| READING 3 |
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| SPIRITUAL UNITY IN THE MINISTRY OF JOHN (3) 1 John 1: 1-7; John 4: 31-38; 6: 66-71 |
S.McC. The feature of our subject which we are considering together, namely spiritual unity in the ministry of John, will bear this morning on the ministry and the ministers, and also on the saints, too, as affected by the ministry and the ministers.
— The "we" that comes in the first epistle would be the apostles, I suppose, and that they were united in what they were saying.
S.McC. That would be a very important matter with ourselves, as the principle comes down. We see what is distinctive in that way, to the apostles, but it would have a reflex right down to the assembly.
— So that we get a pattern in the way the Lord set up things in the apostles, which we would not assume to be in our day, in the same sense, but the spirit of it is what the Lord has set up; it should be united.
S.McC. It is the important feature which the Lord would stress over against what the enemy is doing in the mystery of iniquity, in seeking to unite that which really displaces the doctrine of the Christ.
A.J.G. So that the early believers persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles. Would that ensure unity, and the quality that you spoke of?
S.McC. It would. And the Spirit has come, and remains here; He has not left the position, despite what has come into the dispensation. He came in Acts 2, and He remains all the way through the dispensation, and His great end is that that quality should be maintained in the assembly, in the saints.
T.J.G. Do we get the idea of quality in verse 1, seen in the intimate and substantial communion with the Lord Jesus Himself?
S.McC. We are reminded in these verses of eternal life in testimony here, and the Lord's place in manhood, and of that wonderful plane of things seen in the Father and the Son where eternal life was witnessed to in such a unique and remarkable way. Think of the level of it, the dignity of it, the quality of it!
A.J.G. So that in John 17 the Lord says, speaking to His Father,
S.McC. I am sure it does, I had thought earlier to read in Revelation 21, to see how the twelve apostles of the Lamb stand out in the twelve foundations of the city, but our time is limited and we have quite a few scriptures on hand.
C.M.M. Would Peter standing up with the eleven, in Acts 2, give character to this principle from the very start?
S.McC. It would. There we see the authority that enters into the apostolic teaching and doctrine. Peter was fully supported by the eleven; there was no thought of any subverting of what Peter was saying. He stands up with the eleven; he was fully with the eleven, and the eleven were fully with him.
H.C. We have in Ephesians 2 what is built upon
S.McC. Yes, it would point to that, because the apostles have a peculiar place in the foundation. Paul comes in later in his own distinctive setting in regard to the heavenly side, but the twelve stand out in these verses in the uniqueness of their part in the fellowship that they had with the Father and the Son.
G.R.C. Does the Lord's first request for unity in John 17: 11 bear on this,
S.McC. Exactly. There are three features of unity as we know, that stand out in John 17, and that first one particularly sets out the unity linked with the apostolic position.
G.R.C. Is it not a marvellous thing that the dispensation began with twelve men of whom there is no record of any disunity or friction?
S.McC. It is a very remarkable thing. And the fact that that number is so expanded on our view, in the assembly and the holy city, would show what a unified result there is in public testimony in the vessel, the city.
W.S.S. Is it important for us to see that the spiritual unity, and the quality that accompanies it, actually existed in the early days described in the Acts of the Apostles.
S.McC. The early days of the Acts help us to see the quality that there was amongst the saints, and our concern should be that that quality should not deteriorate in us, as coming in at the end.
P.H.H. Is that what is in mind in the word 'report', verse 3,
S.McC. Just so. The Spirit of God, while not formally referred to in this section, underlies the whole matter as it is communicated to others. As the report comes down, the Spirit of God is in it, and thus the pure, and right strain in quality is maintained.
A.J.G. Does the message in verse 5 come in with a view to preserving the quality,
S.McC. I thought so. And we have the reference to the blood of Christ in this particular relation, as cleansing us from all sin.
J.McK. Do we have to go back to the relations between the Father and the Son for the character of it? I was thinking of the way it was presented,
S.McC. I think it is. How precious it is to think of the eternal life that is witnessed to in that environment!
J.O.T.D. Does the expression in verse 4,
S.McC. It is a great matter that things should be full with us. The enemy wants to hinder this arrival at what is full. You will remember that yesterday reference was made in the epistle to "full wages". John says to the elect lady,
Ques. Would the contrast to this be seen in the report of the spies in Numbers 13?
S.McC. You mean in the unbelieving ones, but the quality of it was maintained in Caleb and Joshua. That is what we want to get our eye on. It may not have been maintained in all, but the point is to see where it is maintained.
E.C.L. Do you think that Paul gives us an example of what you are saying when he went up to Jerusalem to lay before those there what he had? He says in Galatians 2,
S.McC. I think it is very interesting to see that line in Paul, and how he was concerned that things should not deteriorate with him. He was very careful even about his own body, lest he should become a castaway, lest the truth should be discredited in that way.
P.H.H. Does that open the question about the report, that which we have seen and heard? Is it some kind of independency of thought or view which brings in this deterioration – not maintaining the level of what is seen and heard?
S.McC. I think it is. I am sure, I speak from my own side, that those of us that have served, we may go down the list, and see all that we are committed to, and what we have in mind to do; but are we concerned that the quality linked with these verses should be carried through? It is important that it should be, if the saints are to be rightly affected in regard to spiritual unity.
