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READING  5
SPIRITUAL UNITY IN THE MINISTRY OF JOHN (5) John 12: 20-33; 13: 21-32; 14: 15-28

S.McC. It was thought mainly to consider the section from John 14 to 17, but it came into one's mind last night, that perhaps we should refer to these sections that we have read from chapters 12 and 13, and then, if the Lord should so will, perhaps John 17 this afternoon.

• The section in John from chapter 13 to 17, that we come into now, is really the backbone of the subject we are considering in spiritual unity,

• and in suggesting these passages, the thoughts in mind are to see how we are bound up in the humanity of Christ, first of all, and then how we are bound up together in the affections of Christ.

• We have the humanity of Christ in regard to the grain of wheat falling into the ground and dying, and the bearing of much fruit, that is the new kind of humanity in which we are together bound up with Christ.

• Then in John 13, one feels that there is a typical and hidden allusion to the place of the assembly. In view of the degeneration and corruption under the influence of which the assembly has come publicly, it is important that we should see how we are bound up together in the affections of Christ.

• The fact that the Lord says of John in chapter 21,
  • "If I will that he abide until I come",

• is perhaps an indication to us as to certain features that appear in John that would greatly help us in regard to the assembly's position at the close of the dispensation.

• There is no doubt a hidden allusion to it typically, in John, as in the bosom, and on the breast of Jesus.

• Then we should see in chapter 14, how we are bound up together in the life of Christ, as the Lord says,
  • "because I live ye also shall live";

• then how we are bound with divine Persons together in a wonderful realm of love and affection.
  • "In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you".

• The new position is in mind in John 14, in the section that we have read, and particularly the assembly position is in mind. The new position is linked with the Lord going away and the Comforter coming, the Spirit being here; and not only the Spirit coming, but abiding with us, as it says,
  • "he abides with you, and shall be in you".

• That is a great steadying touch in regard to whatever may come into the history of the dispensation, because, while the Father and the Son coming to the one that loves Christ is a conditional matter,
  • the Spirit's abiding with us throughout the dispensation is not a conditional matter. It is His own prerogative act, and it goes right through the dispensation whatever might come in.

• I thought we might get help in considering these thoughts, especially beginning with how we are bound up in the new kind of humanity that is seen in Jesus, as having gone into death.

• Lazarus had the experience of going into death, and coming out of death, but he came back into flesh and blood conditions.
  • What subsequently happened to him we do not know, we are not told. Scripture leaves the matter silent as to what occurred with Lazarus afterwards.

  But he had the experience of going into death and coming out of it through resurrection power, although he came back into flesh and blood conditions.

• But what we are now considering is different. The Lord, in going into death and coming out of death, did not come back into flesh and blood conditions;
  • He came into a new condition, and in that new condition, this kind of humanity is seen, which stands over against all that is in the world.

• It is a kind of humanity that we have part in, and that we are bound up together with Him in. As we know, other epistles, like Hebrews 2 and Ephesians, develop the subject more, but we get the indication in John 12 as to this new kind of humanity in which we are bound up together with Christ.

S.McC. If we do not get the gain of that, disintegration is bound to come about with us, because separation from evil is always God's principle of unity. That is why we read the verse as to

• "I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me".

• That is, in this section, we are in the presence of the way of the cross, the way of death, death to the world, and the kind of humanity in it. In Philadelphia we have the complete acceptance of that, and the Lord is pleased with it.

M.A.W. Is that why the practical dealing with associations and what is evil leads to the family of God in 2 Corinthians 6, in the reference to sons and daughters according to God?

S.McC. That of course, does not go as far as what we are speaking of here, because it is a figure of speech, as you know, that is employed in that verse.

• It has to do with the moral side, mixed conditions, sons and daughters, and the Lord Almighty being Father to us. But it is on the way to what we have here.

C.M.M. Would you distinguish between the Luke aspect of the Supper and what is said in Corinthians?

• In Luke it is "my body which is given for you",

• and in Corinthians, "my body, which is for you".

• Does that involve this new order of humanity and remind us of it week by week?

S.McC. I think it is important to see that. It bears on what Mr. — was saying in relation to the Lord's supper, that when the Lord says "which is for you", He has in mind our appropriation of that.

• "This is my body, which is for you"

• has in mind the appropriation, on the part of the saints, of what is conveyed in that.

E.C.M. Is this illustrated in all Israel being assembled to David to Hebron, in 1 Chronicles 11, where they say, "We are thy bone and thy flesh"?

S.McC. That would be a typical suggestion of what we have here, that we are of Christ in that sense.

A.P.C.L. In verse 26 it says twice,

• "If any one serve me".

• It would not be possible to serve in that sense unless we understood what you are saying, would it?

S.McC. I think it is important to see how service comes in in that relation.

• It says "He that loves his life shall lose it, and he that hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal. If any one serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there also shall be my servant".

• Well, I think the "where I am" involves just what we are saying. It is the Lord in relation to this new condition of humanity, and His servant is to be there, as refusing the principles of the world and serving Him and following Him.

P.H.H. The Lord seems to bring in His Father a good deal at this point.

• First of all "Him shall the Father honour",

• and then His prayer "Father, save me from this hour",

• and "Father, glorify thy name".

• Could we have a little help on the Lord bringing the Father into the matter?

S.McC. One's impression has been in these days, that in referring to the ministry that has gone before us, and that has particularly characterised the revival

• – and we are carrying on now in the light of it in all its distinctiveness –

• that the Lord is testing us as to where we are practically in regard to the truth conveyed in doctrine as recovered in the revival.

• The matter therefore of the assembly as of Christ and out of Christ, has a very important bearing on us practically, and then there is the Father's name.

• We speak a good deal about the Father's name and the wonderful way in which the Father is made known, but entering into this setting, it has a practical bearing on our lives as accepting the way of the cross, the way of death.

E.J.B. So would this reference to the Lord's soul being troubled be a great lever to us to move practically on this line?

S.McC. I thought that. The reference to His soul brings in that it is not an academic matter with us.

• I would guard that expression, for I am not referring to the Lord, I am referring to ourselves, that with us it is not an academic matter; it is a feeling matter, as seen in the Lord, saying,
  • "Now is my soul troubled".

A.J.G. Does not the Lord indicate that it was a costly matter to Him in order to bring in this new order of humanity in which we are to have part?

S.McC. And are we not to be affected by that, that it was a costly matter to Him?

E.J.M. Would you mind amplifying what you had in mind in referring to the assembly in verse 27 in connection with the expression "on account of this"?

S.McC. "But on account of this have I come to this hour. Father, glorify thy name".

• The Lord is thinking of what would be involved in the Father's name as it stands out in this way, and especially what is reached in the assembly in regard to it.

M.H.T. Would the references in Leviticus 2 to the oblation of thy first-fruits, and in Leviticus 23 to the new oblation, help us to understand what you are bringing out as to the humanity of Christ and our part with Him in that order of manhood?

S.McC. Are you linking the new oblation with what we have in John 12?

M.H.T. Yes. In Leviticus 23, it is what is brought out of our houses.

S.McC. You would not link that with John 12, would you?

M.H.T. I only felt there was a link between the manhood of Christ as seen personally in chapter 2, and the new oblation. Leviticus 23, which refers to Pentecost typically, as linking us with Him in that humanity.

S.McC. Well, now that you have brought it up, it is perhaps good to see the difference. It is not exactly that they are the same, because they are not.

• I mean, the new oblation is different from what we have here, because what we are speaking of in John 12 is a sinless order of humanity.

• What you have in the new oblation is not a sinless order of humanity, for the leaven is there, and in Acts 2 the leaven was there, but rendered inactive by the fire.

