubits high refers, I think, to the inherent power of life that was in Christ. The horns also denote power.

• The suffering thus was borne in perfect submission to the will of God, and yet in perfect dignity.

E.O. Peter says, in connection with reproach,

• "The spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you", 1 Peter 4: 14.

J.T. That comes in. As you endure sufferings there is testimony. You can see how it shines out in Christ on the cross. The glory is in the fact that He says,

• "Father, forgive them".

• It was in wonderful accord with the mind of God. So with Stephen, the glory shines in remarkable power in a man of like passions with ourselves. That he should go through all that suffering, and yet be like Christ was a great testimony. He says,
  • "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge". Acts 7: 60.

G.H.C. You were speaking about abundant reserves in the Spirit for suffering; would that be indicated by the Lord praying more earnestly as the pressure increased?

J.T. It would. Prayer is the attitude. We were remarking that Paul and Silas prayed, and in prayer they praised God, showing their superiority to what they were enduring. What wonderful support must have been poured into their souls from heaven at that hour!

• And that is what we may reckon on. So the Lord is setting us an example here in that He prayed three times.

J.C.S. Paul and Silas did that in the power of the Spirit who had come down from that One who had suffered, so He could identify Himself with their sufferings.

F.H. Could you help us as to the form the sufferings might take at the present time?

J.T. We have the statement: "All that will live godly in Christ Jesus" – i.e., the anointed Man – "shall suffer persecution", 2 Timothy 3: 12.

• As He was anointed He came into suffering. He was carried into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. As though God would challenge all the devil's power; in the power of the anointing Jesus would go through for God's glory.

• When the Philistines heard that David was anointed, they sought him out; and again, in Psalm 2: 2, it says,
  • "The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed".

• Now if any man will live godly in Christ Jesus he shall suffer persecution. You are coming in for persecution. Wherever it comes from, it will come, because Satan will not let us alone as having been anointed. Then there is the privilege:
  • "Unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake". Philippians 1: 29.

S.F. On that line there is heavenly support. An angel from heaven strengthened Him.

J.T. That was another point I had in my mind to call attention to, because the angel is distinct from the anointing. Angels represent what is providential – what has reference rather to our bodies. The Spirit has reference to our souls – to what we are inwardly.

• The angel mitigates. Hence the Lord says to Smyrna,
  • "Ye shall have tribulation ten days". Revelation 2: 10.

• It is a limited period. That was providential. The angel has to do with all providential things, and ministers to our bodies so that we should not succumb through physical pressure.

S.F. That is a very helpful distinction.

Ques. Would that touch the line of priesthood?

J.T. Well, no doubt. He comes in accord with the sympathies of Christ to support. Of course we may reckon on angelic help as He did here.

• In Matthew the angel has to do with public government, but in Hebrews it says they are
  • "Sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation", Hebrews 1: 14.

• So that we may always reckon on angelic help in suffering.

A.H.R. Are there not two kinds of suffering here, the inward and the outward – the suffering in the garden and the suffering on the cross?

J.T. Yes. The physical suffering had not yet begun. In fact all this is anticipative of what was coming; but the services of the angel ought to be well noted, because we may reckon on that, so that we are not tempted above that we are able.

• The angel comes in to limit the thing. The Spirit carries you through, and you are like Christ in going through it; but there are limitations. We cannot endure as He endured, or Stephen, or Paul, so the Lord limits the trial to our measure.

• And I think the service of the angel is in that connection, as I have remarked about Smyrna – the persecution would be, as it were, for ten days. It should not go past ten. That would be some angelic intervention to check the power that persecuted, and so it comes down to everyone of us, in detail, that the affliction goes just so far; it does not go beyond your power.

• The point is to go through it, whether long or short, like Christ; that is what God has in His mind.

W.J.P. There is a verse in Peter's epistle: "Kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation", 1 Peter 1: 5.

• Is that a reference to the body or the soul? Would that imply angelic power?

J.T. It is the power of God through faith unto salvation – the soul's salvation – that Peter is speaking of there. He says also,

• "Wherein ye exult, for a little while at present, if needed, put to grief by various trials, that the proving of your faith, … be found to praise and glory and honour in the revelation of Jesus Christ", 1 Peter 1: 6-7.