M.A.W. Is that what Peter is concerned about in Acts 1, in the kind of man that would be needed to fill the twelfth place?
S.McC. Look what care there was, as to the selection, especially as we think of what had transpired in relation to Judas, who had defected so badly.
G.P. Is this matter of quality guarded by Paul in 2 Corinthians 1, when he says
S.McC. I think that is very helpful at this juncture, because it was over against the abundance of gift and ministry that there was in Corinth.
M.H.T. In the opening of the Acts, we have the reference to Peter and John going up together to the temple, and then the word,
S.McC. That brings up the matter of results. What are the results? Peter and John were seen in such brotherly relations; they were so unified, they could say "Look on us".
W.S.S. In verse 1 of the epistle it says
S.McC. I am sure it would. Therefore it behoves us to consider what was referred to in verse 5, that is, a message is how things are coming to us, and coming down to us,
W.S.S. Hinder our contemplation of all that has shone forth in the Person of our Lord Jesus Christ.
S.McC. That is it. Is there anything that might darken the revelation of God in the apprehension of it in our souls as we might say, speaking broadly?
G.R.C. So that the superlative quality lies in the fact that the Word has become flesh, a divine Person has set it out. Would you say a word in that connection as to the meaning of the beginning here,
S.McC. I think he is alluding to what has come in in relation to Christ, His coming into manhood. The neuter word 'that' refers to the substantial character of that which appeared in this world, as Christ came on to the scene in manhood.
— The expanse that you referred to last night comes in in the beginning of Scripture.
S.McC. It does, and as time works out we see how God's original thought as to the expanse has been tampered with, so that the enemy comes into it, and persons under his influence come into it. Ultimately all that will be met; but I think, as perhaps you would think too, that the question would be raised with all of us as to how we are in it.
— I would think, therefore, the conflict enters into the expanse, because the references you made last night fit in with what we have got here, in relation to the apostles.
S.McC. I am sure we should note carefully this matter in these verses as to
– John is very specific, and very defined in what he says –
G.R.C. Is that what is in mind in the reference to the expanse? Do you mean that if we walk in the light as He is in the light, it is like the greater light set in the heavens, on the fourth day typically pointing to God and light as to Him in full expression?
S.McC. That is what I thought. The expanse contains the ruling class according to God, but then, how did Hymenaeus and Philetus get there? How did Jannes and Jambres get there? That shows how the divine thought has been entrenched upon by evil, wicked men, who have erred as to the truth.
J.M. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 4: 2,
S.McC. I understand that is the idea of the expanse. That bears on the expanse, the manifestation, where the ruling class will be manifested and displayed. The world to come will be a great expression of that.
C.J.H.D. Ezekiel, in chapter 1, in a dark day, sees the expanse as the look of the terrible crystal. Would that bear on the need of absolute purity in regard of the expanse?
S.McC. It would. So that we have the allusion to the blood of Jesus Christ, and then, in the part that was not read, to the advocacy of Christ.
T.J.G. Would you say something on the word 'cleanseth' in this connection, having in mind that it is blood, and not water?
S.McC. Well, it is the value and efficacy of the blood here, not the water.
W.McK. Would this word "in him" have an inward bearing on us?
S.McC. Well, it is to reflect on us in that way, as to whether there is any darkness in us; it is a solemn thing if darkness is allowed in us.
W.McK. Would the vital matter therefore be our inward links with the Spirit, the Person who is in us, to maintain this feature?
S.McC. I think it is important, as we have said, that while the Spirit is not alluded to formally. He underlies this matter of how we are to be sustained in regard to what is set before us in testimony in these verses.
R.G.B. Are we to be encouraged in the sense that the divine system of help is fully equal to the maintenance of the divine standard? I was thinking of the blood of Christ, and the advocacy of Christ and the presence of the Spirit.
S.McC. It touches you to think of the much provision that has been made that we might be free, and clear of all that would hinder our being in the gain of what has come down to us.
W.C. Would there be the thought in the last Psalm,
S.McC. It is important that we have that in our souls, that while the enemy has invaded the expanse, it will eventually be cleared, and God will show publicly the victory that has been won.
P.H.H. Would the expression used by Paul in 2 Timothy 2: 2, help in this,
S.McC. That is what Paul has in mind. Things are to be continued and the truth is to be handed down without attenuation, without weakening, right through to the end of the dispensation. There is no thought of reduction in the quality.
A.E.M. I would like to ask you a question, although it may take us back a bit. We got away from a suggestion that Mr. Taylor ministered some years ago, not to take fellowship meetings at a long date. We have some brothers who enter into engagements nine months ahead. What do you say about that?
S.McC. Perhaps the passage in John 4 will now help us. The Lord brings in the matter of time,
A.E.M. Have the brethren got a part in this matter?
S.McC. They have. Both the ministers, and those ministered to enter into the matter, I think, as to what we are committed to, and what is taken on, I am sure it is important.
M.P.S. Might I ask which way round it should be approached by us? Do we arrange a meeting, and desire to find a brother to serve, or is the exercise to have a particular brother among us, and then arrange a meeting?
S.McC. Well, the desire comes up with the brethren to have a gathering of the saints to make way for the truth, and to promote the idea of fellowship.
A.C.S.P. When Mr. Taylor raised this matter at Bristol some years ago, did he not draw a big distinction between the need to arrange a meeting, possibly because a hall had to be booked, and the need to ask a servant too far ahead?
