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READING  5
THE SUBSTANTIALITY OF CHRISTIANITY (5) 1 John 5

A.J.G. This chapter seems to emphasise the victory, or supremacy, that attaches to those who are begotten of God, the very existence of the world, which lies in the wicked one, only giving occasion for the superiority and ultimate supremacy of God, showing itself in those begotten of Him, to come into evidence.

• It is a great triumph for God, that He should be established thus in supremacy in the hearts of His own. We get the statement to begin with, that
  • "Every one that believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God",

• and then the love amongst ourselves that embraces those who are thus begotten of Him.

• We can see, I think, that no one but one who is begotten of God would believe that Jesus is the Christ. He is the kind of Man, according to Isaiah 53, who is despised and rejected of men, one from whom men turn away; so that no one but one in whom God has wrought would believe that Jesus is the Christ, the chosen One of God, to the exclusion of every other.

• So that Christ, in that way, becomes the test and the evidence of the work of God, or of the generation of God.

• As soon as the matter of loving the children of God comes in, the Spirit of God – through the writer of the epistle – brings in, as He often does, an immediate test, a test as to the genuineness of our love, whether it really is love that is of God or not.
  • "Hereby know we that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments".

E.J.B. Would you be free to say a word as to associations in detail? I was thinking that we are all clear as to the trade union question, but I was wondering about certain other associations.

A.J.G. I think the scripture is so clear that it ought not to be necessary to say anything much about it. The scripture does not say, Do not belong to trade unions; the scripture says,

• "Be not diversely yoked with unbelievers; for what participation is there between righteousness and lawlessness? or what fellowship of light with darkness? and what consent of Christ with Beliar, or what part for a believer along with an unbeliever?"

• Then it says, "Wherefore come out from the midst of them, and be separated, saith the Lord, and touch not what is unclean".

• "Touch not" – that is uncompromising. Well now, it should be very simple to apply those principles to actual conditions that exist, and things by which we are tested.

T.J.G. There is a good deal of confusion, nevertheless, in the minds of some, as to what is meant. Would I be permitted to name some of the associations that are exercising some brethren?

A.J.G. I think it is a good thing in a meeting like this to keep to the principles and the truth, and it is in the application of the principles to actual things that we are tested as to our faithfulness.

P.H.H. Do you think the word in 2 Corinthians 7, that we had last night, about cleansing ourselves

• "from every pollution of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God's fear",

• would help us as to any distinctions which we might not be quite clear about?

A.J.G. I think it would.

P.H.H. It has been said, has it not, that to refuse membership of trade unions is a matter of basic righteousness, but some of these other things may require the exercise of practical holiness, and that I suppose is a more sensitive kind of standard.

A.J.G. Quite so. It is significant to me that in Leviticus we are told that

• "every offering of thine oblation shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thine oblation – with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt", Leviticus 2: 13.

• Well now, we constantly draw near to God; we draw near to Him not only with burnt-offerings, but with the oblation, which involves a certain exercise as to subjective correspondence in us with what we profess to appreciate in the burnt-offering;

• but all these oblations must have salt, and I believe salt may be regarded as the fear of God. The fear of God is to enter into every matter. If we draw near to God we are to be characteristically marked by the fear of God.

J.McK. So that the glory of the matter is that it is our faith that overcomes the world. You were speaking yesterday of a certain climax in Enoch, walking with God. By faith he would arrive at the mind of God, would he not, and be strengthened in his path; so that there is a glory in faith doing these things, overcoming the world.

A.J.G. I am sure of that, and every day that Enoch walked with God he would become more sensitive and more separate.

A.B.P. Is it worthy of note that the man who said he had bought five yoke of oxen said, Please have me for excused?

A.J.G. Yes, excused. That is, it was a compromise.

M.L.J.M. Would the Lord's own words in His prayer in John 17 help, when He says,

• "I do not demand that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them out of evil".

A.J.G. It would indeed, and then He goes further and says,

• "and I sanctify myself for them, that they also may be sanctified by truth".

• So that we are to keep our eye upon Christ, and the place where He is, in order to learn what the true measure of sanctification for us in God's mind is.

G.R.C. In Hebrews 12 it says,

• "Wherefore let us, receiving a kingdom not to be shaken, have grace, by which let us serve God acceptably with reverence and fear".

• The word 'serve' is priestly service. Would you regard then the "reverence and fear" there as the salt, that you were referring to?

A.J.G. Yes, I would.

Eu.R. The scripture referred to in 2 Corinthians 6 is very uncompromising, is it not?

A.J.G. That is the whole point, and therefore the fear of God operating in us would take it up in its uncompromisingness.

• I suppose most of us – or all of us, I hope – draw near to God, you might say, with a burnt-offering every day; we draw near to God and make mention of the name of the Lord Jesus.

• But then with our daily burnt-offering there must be an oblation and a drink offering, which involves a certain subjective correspondence in us to that which we profess to appreciate in the burnt-offering, and with all our oblations we must see that there is salt.

G.R.C. Would having "a kingdom not to be shaken" encourage us? God can see us through, would you say?

A.J.G. Yes, exactly.

A.P.C.L. Do you think the way in which John speaks here of "our faith" would preserve us from independent thinking and independent action? It is not the faith exactly, it is the same meaning, but it is "our faith". Should unity mark us in what we are doing in these matters?

A.J.G. It certainly should. That is an important matter. So that the ministry has in view our arriving at the unity of the faith.

A.P.C.L. Just so. So that it is not a question exactly of what I may think, or my estimate; it is to be governed by our faith that is being taken on, corresponding with the faith?

A.J.G. Quite so.

S.H. The difficulty with many of us – if I might be allowed to say it – is that the trade union is a test of fellowship, but there seems to be other associations that are very serious and we do not seem able to help our brethren locally as to these matters.

A.J.G. I think there is a good deal of exercise over other matters besides trade unions. The trade unions were perhaps the most flagrant because of their obviously evil and murderous character,

• but there are other associations that are certainly causing much concern among the brethren, and many brethren have repudiated them.

• I have no doubt we shall find that the requirements of the fellowship, the holiness that it involves, will necessitate our being much stricter.

G.A.L. I was wondering whether it helps a little to see what God says to Satan in the 3rd of Genesis, right at the beginning of this matter,

• "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed",

• and the victory and the final crushing of Satan seems to be through the conflict as thus carried on.

A.J.G. Yes, exactly.

A.W.P. Is there not something very choice in this thought of victory, and the expression "Who is he ...?" It brings it home to each one of us individually to have part in it.

A.J.G. Yes. It is a very important matter and an invigorating matter, if we look at it in its right light, that it is given to us in grace to have part personally in this triumph of God over what is of the devil in the world.

P.H.H. "Who is he ...?" Would that be Daniel? And then "our faith", the collective thing, would that be the three in the furnace?

A.J.G. Well, they would illustrate it.

P.H.H. That is what I mean.

J.McK. Following the great faith chapter in Hebrews, the apostle speaks of us

• "having so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, laying aside every weight".

• Would not the cloud of witnesses stand for the unity of faith in the testimony? It is one cloud, is it not? All these men of faith were in one great matter, the testimony.

A.J.G. They were, and therefore you could rightly call it "the unity of faith".

• But now we have got "the unity of the faith", the Christian faith; and the Christian faith, which is governed by the full revelation of God and the presence of the Holy Spirit, is necessarily more sensitive and requires more separation than the faith of Old Testament saints.

G.A.L. That is, the nearer we are to God in holy privilege, the more we ought to be holy in ourselves to correspond with that?

A.J.G. Exactly.

C.W.O'L.M. Does not Jude's epistle take up this very matter? It refers to

• "the faith once delivered to the saints",

• and to all the unholy associations that surround it?

A.J.G. Yes, it does.

A.B.P. Would being "born of water and of Spirit" – I have in mind particularly the water now – if it is an experience of soul, help us in relation to these unclean matters we are speaking of?

• We have been "born anew" and being "born of water and of Spirit". I wondered if there is not an intimate link between that and baptism, and the general principle of the use of the water freely, for cleansing, that we may be free from every pollution.

A.J.G. I think that is right. So that being born of water brings in the moral element, does it not?

W.C. Is Naaman an illustration of that? He had to wash seven times in Jordan, not in any other water. I was thinking it would correspond with the various issues in 2 Corinthians 6, and the different things that have to be faced. Did he not face the whole thing and completely dissociate himself from all that he had once been in?

A.J.G. Yes. So that his flesh came again as the flesh of a little child.

W.C. He was an overcomer, was he not? He got the victory over the world.

A.J.G. Quite so.

W.C. Would not the world with him be the other waters, but he bowed to the value of the waters of Jordan?

A.J.G. Yes, he must accept Jordan, and that is the place where Elijah had gone through before he was taken up into heaven.

W.C. Yes, and would the way the Lord has gone be an appeal to us in relation to these associations? And make a way for us out of the whole thing into what is of God? Would that not help us, in facing these things and taking the plunge?