• There is no need for the fire in this kind of humanity that is out of Christ that we are referring to in John 12.

J.S.E. It is all of itself.

S.McC. Just so. It is good to see the contrast, that what is referred to in Leviticus 23 is the kind of humanity that bears on the scene of testimony, where persons are in mixed conditions,

• but in John 12, and Hebrews 2, and Ephesians 5, it is not contemplating mixed conditions, but the pure, sinless conditions that we have part in as bound up with Christ in it. Is that clear? Do you go with that?

M.H.T. Yes, fully.

L.G.B. Is not this an incorruptible order of humanity?

S.McC. That is what was meant in using the other word – 'sinless'.

G.R.C. Would you say a word as to why Philip's locality is mentioned, "who was of Bethsaida of Galilee", and why he tells Andrew, and they come and tell Jesus? I wondered how this truth bore on the testimonial setting.

S.McC. I think it bears in its testimonial setting in the sense that as in our souls we are in the apprehension of being bound up with Christ in this kind of humanity, we reject entirely the features of the other kind of humanity, and that is seen in our practical walk and life before men.

• Instead of being men that depend on their mental ability, or men that depend on their natural resources, we have accepted the way of the cross, and the way of death, that leads into this new kind of humanity. What would you say yourself?

G.R.C. I was thinking that. The fact that Philip's locality is mentioned seems to have a bearing, and then what we should have in mind in our evangelical activities, and in answering enquiries, such as "Sir, we desire to see Jesus". I wondered whether it would adjust popular evangelisation and so on.

S.McC. I think what you say is very important, as to whether the way of the cross, and the way of death, as it appears in this chapter, really enters into and characterises our preaching, and our approach to men. Otherwise, we shall make something of the wrong man, and the result that will be produced will be linked with the wrong man, do not you think?

G.R.C. That is what I was wondering, whether this would help us in evangelical ideas.

S.McC. I am sure it would, and it helps us in our practical affairs in life, in hating our life in this world.

• As has often been said, the Greeks would not hate their life in this world, why it was just their life, you know, to reason and philosophise about things.

• To put things into philosophy, that was their life. We learn to hate that kind of thing, as having part in the humanity of Christ.

W.D. Is that seen in Acts 4: 13, "But seeing the boldness of Peter and John, and perceiving that they were unlettered and uninstructed men, they wondered; and they recognised them that they were with Jesus"?

S.McC. I suppose the practical effects of it were seen in their lives.

• We really have to come to Paul's ministry for the opening up of the doctrine of this, specially Colossians and Ephesians.

• But, as has often been noticed, before the doctrine is formally unfolded, we have it seen in suggestion in certain things in the beginning of the Acts.

• Like the body, for instance, we have "Why dost thou persecute me?" That comes in before the doctrine of the body is brought in through Paul.

J.S.E. Is there something peculiarly lovely and attractive in the fact that Jesus can address Himself to two men who are to be part of this much fruit? Does it help us to see that He is delighted with the prospect Himself of having men bound up with Him in this new kind of humanity?

S.McC. I think so, especially taking account of the fact that they were Galilean men. I mean, they were men that would be written off in the world as of little or no account – men of poor capacity and the like.

J.McK. Would you say a word as to

• "Where I am"?

• It is an expression that the Lord uses more than once, subsequent to this passage. Is this a kind of basic idea for all that is to follow in the way of privilege?

S.McC. I think it is. It is mentioned about four times, maybe more, in this section we are reading; the "where I am" would specially bear upon the testimonial position, and matters that arise. Well, it is a great thing to be where the Lord is, in all these matters.

J.McK. That would imply dignity and elevation; the idea of lifted up comes into the section, does it not?

S.McC. It does. It is the way out of the world. That is what is being stressed in John's ministry, the way out of the world in the acceptance of death.

P.H.H. Is that what is meant in the judgment of this world? It says,

• "Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the prince of this world be cast out".

• Is that a reference to the power of His death, and the beginning of a new order of humanity in another world?

S.McC. I thought so. And in the light of that we want to get out of the world, do we not?

P.H.H. Yes, exactly. Do the saints therefore, as being after the order of Christ's humanity, become testimony in the world?

S.McC. They do.

J.G. Is this the answer to Joseph's sheaf, in Genesis 37, "my sheaf rose up, and remained standing". Is there a link there?

S.McC. Well, we have I suppose in the type a suggestion of it. It is the kind of humanity that could stand the test, and we are all in the testing period, and we are all being as it were, tested, and the question is as to whether we shall stand up to the test.

• Joseph stood up to the test, whether in the house of Potiphar, or whether it was in prison, or whether it was among his brethren, he stood up to the test.

R.W.S. The expression in verse 25, "shall keep it to life eternal", just what is involved in that, please?

S.McC. That is a very interesting reference, because I suppose we are to take account of how the it merges into life eternal. It says,

• "He that loves his life shall lose it, and he that hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal".

• That is, as before God, it is a question of how we hold our lives, and whether we hold them in relation to this world, or whether we hate them in relation to this world, but keep them to life eternal.

• It is a question of the value of things before God in that sense, the 'it' being an abstract allusion to life in its value before God, and whether we allow the world to lay hold of it, or whether we keep it to life eternal.

J.M. In the first reference to the death of the Lord here, it is the grain of wheat falling into the ground – He goes down out of sight. But in the second one He is lifted up, a public spectacle, signifying by what death he was about to die. Is there something instructive in that?

S.McC. It shows the two sides of the truth. In the one side there is the secret mysterious side, known in the assembly, that we are bound up with one another in this order of humanity that is altogether new.

• But then, on the public side, there is the lifting up; it is the testimony to the judgment of the world, and the judgment of the prince of the world; and then that becomes the centre of attraction.

A.H. When the Greek element is seeking to invade the assembly at Corinth, Paul speaks like this, does he not? He says, Greeks seek wisdom, and so forth, but we preach Christ crucified.

S.McC. Just so; Paul had to take issue with it. The cross, you see, has to do with that, although the cross in Corinthians seems to bear on the lascivious side of man, and his practises.

• When you come to Colossians, the cross and circumcision bear more on the refined kind of man, the polished man, the philosophical mind, that we have to be delivered from.

A.E.M. I wonder how many of us hate our life in this world. It is a very strong expression and tests us all.

S.McC. I think we should face it. It is a very practical matter as to whether we have sat down and calculated and arrived at this matter of hating our life in this world.

T.J.G. In similar statements in Matthew and Mark, the Lord refers to finding, or seeking to save, and so on; but here in John, the deep-seated emotions of the believer are referred to, hating or loving.

S.McC. It shows how intense the matter is. Hatred is an activity of love, in that sense.

E.E.H. Would you say a word on this expression,

• "The hour is come that the Son of man should be glorified"?

• It is mentioned in this chapter as well as in chapter 13.

S.McC. I think it is important to see how that is. We should go on to chapter 13, to see how the way that is indicated in the teaching of the Lord in these sections makes way for the glorification of the Son of man.

• The world to come is moved on to our view, and there is a very intimate link between the world to come and the assembly at the present moment in that sense. We do not have to wait till the public day of glory to see the Lord as He is to be seen as glorified. There is a sphere in the assembly now where God glorifies Christ immediately.

A.J.G. So that chapter 12 deals with what is future and public, but chapter 13 is that He is glorified in a moral sense, and glorified in the affections of the assembly?

S.McC. That is it. The last expression in verse 32 "and shall glorify him immediately" shows that God has a realm in the assembly in which Christ is honoured in that way, immediately.

• It is not deferred, it is not put off for the millennium, or the world to come, it is immediate in the assembly.

A.W. Why is it the Son of man that is glorified here?