S.McC. Therefore there would be a difference in regard to three-day meetings of this character, where a hall has to be arranged for, and many arrangements have to be made in regard to the comfort and accommodation of the brethren.
| 'Fellowship meetings' were for a Saturday, one day, only and for the local brethren and those in the immediate district. 'Special meetings' were for three days and brethren from a greater distance were invited. |
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A.H. Would what you are remarking have its bearing on engagements to preach the gospel?
S.McC. I should think the brethren, in considering over these matters, would have wisdom.
G.R.C. Is not that a matter that we might think about – flexibility? If arrangements are made, they should be truly held as provisional, and subject to the Lord's will, so that on both sides there is a readiness to release the matter.
S.McC. I think that is right. There should be the element of flexibility in making room for others so that if a person has been asked to serve, and another comes along, and has gift or ability, surely we would make room for such if it was felt that he was sent by the Lord.
G.R.C. I was thinking of Paul's outlook in Romans 15, he has got a long programme before him, he says,
S.McC. In the sense in which Paul alludes to it. And in the sense in which you are coming to America, the brethren are looking forward to that, and meetings have been arranged for; we are not referring to that.
G.R.C. Yes, I think if that was held it would help us a lot, because sometimes when a commitment is made provisionally by a brother, the brethren do not like it much if he says later that he does not feel free to carry it out.
S.McC. We must be subject to the Lord's commission, to the Lord's sending. If indication comes about that the Lord has not sent you, well, we are to take account of that, but a servant would not be careless as to what he is committed to.
R.T.H. It says in Mark 3: 14, "And he appointed twelve that they might be with him and that he might send them …".
P.L. What about the three Lord's days at Thessalonica? Should not liberty be afforded for a brother to continue for that period if he finds confirmation as he proceeds? Sometimes a brother is invited immediately afterwards, making it impossible to carry out that period.
S.McC. It is important that we should make room for Paul's principle in that way; it was his custom apparently, and we would be governed, in some measure, by Paul's custom in that sense.
A.H. You raised a very interesting matter a moment ago, as to being sent. We answer pretty much to "Come and he comes". But the man said to another "Go and he goes". Do you think we are sufficiently sensitive as to this matter of that word?
S.McC. I think we should be more sensitive as to being sent, that we do not have to wait on an invitation to go to a place.
C.M.M. Could you say a little more about the little boy here? There seem to be peculiar difficulties in the British Isles, and I have wondered whether, where the saints discern quality developing, room should not be made for younger men?
S.McC. I think it is important that we should recognise what is amongst us, and what the Lord is doing.
W.McK. In the passage quoted from Romans 15. Paul says
S.McC. Just so, but keeping in mind the day of brokenness in which we are, because it is important that we should not take too high ground.
H.W. Things did not degenerate with Philip, either in desert conditions, or at Azotus?
S.McC. No, they did not. One has been thinking a little of late in regard to doing what one's hand finds to do, because I suppose that is the principle on which most of us go.
P.L. "And as they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, Separate me now Barnabas and Saul", Acts 13: 2.
S.McC. Showing how important it is to recognise the Spirit in authority in the matter of distributions, and in the work that has to be done.
F.G.S. Does Haggai set out the matter? He speaks of himself as
S.McC. It is important that we should be that. We are not concerned about our reputations or the amount of meetings that we take, or whether we take three-day meetings or not, because after all, the platform here does not make the man.
J.S.E. Is there some significance in pursuance of that, in that Andrew figures more largely in John, where there is nothing official, than he does where things are official?
S.McC. That is very interesting. Say something more about it.
J.S.E. It was he who introduced the little boy, and the Lord seemed to take the matter on, and, as Mr. Taylor pointed out many years ago, it is not said in that chapter that He made use of the disciples in the distribution, He did it Himself.
S.McC. Mr. Taylor made a remark years ago which one closely observed at the time, and it affected one: he referred to the fact that we should be dexterous enough to avoid what is official.
A.P.C.L. Would verse 34 preface what you have been saying,
S.McC. Very good, I was going to refer to that earlier, and I am glad you have brought it in, because, where were they? Look at the important work that was going on and was being done. Where were they?
— Would that verse, verse 34, stress the point that has been before us? "That I should do the will of him that has sent me". I think there is more in the thought of being sent than there is in the thought of invitation.
S.McC. I think so too myself. One is more concerned about the matter of being sent than the number of invitations that are received.
A.P.C.L. So that service is never regarded as an object in itself. In Ephesians 4 it is "until we all arrive".
S.McC. That is very important; it is not an object in itself. If ministry becomes an object in itself, it will exalt the servant and the result is that there will be disaster – disaster among the saints, and disaster with the servant.
R.W.S. So while it is useful to know who is serving in different parts of the world, and we have a few of the meetings listed, is there not a danger that that might bring in the thought of the clergy and the laity?
S.McC. We want to be dexterous, as we have referred to it, in avoiding what is official, and in what would have anything for the flesh to make a little of, in ourselves.
E.C.M. Would 1 Corinthians 3: 7 and 8 bear on this. Paul says,
S.McC. The references in Corinthians to the planter and the waterer are very interesting, and the same here with the sower and the reaper. We might want to be planters, but that is a matter of divine commission.