A.J.G. Quite.

G.R.C. Does verse 6 help us in that way,

• "This is he that came by water and blood"?

A.J.G. Yes, I was thinking we should pass on to that now.

• "This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus the Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood".

• And then "it is the Spirit that bears witness".

C.A.W. Why is it that in the gospel the blood comes before the water, and here the water before the blood?

A.J.G. The blood coming before the water, I suppose, is foundational, as establishing, through the death of Christ, the basis of our blessing, and as bringing out the testimony to divine love,

• but this is an epistle addressed to those who are already believers and therefore the water is brought first.

• It is the moral aspect of the death of Christ, as setting us apart from all that is unclean by the unreserved acceptance of death.

• It is not by water only, it is not reforming the first man, it is by water and blood. It is a cleansing that is made effective through death.

E.C.M. Does it involve the complete removal of the first order of man?

A.J.G. Exactly.

E.C.M. And the blood has met the claims of God, but here the water aspect comes first?

A.J.G. Yes, the water aspect coming first shows that it is the cleansing that is in mind.

• But then it is not by water only, but by water and blood. Blood is the witness that death has come in. As you say, it is the complete ending of the man who was unclean, and that has to be accepted by us unreservedly in the power of the Spirit.

G.R.C. Did not Mr. Taylor say many years ago that in the flood God cleansed the earth by water only? It is very affecting that in the death of Christ there is complete cleansing.

A.J.G. Quite so.

G.R.C. And yet it is by water and blood, which should touch our hearts, because we are preserved, are we not, and carried over?

A.J.G. Exactly. The man is removed and yet the persons are retained and set up in life in God's Son.

G.W.B. What is the bearing of the way it is put "This is he that came …"?

A.J.G. That it was deliberately in mind in His coming in. He came on this principle, to set aside one order of manhood and life in that man, and to introduce life in Himself beyond death, and the Spirit is the witness to us that God has given us eternal life and this life is in His Son.

G.R.C. I wondered if this would help us as to associations, because if God were to deal with them in themselves He would have to sweep the scene right away, and because, on account of the blood, we are retained for His pleasure, why should we go on with those things which morally in the death of Christ were swept away?

A.J.G. Exactly. The tares are being gathered in bundles to be burned; that is the end of the bundles, to be burned. It is a good thing to bear that in mind.

Ques. Is there a responsibility on the local brethren to deal with these matters of associations, in the light of what has been said about "our faith"? Should it be brought home to the individual locally?

A.J.G. Yes, it certainly should. It leaves scope for individual pastoral care, to start with, but it must be followed up. If it is not paid heed to, it should be followed up by the local company.

P.H.H. The fact that it is in 2 Corinthians, a local epistle, would confirm that, would it not?

A.J.G. It would, indeed.

W.J.T. Should it be preceded by what we get in verse 16 of our chapter,

• "If any one see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life, for those that do not sin unto death".

A.J.G. Quite so. That is one thing that we are to do; we are to use the nearness to God that we have on behalf of those whom we may see sinning, but then there are other things come into it too.

• If a man be taken in a fault, those who are spiritual are at once called into play; they should exercise their influence in seeking to restore him.

A.P.T. Does this statement

• "This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus the Christ",

• refer to the incarnation?

A.J.G. Yes. What is in your mind?

A.P.T. It says "He that came …". I wondered if it not only refers to His death but also to His incarnation?

A.J.G. I think the whole thing hangs together; He came on that principle; He comes into testimony. He came to die. That is what the Lord came for. He did not come to improve the world, or to improve man in the flesh; He came to end man in the flesh and open up another world beyond death.

A.B.P. And does not this give us an incentive to have an attitude of mind or of purpose of heart?

A.J.G. It does, indeed.

C.H. Did not Mr. Darby call attention to the different prepositions used, "he that came by water" is the character in which He came, but "not by water only, but by water and blood" is the power displayed by Him according to that character.

A.J.G. I am not sure that I quite follow that. Would you mind enlarging on it?

C.H. Well, I think he makes a point of the fact that the Lord came into that condition. That is what our brother, I think, now refers to. At the incarnation He came into that position and condition, but in that position power and efficacy was in Him, so that He met the situation fully in those He met, and do you think the power and efficacy of that now applies to the saints in the Spirit, but it was in the Lord when He was here.

A.J.G. Quite so. So that it is the Spirit that makes these things good to us. While the water and the blood are mentioned first, it says

• "it is the Spirit that bears witness, for the Spirit is the truth. For they that bear witness are three – the Spirit" – putting the Spirit first – "and the water, and the blood; and the three agree in one".

C.H. Putting the thing simply, is not the water for sanctification and the blood for justification?

A.J.G. That is true, but I think there is more in the blood in this passage, because it seems to me where it says

• "not by water only, but by water and blood",

• it is emphasizing that the sanctification or cleansing that was in mind is a sanctification or cleansing that is effected by means of death, but love witnessing to that

• And that is what we really need to lay hold of, that it is the complete ending of the man, the Spirit being the power for us to take that up.

G.A.L. So that while it was a witness to the wonderful love of God, there was what was judicial about it?

A.J.G. There was, indeed.

H.D.T. Would it be appropriate to ask whether there is any connection with the waters of purification – the red heifer in Numbers 19, and the water here?

A.J.G. I think there would be. There is a link morally with that, as far as I understand the truth. That was a permanent provision, that they had to carry with them in the wilderness, was it not?

H.D.T. Yes, it was a question not merely of the meeting of guilt, it was the matter of the maintenance of communion.

A.J.G. Quite so.

H.D.T. And does not the water have that particularly in view?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so. So that the Spirit is the prominent matter,

• "the Spirit is the truth".

P.H.H. How far does that go? What is your thought about that? "The Spirit is the truth".

A.J.G. I think it goes very far indeed; that is my impression.

• We are well acquainted, of course, with the fact that the Lord says that He Himself is the truth,
  • "I am the way, and the truth, and the life".

• That is, the truth is before us in Christ objectively, but then the answer to that is that the Spirit in the believer is the truth subjectively,
  • and the more we can arrive at the reality of practical subjection to the Spirit the more we shall be practically in the truth.

• Anything that is really of the Spirit in us will certainly be the truth. I do not know whether that helps?

P.H.H. Yes, thank you. Are we to understand that the mention of coming by water and blood, first of all, before the Spirit is mentioned, means that the truth can only be operative with us by the Spirit as we accept death in the practical teaching and value of it?

A.J.G. I think so. It is only on the basis of death that the Spirit has come, and that is an important matter, because it is a question of the witness that we have in ourselves. We have the Spirit as witness in ourselves,

• but then the Spirit has come consequent upon Christ having died and gone to the right hand of God.

• The Spirit is always faithful in our hearts to Christ as He is and to His death.

E.C.M. Would it be right to say that the water and the blood and the Spirit are the means by which we come consciously into the enjoyment of eternal life?

A.J.G. Yes, it would, the Spirit itself being the power for the enjoyment of eternal life and the witness that we have it.

A.B.P. In connection with the statement "the Spirit is the truth" would it be right to say that the Spirit finds expression through persons, so that this is not entirely an abstract statement, but a matter that is worked out through persons?

A.J.G. I think so. So that if a brother stands up and he is speaking in the Spirit, what he says will certainly be the truth.

C.W.C. Would that clause show the seriousness of refusing what the Spirit is giving at any particular time in ministry?

A.J.G. It certainly would.

G.W.B. What is the distinction between the water here and in Ephesians 5,

• "the washing of water by the word"?

A.J.G. I think there is a strong link there, because I understand the word for 'washing' there is not the same word as for feet-washing, but it is the full thought; it is the thought of bathing.

• It seems to me therefore that that refers to the way that Christ in His love for the assembly would bring home to our hearts the full import of His death, as setting us apart from all that once attached to us, in order that we might take account of ourselves as
  • "of his flesh, and of his bones".

J.S.E. So that the Spirit, as being first in the three that bear witness, is enforcing upon the family this great matter as to the necessity of moral suitability in order to enjoy to the full what is connected with the blood, because the blood involves the termination of one condition, does it not, and the opening up of another?

A.J.G. Yes, and the Spirit and the water and the blood agree in this witness,

• "that God has given us eternal life; and this life is in his Son".

• Hence the whole point with us now, I think, is how far we are really sowing to the Spirit and reaping life eternal as a practical thing.

J.S.E. So that the matter of associations, that has been raised, is determined by us severally as we yield to the Spirit and lay hold of the necessity of moral suitability for entry into what is the other side, which is connected with eternal life, is it not?

A.J.G. Quite so.

R.J.W. Does James, chapter 4, bear on what we are speaking about? It says in verse 4,

• "Whoever therefore is minded to be the friend of the world is constituted enemy of God".

• Then he goes on to speak about the Spirit,
  • "Does the Spirit which has taken his abode in us desire enviously?"

