J.McK. Referring to your remark about the two generations, is it a principle in the ways of God that the truth is worked out in generations?

• I was thinking of the way the book of Genesis is interspersed with generations, whether it be the great thoughts of God or whether it be the world system. We see it worked out, and the practical characteristics coming to light in the generations.

A.J.G. Yes, I think that is so, and therefore we can trace things to their origin. Here things are taken back to their origin. Either people are of God or they are of the devil, and the devil, it says, sins from the beginning.

J.A.P. Are we children by divine generation, as the last verse of the previous chapter suggests?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so. I think it helps to see that God in His moral character and nature has come into testimony, and it has had the effect of begetting those morally like Him.

G.R.C. Would you mind helping as to why we are spoken of as children of God, and in Paul's ministry sons of God, and not children of the Father or sons of the Father?

• In the verse just referred to, the pronoun is left open; it just says we are "begotten of him".

A.J.G. That is characteristic of John's epistle, that we are "begotten of him", and then it says,

• "the world knows us not, because it knew him not".

• The world morally did not know God, but God was presented in testimony to the world in Christ, so that it was Christ that the world did not know, and yet it was God that it did not know.

• That is characteristic of John, that he presents the truth in that way.

E.C.M. Is the right to be called the children of God based on our receiving Christ and believing on His name, as in John 1?

A.J.G. Yes, that is right, and so it says,

• "but as many as received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God, to those that believe on his name; who have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh's will, nor of man's will, but of God".

• So that you have got the believing on His name – that is our side of the matter, the responsibility to receive the testimony that is presented – but then we get the secret underlying it, that all those who do receive it have been born of God.

P.L. Would the reference to God here – there are 29 references to God in the next chapter and about 40 in these three chapters – have the testimony in view?

A.J.G. I think so – testimony to God. That is the great subject of testimony in the world, what God is. That is what has been called in question by the challenge raised by the enemy and the introduction of sin, and that has got to be met.

A.P.C.L. Is the way in which he presents it as the "love the Father has given to us" to strengthen us inwardly in relation to the Father and His love?

• It is not 'See how great the position of children is,' but
  • "See what love the Father has given to us".

A.J.G. Yes, exactly. So that it is a very appealing thought in that way, as though we are called upon to stop and consider it in order to be impressed with the love the Father has given to us.

A.P.C.L. I wondered if that would be the spring of filling out the place as children.

A.J.G. I am sure it would.

A.B. Does it have in mind that as children of God we are to be nourished and nurtured in the Father's love, and thus grow in power so that the testimony to Him may be stronger?

A.J.G. Yes, quite so. As children we are the objects of His care, but then we are here in testimony to what God is. We bear testimony to it by reason of what we are.

A.P.C.L. Matthew speaks of "sons of your Father who is in the heavens". Is that a matter, too, of representation of the Father?

A.J.G. Yes, it is.

A.P.C.L. How would you distinguish between that and the children of God?

A.J.G. Well, sons, I suppose, convey the thought of dignity and, so to speak, representation,

• but children is that we are representatives, not exactly in any formal way, but because of what we are, because we are of His family.

G.R.C. As regards the thought of generation, the Lord says in John's gospel,

• "every one that is born of the Spirit",

• and then we have the expression in Scripture as to Christ,
  • "he shall see a seed", Isaiah 53: 10.

• Could you give further help as to the way God as such enters into the question of generation?

A.J.G. He enters into it, I think, in testimony. I think the histories of Adam and Eve, and then Cain and Abel, greatly help in this, that when God clothed Adam and Eve with coats of skin there was the testimony in that to righteousness and love.

• The question of sin had to be met righteously, and it is met in the death of Christ to which the coats of skin bore witness.

• But then it is not only that righteousness comes into expression, but love comes into expression. Those are the two great things that this chapter is occupied with, righteousness and love. That was the testimony presented to men, and that was the testimony for which Cain and Abel were responsible.