J.W.D. Are your remarks in the way of what is suggestive, or is it authoritative? Do you expect the local assemblies of this country and the Lord's servants to follow your remarks authoritatively about invitations and as to being sent as against being invited?
S.McC. Well now, supposing I were to ask you that question, what would you say?
J.W.D. I would say that we would help them authoritatively.
S.McC. Any remarks that I make are subject to the judgment of the brethren,
J.W.D. But where everything is on a different order, and practised differently, and a kind of 'Oh well, that is alright, but we have done it for so many years, and our meetings are characteristically marked by that'. Well, what about a change?
S.McC. I think we have to allow for wisdom in the saints, and judgment among the saints. In the light of the priesthood in Numbers, we are to discern what is ministered, and to take account of what is ministered, and as to whether the Lord is in it or not. That is all I would say.
A.H. Is not John specially selected by the Spirit to bring forward this very matter you are stressing, inasmuch as he is completely free from what is official himself, and a vessel to be used by the Spirit to stress this feature of the truth?
S.McC. Just so. Therefore we should be concerned as to whether in what we do, and the service that we carry on in doing what our hand finds to do, we are near to the Lord, as to whether we know what it is to be near to Him in that sense, as John was, bearing in mind his uniqueness and the special place John had.
R.W. Is this matter of mutuality seen in the way Barnabas sought out Saul?
S.McC. Yes, it is. Mr. Taylor referred to him many years ago, saying he was the unjealous introducer of his more gifted brother Paul.
–.J. Is this matter of being sent characteristic of John's gospel? We also have the word in Isaiah 6, "Whom shall I send?" And then, after some exercise, Isaiah says, "Here am I; send me".
S.McC. Well, in that sense we should all be available; that is, it brings up the matter as to whether we are available. I might like to go to a nice place, where the weather was nice, and the like.
W.S.S. Paul was very simple and unofficial when he said,
S.McC. I think we have to see the need at the present time for the unofficial side, yet moving under the Lord's hand with a sense of a commission, for gift involves having a commission and how can gift serve without a sense of commission? If there is no sense of commission, how can you serve rightly in the sense in which we are referring to it?
P.L. And is not the commission bound up with vision, as with Moses, Isaiah and others?
S.McC. Yes. So that in the final chapter that we read, the Lord brings this matter up with the twelve; that is, he is testing the unity that is there. He does not speak directly to Peter, He says, verse 67,
A.P.C.L. So he is referred to as Simon Peter?
S.McC. What do you make of that?
A.P.C.L. I thought it was the man that you have been speaking about, not only from the divine side, but from the side of what he was as Simon, and brought into things.
S.McC. Exactly. The linking of Simon with the name Peter would bear that out; it is important to see that. Simon Peter answered him,
A.J.G. Do you think that the fact that he says "we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God" shows that he recognised the necessity for moral suitability to be found with those who minister?
S.McC. You feel it is very important that in dealing with the holy things of truth, and the holy things of God, that there should be moral suitability and consistency in those who set them forth. So that the Lord goes on, verse 70,
P.C. Would Peter's reference to the Lord as "the holy one of God" link with verse 39 of chapter 5, where the Lord speaks of the Scriptures as "they it is which bear witness concerning me"? Does everything culminate in the Person?
S.McC. That is helpful. It shows that the whole scope of the testimony bears on Christ, and this chapter is a question of food, and how persons are constitutionally and what they are built up in relation to.
| READING 4 |
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| SPIRITUAL UNITY IN THE MINISTRY OF JOHN (4) John 10: 7-18, 27-30; 11: 1-6, 32-44; 12: 1-8 |
S.McC. These passages that we have read bring on to our view the thought of unity as seen in the one flock, and then in the circumstances at Bethany we have the thought of the family, figuratively setting out, as it does for us, the family of God.
A.J.G. Would you say what is the distinctive thought connected with the flock?
S.McC. It brings up an interesting point, in relation to the sheep. It is not a question of how sheep are born, how they come into existence, but, as we know in John 10, it is a question of what the sheep are, and the features that mark the sheep that are there that the Lord as the Shepherd takes account of.
A.J.G. Perhaps you would open that out a little more.
S.McC. Well, the great thought of "leading out", and "putting forth" is prominent in the service of the shepherd, and Colossians views the Lord in His influence upon the saints in relation to what is outside of Judaism, for Judaism adds nothing to the position in Colossians. This section refers to the Lord as leading out, putting forth; His influence is seen in that direction.
G.R.C. Have you in mind that the word "they follow me, and I give them life eternal", would involve following Him over Jordan, according to Colossians?
S.McC. I would think so. In verse 10 we have,
J.S.E. Is there any significance in the fact that the Lord seems to present this side of the teaching to His enemies?
S.McC. I think there is. But would you say something more on what you are thinking of.
J.S.E. Just that He uses this figure of the sheep, on the one hand; it was that which was within the compass of their understanding, but it was to show that they were outside the range of enjoying its operations.
S.McC. So that oftentimes, where the truth comes out in the presence of opposition, there are special touches which we might not have got otherwise. I think that is the setting of John 10.
J.S.E. Has there been over the years, what we might call a spiritual build-up in the truth, coming to light in the presence of enemies, but the enemies not coming into it?
S.McC. So that the line of demarcation becomes more and more distinct, between the opposition to the Lord and His sheep, and what would nominally occupy a position, but not be according to the divine order.