• And then the last two verses in the epistle show how serious it is to be caught in these things.

A.J.G. That is so, and one is touched much of recent years by that verse in James,

• "the Spirit which has taken his abode in us",

• as though He would take possession in order that we might be held for God, and it says
  • "He gives more grace".

• He is prepared to help in all the practical exercises that God dwelling in us entails for us.

A.J.G. Yes, I think so. I think it is most stimulating that the world that the Son of God has opened up is a world of love, the Father's love for the Son. The Father has many families, and they are all headed up in One who is the Object of love.

G.A.L. In the beginning of the meeting our brother. Mr. L., referred to eternal life here as being viewed in the Son. Obviously something was in mind, and I wondered if we could have the benefit of that?

P.L. Well, the terminal of the epistle is eternal life in this Person, is it not?

A.J.G. It is. I think you said that we do not get sonship as applying to the saints in John's writings, except just the allusion in Revelation 21.

• On the other hand, it is just a question – and I do not think I am saying anything different from what Mr. Taylor once said – whether eternal life may not include sonship, only that the great thought of sonship is what is for the pleasure of God, whereas eternal life is what we enjoy.

• I think we must come to it, at least that is one's impression, that so far as the inheritance we come into is concerned, what is enjoyed in the way of eternal life includes the present enjoyment of sonship.

G.R.C. So that while eternal life is a wide thought, and the saved families will come into it, have we not life of the highest order in that realm?

A.J.G. Yes. Life in His Son.

H.D.T. Is it remarkable that in the well-known passage in John 17, the Lord says,

• "Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son".

• It certainly goes on later to say
  • "that they should know thee, the only true God" – speaking to the Father – "and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent",

• but the prelude is "glorify thy Son". Would you say something about that?

A.J.G. It is very remarkable that the Lord speaks in the third person there, but what have you to say?

H.D.T. I was only just thinking that whilst eternal life is to be enjoyed now, we cannot entirely exclude the thought of relationship from it.

A.J.G. Quite so.

J.McD. Is there a certain link between eternal life and sonship in verse 20 of this chapter?

A.J.G. That is, it is His Son Jesus Christ, who is the eternal life. Is that what is in your mind?

J.McD. Yes. The whole verse is connected with the Son of God, and being

• "in his Son Jesus Christ"

• is linked up with the thought of eternal life.

A.J.G. I think we want to keep the truth in its proper setting, as far as possible. One does not want to go too far in it,

• but I think eternal life, as being the present inheritance that the saints are brought into to enjoy, must include the enjoyment on our part of sonship,

• but the prime thought of sonship, of course, is that it is for the pleasure of God.

P.H.H. Is what is being said to give us an understanding that, according to Scripture, eternal life has a kind of dual aspect.

• For Israel, for instance, it will have an earthly aspect, then shall the nations go away into life eternal,

• but in regard of the assembly it has a higher aspect which touches on this great matter of sonship?

A.J.G. I think that is right. Eternal life, of course, is, as you say, a very wide thought embracing Israel and the saved nations on the earth in the day to come,

• but all that the assembly enters into must have a uniquely heavenly character attaching to it.

W.C. Would it be right to say that eternal life primarily is a matter of God and men?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so.

W.C. It seems the way that God preserves the race, does it not? He has brought to pass, in His Son, what has met the whole moral question and opened up a sphere of life beyond death.

A.J.G. I suppose it really has a certain testimonial bearing; that is to say, it is what is seen to be enjoyed in the presence of death, or in the scene where death has been.

W.C. So that I suppose eternal life especially links with the world to come, and sonship with the eternal scene, but would there not be an overlapping in our case?

A.J.G. I think so. I think this epistle rather shows that there is a certain overlapping, because eternal life seems to be put on such a high level here. It is connected with the thought of fellowship with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

J.T.S. Is there any connection with what we have in the 2nd chapter, verse 24,

• "if what ye have heard from the beginning abides in you, ye also shall abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise which he has promised us, life eternal".

A.J.G. Yes, I think there is. But we ought before we close to touch on verse 20 because it is such an important one.

• It says "we know", as though the writer of the epistle is summing things up now.
  • "We know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding that we should know him that is true; and we are in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life".

• It is a remarkable appellation, that we should know "him that is true". It is not here to know "the true God", which would be God in contrast to false gods, but know God in that character, "him that is true".

• That is, as I understand it, One who has everything in its right moral relation; He has man in his proper relationship with Him as God, in the place of subjection, and secures it eternally, and yet it is morally right, because of what He is in His nature, that man should be in the greatest possible nearness.

• So "him that is true" really in the working out of it, involves, it seems to me, the light in which we know God, the whole economy. All is the result, it seems to me, of the fact that He is true and loves to have things in their true relation.

W.S.S. Does knowing "Him that is true" give us a true standard for every moral matter; it goes on to say,

• "keep yourselves from idols".

A.J.G. Yes. Quite so.

J.H. In John 7 the Lord says,

• "he that sent me is true".

• Earlier than that He says,
  • "he that seeks the glory of him that has sent him, he is true",

• emphasising the Father and the Son as being true, as you are saying.

A.J.G. Yes, quite so. It seems to me, not that one can say much about it, to be worth pondering that God should be presented to us as the One that is true.

• He will have everything true in the relations that are morally proper to it – Himself supreme – the creature subject, and yet because He is love and desires to express His love towards His creature, the man must be with Him in conditions suitable to that love.

A.B.P. And is the truth the means by which we are brought into that?

A.J.G. I think so, so that it all centres in His Son. The Son of God has come, and then it says,

• "we are in him that is true", that is, in God, "in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life".

• It is as though the whole truth, in both sides of it so to speak, is centred in Christ.

A.N.G. Is it not affecting that at the outset of the epistle we have the report as to the eternal life, which was with the Father, and then at the end it is

• "this life is in his Son"?

• Is that a suggestion that these things will be secured and enjoyed in family relationships?

A.J.G. Yes, quite so, and yet the family relationships really eventuate in this that man is seen in right relations with God.

G.R.C. Would you say another word as to your remark that both sides are seen in Christ,

• "He is the true God and eternal life".

• Will both sides be seen in Him eternally?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so. We shall never see God save in Christ, and manhood according to the heart of God is before Him always in Christ, and the saints in Him.

G.R.C. Would the full place Christ has in that way help us in the worship of God?

A.J.G. I think it would. We never dispense with the Mediator.

G.R.C. So that while in the eternal state it says

• "the Son also himself shall be placed in subjection",

• it does not alter this truth, does it, that He is still the true God and will be worshipped as such?

A.J.G. Quite so. It does not alter that at all.

H.D.T. But it shows that sonship continues, does it not?

A.J.G. Oh! it does. "Then shall the Son also himself be placed in subjection", it says. That is eternally.

S.J.H. Mr. Darby remarked as to "the true God and eternal life", and used the expression 'identity of extent'. I wondered if that verse would suggest to us that while we distinguish between the Persons in the Deity we should not separate Them in our minds?

A.J.G. I believe that is always important in speaking of God, that while we are permitted to distinguish between the Father and the Son and the Spirit, yet we have to remember that God is One, and always carry that in our thoughts, and not be unduly analytical.

E.J.H. Does every feature of idolatry hinder our enjoyment of eternal life?

A.J.G. It certainly would. This is a very fine climax to arrive at, that

• "we are in him that is true".

• We are in God, in His Son Jesus Christ. That does not mean, of course, that we have part in Deity, but it does mean that we are held in the most intimate nearness in the knowledge of the blessed God in His nature of love.

W.C. So that, in result, what we have here shows that God has never deviated from any of His thoughts.

A.J.G. No.

W.C. The situation created by sin has brought out the greatness of God in the Three Persons, and all that has been effected and secured in the saints, an eternal scene where God will dwell.

A.J.G. It has indeed, and it establishes in that way the supremacy of God. That is to be made good now in the hearts of the saints, as it will be made good throughout the universe.

L.F. Mr. Raven very simply summed it up for us in his saying that eternal life for us is living in the love of God.

A.J.G. Quite so.

G.C.S. Is it of interest that in the end of Matthew where the lie comes in and is circulated, that the Lord says

• "make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"?

• Is the full force of God in the economy to meet and answer and overcome the lie?

A.J.G. That is very striking.

J.A.P. In this sense is there what is eternal attached to the thought of eternal life?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so. Although, of course, the term "eternal life" will cease to have any force in eternity, I think the character of eternal life as known now is that it is what is eternal.

Page Top   Reading 5 Top

READING  6
THE SUBSTANTIALITY OF CHRISTIANITY (6) 2 John 1-13; 3 John 1-14

A.J.G. It will be noticed that these two epistles, which are of a personal character, emphasise the truth first of all as that which is a bond between us, so that John says that he loves

• "the elect lady and her children",

• and "all who have known the truth"

• loved them as well, for the truth's sake, and then in the third epistle John's children give him joy by reason of their
  • "walking in the truth".