• At present, if needed "we are put to grief by various trials".

• They come in for good, but are limited. The angel, I think, comes in for limitation.

E.C. Do you think there might be a suggestion here that the suffering might pass the limit of human endurance, but the angel extends the limit?

J.T. Well, it says, He "will not suffer you to be tempted above what ye are able", 1 Corinthians 10: 13 and I think that is where the ministration of angels comes in, to limit the sufferings.

C.H.H. What do we learn from the Lord Jesus in the way He went through suffering? Is it that He accepted it from God? He preferred God's will to being delivered from the suffering.

J.T. That is what comes out, I think. We are given His actual words elsewhere in this gospel. We are not told what He said in prayer. We are in John's gospel; we have the full prayer there recorded, but not in Luke. This, I think, is the first time we have His actual words, and it is to recognise the Father's will – the will of God.

A.H.R. Is the angel the answer to the mount of Olives?

J.T. I think it is a collateral ministration. In our case the Spirit is one thing and the angel is another. My thought is that we should reckon on the ministration of angels in our sufferings, but go through in the power of the Spirit.

Ques. Why do we get the angel in connection with the releasing of Peter, while in the case of Paul and Silas there was no angel?

J.T. I think the angel is in the earthquake. Any physical interference or movement, I think, comes under the ministration of angels. The earthquake shook the foundations of the prison.

• In Peter's case the doors of the prison were opened and he was let out. There was no shaking of the prison, nor did the prisoners get any gain from what happened;

• whereas, in the case of Paul and Silas you feel there is a full answer to what we have here. It is what Luke would present – the prisoners heard.

Rem. Paul and Silas prayed. By the Spirit they were enabled to pray; He comes in in that way; whereas it was not that with Peter.

J.T. Of course, we cannot tell definitely as to Peter. No doubt he prayed. We do know the assembly prayed for him, but the account indicates a state of unbelief, because they did not expect their answers.

• It was a weak situation; they were not looking for an answer to their prayers. That is a humbling thing, that we should have prayer meetings without any expectation of answer to our prayers; whereas God had answered their prayers, and it was by angelic intervention.

• In the case of Paul and Silas there is a beautiful touch, in that the prisoners heard: I am sure there never had been such a time as that in a prison.

R.J.W. The other translation says, "the prisoners listened to them", Acts 16: 25. They were attentive.

J.T. It was a marvellous turning into testimony of the power of the altar, the power of endurance in the service of Christ; the expression, as it were, of heaven in the interior of a dungeon; and when the jailor would have killed himself, a voice comes out of the prison – Paul's voice –

• "Do thyself no harm, for we are all here". Acts 16: 28.

• It was a marvellous turning of suffering into testimony.

J.C.S. That must have been a very agreeable scene for heaven to look down on, and see the reproduction of what Jesus was here as the suffering One.

J.T. It was indeed a counterpart of it.

R.T. Can we view Paul in Philippians 4 as one who had been under the formation of the Spirit? The Spirit of Christ is seen in him; he can say,

• "To know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings". Philippians 3: 10.

J.T. Philippians, amongst other things, sets out the sufferings of Christ. It emphasises the sufferings of Christ as part of Christianity. Philippians is like the tabernacle – the anointing is there.

• The assembly at Philippi began in sufferings at the outset; it had its origin in those sufferings we have just been speaking of.

• It was the gateway into Europe; and it was of God that the testimony should go into Europe in accord with the tabernacle, because it was to be in Europe that the great features of the testimony could be developed, and it was in keeping with the mind of God that the light should come in through these wonderful vessels at Philippi. The saints there had fellowship with the apostle in the gospel from the beginning –
  • "from the first day until now", Philippians 1: 5.

Ques. Would you say that prayer gives us power, and fortifies us to endure?

J.T. It brings in the power of endurance – the Spirit.

J.C.S. So that, while the support of the angel may come in an indirect way, it is the support of heaven for those who are prepared to suffer on the lines you have mentioned.

Rem. The stone's throw is always maintained –

• "He was withdrawn from them about a stone's throw", Luke 22: 41.

• He must always be pre-eminent.

C.H.H. Do you think formation comes through suffering?

