Spiritual Unity in the Ministry of John
Ministry by Stanley McCallum
– Part Two

INTRODUCTION
Spiritual Unity in the Ministry of John London, June 25-27, 1957 Stanley McCallum

This is the fifth set of annual London Meetings after the departure of Mr. James Taylor in March 1953.

• Mr. McCallum also served at the London meetings in 1958.

G.A.R.

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READING  1
SPIRITUAL UNITY IN THE MINISTRY OF JOHN (1) 1 John 5: 6-10; 2 John; 3 John 1-8, 12-14

S.McC. It is proposed that we should look at the subject of spiritual unity in the ministry of John.

• As the brethren would recall immediately at the mention of it, unity has a great place in his ministry. It is a very full and extensive subject in his ministry, entering into all his writings.

• It is proposed that we should look this morning first at unity in relation to the truth, which has such a prominent place in the passages that we have read.

• Then we may, if the Lord should help, go to the Revelation, and see unity in the ministry of John as it appears in the testimonial position in relation to reproach and suffering, and also, in relation to glory, in the administrative setting.

• Then we may go to the gospel of John, for the extensive side of the subject, to see how spiritual unity develops in relation to the servants and their service; and in relation to the flock and the family of God figuratively set out in John's ministry.

• Then we shall need to see how it enters into the great subject of the service of God, where under the hand of the minister of the sanctuary, as in John 17, the great thoughts of unity and oneness are stressed.

• Then entering into it, and running alongside of it, we have the great truths of eternal life, and sonship, and the revelation of God in Christ, all having in mind the promotion of this thought of spiritual unity amongst us.

H.W. Is the same end in view in Paul's ministry, where he presses in all his assembly epistles, the truth of the cross?

S.McC. Yes, you can see what a place the water had with Paul. I am sure it raises the question with all of us, as to the place that the water has with us, not just in teaching, and what is set out

• but the place that the water has in our souls, whether we are marked by a purified state in our souls.

• If we minister or serve without being marked by a purified state, pure motives and pure thinking, we are bound to impart that to those that we minister to and serve. It is bound to have a reaction in them, with a result that corresponds.

M.A.W. Would "the washing of water by the word", Ephesians 5: 2, be a similar thought?

S.McC. There is a link in it with what we have here; it all shows the importance of the death of Christ in the water aspect. What would you say. Mr. M.?

A.E.M. I think it is very important that we should understand this, particularly with those that minister. If the minister is not clear, the saints will not be clear.

S.McC. You feel that very much, and the word comes home, as we speak together, and seek to help one another in relation to this matter.

• It is an important matter that practical, subjective conditions, a right state, should be present in those that serve and minister amongst the saints.

C.J.H.D. It was in a place where it says there was a great deal of water, that the minister was able to say

• "He must increase, but I must decrease".

S.McC. You mean John the baptist in chapter 3 of the gospel. Just so. John's ministry came along the line of the water, and the Jews were puzzled by him, as the Jews always will be puzzled by the minister who brings the water in.

A.E.M. Before you minister you must be assured before God as to your own moral state, and the truth that you minister must be clear in your mind. You would not minister in connection with what you do not know.

S.McC. That is very important, because it involves the result in the saints.

• We are to see, therefore, the care that is needed that the truth should not be taken on lightly, and should not be ministered lightly.

• It should first have reaction in the soul of the minister, in the presence of God, so that his motives are pure; there is no opaqueness with him. You know where he is and where he stands. You have no difficulty, there is no obliqueness in what he says, or what he means to say.

• This is very important, for it is one of the cunning devices of the enemy, that where he has been defeated in the open battlefield, as at Calvary in the death of Christ, he has resorted to means of deception;
  • and where he was defeated in the spirit of the martyrs who would not yield, he has resorted to deception, so that as the church came under the power of the State in the time of Constantine, worldliness came in, the death of Christ, in water aspect, was set aside.

• So as we come right down to our own times, in those that minister, if the water has not got its place, we shall resort to human means to make up for spirituality, and to make up for a purified state of things in our souls.

C.H. Would the teaching of this therefore imply death to what the man is, and not only what he has done? I think so often we limit the death of Christ to what we have done, whereas it has the utmost importance in its application to what the man is.

S.McC. That is very important, it involves the end of the man. That is, the water flowed from a dead Christ.

• The water did not flow from the Lord before He died, it flowed out of the side of a dead Christ, meaning that man was ended, as the Lord entered into death.

• He entered death vicariously in order that that condition which in us, sin attached to, might be terminated.

W.C. Would Peter, as a minister, have all this in mind, in regard of the sheet? We get there "what God has cleansed", as though it is a complete thing before God. There is the complete sweeping away of man after the flesh, but having in mind the securing of men after the order of Christ. Then it is "Rise up, Peter, slay and eat".

• I was thinking of what Peter said in his epistle as to souls being saved through water at the time of the flood. Would not Peter have that in mind as preceding the vision of the sheet? God was teaching him in that way what the flood meant in view of bringing in His own thoughts in another order of man.

S.McC. You mean the way that the whole scene was cleansed and purified by that action of God.

W.C. Peter would start with that in his ministry, having in mind to secure men, completely free from the world that had been judged by God so fully, by the sweeping away of the whole scene.

S.McC. Yes. And it is important that we should see the place that the blood has, too, because we must not forget the blood.

• The blood brings in the judicial side, and the thought of expiation and has to do with acts of sin, which have not been met lightly, for the meeting of the guilt linked with them involved this judicial way which the blood draws to our attention.

• Any person that has got a light judgment of sin has never, in his soul before God, come to what the blood really means.

G.R.C. So that the blood greatly affects our hearts. Mr. Taylor said, many years ago, that this scripture "not by water only" is an implied reference to the flood, which was water only.

• God ended the world by water only, and the end of all flesh came before Him, but now it is by water and blood, and the blood retains the person.

S.McC. That is very important. Divine love did not come in in relation to the flood, divine love came in in relation to the death of Christ; see 1 John 3: 16; so that we do not have the water only, we have the water and the blood.

• The blood becomes the great basis on which redemption is effected, the way into the presence of God is thus opened up, and the way by which the heart of God is open to us.

P.H.H. The blood being mentioned, for instance, in the Lord's supper, is calculated to affect our hearts. We might not think so much about the water, and the death of Christ, but with the blood it is unmistakable, and serves to affect our hearts all the time, every time it is mentioned.

S.McC. It does. So that Hebrews, which is dealing with the approach, greatly magnifies the blood before our souls. It is through that holy instrumentality that we draw near:

• "Having therefore, brethren, boldness for entering into the holy of holies, by the blood of Jesus", Hebrews 10: 19.

G.R.C. Before we leave the first epistle, could you say another word as to the Spirit, and the stress upon the Spirit in the end of verse 6? It says,

• "it is the Spirit that bears witness",

• that is the first thing brought in as to witness, and then, when it gives the three, it puts the Spirit first.