• Then further we are to be
  • "fellow-workers with the truth",

• and finally the truth itself bears witness to those who are formed by it.

• It is a very striking position that she is entrusted in that way with the defence of the truth in her own sphere, and that, of course, would work out in the assembly being preserved,

• and I am sure what you say is important, that of recent years it has come to us authoritatively that the sisters are to be brought into all matters regarding the assembly, as being themselves essential component parts of it.

W.C. Is this the answer to the serpent's approach to the woman and the lie that brought in all the trouble, God's triumph at the end in sisters?

A.J.G. That is very good.

J.S.E. Is that why the word 'woman' is omitted and two other words are employed? We have "elect lady" and "elect sister".

A.J.G. They are honoured in that way and not spoken of merely as women.

P.H.H. In what sense is the truth to "be with us to eternity"?

A.J.G. I think it is with us in virtue of the abiding presence with us of the Spirit, so that the Spirit maintains our souls eternally, and we are dependent on Him for it, in the full light of God as known in Christ. Would you think that?

P.H.H. You are referring it back somewhat then to the expression "the Spirit is the truth"?

A.J.G. Yes.

W.C. We have the two words in the second verse "in us" and "with us".

A.J.G. The very same words that the Lord uses in John 14.

W.C. Quite so.

P.H.H. And while all this will be with us in eternity, does the expression "to eternity" mean that throughout time all the necessities, including all the evil, will be amply and fully met by the truth in the Spirit?

A.J.G. I think so. So that what finally remains is just the truth with nothing to contest it.

A.B. Would the reference to the lady's children have bearing on the motherly and sisterly element among the saints in view of the protection and nurture of the coming generation, and would it bear on the protection of the household and the assembly?

A.J.G. That is very important. It is striking that in 2 John 4 he says,

• "I rejoiced greatly that I have found of thy children" – the elect lady's children "walking in truth",

• which is a tribute to her own influence and moral power, whereas in 3 John 4 he says
  • "I have no greater joy than these things that I hear of my children walking in the truth".

J.S.E. Is this term, "the elect lady", a kind of verification of the word in 1 Timothy about the women ruling the house?

A.J.G. I was thinking that as we were speaking a moment ago. This second epistle seems to contemplate peculiarly the sphere where the sisters have a special place.

• As you say, there is the thought of their ruling the house and they have to be watchful as to nothing being allowed in it that is contrary to the truth, and the allusion to her children walking in truth seems to me to be a very great commendation of this sister as testifying to her moral power.

E.J.H. Do you think that might be why they are not named? In the next epistle the brothers are named, and it says

• "Greet the friends by name"

• in that epistle. Do you think this might refer to sisters generally, what they should take up?

A.J.G. I think that is so.

A.B.P. Is there any link between this and Luke 15? It occurred to me as you were speaking that it is intimately linked with the Spirit's operation and yet in the style of a woman and in the house, which seems to be an appropriate setting. I just wondered if there might be a connection?

A.J.G. I think that is very suggestive, so that is it not the Spirit really that preserves the truth against attacks, and yet it is the Spirit here operating in a woman, a sister, in her house?

T.J.G. Would verse 9 of the second epistle, having in mind

• "whosoever goes forward",

• be a satanic imitation of the Spirit's present voice in the face of the testimony,

• and in the third epistle, in Diotrephes, have we the debasing of an outstanding lead by dictatorial methods?

A.J.G. I think that would be right.

G.R.C. Could you help as to the bearing of the two words

• "the faith" and "the truth"?

• The elect lady seems to be in the conflict for the faith in resisting false doctrine?

A.J.G. The two expressions are very much the same from one point of view, but I think

• "the faith" is what we embrace,

• "the truth" is the truth as to God which is entrusted to us to preserve.

• Would you say that, or have you something further in mind?

G.R.C. No, I have not. I think that helps, but I wish you would say a little more.

A.J.G. Well, "the faith" is what we embrace. We have to have faith and we embrace what is presented to us in testimony and it becomes "the faith" among the saints and it has to be contended for.

• But this is "the truth", the truth as to God, you might say; God is in it, although it is worked out among His children.

A.B.P. Are the two seen suggestively here in "the paper" and "the pen"? I noticed that in the second epistle it is "paper and ink", in the third it is "ink and pen". I wondered if "the paper" might suggest our receptivity, linking on with what you said as to the faith, "the pen" rather the presentation, linking on with the thought of the truth.

A.J.G. That is very helpful.

A.P.C.L. Does verse 3 show that there will be sufficiency supplied to carry this out? It is the only time that the salutation is so positive, is it?

A.J.G. It says it "shall be with you", and is it not one of the fullest salutations?

• "Grace, … mercy, peace from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love".

• It is a most striking salutation for an individual, to a single sister.

A.P.C.L. I wondered whether if we were prepared to take up the truth, for the truth's sake, we can be assured that grace shall be with us in that setting?

A.J.G. I am sure that is so. I believe the more we are committed simply to the truth, as you say, for the truth's sake, the more we shall experience grace and mercy and peace in the detail of our lives and exercises.

G.R.C. And why does it say

• "the Son of the Father, in truth and love"?

• Why is the term "in truth" introduced?

A.J.G. I think it is that grace shall be with you, mercy and peace, in truth and love; that is how I would read it.

W.C. Is that verse like the supplies flowing into the fortress to sustain the position? She is holding the ground, is she not, in her household and amongst her children, and this passage suggests the abundant supplies to hold the position.

A.J.G. Yes. It is very remarkable how the writer of the epistle, the apostle, emphasises truth always, he says "in truth and love".

• That is a very important feature, because some who are really opposing the recovery that is characteristic of this last century or more, make much of love and would have the saints surrender the truth for love's sake. But, in contrast to that, the apostle puts truth first, "in truth and love".

H.F.R. Does John in speaking of himself as "the elder" indicate the great need of eldership in relation to the truth? While the epistles are written to individuals, the elders would be concerned that the truth might be maintained in our localities?

A.J.G. I think that is right. It is striking that John never calls himself an apostle, but

• he seems to base his authority on what he was, what he was known to be among the saints as having moral power as an elder.

• There is an affectionate touch therefore about the way he thus addresses the saints.

A.J.G. That is the ground of condemnation of some, is it not, that they have not received the love of the truth? What is in your mind?

J.P.H. I was just wondering about the positive side of it, that the Spirit of God would give us to love the truth and go in for it. We should seek His help and the help of God to arrive at it in our souls and perhaps be able to help each other. Would that command us as loving it?

A.J.G. Do you think that might involve that it is not a question simply of receiving or accepting the truth mentally, but that it is really loved? We take it home to ourselves in that way.

J.P.H. I thought that.

H.D.T. It is never intended to be a system of theology, is it?

A.J.G. No, it is not. The truth is centred in the Person of Christ, and if the truth is loved it is because Christ is loved.

P.L. Does this unique expression "the Son of the Father" have peculiar force in relation to what you are saying? I wondered about the Song of Songs presenting the defence of Solomon's couch; he is referred to in relation to love with his father, is he not?

A.J.G. Yes.

P.L. Is she one of those "threescore mighty men, ... the mighty of Israel"? Having her sword upon her thigh because of alarm in the nights?

A.J.G. I am sure that is right, and this character of sister, and of course brothers with the same character, are needed all through to the end, are they not?

P.L. She is a Deborah, is she not, a militant, a feminine vessel?

A.J.G. Quite so, because of alarm in the nights. There may be one alarm and there may be another one very shortly; you never know, and therefore the sword has got to be on the thigh all through the nights.

P.L. Those who stand by night in the house of the Lord.

A.J.G. That is the other side to it. They stand by night or in the nights, having part in the service of God, do they not? But that must be preceded by standing through the nights with the sword on the thigh, because of alarm.

C.J.H.D. Would the exercises of Psalm 119 enter into the household setting? The Psalmist, towards the end of that Psalm, says

• "The sum of thy word is truth, and every righteous judgment of thine is for ever", Psalm 119: 160.

• Would that long Psalm result in our appreciating the truth?

A.J.G. I think it would. "The sum of thy word is truth" is a striking expression and then "every righteous judgment of thine is forever".

• In Jeremiah it says that God is truth,
  • "But Jehovah Elohim is truth; he is the living God, and the king of eternity", Jeremiah 10: 10.

• God is said to be truth.

P.H.H. Would that be for us in the fulness of revelation?

A.J.G. Yes, I suppose it would.

H.C.S. In Isaiah 65: 16 we have "the God of truth".

• "He … shall bless himself by the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the land shall swear by the God of truth".

A.J.G. That is very interesting. I think it bears on what we were saying this morning as to "him that is true", not simply the true God, but that is His character.

• He is true and it is a most encouraging and comforting thing that God is truth and is spoken of as "Him that is true". Everything therefore will be established in right moral relations to God and to one another.