P.H.H. Does the voice become of particular importance in that setting?
S.McC. I think it does. Much is made of the voice in this chapter. And the reference in verse 3 that we did not read, to the porter, is very important in that relation. Who is the porter opening to? The porter is not opening to the thieves and the robbers; the porter is opening to Christ, making way for Christ, the true Shepherd.
J.G.M. Who is the porter?
S.McC. The Holy Spirit would be in mind in the figure of the porter; He opened the way for Christ. As the Lord was baptised, and the heaven was opened, the porter made way for Him. The Holy Spirit was there, and Christ was sealed by the Father, as He entered upon His public service in ministry.
P.H.H. Would the question of the voice stand over against the persuasive speech, and similar things, in the Colossian epistle? It says here that the sheep know his voice, but they know not the voice of strangers.
S.McC. What you refer to is very interesting, because one of the things that enters into the mystery of iniquity, or the mystery of lawlessness and its operating, is speech
P.H.H. So what is connected with the voice is leadership. It says,
S.McC. We are all tested as to whether we know the voice in that way; the characteristic of the sheep is that it knows the voice.
A.H. Do you distinguish therefore between His words, and His voice? We have His voice referred to in chapter 5. I wondered whether you had in mind that the voice really covered the whole range of the truth.
S.McC. The voice peculiarly brings out the personality of Christ, in certain relations. We get the voice of the Bridegroom, the voice of the Son of God, the voice of the Shepherd, in this gospel. Why is John making so much of the voice, his ministry bearing on current conditions in the last days?
L.G.B. Would the word in Revelation 1 bear on it?
S.McC. That is why one was referring to personality, as linked with the voice. John turned to see the voice, and what he saw was the Lord Jesus. Personality is peculiarly linked with the voice.
Ques. Might the Shepherd's voice be heard in these meetings?
S.McC. We sincerely hope it is. We trust it is not the voice of the wolf, or the voice of the thief. We trust that we hear the Shepherd's voice, in gatherings such as these.
E.C.L. Would you connect what is in the body of the saints with the thought of what is in the flock, and how the Lord's voice in the truth is recognised? Is not that sometimes more reliable than one speaking here or one speaking there?
S.McC. So that there is a great value in seeing, in that sense, what there is in the body of the saints.
E.C.L. Does not Paul speak of really protecting that, by way of oversight? The Holy Spirit is seeing to it that that is protected by way of oversight, so that the wolf does not get in.
S.McC. Just so. There is a certain safeguard in what there is in the body of the saints by the Spirit, although, of course, leadership is always required.
J.McK. Would the voice connect with the Lord passing on? We have, at the end of chapter 8, that He was passing on, and it says in the beginning of chapter 9, "as he passed on".
S.McC. So that if we do not recognise the voice we may be left behind; we are not among the sheep of Christ characteristically in that way. It is important to see that this section is full of movement. Here we have the Lord coming in, and going out, and putting forth; and then in the next section, with the family, it is full of movement.
C.H. Would the light of the Son of God, which is in the end of the previous chapter, be carried forward into this chapter? Is the Shepherd the Son of God? He is introducing us into that realm where the Son of God is to be supreme.
S.McC. That is right. And the presentation of the Shepherd and the flock is to draw out feelings, and to bring in the richness and refinement that are linked with the development of feelings in the assembly. Surely there is much room for that, and the enjoyment of life more abundantly would help in that relation.
W.S.S. Does the Lord come first of all into the Jewish fold, and then, calling His own sheep, He leads them out of that, with a view to the formation of the flock?
S.McC. Yes, that is what is in mind.
W.S.S. By application, have we not all got to get out of what is Jewish, to be in the flock?
S.McC. So that John makes a good deal of Jewish opposition; indeed the world, as it is presented in John's gospel, is largely characterised by what is Jewish. I suppose the Jewish element is the most damaging element that John the apostle brings on to our view.
J.McK. Would the several occasions when the emphatic 'I' is used in this section bring into mind who the Person is? I was thinking of the way it occurs in the earlier chapter:
S.McC. I think so; and along with the Person of Christ, in that way, the Father comes in, as in the latter portion of the chapter. The Lord brings the Father in, saying,
A.H. The matter of suffering is brought into this again, but is it of note that the Father loves Him because of that?
S.McC. Yes, the Lord laying down His life furnishes the Father with the motive for loving Him, as we have often heard,
P.H.H. Referring to this matter of the Lord's Person, when He says
S.McC. Yes. John all the way through stresses the Person of Christ. The very opening verse of his gospel draws attention to that, and all the way through the greatness of the Person who is before us in the mediatorial position constantly comes on to our view.
P.H.H. The entering in, as the Lord says, is "by me"; would that mean that presently there will open up to us the greatness of the Lord's person, as shining upon everything in this gospel of John?
S.McC. I think so. In that sense there is a link with Colossians, where the Person of Christ is projected on to our view in a very special way.
— How do you think we get hold of the truth of the door now?
S.McC. I think we arrive at it by response to light as it is presented. As light is presented to us, in regard to the truth and divine thoughts, we come into the gain of what Christ is as the door, and we move in relation to it. Perhaps you would say something as to it?