S.McC. I think it is important to see the place that the Spirit has in this matter. The water and the blood have in mind the producing of a state in the saints, in a purified way, and

• the witness of the Spirit comes in actively in relation to that state.

• We thus get all the gain of the witness, so that as we come down the chapter, the witness is said to be in ourselves. We do not need, as it were, to go outside of ourselves to get confirmation in that sense, as to where we are in relation to God; we have the witness in ourselves, and the witness in ourselves involves the Spirit.

• It is because He is the truth, not in one part, not in one division, but the truth in its entirety. The witness has to do with that.

G.R.C. Would you just say a further word as to the meaning of that expression

• "The Spirit is the truth"?

S.McC. I think it involves the Spirit as the truth here in the saints.

• The Lord is the truth at the right hand of God. He said when here,
  • "I am the way, the truth, and the life".

• But the Spirit is the truth now down here, in the saints. It is a great help to see that we are in the presence of the truth in its entirety, in a divine Person, amongst the saints.

W.D. What bearing has the fact that when the Lord speaks of the coming of the Comforter He speaks of Him as the Spirit of truth?

S.McC. I think it helps us to see in regard of what we have here, that safety marks this position, as we recognise the Spirit, in that He is the truth – not in one part of it, or in two parts of it, but the whole truth.

• And we are in the presence of it in the witness. It says,
  • "it is the Spirit that bears witness, for the Spirit is the truth".

• Now the enemy would have us, at times, get occupied with one side of the truth, and perhaps be developed in relation to one side of the truth, whereas the point here is, the truth in its entirety.

C.H. Is that implied in verse 2 of the second letter?

S.McC. There is a remarkable link in verse 2 of the second letter with the Spirit of God, because almost the same expression is used as to the Spirit in John 14 as is used of the truth here. The Lord says in John 14,

• "I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see him nor know him; but ye know him, for he abides with you, and shall be in you", verses 16-17.

• There is a remarkable link with the truth in that way, for it says here
  • "for the truth's sake which abides in us and shall be with us to eternity".

• I think this would greatly help us, because sometimes in conversation, and in what may be said publicly, the truth seems to be regarded as something that perhaps does not matter much how you speak about it, and a kind of an optional and casual way is employed in regard to it.

• Whereas, the word here is "the Spirit is the truth". The truth is a great bond of fellowship between the saints.

C.H. Certain cardinal truths connected with the Spirit have been said, in recent years, to be just Christian liberties, and not to be obligatory; but these epistles show that the truth is obligatory, because it involves the presence of a divine Person here.

S.McC. Therefore the truth has a binding influence amongst the saints.

• Persons sometimes say, 'Oh, if we only had a presentation of Christ objectively, it would unite us all together'.

• Well, of course it would – that is another side of the truth; but then, the truth, if it has full authority and power in our souls, also has a binding influence among the saints.

A.P.C.L. Would it be going too far to think of the Spirit personally as being the truth, not only as seen subjectively in the saints, but what there is in Himself as a divine Person?

S.McC. I would like to hear more what is in your mind in that regard.

A.P.C.L. I was only thinking of the possibility of a time when there was little, perhaps, subjectively in the saints, whereas the matter is there in His Person, do you think, or is that going too far?

S.McC. Do you mean the reference "the Spirit is the truth"?

A.P.C.L. Yes, as to whether one glory of His own Person would be that, that He is the truth. I was only thinking it would emphasise more what you are saying as to the truth being the bond; because it really is what lies in the divine Person who is here. I would like to get clear as to that.

S.McC. My own impression of it is that it has a subjective bearing, the Spirit being here in the saints because, whatever may have come into the dispensation in the introduction of failure and ruin and breakdown,

• there has always been, in the martyrs, and in faithful ones here and there, a certain subjective answer in which the truth has been there, although it is not in a full way in which we have it in the recovery, and in the revival; and as it was in the pristine state of the assembly.

• But the Spirit is not incarnate, and when the ruin and breakdown came in. He still was here, and the unity of the Spirit still was here. I think it bears on all that.

— He came into the assembly, and He is still here.

S.McC. That is it. When the ruin and the breakdown came in, and the Dark Ages came in, the Spirit did not retire into heaven.

• He remained here, because the assembly in that sense, in principle, goes through intact. It is affecting to think of the Spirit being here all through the Dark Ages.

A.P.C.L. That is what I was thinking, that if the matter lies with the Spirit, what a resource there is for us.

S.McC. Just so.

— To know that He is here in the way that He was when He came.

S.McC. He has not changed a bit. And it is not what He is in Deity.

• "The Spirit is the truth" is not a reference to what He is in Deity, but what He is here in the assembly.

J.S.E. Did not that same principle apply when Christ was here amongst His own? Could we not rightly say that He was amongst them in a condition that they could take account of; and that in that condition He says

• "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father unless by me".

• Does He not, as having gone to heaven, present Himself now, according to the scripture referred to in Ephesians, as the One in whom the truth is?

• But is not the Spirit here taking the place that Christ had here, as He Himself said, "another Comforter", and is not John, in this epistle, enlarging on that in view of this spiritual unity that we are concerned about?

S.McC. I think so. Now that the Lord has gone to the right hand of God, the truth in all its fulness is seen in Him objectively there,

• but it is now in this passage linked with the Spirit here in the assembly, that He is the truth.

• It helps to see if we except the scripture in Jeremiah – which has a characteristic, or relative reference – that God is said to be true but never said to be "the truth".

• But the Persons that are said to be the truth are the Persons in the mediatorial position. The Mediator, the Lord Jesus Christ on high, and what He was down here, and then the Spirit here in the assembly.

P.L. Is it because the truth is not presented absolutely, but it is presented relatively as coming within our range in divine Persons in the economy?

S.McC. Truth involves comparison and stands over against error in that sense being the expression of what God is, but viewed in His essential existence, God does not express Himself.

• He is what He is; He cannot be compared with anything, as J.N.D. said. Scripture says, "God is love", which is an absolute reference.

R.W. The presence of the Spirit as the truth is seen in the meeting of evil in Acts 5.

S.McC. Yes. And what is to be noted in this section is that the truth is personified. The truth will make way for itself, like the ark in the land of the Philistines. The power of God is linked with it, bringing down things, the truth does that.

J.S.E. Do we need to understand, that both in the case of Jesus, and in the case of the Spirit, they are Each, in turn, said to be the truth, but, as in a circle of holy affinity with their feelings? Does not this matter of the water, if applied, bring us more into correspondence with what is proper to that circle?

S.McC. That is the whole point in the water, that we should be delivered from the world, and the system of things in it, and what is linked with man, and his state, and be linked up with a system of things that is marked by what is purified, and is in affinity with the Spirit of God. The state is a result of the work of Christ and the Spirit being here in this way.