A.P.C.L. But He is not said to be "the truth"?

A.J.G. No. "He is true".

A.P.C.L. Yes. Is "the truth", therefore, the setting out of the matter?

A.J.G. I would think so, first as set out in Christ, then as maintained among the saints by the Spirit.

A.P.C.L. Answering to what God is as "truth" and "true"?

A.J.G. Quite so.

Ques. Are you going to distinguish for us between "walking in truth" and "walking in the truth"?

A.J.G. Well, "walking in truth" is just what we are saying, that everything in our walk is rightly regulated, there is nothing out of balance or out of proportion in it.

• But "walking in the truth" is that our walk, of course, is governed by the light in which God is known.

A.H. Is John very particular about that kind of thing, practically, as seen in the way he refers to the report that had got round amongst the brethren? It then says that he himself is true,

• "his witness is true". John 21: 24?

A.J.G. That is striking, because that is one of the most distressing features of the present time, inaccurate reports among the brethren.

J.T.S. In Zechariah 8: 8 we have

• "I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness"

  and then later, verse 16,

• "speak truth every one with his neighbour; execute truth and the judgment of peace in your gates".

  Then again, verse 19,

• "Love ye then truth and peace".

• This is to reach a glorious climax, is it not? Are these the matters we are at at the present time?

A.J.G. Yes, I think that is right and I am very thankful for this emphasis on truth, not only the truth, but truth.

• I believe it begins with our facing exercises with God, as David did in Psalm 51, that God will have truth in the inward parts, and the Spirit, having taken up His abode in us, is one of the greatest helps to the maintenance of that.

E.J.H. Has it not been said that we may speak the truth and yet not speak truth?

A.J.G. Well, we can speak things that are verbally true, and yet, as you say, it may not convey the truth.

E.J.H. Is that not a very dangerous thing?

A.J.G. It is, a baneful thing.

H.W. Referring to your remark a minute ago about false and inaccurate reports getting about, there is a solemn word at the beginning of Exodus 23

• "Thou shalt not accept a false report".

• Are we not under obligation to investigate every report that is suspicious that comes to us with regard to any of the saints?

A.J.G. That is so. But even apart from anything that is false or anything that has evil intent in it, there is a great deal of need of watchfulness to be accurate in what is said.

A.G.H. Would reference to Exodus 18 help, please, it speaks of

• "men of truth"?

A.J.G. That is in keeping with what we are saying. That is what Jethro recommended to Moses.

A.G.H. Yes, "Do thou provide among all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness".

A.J.G. That is exactly in keeping with what we are saying.

J.S.E. How does this all bear upon Peter's expression,

• "the present truth"?

A.J.G. What we have been saying as to "truth" and "truth in the inward parts" is a matter of right moral conditions, but

• "the present truth", of course, is that particular feature of the truth – that is what has come out in revelation – which the Spirit of God is particularly pressing upon the saints.

J.S.E. So that this "lady" would be marked by the feature of forward movement as the Spirit developed things amongst the saints. In that way she would have power to carry out the instruction as to those who came to her and were not to be received in the house?

A.J.G. Quite so. They are said to go forward, and they go forward in a wrong way; they go forward as adding to that which was from the beginning, whereas we have to maintain what is from the beginning, which is what this epistle says,

• "this is love, that we should walk according to his commandments. This is the commandment, according as ye have heard from the beginning, that ye might walk in it".

• That has to be maintained, but then there is always the particular feature of the truth that the Spirit is emphasising from time to time and we want to move forward with that, so as to be preserved in the truth.

Eu.R. In 3 John 3 we get

• "I rejoiced exceedingly when the brethren came and bore testimony to thy holding fast the truth, even as thou walkest in truth",

  but in verse 4,

• "I have no greater joy than these things that I hear of my children walking in the truth".

• Would you say a little as to that, "in truth" and "in the truth"?

A.J.G. I think verse 3 is extremely important because the brethren bore testimony to Gaius, and to his holding fast the truth, even as he was walking in truth.

• If we do not walk in truth we shall find we are not able to hold fast the truth. Sooner or later we shall trip up over the truth, if we are not concerned as to walking in truth. But then John goes on to say
  • "I have no greater joy than these things that I hear of my children walking in the truth",

• and that is the way to maintain the truth in testimony, to walk in it.

P.L. So that moral defection often underlies opposition to the truth?

A.J.G. That is so.

J.McM. Would walking in truth be the result of walking in the light as God is in the light?

A.J.G. Yes, I am sure that is so, because

• "that which makes everything manifest is light".

• Light makes everything manifest, and thus, as subject to it continually, we are held in what is morally right, we walk in truth.

H.F.R. The truth is said to be the fruit of the light in Ephesians 5: 9.

A.J.G. Yes, that is very interesting,

• "the fruit of the light is in all goodness and righteousness and truth".

A.P.T. In connection with the reference to moral defection, the third epistle is evidence of it.

• John says "I wrote something to the assembly; but Diotrephes, who loves to have the first place among them, receives us not".

• Is there something in that?

A.J.G. Quite so. That was the moral root that underlay the opposition, and the Spirit of God exposes it.

A.W.G.T. I was wondering if the expression "the upright" is in keeping with truth? In Deuteronomy we get

• "the upright people".

• Would that be in line with what we are saying about speaking truth?

A.J.G. Yes, quite so.

A.W.R. In Amos 7 Jehovah is seen standing on a wall with a plumb-line in His hand and then He says,

• "I will set a plumb-line in the midst of my people Israel" and then "I will arise against the house of Jeroboam with the sword".

A.J.G. Well, that is similar in principle, the plumb-line is the assertion of what is right, it is upright or vertical. It is the assertion of the principle of righteousness, and there is a wall.

• That is, the Lord is showing that the principle of righteousness maintained works out in practical separation; it is really the assertion of the principle of 2 Timothy 2.

• It is in those who are governed by the principles of 2 Timothy 2, that the Lord is maintaining a testimony against Christendom.

E.C.M. Is that not brought out in Malachi 2: 6

• "The law of truth was in his mouth, and unrighteousness was not found in his lips"?

A.J.G. Yes, "the law of truth". Quite so.

W.S.S. The house is an important element here. Is it not a very important matter the way a household is held in relation to the truth?

A.J.G. It is a very important matter.

W.S.S. I was thinking of our brother's reference to the fortress and I wondered if our households are to be a kind of fortress where the truth is held and the enemy is held at bay, so to speak?

A.J.G. Hence the need, not only of reading the Scriptures in the house with the family, but also of speaking over them as matters come to our notice, speaking of them in their moral character, do you think?

W.S.S. Yes. I was thinking that and also what you were referring to earlier in connection with the saying that went about among the brethren. Have we not need of much care in regard to what is said in our homes, in regard to what is current among us?

A.J.G. Yes.

W.S.S. We are perhaps apt to be a little more careless talking in the family circle, than we are when speaking in the meeting, for example. Do we not need great care all the time in dealing with the matters of truth?

A.J.G. I am sure that is a salutary word.

P.H.H. The matter of deception comes in here prominently, verse 7,

• "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, they who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in flesh – this is the deceiver and the antichrist".

• Is that the particular attack and is that the particular matter which needs to be met in the defence of the truth?

• I was just thinking about Absalom's movements, in his beauty and attractiveness as diverting David's people – and insidiously wanting to put himself in office, so to speak. Would that kind of thing need to be guarded against with us?

A.J.G. Yes, I am sure of that. The word 'deceiver' shows that the enemy's effort is to deceive the saints, and then "the antichrist" shows that his objective is to displace Christ, he is against Christ.

• That is the character of this kind of doctrine; there are many false doctrines that are abroad now, deceiving the saints and opposed to Christ.

P.H.H. It says later on that there were many men who went after Absalom in their simplicity. Is there necessity, therefore, for us to be built up in the truth?

A.J.G. Quite so, and to see that the test as to

• "Jesus Christ coming in flesh"

• is applied to what is presented.

P.H.H. Would you just speak about that; I mean we have had it, but what does it mean in this setting?

A.J.G. I think it is similar to what we had in chapter 4 when we were on it; it is the question of the essence of what is presented in teaching.

• It may have an attractive appearance, it may have the appearance even of what is authoritative because Scriptures are quoted.

• We have to see what the essence of it is, as to whether it confesses the true deity of Christ and the true manhood of Christ and the absolute need for the setting aside of the first man. All that, I believe, is involved in "Jesus Christ coming in flesh".

E.J.H. Have not many of our sisters to meet this deception at the door, while their husbands are away?

A.J.G. That often happens.

A.H.G. Would that setting aside, of which you speak, be involved in this

• "doctrine of the Christ", verses 9, 10 and 11

• bringing in this matter of doctrine?

A.J.G. Yes, I think it is involved, because, as we said before, there is only one Christ, the Christ, and that is exclusive of every other man. Everything thus that is of God now is to be gathered up in the Christ and to take character from Him.