— In verse 7. He says, "Verily, verily", that is Christ, "I say to you". That is, He is emphasising this point of the door,
S.McC. It is important in that light to see the principle that stands in the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, namely, that you only understand the truth rightly when you move into the circumstances to which the truth applies.
J.McK. Would the idea of hearing the Lord's voice be somewhat instinctive, but would coming to the matter of the door involve understanding and movement?
S.McC. It does. The door is the way in. It is not that the truth is the door; the Lord is saying that He is the door.
E.E.H. Would you say the man in chapter 9 would be one who would be led into the flock by the door?
S.McC. I think he finds the door.
A.W.G.T. Does not that confirm what you said, that we have to be in the circumstances in order to get the gain of the truth? The man in chapter 9 came into the circumstances which enabled him to find the door.
S.McC. The Lord heard he was cast out, and He found him, and presents Himself as the door. He presents the light of another world to him, in His own Person, as the Son of God. But I should like to hear something more, Mr. —, of what is in your mind in regard to the door.
— The Lord further says, in verse 9 again,
S.McC. Do not you think it is linked with the assembly at the present time, in the thought of the one flock, and the one Shepherd? The Lord is presented as the door, but the Lord is not here corporeally now, so that there would be some answer to the thought in what is here in relation to the Spirit.
— So then, the whole matter would be under the Lord in any case. Someone coming in amongst us, it would be a question of the Lord as over it.
S.McC. Just so.
J.H. Is that seen worked out practically with Ananias in connection with Saul of Tarsus?
S.McC. Well, it is. The Lord is over the whole matter in Acts 9; but then we find that under His hand are certain things here below for the Lord says,
M.A.W. Later on in the Acts, in regard of Saul being brought to the apostles, it says
— So would there be two points there? There was what was directly with the Lord, and then what was directly with Ananias, linking with your point of the assembly.
S.McC. I think it is very helpful to see how this is working out in that sense, because, as we were taught years ago in connection with persons coming into things or finding their way into things amongst us, there is no such thought of reception.
C.H. I would like to ask Mr. — if he not only thinks that we recognise the Lord's hand as over things, but that souls have had to do with the Lord for themselves in finding their way.
— Quite so, they have had to do with the Lord. The Lord is the first consideration in the matter. He must be, He says, "I am the door".
C.H. Saul had had to do with the Lord, and the Lord had had to do with him, before he met Ananias.
— That is really the point, I think, that connects here. The Lord says twice, "I am the door". Well, He had got the sheep in mind evidently as an area of things.
A.J.G. Would there be any connection, do you think, with what we have in Hebrews 13? It seems to give the way out, and then the way in there. It says,
S.McC. That is an interesting link, in that way, with what we have here. So that what we are now considering is important, how the Lord stands out in this matter, and how the sheep are viewed as having to do with the Lord in this way.
A.P.C.L. Would the fact that the thought of sheep is used indicate the tenderness that would mark us in dealing with such persons? I am thinking of the way in which the Lord speaks of laying down His life for them.
S.McC. Yes, the sheep in that sense develop the thought of care, they are the objects of care, I suppose,
W.C. Are they not regarded as the Father's gift to Him? He says later,
S.McC. That reference is interesting, for it is a question of divine ownership.
A.J.G. Is that the result of the sheep characteristically hearing His voice, and following? Does it not result in their coming into life eternal?
S.McC. I think that is how the truth is set out here. It says,
G.R.C. Would you say a word as to verse 14, and the kind of knowledge that the sheep have? We usually think of sheep, in the figure that is used, as not having much knowledge, but needing much care.
S.McC. I think the Lord is indicating, in this section what we have in the Colossian side of the truth, which opens up the thought of knowledge.
P.L. "That ye may be filled with the full knowledge of his will, in all wisdom and spiritual understanding", Colossians 1: 9.
S.McC. Just so. It is a knowledge that is not derived from the activity or the influence of the human mind, but a knowledge that is derived from being under the influence of Christ, which Colossians emphasises.
G.R.C. Would you say a word as to the level of it,
S.McC. I thought that that was the divine standard of knowledge that we are brought into, as having part in the mystery, just as we have it, in another relation in 1 Corinthians 13 the great chapter of love,
G.R.C. I cannot say much about it to add to what you have said; it seems so remarkable, "as the Father knows me and I know the Father".
S.McC. I think we are all tested as to this knowledge, and how much of it is apprehended by us, and enjoyed by us. Because it involves the intimate links that we have with divine Persons, especially the collective position being stressed, for this chapter stresses, or emphasises the collective position.
A.J.G. Does it flow out of being characteristically near to the Lord, and attentive to His voice, because the flock normally is never far from the Shepherd, is it?
S.McC. No, it is not. That is why one is emphasising the thought of intimacy in regard of it. It is important that in these days, when there are those who mount up elsewhere, the thieves and the robbers, and when there is the character of the wolf around, that we should keep near to Christ, so as to come under His influence, and under the Father's influence too.
R.G.B. In Colossians 2 you have the thought, of
S.McC. Yes, one has that section in mind, which makes a good deal of man's mind, and man's speech, as it appears there, and as Paul meets it and counteracts it by the presentation of the headship of Christ. We must abide in Christ.
C.M.M. You spoke just now, of restoration. Would you be free to guide us as to what we should look for in one seeking to be again amongst us?
S.McC. Well, does not the Lord take up the matter of restoration in this book? He goes into things with Peter, and not once, nor twice, but three times.