J.T. No doubt. Then the imperial colour accompanies suffering:

• "If we suffer, we shall also reign". 2 Timothy 2: 12.

• Purple was one of the colours in the tabernacle, so that I think the suffering of the present time corresponds to the reigning of the future.

M.P.M. At the first meeting you said that these incidents in connection with the Lord were constructive.

J.T. I think it is very clear that they are. They correspond with our spiritual progress.

• If we are to be witnesses for Christ here we must be prepared for suffering, and then the question is, how am I going though, and this passage shows us how; first by prayer, and then as actually in it you reflect Christ.

• He prayed for His murderers; and we shall not be wanting in recompense as following in His steps, because I believe the repentant thief was the recompense the Lord got at that time.

S.F. Do you think sufferings would bring about moral state in us for the testimony, so that we should be able to hold our ground? It is the way the Lord Jesus has gone, and the apostle is an example.

L.D.B. We do not want to miss that allusion to the thief; if you would mention it again.

J.T. It seems to me very beautiful, as fitting in here. The blessed Lord had just expressed the glory. The glory shines:

• "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do".

• It was the glory of God that there was a Man capable of expressing that in the midst of the most terrible suffering. There was, I believe, a recompense; it is in the thief saying,
  • "Lord, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom".

• What joy it must have been to the Lord that there should be one in the midst of that awful situation who discerned the light that shone in Him! The light of the glory shone there, and the thief came in for it.

W.J.P. Was that the gift of the Father?

J.T. Well, it seems as if it were – a sort of recompense. It must have come about rapidly, for we are told in another gospel that both thieves reviled Him.

• The light of the glory must have shone into His soul as to the Royal Personage who hung by his side. He had light as to the Person of the Lord – what He was as Man.
  • "This man has done nothing amiss".

• How did he know that? He could not know it historically. He knew it by light. It is by light we know things divinely. We do not know divine things by history, but by light; the light comes into the soul, and that settles everything.

W.J.P. I thought that would be like the case of Peter – the revelation of God.

J.T. The light shone. I have no doubt it was the light that shone in Christ at that moment; the glory shone there.

L.D.B. Alluding again to the recompense: the Lord, thinking of the Jews, says,

• "I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought", Isaiah 49: 4.

• But in the thief He gained something that would meet His heart – compensation when He lost so much in connection with Israel.

Ques. Would that scripture apply, "Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies", Psalm 23: 51

• Would it be the Father strengthening, as it were, the heart of His Beloved One in such circumstances?

J.T. It appears so. We can, I think, somewhat enter into the thought of the Lord – what it must have been to Him to have the thief with Him –

• "To-day", He says, "shalt thou be with me in Paradise".

• He would have a companion there.

J.C.S. It lit up the dark surroundings for the Lord in the midst of suffering. The light that shone into the heart of the thief was a very great circumstance for the Lord in the midst of the darkness.

Ques. Would you say that God does not allow one moment's suffering unnecessarily? I was thinking of Paul and Silas. They prayed and sang praises to God. There was no murmuring, there was rejoicing; and His discipline, or whatever His dealings were, resulted in their answering to them.

J.T. Yes. Then they come in for bodily relief; in due time their very stripes were washed by the jailor.

R.J.W. The jailor was affected by the spirit he saw in them. It says

• he "washed them from their stripes", Acts 16: 33.

J.C.S. Going back to your thought as to this being constructive in view of the assembly down here, would it be right to speak of the assembly being the anointed vessel, and that the divine thought is that the light should now shine out through that suffering vessel?

J.T. I think that is the divine thought; so that a martyr is a witness. The idea of martyrdom is witness. To be a witness one suffers: but then the thing is to suffer like Christ, according to the anointing; the spirit of a suffering Christ.

L.D.B. In speaking of the angel, as you have mentioned it, would it be right to connect it with the passage,

• "Thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns", Psalm 22: 21?

• I wondered whether there was interposition at that point.

J.T. The interposition of God for Christ was in resurrection. Christ was heard from the extreme point of suffering, Resurrection was the answer; and the next thing is,

• "I will declare thy name unto my brethren". Psalm 22: 22.

• He was raised by the glory of the Father. The answer there was not angelic; it was the direct intervention of the Father Himself.

E.B.McC. I