A.P.C.L. In verse 8 it says

• "See to yourselves";

• does he widen out to include the children in that? It is a plural matter, so that it is not only "the elect lady" answering for them, but are they not brought into the matter?

A.J.G. I would think so. As you say, he is addressing not only the elect lady, but her children,

• "See to yourselves, that we may not lose what we have wrought, but may receive full wages".

• That is a remarkable consideration to put before the saints, that the labourers who present the truth to us are looking for full wages, judged according to results of their work.

A.P.C.L. It seems to suggest a community in the house corresponding somewhat to the community amongst the saints?

A.J.G. Yes, I would think that.

A.H. Does Paul guard against this in 2 Timothy 3 where he speaks of persons

• "getting into houses" and then goes on and says

• "in the same manner in which James and Jambres withstood Moses, thus these also withstand the truth",

• as if they are doing it first of all in the houses?

A.J.G. Well, that is significant.

W.C. Would not the reverse be profitable too, to welcome the brethren who can bring the right doctrine? Would that help the children in strengthening the position in the household?

A.J.G. That is very good. There is nothing like letting the children have intercourse with the saints, and bringing those who are worthy and spiritual into the house.

A.B.P. Households like this would be seen established in Acts 16, would you say?

A.J.G. I would indeed. So that when Paul and Silas are released from prison they go to Lydia, do they not?

A.B.P. Yes. Do you think that Lydia was taking on current ministry and opening her house to what was right? The jailor is influencing his house;

• he "rejoiced householdly".

A.J.G. Quite so. Lydia proves the worth of her house to be entered into by first having attended to the things spoken by Paul.

G.R.C. So do our households afford scope for working out of the new commandment according to verse 5? Practical love amongst the saints works out a good deal in hospitality and care in the homes?

A.J.G. It does, and along with that is the need of very great care in regard of the truth and not allowing what is contrary to it.

G.R.C. I was thinking that, so that the idea of an open house, in the sense of letting anything in, is not exactly right?

A.J.G. No. It is open to those who go forth for the name, as we have in the third epistle.

G.W.B. Do not the tents of Dathan and Abiram figure significantly in connection with the rebellion, in Numbers 16?

• I was wondering too, on the other hand, whether the blessing through Balaam in connection with the tents and the tabernacles would show what is open to us?

A.J.G. Quite so. It says

• "Dathan and Abiram came out, and stood in the entrance of their tents, and their wives, and their sons, and their little ones".

• The word to the assembly was
  • "Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye perish in all their sins".

• It is as though any uprising against Christ, or against the truth, tends to influence the whole household and all that is connected with it.

P.H.H. "Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be. Blessed above women in the tent!"

• – the way she dealt with the enemy? It says at the end of the song in Judges 5
  • "so let all thine enemies perish. Jehovah! But let them that love him be as the rising of the sun in its might. And the land had rest forty years"

• Would that fit into this a little?

A.J.G. It would, I think. The evil was dealt with in the tent and the result was rest for the people of God.

R.G.B. So is it not important to see that the local company is largely comprised of households and, therefore, the strength and integrity of the household make for the strength and integrity of the local position.

A.J.G. That is very important.

R.J.W. Was it not those of the house of Chloe who brought the report to Paul?

A.J.G. Yes, and Paul not only makes mention of that house but he mentions the house of Stephanas, that they, not Stephanas, but they, the household, the family, had devoted themselves to the saints for service.

W.S.S. It would be good if all our houses were like the Israelites' tents which faced the tabernacle. If all our houses had an assembly outlook, and there was always found an assembly outlook in our homes, it would be good, would it not?

A.J.G. Yes, and governed by the thought of serving God acceptably continually.

W.S.S. Yes.

P.L. Would you extend this reference to the threatened invasion of households to books as well as to persons?

A.J.G. Yes, certainly. What have you in mind?

P.L. Well, the menace which present worldly authors furnish in the introduction of what is false to Christ?

A.J.G. Quite so. It may not be openly opposed to Christ, but it always makes much of man and his world, does it not, and therefore it really has the effect of displacing Christ and the things of God.

G.A.L. I thought what you were saying about the freely speaking of the things of God, of the holy Scriptures and the truth amongst members of the family, so that it is enjoyed as a part of our common heritage, is very important. One likes to feel that the children grow up in the truth as though it is part of their inheritance.

A.J.G. Quite so, and yet we need to be watchful that they are spoken of in a holy way, do we not?

G.A.L. Exactly.

H.D.T. When you referred just now to reading the Scriptures, you added the word 'speaking about them.' You had something, I expect, in mind?

A.J.G. Oh! nothing specific; we do not want to be legal or lay down what should be done, but it is a good thing not only to read the Scriptures but to speak about them if possible and when there is opportunity, not merely in a formal, but in an informal way.

H.D.T. Well, I was thinking that it is a custom in some parts that the Scriptures are read pretty well at every meal, but practically nothing is said about them. Often a little less read, and a little comment in the power of the Spirit, would be much more acceptable.

A.J.G. Quite so. Then as things arise, or things come under notice in the world, or it may be what is met with at school, and so on, it is a great thing to see what the Scriptures have to say about them, do you not think?

H.D.T. I do indeed.

W.S.S. So in Deuteronomy 11: 19 it says,

• "Ye shall teach them unto your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou goest on the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up …"

• It is really the life, is it not?

A.J.G. It is.

G.A.L. And the Lord blessed the house of Obed-Edom because of the ark of God. Is that not very important?

A.J.G. Yes. It says in one scripture that the ark remained with the family of Obed-Edom.

J.H. Will you please say something about the greeting in addition to that?

• It is not only "do not receive him into the house", but "greet him not";

  and then the solemnity of the word,

• "for he who greets him partakes in his wicked works".

• It is in contrast to "Greet the friends by name" and "The friends greet thee" to Gaius.

A.J.G. I think that is very important, because we may get into the way of greeting lightly, but anyone bringing false doctrine is not to be greeted. You do not say 'Good-bye' to him. He just has to leave; you do not say 'Good-bye' to him, because 'Good-bye' means really, 'God be with you'.

Eu.R. Nearly all these persons spreading literature, which may refer to Jehovah and that kind of thing, consistently deny the deity of the Son, do they not?

A.J.G. Quite so.

Eu.R. Is not that the great test?

A.J.G. Well, the deity of Christ and the true manhood of Christ, and the necessity for the first man to be set aside; I believe we need to hold all that as the real test of the doctrine.

Eu.R. There was a case in Sweden years ago of a sister who discerned that a man professing to serve the Lord among His people was characterised by bad doctrine, and the result was he was spoken to by the brethren and other meetings were informed and the saints were delivered from him. That would be a good illustration of a sister of this kind, would it not?

A.J.G. It would indeed.

J.A.P. Does this suggest that the whole scope of the truth has come out in the apostles?

A.J.G. Yes, I think there is no doubt about that. It has all come out with the apostles, and what we are enjoying is the recovery of it, because it was almost entirely lost, and now we are enjoying the recovery of it.

J.S.E. Is the emphasis not so much on what has come out, but the way what has come out is maintained?

A.J.G. That is the important matter. Perhaps we might pass on now to the third epistle, because we get the positive feature of hospitality

• "wrought towards the brethren, and that strangers (who have witnessed of thy love before the assembly) …".

W.H.R. Would you say one word upon the 9th verse of the second epistle, as to the danger of going forward in a wrong way in connection with false developments of the truth, and what it is to have the Father and the Son?

A.J.G. Those going forward in a wrong way are those who think that you can add to what came out at the beginning, and so they do not abide in the doctrine of the Christ. But then it says,

• "He that abides in the doctrine, he has both the Father and the Son".

• I take it, that means that you are kept in the enjoyment of the revelation of God in Christ.

E.J.M. Does it link with the word in John 14 as to the Lord's promise to the one who keeps His commandment? The Lord says

• "my Father … will come to him and we will come to him and make our abode with him".

A.J.G. I think we referred to that a day or two ago. That really goes further than keeping His commandments; it involves keeping His word.

• "If any one love me, he will keep my word", the Lord says,

• "and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him".

F.C.H. In the first epistle it speaks of God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit; in the second epistle it refers to the Father and the Son only; and then in the third epistle it refers to God. How does that bear upon the question of the Name?

A.J.G. I would not like to think that the second epistle involves any lack of completeness. It says in the 9th verse,

• "Whosoever goes forward and abides not in the doctrine of the Christ has not God. He that abides in the doctrine, he has both the Father and the Son".

• That is the way in which God is known, as Father revealed in the Son, and, of course, you imply that it includes the Holy Spirit because it is by the Spirit that these things are made good in us.

F.C.H. It leads up to God alone in the last epistle. I wondered if that linked up with what you had in mind, the ultimate being a question of what is of God.

A.J.G. Quite so. But as regards "the Name" in the third epistle we could rightly say that that is the full name in which God is known.