J.S.E. Does that make the allusion to "yourselves" in the second epistle more understandable by us? Is "yourselves" a term which denotes the circle of affinity with the Spirit here as the truth?

S.McC. Just so.

A.J.G. So that the Spirit as the truth requires, for its expression, saints in moral accord with Himself?

S.McC. I think it is very important to see that. We do not thus talk over these matters as just platitudes and things that entertain our minds, but they have in view a corresponding state being produced in us, a state that is marked by uprightness, honesty and transparency, that is the fruit of the water aspect of the death of Christ applied in the power of the Spirit.

R.G.B. Do the distinctive references to walking bear on that, particularly the walking in the truth, and walking according to His commandments?

S.McC. That is very important, because we might say, Well, John is getting very detailed and very extreme; he says that

• if a man goes forward, and abides not in the doctrine of Christ and perhaps has got a new development in mind, and is opening up what might be called some fresh feature of the truth, that is in advance of Christianity, the sisters should hear this, and pay attention to it.
  • John says to the elect lady, "If any one come to you and bring not this doctrine", notice the word 'doctrine', the teaching, "do not receive him into the house, and greet him not; for he who greets him partakes in his wicked works".

• We might say, Well, could we not say 'Good day' to him, or 'Good afternoon'? 'No', John says if you do that, you partake in his wicked works. Now this is the holy Scriptures, this is what the scripture says, and the Spirit of God inspires the record.

J.G.M. How does the Lord's word in John 17 bear upon this matter, when He says,

• "Sanctify them by the truth: thy word is truth"?

S.McC. Well, there is a link with it in that the truth becomes the instrument or agency, in the power of the Spirit, by which we become set apart from this world.

• The truth there is that Christ is in glory, the Object of the affections of His people. And if the Object of our affections is there, how could we get absorbed with things here? How could we get enmeshed in associations here? It has got a delivering effect.

A.J.G. In this second epistle of John, and in the third, we get the expression "Walking in truth", and then, "walking in the truth". Do you draw any distinction between those two?

S.McC. I think there is; could you say something to help us on it, as to what is in your mind?

A.J.G. I was just seeking to get it clarified. We have "walking in truth" in verse 4 of the second epistle, and "thou walkest in truth" in verse 3 of the third, and then "I hear of my children walking in the truth" in verse 4 of the third.

S.McC. Is not the one a question of what is characteristic, and affects us subjectively and in practice, and the other – walking in the truth – involves what governs and controls our outlook, our thoughts? You get, for instance, in verse 1,

• "The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth".

• It is the character of the love. Now this is very important, because we should have no natural likings for one another, there should not be those that we like better than others, we are not to be respecters of persons.

• Then if we love in the truth, it is like another link with Paul's ministry in Colossians, "love in the Spirit"; that is, we are not governed by one another according to what we are naturally.

H.W. Is there any link, or any connection, between the thought of the truth, and "our faith", or "the faith once delivered to the saints", that Jude speaks of?

S.McC. I think there is a link in that sense. We walk in the truth, and the truth has come out.

• I mean, we do not expect exactly that there will be fresh revelations of the truth in these meetings, in the sense in which we are now speaking of it.

• The truth has all been laid out, what we are seeking to get at is what has been laid out, and what the Lord is seeking to help us to get into. The water is necessary for that, and the Spirit is necessary for that.

H.W. Would that be encompassed, by the thought of "our faith", which gets victory over the world?

S.McC. Well, there you have a link.

G.C.H. I understand the expression "for the Spirit is the truth" is a reciprocal statement.

S.McC. Yes, it can be reversed, so that the truth is the Spirit.

• That is very important, in connection with the recognition of it, for "the Spirit bears witness", implies the assembly.

• He is not exactly bearing witness to the angels, it is not that He is in heaven at this point, bearing witness, and this is the value of the New Translation, but it is the Spirit that bears witness here for the Spirit is the truth, or the truth is the Spirit.

C.H. In your reference a little earlier, to verses 9 and 10 in the second letter, you spoke about the importance of not receiving those who abide not in the doctrine;

• if the truth and the teaching connected with the truth becomes the bond of fellowship, are we to understand that it will increasingly become the test of fellowship?

S.McC. It will. Because it is the truth that abides in us and shall be with us to eternity.

• It is not special friendships, special leanings, special likes and dislikes; it is the truth that abides in us and shall be with us to eternity. And the truth will become increasingly the bond.

• But we should see in that way how it is bound up with the two holy Persons in the mediatorial position, the Lord Jesus at the right hand of God, and the Spirit here in the assembly.

• So that we should not speak carelessly, or lightly in regard to the truth, as if something was being made an issue that does not mean much. We may be assaulting, or attacking, a divine Person.

C.M.M. Would you say a word about

• "Jesus Christ coming in flesh"?

• In the first epistle it says "Come in flesh". I was wondering as to the word 'coming'. Could it be connected with Hebrews 10,
  • "Wherefore coming in to the world he says …"?

S.McC. "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, they who do not confess Jesus Christ coming …"

• It is not the chronological side, but I understand the reference to the "coming" to imply that it is the form and character seen in the action of this Person. No other Person could do this.

• I mean, no other man could do this; it could only be said of One who was a divine Person. In the first epistle
  • "Jesus Christ come in flesh"

• is a statement of actual fact that He came into that condition of humanity.

• "In him was life and the life was the light of men"?

• Does that bear upon what you are saying? If we do not walk in the light, we are not practising the truth;
  • "He that practises the truth comes to the light", John 3: 21.

S.McC. Well, it is very important, because it bears on the state that the water would produce.

• Things are out in the open, transparent, no opaqueness. God is in the light, why should we not be in the light?

• Why should I have anything that I do not want the brethren to know? Why should everything not be laid open? Why should there be any dark parts, dark spots that I do not want to disclose?

• If God is in the light, we are to walk in the light as He is in the light, and have fellowship with one another. And the water would help us as to that.

J.P.H. Would Demetrius be one who was walking in the light?

S.McC. I think he was. It says of him, that he

• "has witness borne to him by all, and by the truth itself".

• You would never have any difficulty about Demetrius. Wherever he went among the brethren, he had "witness borne to him by all". You might say universally. Demetrius would be known, and then it says "and by the truth itself". What a fine reference to any person!

J.P.H. Was he an exemplar in that way of all the truth that he had been taught?

S.McC. I think he was. The Lord said

• "He that practises the truth comes to the light, that his works may be manifested, that they have been wrought in God", John 3: 21.

• Demetrius was that. If we are not doing the truth, we will be afraid of the light; none of us wants to be afraid of the light, and it is important that every one of us should be in the light as God is in the light.

P.H.H. Do you think that is illustrated in some of the men around David, like Joab, who passed muster in a public way, yet when the test came, it showed that they were dark, and not walking in the truth? So it led to something sectional.

S.McC. It is very important to see that, because one thing that marks the antichristian world and antichristian principles is deception.