S.McC. I think it is to expand the view of the disciples beyond Judaism. Judaism, in this realm of things, has no part; it is entirely outside – it adds nothing to Christ. The Son of man has a reference to His position universally in connection with man.

W.S.S. In connection with verses 31 and 32, Mr. Darby has a note that the word is literally 'has been', as though the matter is looked upon as having been accomplished. Would that have a bearing on what you were saying about the Lord being glorified at the present time in the midst of the assembly?

S.McC. The 'has been' in that sense is the cross.

• "Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is" (or literally 'has been') "glorified in him",

• that is the cross, the death of Christ, where every moral issue has been resolved and God glorified in the resolving of it. That glorification is in the death of Christ.
  • Then "If God be glorified in him, God also shall glorify him in himself" is Deity, involving John 17: 5;

  • and then "shall glorify him immediately"

• is the great realm in the assembly where glory is not deferred, but Christ has glory in an immediate way.

W.S.S. I was thinking of the remarkable fact that when Judas went out, the Lord speaks as if the matter is accomplished.

S.McC. Just so. This whole section is dealing with an out-of-the-world condition, for the Lord is going to the Father. He is drawing near, and He speaks, without referring to the actual matter of death, as on that way, and out of the world.

W.C. Is verse 27 of chapter 12 an allusion to Gethsemane in that connection, the Lord going through all this with His God and Father beforehand?

• He says, "Now is my soul troubled, and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour. But on account of this have I come to this hour. Father, glorify thy name".

• It seems to be akin to Gethsemane, does it not?

S.McC. It is very striking that it comes in early in John. I mean there is something to note in that, because the section that we have read from in chapter 13 and then chapter 14, really deals with the section of the Lord's supper.

• But the instructions in chapter 14, as Mr. Darby points out, must have occurred between the singing of the hymn, and the going out, just before they went out to the mount of Olives, just at that juncture.

J.S.E. Would you be free just to go over those three salient points you stated just now? I am sure it would be well if we could all get hold of that.

S.McC. You mean as to the glorification of the Son of man? Well, I am not saying anything new, I am only saying what I have been taught, what the rest of us have been taught.

• In verse 31, "Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him",

• that has to do with the cross and the death of Christ; it has not to do with Him at the right hand of God, it has to do with the cross, and the death of Christ.
  • Then verse 32, "If God be glorified in him, God also shall glorify him in himself",

• that is, glorify Him in God, in Deity, and that involves John 17: 5, the glory that He had along with the Father before the world was.
  • But then "shall glorify him immediately"

• brings in the Spirit here, and the assembly formed, and a realm in which Christ is glorified.

C.K. Would you think that the position that John takes up as suggestive of the assembly as you have said, in the bosom and on the breast, would have that in view?

S.McC. I think it makes way for it. Where you get an active state of love, or a passive state of love among the brethren, as suggested here, it makes way for the opening up of the truth as to the Person of Christ. So that Ephesians is on that line.

J.M. In chapter 16 it says of the Spirit, "He shall glorify me". That would be in the assembly now.

S.McC. Just so.

— We cannot overlook the fact here, verse 21, that "Jesus was troubled in spirit".

S.McC. I think this section is very important in that relation. But we would be glad to get any help as to what you were thinking of now.

— Well, the trouble in the previous chapter, you note, was in regard to what was immediately before Him, His death; but this trouble was in regard to conditions amongst the twelve.

S.McC. This is very important. It is not the Greeks coming up from the outside, it is what was in, as you might say, the bosom of the assembly. It is the terribleness of what is inside, "one of you shall deliver me up".

• That is a very sobering and testing matter, because the Lord is laying it on the disciples, in this sense.

P.H.H. Would the disciple leaning on the breast of Jesus be the support in view of that condition of things?

S.McC. I thought so. I thought it was the assembly as bound up with Christ in this great matter of affection that becomes a means of salvation in regard to this awful element.

• Mr. Darby said once, in connection with this kind of thing, and referring to the statement of men that the blood of the martyrs was the seed of the church, that the church was victorious when the opposition was from without, in relation to martyrdom;

• but when the opposition arose from within, in defection and degeneration, what was within succumbed to the power of the enemy – a humbling thing in the dispensation.

R.G.B. Is that why the love of Christ is referred to peculiarly in this chapter?

• At the beginning it says "having loved his own who were in the world, loved them to the end",

• and then imme diately, you get the reference to the devil. Is the experience of the love of Christ peculiarly needed to sustain us in such circumstances, and help us to be victorious?

S.McC. That is what one is thinking about in suggesting this passage. We need to rely more on the support of the love of Christ in the assembly, in meeting this kind of thing.

• Association thus with an evil principle, if it is in a person or otherwise, is far more likely to overcome us than bitter opposition from without. Judas represents association with evil on the inside. It is "one of you".

P.H.H. So in chapter 21 the bosom is not mentioned; it says

• "who also leaned at supper on his breast", verse 20.

• It is just the support of the love of Christ in that setting.

S.McC. Exactly. The breast is interesting in that way, and the support that it affords, for it is the framework.

A.J.G. I was just going to refer to that incident in chapter 21. The Lord told Peter to follow Him, and he immediately turns, but as he turns he sees the disciple whom Jesus loved following, and then it says,

• "who also leaned at supper on his breast, and said, Lord, who is it that delivers thee up?"

• The Spirit of God makes much of this fact of John leaning on the breast of Jesus, as being able to face the terrible condition that the Lord indicated in relation to Judas.

S.McC. Do not you feel it is very important that if the spirit of betrayal is to be met, it can only be met, as it were, in this kind of environment, where the brethren are bound up together with Christ, in the enjoyment of His affections, as typified in John?

• The Lord had indicated the matter to them earlier, but apparently here they did not realise it; they did not realise the seriousness of it. The disciples therefore looked one on another, doubting of whom He spoke, and yet He had indicated to them earlier what was among them.

C.H. Are we not therefore to be intelligent as to the progression of evil, as well as the Lord's progression in the thoughts of God? It says earlier, that Satan put it into the heart of Judas, but now Satan entered into him. Is that more active?

• There are many things that may come into our minds, and in the light of the cross we can judge them, but if they are not judged, do they make way for Satan himself?

S.McC. That is a very solemn matter, and certainly should affect us in that sense, that Satan finds a door in the heart of Judas through which he can enter to betray Christ, and every action against the truth is in principle a betrayal of Christ. We want to see that.

C.H. Peter says to Ananias in Acts 5, "why has Satan filled thy heart?" There had been collusion in evil, and that makes way for Satan filling the heart.

S.McC. Satan gets a peculiar advantage through collusion in that way, to attack the economy, and what the assembly is in relation to it.

C.H. There had been collusion here with Judas and those outside?

S.McC. Just so.

E.C.R. The Lord was saying in chapter 12 that His soul was troubled, but in chapter 13 that He was troubled in spirit, as though the matter is intensified.

S.McC. Just so. And the reference to the spirit is very interesting, because it is Himself, you see; the Lord was the spirit of His own body. We have a spirit, of course, but it is different with us,

• the Lord was the spirit of His own body, and the spirit is Himself. He was troubled in spirit, because the whole assault of the enemy in the betrayal is on Christ.

T.J.G. Does the fact that the disciples were unaware of the betrayer indicate the alarming fact of the terrible deception that must have been going on with Judas amongst the disciples?

S.McC. I think it is a salutary word for every one of us. I feel it is for myself, that unless the spirit of self-judgment is maintained thoroughly in your heart, it will open a door for Satan to move against Christ and the assembly.