H.B. What is the name? I was thinking of the verse where it says

• – 3 John 8 – "for for the name have they gone forth, taking nothing of those of the nations".

A.J.G. That is just what we are referring to, that it is the truth of God now. The full light of Christianity is involved, I think, in what was in their hearts in going forth.

• It is a remarkable expression, "the name", by itself. As far as I know, we get it only once more in Scripture, and that is in Leviticus 24.

F.C.M. Could we have a word on what is said,

• "Gaius, whom I love in truth".

A.J.G. That is in keeping with what we have been saying as to the importance of "in truth". It is not only in the truth but "in truth", "whom I love in truth", and "as thou walkest in truth".

P.H.H. Would you say some more about the going forth "for the name".

• The name is given to us in full, I suppose, in Matthew 28, and there is a question of baptising to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

• Does this mention of the name mean that it lies behind their going forth, the power of it and the leverage for it?

A.J.G. I think it means that it enters into their testimony. Their service has in view the name, that is, the spread of the knowledge of God as He is now known.

W.C. Is the idea of "going forth" a levitical thought?' According to the end of Mark it says that they went forth.

A.J.G. Yes. That is how I understand it.

W.C. Would it link on with the care of the Levites?

A.J.G. Yes, clearly. Here these have gone forth, like those that we read of in Acts 8, who went forth on their own initiative. These went forth, dependent on God, taking nothing of the nations.

G.R.C. In Acts 5 it says the apostles rejoiced that they were counted worthy to be dishonoured for the name.

A.J.G. I suppose that would be probably for the name of Christ.

G.R.C. I wondered there whether it was the name of Jesus, showing that He has a peculiar place in the testimonial sphere, that His name is called the name. He is God, is He not?

A.J.G. Yes. I am glad you have drawn attention to that, because I had overlooked that expression in Acts 5: 41,

• "that they were counted worthy to be dishonoured for the name".

W.C.P. Would you mind saying, please, what is meant by "the excellent name" in James 2: 7,

• "Do not they blaspheme the excellent name which has been called upon you?"

A.J.G. "Name … called upon you". I suppose, refers to the name that was called upon them at their baptism. What would you say to that?

W.C.P. I was wondering just that myself.

W.C. It does say in Acts 5: 40,

• "enjoined them not to speak in the name of Jesus",

  and then it says in the next verse,

• "rejoicing that they were counted worthy to be dishonoured for the name".

A.J.G. Yes. That is why I think it evidently is the name of Jesus there.

A.H.G. Would this going forth here for the name be in all the wealth of what had been acquired in the house setting and also in the assembly that is referred to here, so that it is the full wealth of the name that they go forward in?

A.J.G. It would be supported, of course, by houses such as those of the elect lady that we have been speaking of, but the name, I take it, is the testimony, it is what is here.

• It is the testimony as to the way God has come out, and that was what they went out for, they went out to carry it and to spread it.

W.C. Does this indicate to us that there would be those thus going forth to the end to minister the full truth, but at the same time there would be opposition. John goes on to speak of Diotrephes not receiving them.

A.J.G. Exactly.

W.C. We ought to receive them, but is that a test as to the ministry in its full bearing, and how it is received – whether it is in localities or houses?

A.J.G. Quite so. If God has given any of us houses, they are houses that are to be held in relation to His testimony, and are to be available on the line of impartiality, receiving those who are bound up with the truth.

E.J.H. And they are said to be

• "fellow-workers with the truth".

• Is that not a very great encouragement to the brethren generally, that if they have a living part in the testimony in any way they are not only helpers but they are workers with the truth?

A.J.G. Yes, I think it is. "Fellow-workers with the truth".

P.L. Mark makes so much of sympathetic households in connection with the testimony, and it is the great levitical gospel, is it not? Has that a great place in our closing day, Mark appearing at the end of 2 Timothy?

A.J.G. Quite so. I suppose Mark had been brought up to it by his mother, for his mother's house is referred to in Jerusalem. Peter went to it when he was released.

T.J.G. Would you say something about the two references to the assembly in this epistle, the one being the commendation of good qualities and the other the casting out of good qualities?

W.C. There are three, are there not? Verses 6, 9 and 10. Is it not remarkable, that these are the only times, I believe, that John mentions the word 'assembly' in his gospel and epistles?

• Would it link on with the last chapter of Revelation, the end there would be the assembly functioning universally? It is remarkable that he should mention it in this last epistle. There is the idea of the going in by the gates, into the city, in a present setting.

A.J.G. Quite so. We get his mentioning the angel of the assembly in the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Revelation, but it is striking that while he stresses the family side of things in his first epistle and these epistles, yet be brings in the assembly here.

• They "witnessed of thy love before the assembly".

P.H.H. Would that show that the condition of things you have been speaking about would affect the assembly, either for good, normally, or possibly for evil?

A.J.G. Yes, and it shows that he is in no sense ignoring the assembly. He is dealing rather with what it is constitutionally in those who compose it, but now in this third epistle he formally recognises the assembly.

A.P.C.L. Would that reference in verse 6 perhaps apply to things that might be very simply said, before a prayer meeting and the like?

A.J.G. Well, quite so. We do not want to be formal about these things. They "witnessed of thy love before the assembly". You could not have a greater company than that to be commended to, could you?

A.P.C.L. Quite so.

A.H. Would you add a word as to that remarkable expression

• "worthily of God"?

• Do you take it that he was providing them with the means for sustenance?

A.J.G. Yes, I would think so. It looks as though they went forth dependent on God, and God honoured their faith through the saints. It is a great thing to be available to God for that. It is like the widow in 1 Timothy 5.

• We get very few marked by those features now, because there is so much in the way of State provision and so on,
  • but in 1 Timothy 5 you have a widow who is desolate and has her whole confidence in God, and she is answered by the assembly; the assembly takes her on, and accepts responsibility for her.

• So that it shows how important the assembly is, as representing God in care.

G.A.L. And would the "strangers" be brethren who may not have been known personally previously?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so, as though the truth was just the bond between Gaius and those who came to him.

C.J.H.D. Would Genesis 18 give us an example of the setting forward worthily of God? Abraham says to his visitors, "refresh yourselves; after that ye shall pass on".

A.J.G. That is good. Abraham there says,

• "Let now a little water be fetched … And I will fetch a morsel of bread; and refresh yourselves";

• but actually he took "thick and sweet milk, and the calf that he had dressed …".

• So that it was more than water and a morsel, was it not? He was treating them worthily of God.

C.J.H.D. And I thought it was in view of the passing on, and the great matters that were before God, we may say reverently – Sodom, but what lies beyond judgment, the glory.

A.J.G. Yes.

W.S.S. Do not these verses 6, 7 and 8 place a responsibility upon us in regard to our attitude towards the ministry and those who minister?

A.J.G. Yes, they do indeed.

W.S.S. We may look upon it as something belonging to a previous period, but is it not for the present time?

A.J.G. Yes, it certainly is.

Eu.R. Being with the truth calls for constant movement and adjustment?

A.J.G. Yes, and fellow-workers with it. It almost seems as though the truth is presented as working, but we are to be fellow-workers with it.

W.S.S. It is not optional, is it?

A.J.G. No. It says, "We therefore ought to receive such, that we may be fellow-workers with the truth".

E.J.B. A little while ago you spoke of what the Spirit was particularly emphasising in the truth, at any given time. Is that linked up with "the name" at the present time, the understanding of it?

A.J.G. I think so. I think the Spirit of God is specially emphasising our getting into the fulness that is involved in the name, and reaching, in our own consciousness, God in His own blessedness.

E.J.B. And it is a great thing to be fellow-workers with that?

A.J.G. Quite so.

C.W.C. In that connection I was wondering – if it would not be going back – if you would mind saying a word as to the expression in John 17,

• "the only true God".

• There has been an effort to make out that if the Father is the only true God, no one else can be.

A.J.G. That will not do. That is met by the verse we had in the epistle this morning,

• "He" that is, God's Son, Jesus Christ – "He is the true God and eternal life".

• So that it will not do to take up one scripture to the exclusion of another.

C.W.C. I was thinking of the expression as to the Spirit, guiding into all the truth.

A.J.G. Quite so, "all the truth".

A.B.P. Might there be a link here in the coordination of the truth and the ministry? Would Paul and his company be included in these? He speaks in Romans 16 of "Gaius, my host".

A.J.G. Very possibly. It is clear that Gaius had entertained Paul.

Ques. According to John 19 the Lord Jesus commended his mother to the care of John, at Golgotha, and John took her to his own home. Then we see the mother of Jesus in the upper room in the beginning of Acts.

• I am just wondering whether she was serviceable in the upper room, in the beginning of Acts, and whether that means that the truth would be found in John's home?

A.J.G. Exactly, and I have no doubt she would be a great help to John. John would be a great help to her, in caring for her, but she would be an immense help to John, because she had wealth from her personal knowledge of Jesus from the very beginning that John could not possibly have.