• That is, in the system around us, we have the mysterious habiliments and dress; it is all deceiving, and when the enemy has been defeated in the open battlefield, he resorts to deception.

• It may be even through innuendos, oblique hints, or covert allusive statements, that inject virus into the blood-stream, and bring about a state of innocuousness [?, perhaps this should be 'weakness'] amongst the saints, so that the truth loses its sting and power in their conscience.

P.H.H. Here the deception you speak of is connected with antichrist, it says, "This is the deceiver and the antichrist". That shows the origin of it.

S.McC. That is it. And John, in his writings, in the epistles, would remind us that there are many antichrists, and I have to see to that in my heart. Every one of us has to see to this feature of what is antichristian, because

• if any allowance is made for it, we shall get what we have in the history in 2 Samuel, Solomon and David displaced, and Absalom in power.

M.H.T. Do we see the contrast between those that the elect lady was warned not to receive into the house, in the second epistle and those whom we ought to receive in the third epistle? It says "receive such, that we may be fellow workers with the truth".

S.McC. That is good. The second letter stresses those that we are not to receive, but the third letter stresses those that we are to receive. It is important therefore to see Demetrius in that light, as one who has witness borne to him by all, and by the truth itself.

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READING  2
SPIRITUAL UNITY IN THE MINISTRY OF JOHN (2) Revelation 11: 3-13; 12: 1-6; 21: 9, 14

S.McC. The thought of unity appears in these passages in relation to the testimony; and suffering, and glory.

• It is important that we should see how the assembly comes on to view; especially as in chapter 12, where the enemy's hatred and activity are directed against Christ and the assembly. It may be somewhat in a hidden or abstruse way, but Christ and the assembly as we know is involved in the child caught up to God and to His throne.

• Then we have the thought of the Lamb's wife; trustworthiness has been acquired in the circumstances and scene of suffering, and now it is seen in her as a vessel, coming out with the glory of God, and then unity is seen pervading the whole thought of the city, as is conveyed in the numeral twelve.

• We know that chapter 11, which we began with, dispensationally alludes to another period of time than that in which we are, but the principles that come on to our view in the circumstances in which testimony is borne would apply in all dispensations, and they are particularly helpful at the present time in the current circumstances of the testimony.

• The brethren will notice that in these passages the thought of completeness enters in to what is conveyed. First, the witnesses complete their testimony; it is an important thing at the present time, that testimony should be completed and that it should not be left half-completed, whatever the sorrows or the suffering may be that it entails or involves.

• Then, in chapter 12, the child is brought forth, there is a completed result, and then of course, in chapter 21, the assembly comes out, which is another completed result.

• After all the history throughout the dispensation and all that the assembly has had to contend with, she comes out to share with Christ in the administration.

• Then there is the matter of trade unions and testifying to the Government. There has been a good deal of disunity amongst us as to the matter of approach to the Government. Perhaps we have failed to see that it is a matter of completing testimony.

• We think of our dear brethren in France, prayer has been going up universally for the young men in view of the completing of their testimony, that God may make a way by His angel for them, in the National Assembly in Paris.

— So Moses completed his testimony immediately. There was an extensive period, seen in Moses' testimony in Egypt, involving that he went in continually into the presence of Pharaoh, and finally he is told to see Pharaoh's face no more.

S.McC. It is a very interesting section to which you refer; and we see the moral courage that marked Moses. One of the great things that is needed in regard to this matter of unity in testimony is moral courage.

• Indeed, I think, brethren, we should face the matter as to whether we are prepared to lose our lives, I do not mean just spiritually, I mean actually – whether we are prepared to go that far.

A.H. Does the standing before the Lord of the earth bear on this matter?

S.McC. I think it does. Are we to allow the enemy to interfere with divine rights, to entrench upon Immanuel's realm, Immanuel's land, without raising any issue? That would not be according to faith, or to grace either. We are to remember the rights of God in this relation.

G.R.C. In Zechariah 4 it closes by saying,

• "These are the two sons of oil, that stand before the Lord of the whole earth", verse 14,

• and in chapter 6, as to the four chariots, the answer to the question is,
  • "These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth", verse 5.

• Does that bear on what you are saying as to bearing testimony before Governments? They are responsible to the Lord of all the earth, but then the Lord of all the earth has His witnesses to bring home to them the rights of God. Is that so?

S.McC. I think that is important. The authorities represent mysteriously, agents of control, indirectly under the hand of God, in view of the testimony; and they are to be acquainted through testimony rendered, as to the rights of the Lord of all the earth.

• They are to be reminded through testimony to them, that God has a people here that He is supporting, and sustaining, in relation to these rights.

G.R.C. And that they themselves stand in responsibility to the God to whom witness is borne.

S.McC. That is it.

P.L. And to hold the ground for the only true and coming Heir?

S.McC. That would be it, in view of the Lord coming in, as this book from which we have read contemplates. The One who is the Heir of all.

R.W.S. Is it a daily matter in verse 3? It is not there a period of three and a half years, or a matter of so many months, but a thousand two hundred and sixty days. Would it suggest preparation daily for this suffering?

S.McC. Yes, it would. The protracted period of time in their prophetic service is very interesting in that sense.

• When it comes to verse 11, the time is limited,
  • "And after the three days and a half the spirit of life from God came into them".

• In regard to the prophetic service, it is protracted and extended; but in regard to the answer to God in the completed result, which means the losing of their lives, it is limited; so we have "after three days and a half the spirit of life from God came into them". Of course it is symbolic, but the modification is interesting in that sense.

C.M.M. Would our faithfulness in claiming the earth for God lead to this giving glory to the God of heaven? The Father is spoken of in Matthew 11 as "Lord of the heaven and of the earth".

• I was thinking of the pleasure of God in verse 13, and the link between "the God of the heaven" in that verse and "the Lord of the earth" in verse 4.

• These two witnesses are holding the earth in faithfulness, and do we not claim the earth for God? As that is so there is an answer in glory being given to God of the heavens.

S.McC. Yes, it is interesting that the remnant were filled with fear, and gave glory to the God of the heavens. While the testimony stands related to the Lord of the earth, the result works out in glory to the God of the heaven.

P.H.H. Are you suggesting that along with the much prayer that has been made about several matters, that the prophetic side and showing ourselves in testimony to the authorities should be the accompaniment?

• I was thinking of Elijah; James tells us that he was a man like ourselves, and that he prayed with prayer; but in Kings, he says to Ahab, that he stood before Jehovah, and there should be no rain except by his word. Do the two things go together?

S.McC. They do. The moral courage and power that enters into that is important. Because it requires moral courage and power to carry the testimony before the authorities.

P.L. "Shew thyself to Ahab", 1 Kings 18: 1.

S.McC. Show thyself; that is it. It is not just words of mouth; it involves words coming out of the mouth, but a great deal is made of the eyes in this section. It says they see the witnesses; and so those in Government in high office and the like are to be impressed with the saints, and what is seen in them.