T.J.G. Would you say that when Peter replies to the Lord's third enquiry,
S.McC. Yes. Peter has to learn that he cannot generalise, and just say, Well the Lord knows all things, from the standpoint of omniscience. Well, the Lord does know all things, but then, it is a question of what comes concretely on to view in persons in their restoration.
J.H. Would it not be manifest that they knew His voice?
S.McC. You would look for that. That would be a characteristic in persons that are right in regard to the Lord, and in regard to the truth.
P.H.H. Does the matter of the shaving of the hair, as in Leviticus 14, become an apparent evidence that the man is on the way to restoration?
S.McC. Yes, it is part of the cleansing operations. It is a stripping of all that which attaches to the man personally, in view of his coming into the realm from which he was put out.
J.S.E. At which part of the reading did you introduce restoration? I thought the word was 'reception' that you used. Did not you say that we have to bear in mind what we were taught some years ago that we have no justification to speak of receiving people? Is not that what you said?
S.McC. I did say that, but I also used the word 'restoration' just incidentally, in passing along, referring to what was alluded to in the door, and persons coming into things. It was just casually referred to.
W.C. Does restoration come in more in Luke? The sheep here characteristically are immune, are they not, from these influences? They may be scattered, but in themselves they are preserved. First of all the Lord says they do not hear the voice of the stranger, those that went before Him, and then they follow Him.
S.McC. Yes, we want to see that, in John's gospel the sheep are what they are, there is no question of development with them. But then, certain principles are laid out in regard to the door, and the way in, that govern us in all matters.
R.W.S. Would it be diverting to bring in the prayer meeting, and the care meeting, and personal visiting in the light of Paul's word in Acts 20
S.McC. I think what you are referring to now is important, because we want to see that the thought of the assembly is to weigh heavily with us in all matters;
J.S.E. When you say not two singly, what did you just mean? Do you mean they do not get by themselves?
S.McC. Well, it is "two of you". The whole context is dealing with the augustness of the assembly, and the Lord contemplates what might come into the dispensation, and He says, "If two of you shall agree".
A.J.G. Even though the expression of it is as small as that?
S.McC. Just so. But Dr. S., in regard to what you were saying, would you say more?
R.W.S. Well, shepherds and teachers come as one gift in Ephesians 4. It may be the teaching by itself involves the platform, but would not involve the trials of being a shepherd.
S.McC. It is very important that we see how shepherd feelings, shepherd care and protection come into this chapter in contrast to those that serve for wages.
M.L.J.M. Does Peter's first letter help us, when he says
S.McC. Yes, and it is interesting what is referred to in that relation; it is
— And the shepherd is concerned that the sheep are not scattered; that is his main business.
S.McC. A very important business, too.
J.P.H. Paul says in Acts 20: 33,
S.McC. That is a very remarkable thing, how the Spirit of Christ in Paul comes out in Acts 20, whether as the shepherd, or like the Hebrew bondman, there was the unselfish way in which he was among the brethren, serving, even as he says to the Corinthians
J.W.C. It says of Israel that he "served for a wife, and for a wife he kept sheep", Hosea 12: 12.
S.McC. He is a type of the Lord in that way, in His service, how He served for the assembly.
F.D.W. So it says in Acts 15, "leading men among the brethren".
S.McC. Yes, "among the brethren", not above the brethren.
P.H.H. Would you say a little more about the introduction of the Father in this chapter? The Lord brings it in in verse 15, and it seems to follow throughout the chapter.
S.McC. I think so, and especially emphasising, as it were, the economy and how divine Persons are in the economy in relation to one another and in relation to the saints. You will notice that immediately He brings the Father in in this way in verses 29 and 30, it says,
P.H.H. Yes, I think that is a great help, I was thinking of something like that. We have perhaps the Spirit, in the porter, would you say, and then the economy, in a major way, in the Father and the Son, so that we are handed over to the best.
S.McC. That is it, and we should see the unselfish relations between divine Persons in this holy matter, the unjealous and unselfish relations in regard to the sheep.
W.S.S. Does verse 17 show how the Lord had the Father before Him in relation to the flock, what the flock would mean to the Father?
S.McC. It is all in that setting and environment that we have that.
W.S.S. Would it not link up with the burnt-offering, the Lord's devotedness in securing what would be for the pleasure of the Father eternally?
S.McC. Yes, exactly. John stresses the burnt-offering side, the voluntary side, of the Lord's laying down His life.
Now we must come on to chapter 11. The Father is brought into chapter 11, in verse 41, in regard to the particular matter on hand.
G.R.C. Did you say at the beginning that the family brings out individuality, in contrast to the flock, where we are all viewed alike?
S.McC. I thought that was the setting in which it is viewed here. It says
T.J.G. Would you say a word as to the two words used for love? In regard of Lazarus in verse 3 we have the love of friendship, and when it refers to the women, in verse 5 there is the settled condition idea, in love.
S.McC. Well, we have to make room for attractiveness in the family of God. There was the thought of attractiveness in Christ Himself, and the first word for love bears on that in regard to Lazarus. Why should we take issue with that? If there are those that draw out the love of friendship from Christ, we would delight in the thought of it.
J.McK. Were you thinking that the Lord would bring in something of the glory of the Father, in His operation at the grave?