L.F. You were speaking as to the matter of being fellow-workers with the truth, is there not instruction for us in seeing that immediately the matter of good and evil is raised, and that is to be taken account of in the only place where it can be dealt with in accordance with the truth, in the assembly itself.

A.J.G. Quite so. You mean that in connection with this matter of working with the truth, immediately this opposition comes in with Diotrephes? Is that what you have in mind?

L.F. Yes, I was thinking that these matters really resolve themselves into one of two, good or evil, and that is worked out in the assembly. It seems to come in wonderfully here in regard to what we have had so much before us as to the maintenance of "the truth".

A.J.G. Quite so. It is striking that while John never calls himself an apostle this becomes an occasion for him to speak with authority as an apostle.

• He says, "For this reason, if I come, I will bring to remembrance his works which he does, babbling against us with wicked words".

• It is very similar to Paul in the last chapter of 2 Corinthians. Paul speaks of his coming, and how he would deal with any evil that was unjudged.

• While therefore, whether in administrative matters or whether in the truth according to John's line, the Lord may wait long and bear long with opposition, sooner or later He will come into the matter and deal with it if it is not judged.

P.H.H. And its being left like this, does it mean that it is giving us an opportunity to arrive at a right judgment about it?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so. It is striking that apparently, in the very locality where Diotrephes was, there was Demetrius, setting forth, in his presence, the maintenance of the truth.

E.C.L. Would you say that Demetrius had been formed by the truth? You were speaking at the beginning of the meeting of what was substantially in the saints.

A.J.G. Yes, I think so. Demetrius is a most interesting man, because the apostle says of him that

• he "has witness borne to him by all, and by the truth itself"

• – the truth bears witness to Demetrius. In the ordinary way we might say that, Demetrius would be bearing witness to the truth, but here the truth is bearing witness to Demetrius.

• It is as though if you took account of the truth abstractly, and then looked at Demetrius, there would be no disparity between the two.

T.J.G. Is it of interest that after having stated about Diotrephes, the apostle says,

• "Beloved, do not imitate what is evil",

• as though the dominant personality of Diotrephes is dangerously infectious?

A.J.G. Yes, that is so. So we are to go on with good, and we know good in God, and he that does good is of God.

W.C. Demetrius seems to be like a pillar, does he not? It does not say that he does anything, but it is what he is.

A.J.G. Quite so.

Ques. Does that bring out the importance of the local position especially in regard to those who serve, and who may not be borne witness to by the truth.

• The position is held by the local assembly, and if persons go forth who are not fully committed to the truth, there is likely to be damage done.

• Then, on the other side, if they are fully committed to the truth there will be something for God in it.

Rem. I think what our brother has in mind is that in our local positions we should be watchful whom we invite, because some are not fully committed to the truth, and if they are invited around they may do damage.

A.J.G. That is important.

A.P.B. May I ask whether there is the other side, that the meeting from whom a servant goes forth to serve has a certain responsibility as to putting their hands on him?

A.J.G. Yes, I think that is right. Although every servant stands in relation to the Lord in his service, yet he has his place in his own local assembly.

• So that the gifts are set in the assembly, it says in Corinthians; as though the assembly is there as having a certain oversight. It is not that the assembly directs them in their service, but at the same time they are accountable to it.

A.W.G.T. How can that work practically?

A.J.G. If a servant was putting out what was contrary to the truth, and was not adjusted by the brethren personally approaching him, it would be his local company who would have to take it up.

G.R.C. So that the assembly is

• "the pillar and base of the truth",

• and is responsible for what is put out, in that sense.

G.C.S. Does that show the value of our care meetings? It is not one or two brothers, it is all the brethren?

A.J.G. Quite so.

G.C.S. Very often an objection comes from a brother perhaps that is not thought much of.

A.J.G. That is what is so important, that we recognise that when all the saints are together there is abundant scope for the sovereignty of the Spirit. So He gives to one the word of wisdom, and to another the word of knowledge, and to a different one something else.

• We cannot therefore dictate to the Spirit that He must use one or other particular brothers, but it is in His hand as to where the word of knowledge or the word of wisdom comes from.

H.D.T. So that the Spirit dwells in the body, not merely in the gifts.

A.J.G. Exactly, and you find that the body of the saints, taken as a whole, are for the truth, and with it.

M.P.S. In Acts 14: 26 it says of Paul and Silas that

• "they sailed away to Antioch, whence they had been committed to the grace of God for the work which they had fulfilled".

• Does that bear upon what has just been said?

A.J.G. I think so. They came back to the assembly from which they had been committed, and they had fulfilled the work which was entrusted to them.

A.P.T. The fact that the word 'assembly' is mentioned three times here must have some spiritual significance. Is not the local position a very important matter?

A.J.G. It is, and Diotrephes was even assuming to cast some out of the assembly. Yet in the presence of those conditions apparently, Gaius and Demetrius were standing, and you may rest assured that the Spirit of God will support those who stand by what is of God.

A.P.T. I was wondering if there was anything important in the statement

• "I wrote something to the assembly".

• It is not unfolded, but the truth is there. There would be the importance of John in this connection with the assembly, the authoritative side in it. The local brethren would appreciate what he had to say.

A.J.G. I have no doubt they would, and if Diotrephes refused to receive John, there would be those in the assembly that would stand up against it sooner or later.

J.H-s. Is it significant in that regard that the word finally to the overcomer is,

• "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies".

A.J.G. That is to say, you lend an ear to what the Spirit is saying, and not to that which is contrary to it. He is saying it to the assemblies; that is, all the assemblies.

A.P.C.L. In the initial sending forth of the servants in Acts 13, the assembly there having been constituted, there is the Spirit's distinctive selection and calling, and then the sending, but then do not the brethren come into it,

• "Then, having fasted and prayed, and having laid their hands on them, they let them go".

• In one sense they are sent forth by the Holy Spirit, but is there not something very definite in the responsibility of the local company?

A.J.G. I think there is.

W.C. Does not this reference to "if I come" remind us of the principle of a time limit in relation to matters of evil?

A.J.G. I think so.

W.C. That we are not to go on with things indefinitely?

A.J.G. No. We have that same principle in Corinthians in relation to epistles that deal with administrative matters, and in this epistle of John in relation to family matters.

M.P.S. Does it help to remind ourselves at the close that the apostle wrote all these things that our joy might be full?

A.J.G. That is important, I am sure, that he has in mind that our joy should be full, and that is just as we are in the full light in which God is known and fully responding to it.

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KEY  TO  INITIALS
THE SUBSTANTIALITY OF CHRISTIANITY London, July 27-29, 1954 A. J. Gardiner Names are from various sources and believed to be accurate. ? = uncertainty; initial ? = as to name; final ? = as to locality. There are a number of initials for which names are not known.
Ralph G. Ball, Bromley A. A. Bellamy, ? ? Alec Bennett London Dr. A. Paul Bodman, Bristol George W. Brown, London Hubert Calvey, Southport W. Chesterfield, London Chas. W. Cooper, Belfast Gerald R. Cowell, Hornchurch ? A. John Darton, Liverpool C. J. H. Davidson, London ? Wm. Dickson, Edinburgh J. S. Ephgrave, Waltham Cross ? L. Fleck, Enfield ? James A. Flett, Crieff ? W. [F.] Flowerdew, London Alfred J. Gardiner, London Thos. J. Gratten, London A. H. Griffiths, Southport Percy H. Hardwick, London Charles Hammond, London ? Josiah Harper, Colwyn Bay ? S. Jack Hayward, Montreal John P. Hazell, London Alfred Helen, Teddington Edward J. Hemmings, Acton Wm. Henderson, Glasgow Sidney Houston, Gillingham H. A. Hutson, London A. P. Cecil Lawrence, Stornoway Percy Lyon, London George A. Lucas, Hornsey	C. W. O'L. Markham, London ? John Mason, Belfast ? J. G. May, Gillingham Alistair McGregor, Hertford James McKay, Leeds ? J. McMullon, High Wycombe ? Walter W. Mooney, ? Cape May, NJ Dr. Arthur Morford, London ? E. J. Morse, Gloucester E. C. Muggleton, Croydon J. A. Parsons, Haringey A. Bufton Parker, New York Wm. C. Powell, London Alan C. S. Price, Barnet H. F. Redfearn, Croydon A. W. Roach, Crouch End Eu. Roberts, ? ? F. G. Seaman, Havering/Ilford Jack T. Seville, Manchester R. H. Shedden, Birmingham M. P. Simmons, ? W. W. Smart, Glasgow W. S. Spence, Bournemouth Horace C. Stanley, Teddington Arthur P. Taylor, Los Angeles Harry D. Thomas, London A. L. R. Tilly, Haringey Arthur W. G. Turner, Calne W. J. Turner, King's Lynn or W. J. Turner, Chippenham ? B. Ward, London ? H. Webb, Ilford

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