H.A.H. Is there an impression of unity in the reference to "their body" being in the singular twice?

S.McC. Yes. That is what we referred to at the beginning of the reading; the mention of the body, in the singular in that verse, would point to the unity of the testimony, although you do get their bodies in the plural in verse 9.

• It is a great matter that there should be unity in testimony in regard to this matter that involves the rights of the Lord.

• And it would encourage us to see, and encourage our brethren to see, in the Scriptures that have been referred to, the great system of divine help, and divine support, that lies behind the testimony rendered.

C.H. And alongside of that, the acceptance of the principle of martyrdom, which this testimony might involve?

S.McC. I feel we have to face that matter, I speak feelingly – we would all speak feelingly about this matter.

• I must say it has come up in one's own soul, as to whether we are prepared to accept martyrdom if it means an issue in the public sphere, and for the testimony. Are we? We all have to face that now.

W.J.T. Would the leverage be that it is in the place where their Lord was crucified?

S.McC. That verse is interesting as introduced by the Spirit of God through John here, because it would touch the affections, that that realm, the great city, which is called spiritually Sodom and Egypt, is where our Lord was crucified. It is stained with the guilt of that awful crime, and surely that would touch deeply in our souls.

C.H. We cannot isolate ourselves from what the Lord is raising in other countries, because it is being accomplished in the "brotherhood which is in the world". Should we not learn by delineation? The Lord is raising issues in certain parts, and we are all to face the principles which are involved in the experiences of others.

S.McC. So that it is a matter that we are all bound up in, in that way. That passage in Peter says,

• "knowing that the selfsame sufferings are accomplished in your brotherhood which is in the world", 1 Peter 5: 9.

• And the word 'brotherhood', being a feminine word in the original, would mean that the subjective side, the state of the saints, is entering into it.

W.S.S. Has that been the basis on which the testimony has come down through the centuries? Paul himself speaks of being delivered unto death, and dying daily, and facing martyrdom.

S.McC. I think there is ample witness all the way down through, right to our own time as to the preparedness to accept martyrdom, if it came to the full issue as to the truth.

W.S.S. However challenging it may be, it is the truth today, that that is our place in relation to the testimony. It is a very big thing to say, but it is readiness to die, is it not?

S.McC. We have to face it. Whether we are prepared for it or not is another matter, but we have to look into it, and face it. If our Lord went that way, and if Stephen went that way, and if Antipas went that way, would we expect to stop short of anything less, if need be?

R.G.B. In the type of the Hebrew bondman, he says

• "I will not go free".

• And then of the three in Daniel it says
  • "they would not bow".

• Is the same spirit of committal to the truth to be seen in us as was seen in the Lord Jesus? Our prayers may not effect deliverance, and a spirit of martyrdom is required on that account.

S.McC. I think it is. And we are tested as to our devotedness in that relation, and whether we are prepared to accept, in the spirit of unselfishness, the limitations that bondmanship may involve.

M.A.W. Would you say that perhaps deliverance may come in, as in Esther,

• "If I perish I perish",

• but was not that the way in which deliverance was effected?

S.McC. Just so. And along with that we have to face the fact, or face the prospect, that deliverance may not come in. These two witnesses, symbolic as they are, were killed, they were conquered and killed.

• Well, brethren throughout the world have lost their positions and jobs, in facing the matter of the trade union issue; and no deliverance has been wrought for them. We have to calculate time, and see what God has in mind.

A.H. Does what we are constitutionally enter into this? It says in verse 4,

• "These are the two olive trees and the two lamps".

S.McC. That is why we began the meetings with the subject of the water, because, if there is any dark part with us, it surely will affect the testimony, and the completing of it.

— We have the principle of two here, and while it is symbolical, there is something in the idea of two.

S.McC. Yes, there is a divine principle in it. It is referred to in other parts.

— It is on that principle that the assembly has really come into evidence again.

S.McC. Yes, I suppose you have in your mind that Matthew 18 would enter into it,

• "Again I say to you, that if two of you".

— Two of the assembly.

W.C. Is it significant that in the last letter to the assemblies in Revelation 3 the Lord presents Himself as "the amen", suggesting what is completed; and then as

• "the faithful and true witness"?

• In settings of indifference to what was due to Himself and of love for Him, does He represent Himself to the assembly, as "the faithful and true witness", as if He would recover the features of true witness in the assembly?

S.McC. Yes, that helps. It is interesting to see how it stands at the very beginning of the book, where the subject of witness and testimony comes up peculiarly.

• The assembly being publicly in the place of witness, but having failed, the Lord presents Himself to the assembly in that light, as if He would awaken the conscience of the assembly as to the matter of witness bearing, and of loyalty and faithfulness.

P.L. Would the "liquid myrrh, five hundred shekels", having such a large part in the holy compound connected with the anointing of the tent of meeting and the ark of the testimony, bear on the unifying power testimonially, sufferingly, of the spirit of Christ universally, marking the saints?

S.McC. The whole system was marked by the anointing, and the chief ingredient suggests suffering in that sense. So that it would cover the whole position.

G.R.C. Does the word to Laodicea indicate that the testimony becomes the proof of our affections for Christ? It is really those who are 'hot', who can render adequate testimony, not those who are 'lukewarm'.

S.McC. So that the Lord would raise the question with them that they were neither one nor the other. Because they had become so engrossed and absorbed with material things, material goods and the like, that they were neither one nor the other. It is an important thing that we should be ardent, in that way, in our affections for Christ, and ready to complete our testimony.

G.R.C. There is a point I wonder if you could help us on. In a good many minds, I think, there has been some doubt as to whether Scripture supports us in taking the initiative in an approach to the authorities.

• I have had a letter recently on the subject, and there was a time when one's own mind was not clear. Some have thought that if the requirements of the authorities go against conscience, we should not say anything to them about it, but just bear the suffering involved, and some seem to feel that in approaching the authorities, and putting the truth before them, we are trying to avoid the suffering.

S.McC. I do not think it is any question of avoiding suffering. It is a question of a responsibility before God, to enlighten that which He has set up Himself, in an ordered manner in this world, and which basically and abstractly stands for the protection of His interests in it. Why should government not be enlightened?

• Many, I think, have thought that redress was being sought in regard to personal wrongs done on a human level. That is not the point at all. The point is that witness is to be borne to the truth; testimony is to be completed before the powers that be, the governments, in line with what they are abstractly as ordained of God, without any question of personal redress.

G.R.C. So that in a country like France, where since the Revolution the government has apparently been marked by a non-recognition of God, it is an important matter that it should be brought to the attention of the highest authorities, that there is a body of Christian faith and steadfast devotion in that country.

S.McC. I am sure it is important that we should see that, and that our brethren should see that.

• Take the Huguenots, and the others, that suffered for the truth, as you go back through the years; so great was the hatred that some of them were not even allowed to be buried inside the city, and the like; then there are all the others, and what has come in since.