— The Lord was feeling things in His spirit, it says, "Jesus was troubled in spirit". It is therefore a question now of the spirits of the brethren, a question of what you might feel. The Lord knew, of course, and He said, "one of you shall deliver me up", but He did not act on it, I mean to say, you might know a thing in your spirit, that it is not right.

S.McC. I think it is very important that the Lord knew about it all the time, but then He waited for the overt act. An overt act came in in which Judas was fully exposed, but the Lord had a judgment as to him all the way through. And we are to be concerned as to the nearness to Christ, as in the bosom and on the breast of Jesus, that we should have a judgment as to things, do you not think?

— "What thou doest", He says, "do quickly". That is, there was the doing of the thing, "What thou doest, do quickly". That is, the Lord is really allowing a person to do something that brings out what the thing is.

S.McC. And that is important to see. We do not go into the divine province of the heart of man, for God is the heart-knowing God. We do not go in there and read what is in there; we take account of what comes into operation, what is done, and what appears, what was in the Lord's mind in telling Judas to do the thing.

A.J.G. Do you think it was encouraging in that sense that the Lord is in complete control of the evil as well as the good, so that He can tell Judas to do it?

S.McC. I think it is an anchor for our souls, that we can count on the Lord, as we are with Him, as suggested in John. We might thus be helped in meeting this kind of thing, which is all around and which comes into the very bosom of the assembly as in this 13th chapter of John.

A.W.G.T. Because it was not merely a deception, it was an overt attack. The word Satan being used, means the adversary, is that right?

S.McC. Just so.

P.L. In that sense, the Lord peremptorily addresses Satan, does He not, in Judas? In a certain sense He says no more to Judas, though of course Satan is in Judas. Now the Lord is tracing the thing to its origin, do you think?

S.McC. Yes. It is a remarkable thing in that relation that when it was Peter, and what Peter said, the Lord said "Get thee behind me, Satan", but the Lord never said that to Judas. There is an interesting point there, for the Lord allowed the matter to work out with Judas until the thing covered the man entirely, and the Lord says, "What thou doest do quickly".

Ques. Is there a difference between the two questions? In Matthew you get what appears to be on the side of conscience, "Is it I, Lord?" But here, it seems to be a question of intimacy, "Lord, who is it?"

S.McC. I think it is important to see that the Lord begins with saying "one of you". That is. Judas had part with the twelve; he was one of the twelve, and the Lord is emphasising that, "one of you".

• Then the answer to the question comes through the one who is in the place of intimacy and nearness, he says, "Lord, who is it?" as if to say, Who could it be that would be guilty of such a dastardly act?

H.J.P. What is the significance of the Lord dipping the morsel and then giving it to Judas?

S.McC. I think it is to show us the dispensation of grace. Judas could not say that he did not have every advantage, neither could Saul, in the Old Testament. He was given every advantage, for the Lord must have washed the feet of Judas. Think of it, washing the feet of Judas! What must have been in the Lord's mind as He washed the feet of Judas. But there it was. The Lord gave him every advantage to repent, and to judge things, but of course, Judas did not.

M.A.W. Would this help us to understand why John says of the Lord "full of grace and truth"?

S.McC. Yes. Now we should have a word as to John 14, as to the new position, and how we are bound up with Christ in this matter of life, and bound up by the Spirit with divine Persons in this wonderful unity of love, this oneness in affection that comes on to view in verse 20.

• But the reference to the Spirit in this section, bringing on the new footing on which things were to be, and in which things are now, is very important, because it is an assembly footing.

• Even if it comes down to "If any one love me", the whole section and context is dealing with the presence of the Spirit and the truth established on an assembly basis and footing.

G.R.C. Is that why the importance of knowing the Comforter is stressed by the Lord? He says,

• "ye know him, for he abides with you, and shall be in you".

S.McC. It is important that we should know the Spirit, and that we should understand what the Lord says here in that relation,

• "for he abides with you, and shall be in you".

• He said earlier "that he may be with you for ever".

• The Spirit thus goes through in the dispensation, and the assembly goes through in the dispensation. Whatever may have come in, publicly, we see here the great side of mystery in the presence of the Spirit in the assembly going all the way through.

• It is not just what is conditional, but "he abides with you, and shall be in you" is from His own side.

P.H.H. Do you mean that in the later verse, verse 23,

• "if any one love me, he will keep my word",

• that has an assembly connection? Is that what I understood you to say?

S.McC. Exactly. It is like Matthew 18 – "If two of you". It is not just two persons, it is two persons on an assembly footing, two persons of assembly quality.

• And when the Lord says here "if any one love me" it is in this environment and context where the Spirit is viewed as having come in and things on this new basis.

A.J.G. So that verse 20 gives us what is knowable, what is to be known, in the day of the Spirit in the assembly, and then verses 21-23 give us the conditions under which they will be actually realised, having in view what has come in in Christendom?

S.McC. That is very important, subjection to the commandments.

A.J.G. First keeping His commandments, and then keeping His word.

S.McC. Just so. Obedience in that sense is the great test at the present time.

A.H. Is the reference to the word "Judas, not the Iscariot" to be understood in the eradication of the principle that the Lord had exposed?

S.McC. No doubt it has.

W.F. The Lord says to Philadelphia, "Thou hast kept my word". Does that show what is possible in the abiding presence of the Spirit here?

S.McC. I think it does. I think we have in Philadelphia a state of things in which this part of the truth is arrived at, and seen.

• In Philadelphia we have believers that have returned to the truth of the assembly, as it is in the mind of Christ, and they are not only standing in it, but they are marked by the practice of the truth that is proper to it.

E.E.H. Would you open up a little what is meant by

• "because I live ye also shall live"?

S.McC. I think it is to bring out this matter of contact with Christ, that in life it is not just a matter of doctrine. We have the doctrine of life unfolded all the way through, but it is a matter here of our association with Christ, and that we are bound up with Him in life, and that stands over against all that is around.

R.G.B. Is there any link with what is said in Colossians 3,

• "your life is hid with the Christ in God"?

S.McC. Yes, I think it involves that Christ is our life, and our life is bound up with the Person thus apprehended and known, in relation to glory.

• Then "in that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you".

• How could that be possible apart from the Spirit? As Mr. Taylor referred to it in the latter part of his days, it is the great binding power of the Spirit, that we are bound up together with one another by the Spirit. The Spirit is the binding power.

• And divine Persons in the economy, in the divine arrangement are bound up together by the Spirit, and we are bound up with divine Persons in the arrangement by the Spirit. The Spirit is the great Fulcrum in the truth in this section.

A.P.B. In verse 19 the Lord says "but ye see me; because I live ye also shall live". Does that confirm what you were saying, that it is not just a matter of doctrine, but by the Spirit's power and presence, seeing the Lord in His movements and in His active life, that we live?

S.McC. Yes, it opens up the great spiritual realm, and our participation in life, and our being bound up in life in one another and with Christ by the Spirit in it.

— It is like Moses, God showed him the whole land. He showed him everything from that point of view. I suppose in this section in John the whole land is ahead of us?

S.McC. Very good. You get the expression "all the truth" coming in later. The whole land would be like that; it is not just part of it. That would help us, so that whatever defection comes in, we have the whole truth in mind, and nothing but the whole truth.

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READING  6
SPIRITUAL UNITY IN THE MINISTRY OF JOHN (6) John 17: 1-8, 20-26

S.McC. The brethren will readily see how in this chapter spiritual unity as seen in the ministry of John comes before us in the most dignified and refined kind of way.

• We are now in the presence of one divine Person speaking to another; one divine Person in the condition of manhood, speaking to One who is unseen, and yet in another way, has been seen in Himself, in the Lord Jesus, the Son.