S.McC. I thought the glory of God really involved that,
P.H.H. Does not that come in confirmatorily in chapter 12, where the Lord is speaking to the Father, and the Father is answering?
and then the voice out of heaven says,
S.McC. Yes. Now in chapter 11, verse 41 follows immediately verse 40, that is, the Lord raises the issue as to the stone, the stone has to be taken away.
E.C.L. Would you be free to say something about the thought of the sisterhood that comes in chapter 11? Some prominence seems to be given to the idea of the sister.
S.McC. It is very interesting how the sisterhood comes in, and especially in regard to this matter of the stone. That is, it is not the Jews that the Lord is speaking to; the Jews are there, but the Lord says, in verse 39,
— So she does not say any more after that. I was thinking it would show the way she was reached, "Jesus says to her". Is it not an affectionate reference – "the sister of the dead"?
S.McC. It is, and an unusual reference, "Martha, the sister of the dead".
A.H. Over against that statement, would you say a word as to verse 2, where the Spirit of God seems to emphasise that Lazarus was Mary's brother?
S.McC. It shows how personality stands out in that way, in Mary. The Spirit of God through John projects her on to our view before the matter of death is dealt with. In chapter 11: 2 John says
T.J.G. Would you say how you are connecting in your mind this matter of the issues to be raised, the corruption, with the thought of the family?
S.McC. We do not like, perhaps, the offensive side to come fully out, but the Lord joins issue with the matter; He said,
Ques. Is that issue met in the fact that they rolled away the stone? While Martha was concerned about the corruption, they rolled away the stone?
S.McC. It is very interesting to see that the moment the Lord meets the issue in Martha's soul, and Martha seems to get help, it says "they took therefore", notice that adverb 'therefore', it does not just say 'they took the stone away', the adverb 'therefore' reflects on verse 40,
Then it says,
A.H. Is not the Lord Jesus declared to be the Son of God by this matter, and does His glory shine out as well?
S.McC. Just so. You are alluding to Romans 1,
A.H. Yes, and the transfer of the whole family on to another ground.
S.McC. Yes, off natural grounds on to spiritual grounds.
W.S.S. Are those spiritual links established at the beginning of chapter 12?
S.McC. Well, they are; we see the power of spirituality there in a realm where Christ is everything – He is the dominating object. Lazarus is not the dominating object, nor Martha nor Mary; the Lord, the Son of God is the dominating object.
J.S.E. Does the expression "they therefore" suggest that there are persons who are following in the current of what Christ is after in the incident?
S.McC. I think so, there is a link in sequence, therefore, with what has preceded, and I believe that the allusion to the pure nard bears on all that has gone before. It suggests that motives are clear, there is nothing opaque, nothing mixed; the result in this scene of spirituality is pure nard, which Mary has.
W.McK. Would you say that as the result of facing the issue, and the operations of Christ in relation to it, that in this chapter we have the odour referred to? The stink had to be faced in the previous chapter, but now the scene is clear morally and we have the odour.
S.McC. Just so, "the house was filled with the odour of the ointment".
A.H. Does this reference to pure nard support your thought as to quality?
S.McC. Exactly. These thoughts are running through, and the note indicates that it is a word difficult of interpretation, but most likely pure. It is a result that is arrived at; it is not only that Mary has it, but it is affecting the assembly as we speak of it, the house being filled with the odour.
W.F. Do you connect the pure nard with the reference in the end of Ephesians 6
S.McC. That is just how I was linking it, in speaking of what is arrived at. It is pure love, pure motives, there is no corrupting element there,
C.J.H.D. Does the fact that the word is difficult of interpretation connect in any way with the work of the Spirit as formed among the saints being in some way inscrutable?
S.McC. That is interesting, because we are in a realm of spirituality, and in relation to what is spiritual, we have the word:
A.W.G.T. Would what you say as to personality in the family be confirmed in the number of references to persons in the epistle to the Colossians, their names being given?
S.McC. Yes. It helps us to value one another in that sense. While, according to Luke, some shadow is cast upon Martha, yet according to John she fits into her place in the scene, and it helps us to value one another in the light of the family of God and its spiritual setting with us.
C.H. Do you mean that the family has arrived at spiritual unity together, especially in relation to Christ?
S.McC. That is what one had in mind. While the family brings out personality in individuals, the result arrived at is unity in a realm where Christ is supreme.
J.P.H. In connection with Martha, it just says in chapter 12, that she served.
S.McC. It is good to see her as she is in chapter 12. She is not cumbered, she has not got too much on hand that is irritating her spirit, she is not complaining about Mary, nor about Lazarus,
A.J.G. So that each one stands out in his own distinctiveness according to the work of God in him.
S.McC. It makes the family of God in that sense such an attractive matter, and we need to see it more in this light, and the value of one another.
A.P.C.L. Would we not also be careful, not to project what comes to light in Judas, the material matter, into such a setting and spoil it?
S.McC. That is very interesting. Judas shows that he is not a sheep of Christ; he shows that he has not got the instincts and feelings of the family of God. I mean, if you give things their proper room and place, they will expose themselves, and Judas exposes himself here.
M.H.T. Does Lazarus supply another link with Colossians, in the reference to being dead, and risen with Christ?
S.McC. He does, that is the setting that corresponds with Colossians, that the saints are viewed as risen with Him by faith of the working of God; they are risen with Christ in that sense.
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