• Are the brethren now going to be behind in drawing the Government's attention to what God has under His hand at the present time, that which is prepared to go to the wall, to maintain the divine principles in the testimony?

P.L. And has not God ordered all the circumstances in which the nations now find themselves, and allowed the demands which they make, to force into evidence what God has here in their midst?

S.McC. Yes.

A.J.G. The Lord before Pilate said

• "Thou hadst no authority whatever against me if it were not given to thee from above", John 19: 11.

• Was He calling Pilate's attention in that way to Pilate's own responsibility to God?

S.McC. That is it exactly. He puts the matter back on Pilate, and in our testimony in the United States, to the Government, and appeal in regard to the truth, it has been putting back on them a sense of their responsibility to God, that there is a people in their midst that is thinking of God, and is prepared to die for principles that are according to God.

J.McK. In connection with this matter of power given to the two witnesses, I think the word is 'efficacy'. Would there be with the witnesses the ability to bring the thing specifically to the conscience of authorities?

S.McC. I think that is the point. It is not done in a vague way, but, as you say, something specific has to be done, and something specific has to be said, along with prayer and fasting.

J.McK. And not merely for relief, but in order that the truth might be borne witness to.

S.McC. I think that is the point, I might just read one or two passages in the Acts as to Paul. The question of whether it was right or wrong to appeal to Caesar comes up in our minds.

• It is interesting that before Paul made the appeal to Caesar in chapter 25: 11, it says in chapter 23: 11,
  • "the following night the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good courage; for as thou hast testified the things concerning me at Jerusalem, so thou must bear witness at Rome also".

• The Lord was in that matter and overruling things in view of the witness to be borne at Rome. The truth thus is specially in mind.

W.J.T. Ananias had a message for him in relation to it, that he was to bear His name before nations and kings and the sons of Israel,

• "for I will shew him how much he must suffer for my name", Acts 9: 16.

S.McC. Just so. Then in Acts 27: 23 it says – and this is the scripture; this is not what I say, or anyone else is saying, this is the scripture –

• "For an angel of the God, whose I am and whom I serve, stood by me this night, saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must stand before Caesar".

• Think of some of the brethren that there might have been that had misgivings or reserves about Paul going to Caesar, when all heaven was behind him in the matter!

R.G.B. So in 2 Timothy 4, where he speaks about appearing before Caesar, he says,

• "But the Lord stood with me, and gave me power, that through me the proclamation might be fully made", verse 17.

• I wondered if that bore on your thought as to the completion of the testimony.

S.McC. Very good. "Fully made" would link on with the completing of the testimony here.

— In the chapter you have referred to in Acts, Paul's sister's son was really the one through whom the relief came to Paul. Does that show how things that are right may start in a small way, otherwise Paul might have been slain?

S.McC. That is very good. We might say in such instances, Well, why not count on God and just pray? But then there are all these methods of operations that the Spirit of God brings before us, and we are not to make little of them, in that sense, small as they may be.

P.H.H. It was possibly Paul's prayers that brought this young man forward.

S.McC. No doubt it was.

M.A.W. Do you think therefore that in chapter 16, Paul was right when he speaks of having been beaten publicly uncondemned and then insisting that the praetors themselves should come to release them?

S.McC. Well, they are just the facts, that what they did was not right; and, while it may be thought that Paul was standing on his dignity, we have to bear in mind that the government, and men in government, have to be reminded of what is right, and the due processes of law.

W.H. Would that be seen in John the baptist's word to Herod in regard of Herodias, "It is not lawful for thee to have her"? Did he not lose his life for his testimony?

S.McC. And it is very interesting in that relation, if I remember rightly, in Matthew 14 the verb in the Greek is the imperfect tense, according to the note that Mr. Darby gives. Literally it is, 'kept on saying'.

• That is, you keep at it; you are not dismayed if there is evil resistance, or lawless resistance to prophetic service and testimony. You keep at the thing, keep on at it.

W.McK. Does the thought of standing enter into that? It says of the witnesses in Revelation 11 that they

• "stand before the Lord of the earth",

• and then, verse 11, "they stood upon their feet".

• It was not a time for lying on their faces, although that might come in in other regards.

S.McC. That is important, because God said to Joshua,

• "Wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face?" Joshua 7: 10.

• There is time for lying on the earth, lying on our face, but then there is a time for standing on our feet.

A.J.G. You were saying that there must be the keeping on at it. In verse 11 of chapter 10, John says,

• "And it was said to me, Thou must prophesy again as to peoples and nations and tongues and many kings".

• It is as though he was told he must keep on at it.

S.McC. Just so.

P.L. And the importunate widow in Luke?

S.McC. Exactly. She was heard because of her importunity. We may wonder, as some of us have wondered, at the long delay; but then, shall we give up, shall we not keep at it in importunity?

C.M.M. Would you advise us to emphasise conscience when before these people? They have consciences themselves.

S.McC. I think that is very important, because that is what the people do not like; the tormenting in verse 10 has to do with the conscience. It is the keen edge of the prophetic word on their conscience that they do not like. And when they are reminded of conscience it bothers them, like the gnats in Egypt, it is a source of annoyance, a source of irritation.

A.H. The prophets were clothed with sackcloth irrespective of the firmness of their communication. Would you say a word about that?

S.McC. I think an important feature comes in there, that we should be marked by what is comely, and by a sense of humility and dependence so that the governments of the world can see that there is a different kind of humanity. It is not the kind of humanity that will be consummated in the man of sin, but the kind of humanity that was seen in Jesus.

J.S.E. Would you say a word, please, as to the bearing of the Lord's own ministry? I think it is in the early part of Luke 12, as to the place the Spirit has in helping us as to standing before these agencies.

S.McC. I think it links with the olive tree here. You are referring to the fact that the Spirit speaks, as it says in Luke 12: 11,

• "when they bring you before the synagogues and rulers and the authorities, be not careful how or what ye shall answer, or what ye shall say; for the Holy Spirit shall teach you in the hour itself what should be said".

• I think there would be a link with the olive trees in that, that the testimony is rendered in the power of the Spirit.

W.S.S. You have referred once or twice to the importance of what is here. You spoke of it in connection with France, for example, and I was wondering about the opening verses of the chapter, the measuring of the temple, and the altar, and them that worship in it.

• It raises a question with us as to our appreciation of what is here, and what is ascending to God from the altar, and the service of God carried on. Would not that be very strengthening to us to have before our affections in all testimonial positions?

S.McC. It would indeed. It shows that God has taken account of what there is. It may be in a small way, but He has taken account of it in relation to His own pleasure in it.

W.S.S. I was thinking of the importance of our taking account of it also.

S.McC. Well, that is important too, for John says,

• "There was given to me a reed like a staff, saying, Rise and measure the temple of God".