• In the previous chapters the Lord Jesus has been speaking to the disciples, going over the truth with the disciples, but now He is speaking to the Father with His eyes lifted up to heaven, and the subject of the speaking is very full and rich, and into it comes the thought of the unity or the oneness that we have been considering.

• The Lord is speaking to the Father about the apostles, and about us who come in as believing on their word, and about the assembly. So that the assembly appears as in the divine mind in this section as the most wonderful vessel in the universe of God, for it would anticipate that.

• Its capacity, its formation, its intelligence, will for ever be unique through all eternity. The epistles of Paul to the Colossians and the Ephesians develop it in its fulness and greatness, and it all has in mind, I suppose, specially what the assembly is as the vessel of praise.

• Ephesians 3 and Hebrews 2 refer to the assembly in that particular greatness and richness in which it is viewed as the vessel of praise, the vessel of glory.

• I thought perhaps we might think a little of the holy agreement, and arrangement in which the Persons that are before us here are viewed, in the unjealous relations of love, the subject being the saints.

• It is a wonderful thing that God has come into this arrangement where we have the three holy Persons in it, the Father, and the Son and the Spirit, all having in mind the great divine end in relation to men, for their own pleasure and glory; and we, not only as coming into it, but bound up with the holy Persons in it, for we are to be one as they are one.

S.McC. I think it is important to see that. Eternal life in that sense is not an afterthought; it is a primary thought with God,

• but it is a primary thought, as we have been taught, that God has made relative.

• Sonship was a primary thought, but it was never, as it were, altered in relation to relative conditions.

  li>Eternal life was in divine purpose for men, but, when sin came in, God moved eternal life into the relative position to meet the need that arose in the human heart. So that it is a primary thought now made relative to the need in men occasioned by sin.

J.T.S. In relation to the Lord having authority over all flesh, it says, in the closing chapter of Isaiah,

• "it shall come to pass from new moon to new moon, and from sabbath to sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, saith Jehovah".

• Will that be the outcome of the Lord's authority over all flesh?

S.McC. No doubt. The world to come will be a wonderful realm of things, but it is not so great as the present realm of things that we are in in the assembly; it is not so great as the present time.

• So that the Lord, while He opens with that, channels our thoughts into the exclusiveness of the present time,
  • "that as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal", and He works down to "the men whom thou gavest me out of the world".

T.J.G. In verse 2 is "all flesh" the widest possible thought, and is the expression "that as to all", including only the saints of God? I am asking, or is there a difference between "all flesh" and "all that thou hast given me"?

S.McC. I think so. I think there is a wide general view as to the authority over all flesh, and then there is a specific view "as to all that thou hast given to him".

• We are to notice these two parallel lines of thought that run all the way through John's gospel, from the first chapter to the end; there is the great general thought, and then the specific thought in which certain ones are specially in mind.

J.S.E. Could I ask a further question about this matter of flesh, for I believe we all need help about it?

• Does the inclusive term "all flesh", as bearing upon the world to come, include the restoration of normal relationships between the animals according to Isaiah 11, and when that is all set out, does God resort to His fullest thoughts in dwelling with men, without allusion to any other kind of creature?

S.McC. I think men are His primary thought, and chiefly in mind; and the lower creation incidentally is affected in relation to man who is the centre of creation, as Psalm 8 would show. All creation is made to revolve around the central figure in it, which is man,

• "What is man, that thou art mindful of him?"

M.P.S. Would you therefore say something please about verse 3, and the expression

• "Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent", in particular?

S.McC. We had it in this very hall, from this very part, the thought that

• the true God delivers us from idolatry,

• and Jesus Christ, the true Man, delivers us from lawlessness;

• we have got the true pattern of manhood in Jesus Christ.
  • "Other foundation can no man lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ", 1 Corinthians 3: 11.

J.P.H. In verse 6, to which you referred; is the speaking in a similar strain to what the Spirit gave through Paul in Ephesians 1: 4,

• "according as he has chosen us in him before the world's foundation, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love"

• – the men that were the Father's and were given to the Son?

S.McC. Yes, and eternal life is one of the blessings that we are blessed with in Christ Jesus in the heavenlies. We have been blessed

• "with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ"

• and eternal life is one of them, sonship is another. These are great and wondrous thoughts involving man.

J.P.H. I was referring to the end of verse 6 primarily,

• "They were thine, and thou gavest them me, and they have kept thy word".

S.McC. Yes, they belonged to the Father, in counsel, as we might say. But it is important to see that the Father does not give them away, just as in John 3 in regard to the things, when it says

• "the Father loves the Son, and has given all things [to be] in his hand".

• That does not mean that the Father has given them away, that they are not the Father's any more. The point is the arrangement, and the Lord Jesus as the great Administrator in it. The great Operator in it.

H.F.R. Does the supremacy of the Father shine out in these expressions,

• "as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal"?

• And then "the men whom thou gavest me out of the world".

• The Lord does not take the place of selecting Himself, it is those that the Father has given to Him.

S.McC. I think it is very important that we should see, in relation to that, the great place that the Father has, the Father and His name.

• We should see too how the Lord, on this upward way would fill our minds with thoughts of the Father's greatness and of the Father's glory, for the name "Father" is the crowning feature in our dispensation.

• It is the name by which God is specifically known, in contrast to "Elohim", or "Almighty", or "Jehovah".

• Father is the name by which He is specifically known in this dispensation and it represents the crown of the dispensation, in that sense.

P.L. All to enrich the service of God with these spiritual feelings seen in Christ?

S.McC. Just so. All this is intended to bring about richness in our souls, so that we are not just using mere terms, in assembly service, in the service of God, but we are enriched in the knowledge of the Father.

H.W. Could we view the statement made in John 1 as underlying all this that we are speaking of,

• "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world"

• – the restoring of the relations between God and His creature in eternal life?

S.McC. That is very interesting, because, as we know, that looks on to the world to come, when God by His power, through the Lamb, will deal with what has entered into the ordered system in which His pleasure was once.

H.W. I thought it would help us in our souls to view that as the basis on which God is securing all these great thoughts.

S.McC. Yes, it would.

G.R.C. Is that implied in verse 4, "I have glorified thee on the earth, I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it"?

• Did not that work that He completed culminate in the offering of Himself, as it were, upon the altar of burnt-offering?

S.McC. Exactly. In the very scene where sin had come in, and evil had raised its head, the Lord says "I have glorified thee". We have the emphatic 'I', and the emphatic 'thee'.

• "I have glorified thee on the earth, I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it".

A.H. Would it be right to think that what the Lord now says in verse 5 has in mind what Paul is speaking of in Ephesians 4: 10, where He goes beyond creation in order that He might fill all things?

S.McC. That would involve His place in that sense beyond the created realm. We cannot enter there; He can enter it because of who He is, and what He is.

R.G.B. Is the choiceness and greatness of the assembly in mind in the reference to the men, that they are capable of having the Father's name manifested to them, and then they are capable of keeping the Father's word?

S.McC. I think so. I think the whole chapter in that sense would bring into our minds the greatness of the assembly, as the vessel that is peculiarly in the divine mind at the present time.

• The assembly is divinely capacitated and divinely formed to take in these communications, to receive them, as it says, "they have received them", alluding to the apostles.

P.H.H. You said earlier the assembly is to be the vessel of capacity and intelligence.

• Would you say a little here about the Father, and God? I would judge that the saints have good intelligence as to that, but there is still some hesitation in some places.

• I wondered if we could ask you for a minute or two on that. Does it enter into the intelligence of the assembly, as the vessel of praise, that it knows the different settings of these two names?

S.McC. When you referred to hesitation, would you say a bit more about what you mean.