P.L. Would 1 Corinthians 13 suggest what is measurable – love, and chapter 14 the prophetic word issuing out of that?

S.McC. Yes.

P.H.H. Would you say a word about the next part, as connected with this? We have, the voice out of heaven, in verse 12, for instance, and the invitation to "Come up here". Is that heaven intervening as a kind of crowning approval of their sufferings and pathway in this testimony?

S.McC. It is very fine how heaven says "Come up here". They did not want them down there; they were glad to get rid of them, and sent gifts to one another because they thought they had got rid of them; but heaven says

• "Come up here".

• It is not just 'Come up', but "Come up here". The location of the place, "Come up here", and they went up to heaven in a cloud. That is, there is a correspondence with the Master, for He went up in the cloud.

— So it is a very interesting thought that these two really form part of the heavenly order of things. That is, they are not an earthly family, they form a heavenly one.

S.McC. Just so. That is, heaven says of persons that have completed their testimony in the sense in which we have been referring to it, "Come up here", because they are part of the heavenly order of things.

A.N.G. Does it actually show that what has been given testimony to is heavenly in its character? Mr. Taylor used to say that while Paul claimed Roman citizenship in the prison in Philippi, in his epistle to the Philippians he said

• "Our commonwealth has its existence in the heavens".

S.McC. Exactly. So that we are all tested as to where our interests are, because we cannot expect to have power in prophetic testimony and witness if our interests are bound up in the earth, and bound up in the world.

C.J.H.D. Does Nehemiah 2: 4 give an example of a successful appeal to the authorities? There is testimony as to the city lying waste, and then the king says,

• "For what dost thou make request?" Nehemiah says, "So I prayed to the God of the heavens. And I said to the king …".

S.McC. Well, that is an encouragement to us in regard to these matters that we have been speaking about. We should be encouraged to approach the authorities in view of these particular matters that require the intervention of the authorities, for God may have gone before us; He may have sent His angel, and have been working with the authorities, and we may find favour as we come to them.

A.J.G. So that the king said to Nehemiah, "Why is thy face sad?" Is not that like the sackcloth with these witnesses?

S.McC. That is it. We feel this matter; it enters into our beings, that God's rights should be disputed, and that the liberty of Christian conscience should be denied. We feel that, and the authorities should get a sense of the fact that we feel it.

A.P.C.L. According to Romans we are subject to the authorities for conscience sake. Should not there be the impression given of that, and that it is distressing to us that we cannot be subject to them for conscience sake, because they are standing out against God?

S.McC. Just so. And do you not think "for conscience sake" would also apply to this matter of completing testimony? It is right that the government should be enlightened as to the fact that there is that which God has here which can be called attention to in testimony.

A.P.C.L. So that it is a matter of an enlightened conscience that is brought to bear upon them.

S.McC. That is it.

E.E.H. How do you regard the word in Acts 5,

• "God must be obeyed rather than men"?

S.McC. That is what we have to recognise when it comes to a full issue as to the truth, that God must be obeyed rather than men. We have to be prepared to stand by what we have conviction in regard to, in relation to the rights of God and our consciences.

F.V.W. Would it be seen in Daniel? On the one hand Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not pollute himself, and, on the other hand, he requested certain things of the prince of the eunuchs; and then it says,

• "And God granted Daniel favour and mercy".

S.McC. That section helps in regard to the matter, and it becomes very challenging to us, as to whether we are clear in regard to matters. How can we approach the government in regard to matters if we are not clear in our own circumstances and lives of what would be defiling in regard to unions and associations and the like.

A.E.M. If there are two of them in the country you could approach the authorities on the ground of the assembly.

S.McC. That would be the point in Matthew 18,

• "if two of you shall agree".

• That is, if two persons of the assembly, having the assembly interests at heart, approach the authorities in that light, they can count upon divine help.

C.H. Would faithfulness of this kind make way for the power of God in life? God seems to come into it in verse 11 after a certain period.

S.McC. It is very interesting how it is put there,

• "And after the three days and a half the spirit of life from God came into them".

• Now notice, it does not say 'it was sent into them', it says "it came into them", I think the 'coming into them' shows the condition that there was there in affinity with it.

— Would you think that morally they would have to go through death first? I mean we have to go through death morally before we know what the spirit of life from God is.

S.McC. I am sure that is right.

C.H. They were not caught up to heaven immediately. It says

• "they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon those beholding them".

• Before they were caught up to heaven they evidently were a testimony to the power of life.

S.McC. That all contains important principles for us at the present time, not only in regard to our brethren who are suffering in France, and we think of them feelingly, but in other parts of the world.

We must go on now to the woman here in chapter 12. Perhaps now we come to what comes nearer home in regard to conditions in our localities involving the necessity of the maternal side, and the necessity of a completed result in this relation.

• So that right results are arrived at, as it says,
  • "she brought forth a male son", and then

  • "her child was caught up to God and to his throne".

• The thought of unity is conveyed in the crown of twelve stars upon her head; it is unity in an administrative or governmental setting.

P.H.H. May I ask you a little more about this maternal side? Did you say earlier that the assembly is included in the male son? How does the maternal side work out in connection with that?

S.McC. I suppose the inclusion of the assembly in the male son would be an abstract thought – we are to learn how to hold abstract thoughts – but the woman in travail would be a very concrete thought.

• Although there are certain abstract features linked with her, the travail would be very concrete and it raises the question as to whether we are working out deliverance with completed results accruing in the child being brought forth.

P.L. And is that what the enemy is set against – divine matters fruitfully brought to a spiritual conclusion?

S.McC. He always is against that; as we have said already today, having been defeated in the open battlefield, he will come in in a seductive way; and he will hinder the saints going all the way in the judgment of evil, or in the solving of issues as to evil. If he can get them to stop half way he has gained the day as far as the matter is concerned.

C.M.M. Is right administration arrived at by the development of the maternal side amongst us? I was thinking of Lemuel's mother and the prophecy that she taught him; Proverbs 31: 1.

• And then Rachel said, "Jehovah will add to me another son", Genesis 30: 24.

S.McC. That strengthens the thought of unity in this matter, because the completing of the twelve was in Benjamin, and it was through travail and sorrow.

J.McK. I was wondering about your reference to chapter 12. Does it come in over against chapter 11, where there has been faithfulness? Heaven now proceeds with its own thoughts and gives power for carrying them into effect.

S.McC. I think so. And it is a great thing that we should hold to heaven's thoughts. The woman here was

• "clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars".

• These are glorious thoughts that we have to cling to, and not give them up. However much the power of evil may be present, we hold to these heavenly thoughts.

J.McK. Is it not important that the sign is seen in the heaven? Things have to be met on earth, and are met in testimony, but heaven unveils its great proposals, and its power to bring them all into effect, and to care for what is on earth, too.

S.McC. What mystery would attach to this! The human mind would be baffled by it, but God would enlighten us as to what enters into this great matter of the woman seen in this glory, and the child that is to be brought forth – a definite result.

W.W.S. So that travail would be a much deeper and more intensive exercise than wearing the sackcloth. Does the bringing forth involve these deep, secret exercises?

S.McC. It does, and all the power of heaven is behind the woman to help her. Christ is in mind, in the male son, and the assembly too, and the devil is against it for the red dragon is standing before the woman. The proximity of the dragon is to be noticed; we should be reminded, in that way, of how near the enemy is to attack this thought.

A.H. Is that the enemy religiously?

S.McC. Say something more what is in your mind.

A.H. I was wondering whether there is some mysterious reference to this religious element that is really set against the man child.

S.McC. Of course the religious side is linked with it, as we see in the details of the mystery of iniquity as it works out; but the political side is involved in it too as we see in Herod in the early chapters of Matthew. You have got a link between the two, the political side and the religious side.

G.R.C. So that when it speaks of the male child being

• "caught up to God and to his throne",

• does not that involve the priest and the king – "caught up to God", is the priest, "and to his throne", the king?

• And do not those two thoughts – kings and priests – run through the book; and is not the enemy's attack against that?

S.McC. It is interesting to see that. As if the enemy is against royalty, and against priestliness among the brethren.

G.R.C. That is what I had in mind; they are the two great qualities required in testimony.

S.McC. Yes.

A.E.B. In chapter 10: 7 it says "the mystery of God shall be completed".

• Are not all these things that we have been speaking about working out in those days? Would you say a further word about it?

S.McC. We know that chapter 11 completes the historical side,

• "The kingdom of the world of our Lord and of his Christ is come, and he shall reign to the ages of ages".

• When we begin chapter 12, we come to the details that are wrought out in the scenes that have been described symbolically in the previous chapters.

J.S.E. Do you suggest in your allusions to the woman, the unified exercises of the saints in relation to Christ and His rights?

S.McC. I thought so. That is what was in one's mind, and especially the matter of bringing forth the male son. The enemy does not want administration according to God. He does not want government according to God, or royalty according to God, because he knows that that means his overthrow. He is thus ready to devour it, to spoil it and to destroy it, if he can. But he cannot.

A.J.G. Hence all the exercises in the local assemblies at the present time have in mind the development of this ability to shepherd in a right way in the day to come.

S.McC. That is it. At the present time the principle of the male son would work out in royalty according to God, as seen in this dispensation, grace reigns through righteousness unto eternal life.

G.R.C. So that the exercises assemblywise have been concentrated a good deal upon the development of priesthood amongst the saints, the service of God, which would link with her child being caught up to God,

• but we need further help specially perhaps, now, on royalty, the power that would carry the testimony in the way you have been speaking.

S.McC. I think it is very important. I find in moving around amongst the saints, and in observing conditions, that there is great need for the male son, great need for moral power, moral courage to maintain the truth, and to face things in regard to the truth, and all that is inconsistent with our heavenly position, or with our pilgrimage and sojourning here.

P.L. Does the Spirit urge the intensity of the thought, in the dual expression "male son"?

S.McC. It is remarkable. It would have been sufficient to have said she brought forth a son, but it says she brought forth a "male son", that is, the matter is intensified. The remnant say, in the prophet Isaiah,

• "We have been in travail, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought the deliverance of the land, neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen", Isaiah 26: 18.

• Here, instead of bringing forth wind, we have got a definite result,
  • "a male son, who shall shepherd all the nations".

R.W.S. Would the thought of associations be a little more delicate than the matter of trade unions, and would the throne and the idea of royalty, that have been alluded to, bear upon it?

S.McC. I think so, I think the Lord is helping us to review all matters at the present time. A time of grace, and a time of patience is given, but there is need to look into all matters; professional associations and business associations need to be looked into.

• We are not saying that everything is wrong, but it is a question of looking into matters, and seeing what involves compromise of the truth.

E.J.B. And every locality should have the same aspect in relation to it?

S.McC. That is what we have in mind in unity. So that in Revelation 21, the Lamb's wife comes on to our view. The holy city is identified as the Lamb's wife, and unity marks the whole position. Wherever you look, you are reminded of the unity that enters into the position in the number twelve.

J.S.E. Is it presented as the spiritual outcome of the exercises that have already been touched?

S.McC. I thought it was. The allusion to the seven angels, and the seven bowls, full of the seven last plagues, would throw us back in our thoughts to what has gone before.

J.S.E. I thought the allusion to the Lamb's wife would involve the road of moral exercises being completed, and she is qualified to have that position on that ground.

S.McC. Just so. She has come through, over against the false woman, the whore that is judged, and she is a trustworthy confidante of the Lamb, of Christ. The other one does not go through. The violent man in Proverbs does not go through and the seductive woman does not go through, but this woman goes through, and the male son goes through.

G.R.C. Is there any help in looking back at chapter 15: 5-8, in this connection, because it says

• "And after these things I saw, and the temple of the tabernacle of witness in the heaven was opened; and the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple, clothed in pure bright linen …"

• The temple of the tabernacle of witness points to the assembly, of course, and the tabernacle of witness is here at the moment, but according to this verse it is in heaven, and these seven angels with the seven plagues come out of the temple of the tabernacle.

• That is, you come out as you may say, from the very heart of the assembly, of course, the presence of God, and it says in verse 8,
  • "And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power".

• It is as though the assembly is entirely in accord with these seven angels going forth – filled with smoke. It is in sympathy with God in His judgments. That precedes what we are on now, and I wondered whether it helped at all.

S.McC. I think it is important to see in that sense the link between the moral side, and the spiritual side here, in the Lamb's wife; we cannot, as it were, divorce the two. While they may be separate departments, the one leads into the other, so that we must be right morally if we are going to move in power spiritually in kingship, and in priesthood in administration and the service of God.

W.S.S. In chapter 18 it says, "Rejoice over her, heaven, and ye saints and apostles and prophets; for God has judged your judgment upon her".

• I was thinking of that in connection with the remark as to the necessity of the saints being in communion with God in regard to the moral conditions around.

S.McC. It is very important that we should be in accord with heaven's judgment of matters. It says of certain "they shall be priests of God", not priests to God, but

• "they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years".

• That is, priesthood is blending with royalty in the administration of the kingdom.

— While it may appear that the assembly is out of sight, in the previous chapters, from chapter 4 to the one we have now read, actually she is there all the time.

S.McC. Do not you think that that is very helpful and important in regard to the present dispensation? We may have thought that the assembly was out of sight, in certain periods, but she is there all the time.

A.P.C.L. Is verse 10 important in view of our seeing this matter,

• "And he carried me away in the Spirit, and set me on a great and high mountain"?

• So many people say they cannot see these things.

S.McC. That is a good point to finish with. We need to see how near the Spirit is to us in regard to these things, and how available He is to us, to help us to see the assembly and what the assembly is to Christ in this light.

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