P.H.H. It has come under my notice, for instance, that some in the service of God are very free to speak to God as Father, and are full and happy in it,

• but when it comes to what the Lord speaks of later, in John 20, "my God and your God", the fulness of what is contained in that does not seem to be such a happy portion. So that with some, at any rate, while the truth is not opposed, it is not voiced.

S.McC. I would feel for myself that if that marked one, it was because one did not know the Father.

• I do not think that any person, any believer that knows God in the parental relation, as the Lord has in mind that believers should know Him, would have any difficulty about God in the general position, involving His supremacy, and involving what He is, known as Father, Son and Spirit.

• I think perhaps you would say something yourself, but the whole burden of the Lord's ministry here is bearing on the knowledge of the Father, and if that knowledge has been rightly received and we are rightly formed in relation to it, we shall not have much difficulty in traversing the path with Him from
  • "my Father and your Father" to "my God and your God".

P.H.H. Yes, I fully follow that, and agree with it. Even here in the early verses, verse 3, for instance, the Lord is speaking to the Father, and says "Father", but He also says "that they should know thee, the only true God".

• I understand what you mentioned earlier that the true God delivers us from idolatry, but the expression "the only true God" must contain a great deal more in itself, would you say?

S.McC. Abstractly it would. But here, of course, it is the Father.

P.H.H. Yes, it refers to the Father here; I am clear about that.

S.McC. Wherever you get the word 'God', there is a fulness in it that we could never detract from.

• But then, Scripture does differentiate and distinguish between God and Christ at times; so that we would have to go by the Scriptures, and speak as Scripture speaks.

• The word 'God' never loses its fulness, but yet distinctions are maintained in Scripture, and there are certain passages which could be quoted, where God and Christ are viewed as distinct.

G.R.C. But I suppose the term "the only true God" here is in contrast to "false gods". It is not intended to exclude the Son and the Spirit; it is not exclusive in that sense.

S.McC. No reference to God excludes either the Son or the Spirit or the Father abstractly. Nowhere in Scripture does any reference to God, in that sense, exclude any of the Persons abstractly. There must always be in our minds, even in speaking to one Person as God, the light as to all three.

P.H.H. So that on the lines on which we are going now, in John, you are never very far away from the Trinity, and would the expression used in John 20, "my Father, and your Father", detain us, and so to speak bathe us, in the sense of the gracious name that God has taken on in order that we might be filled with the thoughts, and the grace of the Father?

S.McC. Yes. And you I am sure would say that we cannot put the Trinity into the name Father. There is only one Person involved in that name. So that we have to be governed by Scripture and the context in which names and appellations appear.

P.H.H. By saying not far away from the Trinity, I meant that we are in the presence of the Son, He is speaking, and we are in the presence of the Spirit, by whose power we reach that position, and we are before the Father Himself. Does not that help us on?

S.McC. So that we are always reminded of the mystery that we are in the presence of, and of what we cannot explain or define. While Persons come on to our view concretely, in the Father, the Son and the Spirit, sometimes together, sometimes singly, there is always a mystery surrounding the position, that we just cannot fathom or explain.

A.P.C.L. You were saying that the knowledge of the Father is what would enable us to proceed restfully to God; when the apostle is asking the Father to strengthen the saints in Ephesians 3, he speaks about

• "according to the riches of his glory".

• Is that so that their affections might be filled with the riches of the Father's glory in view of their arriving at the full thought suggested in being filled even to all the fulness of God?

S.McC. I would think so, and this section of John's gospel is to impress us with some of the riches of the Father's glory.

A.P.C.L. I was thinking that. I am very thankful for what you say as to that particular matter, because the Father's place is a critical thing, is it not, as in the economy?

S.McC. So that there would be great care in assembly service that the Father's portion should not be diminished, and that the sweetness of the Father's name should not be lost sight of as giving character to the whole dispensation. It is the Father's name that gives character to the dispensation.

— I was thinking of what Mr. H. was referring to as to the Trinity. I thought that John's ministry, really in regard to the recovery of the truth, shows how we arrive at Paul, and that is the question of how we arrive at the Father, because we have the Father here in this chapter. I think it would lead therefore to what Paul says, that it is through Christ and by the Spirit that we have access to the Father.

P.H.H. That was what was in my mind in speaking about the Trinity. Does not that lead us into a position of fulness, you might say? And do we need therefore, to remain, detained in that position, as Mr. McC, has just said, and not to move too quickly or on too small a scale, through the portion which is for the Father.

— That is what I thought. Therefore the arriving at Paul through John really leads to what Paul says in Ephesians 2, as to the moral side; that is, the blood in Ephesians 2 precedes the thought of access. I think the moral side is involved in the statement here, the Father is the only true God.

S.McC. And would you say that we cannot rightly approach the side of what is spiritual, and what is linked with purpose, without the moral side?

— So we are brought nigh by the blood of Christ in Ephesians 2, but access is by the Spirit, it is through Christ and by the Spirit. That I think is the point that should be understood more in the assembly, in the Lord's supper and what follows the Lord's supper.

S.McC. You mean the great value of the Spirit in regard to the access?

— Quite so. The blood is that we are brought nigh; but it does not say access there, the access is by the Spirit. Therefore it is a question of the state of soul really, the state of the saints that is in mind in arriving at the Father.

J.S.E. Have you in mind. Mr. —, that being brought nigh is the divine side of the matter, but "through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father", is what we take advantage of for the enjoyment of relationship?

— I would think so. It is therefore a question of experience in what we are saying, because the question of unity comes in here, and in what we have mentioned already, as to receiving the words in verse 8, "for the words which thou hast given me I have given them, and they have received them". It involves really the words affecting the intelligence of the saints in the assembly.

S.McC. The emphasis on the Spirit as the power for access as bearing on our state is very important, because we have got abundance in the ministry in regard to terms that can express our thoughts,

• but what the Lord seems to be getting at all the time is our state, in relation to the spiritual side of the worship of God.

A.W. Is there a reference to the Spirit in "these things Jesus spoke" in that verse, because Jesus spoke of the Spirit?

S.McC. That is very good.

E.C.L. Is there a way in which the Father serves us in this matter? I am thinking of the way the Lord seems to hand over the men to the Father, whom He had kept "in thy name".

• Later on, too, in verses 16 and 17 and also in Ephesians 3, being strengthened by the Father's spirit. Do we have the Father's service in helping us to the further side of the worship of God?

S.McC. I think so. I think the Lord here is impregnating their minds and souls with the thought of the Father, and the Father's name, and I think the Spirit now would do so.

• The Lord has gone on high, He is still, of course, the Minister of the sanctuary,
  • but the Spirit augments the whole matter of the praise, and He would keep the Father, the Father's renown, the Father's name before us.

• I think what Mr. W. has referred to in that sense is very interesting, at least I have not noticed it before, if we could just refer to it for a moment.

• In verse 1 it says "These things", well, what is that? that Jesus spoke. It refers to what has gone before in chapters 13 to 16, and the whole subject in this section is the access, "I come to thee". Therefore what Mr. W. points to is important,
  • "These things Jesus spoke"

• would have a reference to what the Lord has said in regard to the Spirit.

J.S.E. Would "these things" include His allusions to the Father, in His words to His own?

S.McC. I think they do. All the way through, they involve the Father, they involve the Spirit, they involve Himself, they involve the truth. But the Spirit has a peculiar part in what the Lord is stressing in the truth running alongside of the knowledge of the Father.

J.McK. As helping us into the fulness and gain of these relationships.

— "These things" in verse 1 of chapter 17 allude to chapter 17, do they not? I think the "these things" of chapter 16 would point to what Mr. W. says. But I submit that, "These things Jesus spoke, and lifted up his eyes to heaven and said", I think refers to what He was going to say. Is not that so?

S.McC. I had not understood it in that light. I thought it referred to what had gone before.

— Maybe it does, but I had never looked at it in that way.

S.McC. It says, "These things Jesus spoke, and lifted up his eyes to heaven". Would that not indicate that the lifting up of His eyes to heaven was after He had spoken?

— I thought it was a new subject in this chapter, it was what He was proceeding into, but the thing is right in any case, that is, the "these things" in chapter 16 would include the Spirit. He begins, chapter 16, "These things I have spoken unto you".

S.McC. My understanding of it is that "These things Jesus spoke", refers to the previous chapters, and then "and lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, Father, the hour is come" brings us into John 17.

G.R.C. Could we have another word as to Ephesians? Chapter 2 has been quoted, as to access to the Father, but could we have a word as to chapter 3, where the apostle says

• "in whom we have boldness and access in confidence by the faith of him", verse 12?

• Would it be right to think that the access of chapter 2 of Ephesians would link with what is said in John 13, as to the Lord departing out of this world to the Father, and chapter 3, would be more
  • "he came out from God and was going to God"?

• I believe Mr. — has made some remarks on those two chapters recently, but I was not present.

— Well, I think that what we have understood in chapter 2, is that we arrive at the Father through Christ and by one Spirit. But in Ephesians 3 we are strengthened by the Father's Spirit; it is the Father's Spirit, the thought is carried forward in the Father. That is what I understand.

G.R.C. So that you mean there we arrive at the fulness of God. The Father helps us in that.

— By the Father's Spirit, it is the Spirit in that connection, that is the Father's Spirit.

S.McC. We get the thought of access, too, in Ephesians 3. It is very remarkable how it comes in there in verse 11,

• "according to the purpose of the ages, which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and access in confidence by the faith of him".

• That is the access is linked with the faith side in chapter 3, whereas it is linked with the Spirit in chapter 2.

G.R.C. And so the Father would strengthen us by His Spirit that Christ might dwell in our hearts by faith. Does not that suggest that the whole realm is now before us, in connection with the fulness of God?

S.McC. And is it not to stress that we are still in the faith state; we have not reached the thing in actuality?

• Chapter 2 bears on our state in our relations with one another. The work of reconciliation in chapter 2 involves unity of affection between Jew and Gentile, and between the brethren, affecting the state of the brethren in their relations with one another.

• But when you come to chapter 3, it is the realm of God, in which the mystery of God is seen, and faith seems to be stressed. Chapter 3 bears on our state in relation to God and the realm of God.

A.P.C.L. Is there a significance therefore, in connection with the access, that in chapter 2 it is "through him", and in chapter 3, it is "in him"? I was thinking that man in Christ has the great scope of the position in mind, has it not?

• One is access to God, we might say, but in chapter 3 it is a question of the one in whom we have that access. Would that be right?

S.McC. So that the "through him" is instrumentality, the "in whom" involves the status – "the assembly in Christ Jesus".

A.J.G. Chapter 2 is specifically to the Father, whereas chapter 3 is general, is it not, we have boldness and access?

S.McC. Without referring to the Person you mean. Just so.

C.J.H.D. The prepositions 'by' are different in the two verses.

• "By one Spirit" is 'in the power of',

  and in verse 12 of chapter 3,

• "by the faith of him" is 'by means of the faith of him'

• Does that help at all?

S.McC. Say something more as to what you understand about it.

C.J.H.D. I thought there was something personal in the way of our access to the Father, in the power of one Spirit, the unifying effect that that would have upon us.

• Whereas, the expression as to faith in chapter 3: 12 is an instrumental matter,
  • "we have boldness and access in confidence by the faith of him".

• That appears to be an instrumental matter.

S.McC. Yes. It is "the faith of him". "Through him" in chapter 2 is the instrumentality in the Person in the mediatorial position. "The faith of him" brings in a characteristic thought emphasising faith.

A.C.P.L. But then, it is right to see that that access is said to be in the Person. By means of the faith indicates, as you say, that we are still in that position. But is not the access said to be in that Person?

S.McC. Yes. "In whom we have boldness and access in confidence by the faith of him".

A.P.B. Could we ask who is referred to in the "him" at the end of that verse?

S.McC. I take it it is Christ Jesus our Lord, the One in whom we have the boldness and access.

J.McK. Does it involve mediatorship, specially in this realm?

S.McC. Well, it does. The whole realm stresses the need of it, so the Christ, the great Operator, is dwelling through faith in our hearts, in the very centre of this great realm of God.

J.McK. Do you think that in a practical way in the service, it is important to be in the joy of relationship before we can expand to God in relation to the whole realm?

S.McC. I think it is. We have often gone over it, the name of Father and the relationship into which God has come in that light is to enrich our souls, and to help us on the lines of greater intimacy; so that when we come into the general position linked with God as Christ's God, we are not overawed by the majesty of who He is, as exalted as Head above all.

G.R.C. Is that why the word 'boldness' is added in Ephesians 3? With the Father there is everything attractive, there would be no thought of fear, but in Ephesians 3, it is "in whom we have boldness and access".

S.McC. That is interesting, so that eternal life and then sonship, which comes in at the end of this chapter, are to help us so that we should be without fear, without fear or pressure of death, because in the assembly we are in a deathless state of things, and then we have sonship, bringing in liberty.

J.McM. Would verse 24 of chapter 17 help in this,

• "Father, as to those whom thou hast given me, I desire that where I am they also may be with me, that they may behold my glory"?

• Does that link with the faith of Him, that Man there?

S.McC. I suppose that verse conveys to us the Lord's desire that we should see His special distinctiveness and uniqueness in this realm that He speaks of, "where I am they also may be with me".

• As has often been noted, we do not share in that glory; there is nothing in it that we share in, it is what is distinctive to Himself; we contemplate it.

W.McK. In view of spiritual intelligence in unity and balance in the service of God, could I enquire if the Lord's words here, stressing the Father so greatly, are to imply that the Father should have the greatest portion in the service of God? There seems to be some lack of clarity about that among us.

S.McC. I should think we would have to take the scripture, and the teaching in the scripture as it appears, and where it appears, and John would, in his ministry, impress us with the thought of God in the parental relation.

• That is the great thought in John's ministry, that God has come into the relationship of fatherhood; and there is a glory attaching to that that is to affect us.

E.C.M. Is that why stress is laid on the quality of love here, in view of the radiation of those affections in the assembly?

S.McC. It is to help us in that way as to the quality and the richness that enter into assembly service.

W.M.B. Could I ask a question as to the help we may need as to the distinctive glory of the Father, in Himself, as apart from our enjoyment of relationship with Him?

• Do we need help and liberty as to the worship of the Father Himself?

S.McC. I think John's ministry would help us as to that, because the Lord refers to the thought of the Father Himself, and we are to think of that.

• It is not only what He is, in the sweetness and preciousness of the relationship in which we stand to Him and He to us,
  • but we are to think of His personal glory, and the choiceness that is linked with it as in this gospel.

W.M.B. I wondered if that would help in relation to Mr. H.'s question as leading us to the fullest thoughts about God.

S.McC. I think it would.

P.H.H. And would we get in the Lord's utterances to His Father in the gospels, specially John, something which would help us greatly to speak in richness to the Father?

• What Mr. B. speaks of is also a matter of enquiry, I would suggest, because very often we have limited ourselves to the position of blessedness in which we, as the saints, are before the Father. But to go on to speak to the Father about Himself, and His glory, is not so readily with us.

S.McC. J.T. often referred to the relationship into which God came in fatherhood.

• He said that He took up a relation well known in the human family, the relation of father. In the human family, there is the father, and the children; there is the sweetness of the link between the father and the children.

• But then there is what the father is himself, which may stand related to other things beside the children, and the father's glory would be bound up in that personal side, I would think.

A.J.G. Do you think the very fact that He not only has the assembly before Him, but also takes pleasure in many families, heavenly and earthly, shows what He is, what the expansiveness of His love is, and His desire to be known in that tender relationship throughout the whole universe?

S.McC. Yes. So that in the sense and enjoyment in our souls of the relationship between us, we would love to think of Him as He would stand out related to other things as

• the "Lord of the heavens and of the earth",

• and as putting His impress upon the many families.

P.L. The Father's house setting forth an eternal family sphere, filled with the shining of the Father to the satisfaction of His own love.

S.McC. All that would help us to see the importance of the Father. Mr. Taylor taught us that the Father not only puts His impress on this dispensation, but He puts His impress on the eternal state into which we are going.

• If that laid hold of our souls, we would see the magnitude of what is involved in the thought of the Father, the majesty and the greatness of what is linked with the thought of the Father.

A.H. Did not Mr. Darby refer to the angels being brought into it as well?

S.McC. It says "the tabernacle of God is with men", well, where are the angels? We must make room for the angels, it may include abstractly the angels, because the tabernacle of God with men is an abstract thought.

W.R.M. Does the word 'Father' always refer to one Person? It says in 1 Peter 1: 17

• "And if ye invoke as Father him who, without regard of persons, judges according to the work of each, pass your time of sojourn in fear".

• The matter of judgment comes up in connection with the Father.

S.McC. I would say that is one Person that is on our view, concretely, but abstractly, we must keep in mind that we are in a realm that involves all three Persons. In John 5 we have the word,

• "for neither does the Father judge any one, but has given all judgment to the Son", and Hebrews 12 says we have come "to God, judge of all".

• I would say, in verse 17 of 1 Peter, that the Father personally is in mind, as God, in that setting, in His fatherly care of us in holiness.

A.P.C.L. Is not the point of that passage that it is "if ye invoke as Father"? It is a question of God being before us, but as Father, in that Person.

S.McC. That is important. It is God as Father. And that helps as to Hebrews 2, which bears on the service of God. The context always helps us, that God in the parental relation is before us in Hebrews 2.

• The teaching of Hebrews generally bears on the majesty of God, and the greatness of that Being, but then, chapter 1 opens up with God Son-wise, God speaking Son-wise.

• But chapter 2 deals with God Father-wise, it is God in the parental relation, bringing many sons to glory.

W.C. Will you say why, when it speaks of the Father in relation to the families in Ephesians 3 and goes on to speak of His Spirit and so on strengthening, it says "that the Christ may dwell", not that the Son may dwell? Is that leading God-ward, so to speak, the passage finishing up with the fulness of God?

S.McC. I think it is in that sense, because it is the faith state, and the great Operator is still before us. We are still in the faith state, it is leading us on to the fringe of eternity, but it is still the faith state, and the Christ the great Operator by which we are reaching eternity, as it were, is in the centre of our affections.

A.P.C.L. Would you be free to tell us now the final thought of unity that you have before you, in the closing part of chapter 17?

S.McC. I think it is very affecting to see the way that divine Persons are bound up with One Another, and we are bound up with them, and we are bound up with one another in this holy realm of infinite love, yet we are finite in it. What can we say about it?

• I think it would help us to see the value of the Spirit. We have been referring to the access by the Spirit, and while the Spirit is not formally alluded to here, how could this be possible apart from the Spirit? And therefore the essential need that our state should be right.

Ques. What do we understand by the expression "one in us", near the end of verse 21?

S.McC. It says "that they may be all one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us".

• It is a perfect state of love, persons in one another in a perfect state of love. You cannot have it apart from a perfect state of love, moral issues with us must be solved and settled. It is by the Spirit of course; it is not just by thought in the mind.

P.H.H. Does that help us to understand what you were saying about the Spirit as the binding power?

S.McC. We heard about that before the Lord took His beloved servant, and it always affected one. We would like to have heard more about it, but J.T. referred to this section, and how divine Persons are bound up with One Another, in the holy arrangement linked with the economy, and how the saints are bound up with Them in such holy nearness and intimacy.

• The thing is profound, and it brings out the distinctness and uniqueness of the assembly's capacity and formation, that she is so near to the Deity, as contemplated in the arrangement here.

A.W.G.T. Does the latter part of verse 21 indicate that that is in view of the day of display?

S.McC. Yes, the millennial world would be in mind there. But Mr. —, you remember your father making the reference, in that reading in Nostrand Avenue, to the remarkable way in which divine Persons were bound up together in the economy, and the way the saints were bound up together.

— Quite so. So it gives us an experience as together; that is the experiences together in these meetings should have that result, so that we have the Father, and the Son, and we are with Them in it.

S.McC. Do you not think the way we are bound up together is a good note to finish with? By the Spirit is a very real living and practical matter, would you say?

— It is really the proof of things, that we experience in these meetings, that God is here, that is that the Father and the Son, and we – the men – are bound up with them by the Spirit.

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KEY  TO  INITIALS
SPIRITUAL UNITY IN THE MINISTRY OF JOHN London, June, 25-27, 1957 Stanley McCallum Names are from various sources and believed to be accurate. ? = uncertainty; initial ? = as to name; final ? = as to locality. There are a number of initials for which names are not known.
Leonard G. Baker, Stratford Ralph G. Ball, Bromley Alec E. Barnes, Wembley ? Alec Bennett London Dr. A. Paul Bodman, Bristol E. J. Boyt, Manchester Walter M. Brown, Harrow Hubert Calvey, Southport W. Chesterfield, London Gerald R. Cowell, Hornchurch ? J. W. Cruttenden, Brighton J. O. T. Darton, ? C. J. H. Davidson, London ? J. W. Devenish, London ? Wm. Dickson, Edinburgh J. S. Ephgrave, Waltham Cross ? W. [F.] Flowerdew, London Alfred J. Gardiner, London Thos. J. Gratten, London ? John Gulley, London Percy H. Hardwick, London Charles Hammond, London ? Josiah Harper, Colwyn Bay John P. Hazell, London Alfred Helen, Teddington Wm. Henderson, Glasgow Elliott E. Hoyte, New York R. T. Humphris, ? Banbury H. A. Hutson, London ? Charles Kernahan, Belfast A. P. Cecil Lawrence, Stornoway Percy Lyon, London ? John Mason, Belfast Willie R. Mason, Londonderry	? J. G. May, Gillingham or J. Gordon Mathison, ? Stanley McCallum, Detroit James McKay, Leeds Wm. McKay, Sunbury ? J. McMullon, High Wycombe C. Musgrave Menzies, South Africa Dr. Arthur Morford, London E. C. Muggleton, Croydon A. E. Myles, ? ? H. J. Page, Watford ? G. Port, Swindon Wm. C. Powell, London Alan C. S. Price, Barnet H. F. Redfearn, Croydon E. C. Remmington, Watford J. B. Sandford, Middlesbrough ? F. G. Seaman, Havering/Ilford Jack T. Seville, Manchester M. P. Simmons, ? W. W. Smart, Glasgow W. S. Spence, Bournemouth Dr. Robert W. Stollery, New Jersey A. L. R. Tilly, Haringey Arthur W. G. Turner, Calne W. J. Turner, King's Lynn or W. J. Turner, Chippenham ? Harry Voyzey, Glasgow ? H. Webb, Ilford ? Alfred Wellershaus, Endbach Matthew A. White, Londonderry ? R. Wood, ? F. V. Woodford, Woking

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