• Now Cain rejected the testimony to righteousness and took his own way, and therefore knew nothing of love. If we accept the testimony of righteousness, we become instructed in love, because righteousness has found its expression in the great gift of God's love, of His Son, to die for us.

• The two things are thus bound up together, and receiving the testimony of righteousness and love we become begotten by it and take on similar features.

A.B.P. Is there an intimation of what is in the writer's mind in the previous chapter, when he says,

• "I write to you, children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake"?

• I wondered if the "for his name's sake" has in mind the testimony.

A.J.G. I am sure it has, and reminds us in that way of the way in which our sins have been forgiven. We are not to rest, so to speak, in the fact that our sins have been forgiven, but we are directed in our thoughts to Christ and all that He has done. Is that what is in your mind?

A.B.P. Yes, and it is not a matter of relief, but "for his name's sake" involves the testimony.

A.J.G. Well, quite so. It is like the man who was brought to the Lord as marked by paralysis, and the Lord first forgave his sins and then gave him power to walk as a testimony.

A.B.P. Yes, quite.

A.H.G. Would this expression, "call", have testimony in view?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so.

W.C. Who is it that calls them the children of God? It does not say that of the children of the devil, does it, that they are called that?

• Would it mean that the divine features are there, so that it is obvious that God has a family here, and a generation, that express Him?

A.J.G. I should think it means that, that they become recognised as children of God. It says at Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians there; they got a name that identified them with Christ. Wm.H. Would it link on with John 1, where Peter is called Cephas, as bearing the features of a stone?

A.J.G. That would be what the Lord called him, would it not? Wm.H. Yes.

A.J.G. It is like Adam naming the features of the work of God in the creatures as they are brought to him, so that, as Peter came to the Lord, the Lord said, "thou shalt be called Cephas", giving him his name.

W.C. At Antioch it was those around, I suppose, who called them Christians?

A.J.G. Yes.

W.C. But here it says, "the world knows us not".

H.D.T. Whilst features that are pleasing to God are in view, are we not impressed with the fact of the privilege of belonging to the family of God in this passage? Is not that rather the emphasis?

A.J.G. It is a great privilege, certainly, and we are to rejoice in it, the love the Father has given to us that we should be called that. It is a very great privilege to be here in testimony to God.

E.J.H. And does it mean that all the children are like one another, because they are all like the same Father?

A.J.G. That is the idea, as I understand it. Had you something more in mind just now, Mr. C.?

W.C. No. I was just wondering why it is that the love is connected with the Father, and the calling with God, children of God. Can you help us on that? It says,

• "See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God";

• it is not children of the Father, as was said.

A.J.G. The Father stands in relation to the family. The children take character from the father; that is, the father of the family. But then, of course, the Father is God, and it is a question of God coming into testimony in His children.

W.C. And is the Father's love, so to speak, the support we have behind it? That is maintained practically in the sphere of testimony?

A.J.G. Quite so.

H.F.R. Are the two sides brought in in Romans 8,

• "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God. And if children, heirs also" –

• and then, "if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him"?

A.J.G. Well, that is what we have here,

• "what we shall be has not yet been manifested".

• That does not mean that we do not know what we shall be; it means it has not been manifested publicly yet
  • but "we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him".

A.B.P. And does not the calling emphasise the substantiality that you spoke of yesterday? The creatures which Adam named had certain features and distinctiveness that he could put a name upon.

A.J.G. Quite so; each one bearing some impress of divine glory, doubtless. But now the children are intended to represent God fully, not simply certain features, but what He is in His nature and moral character. F.G.S. Had Paul this in mind in Ephesians 5, when he says,

• "Be ye therefore imitators of God, as beloved children, and walk in love, even as the Christ loved us".

A.J.G. Quite so. So that we can see what an important matter this question of children of God is, and our position here as children, because the name of God is bound up with His children.

Eu.R. The note tells us that the word for 'children' does not imply what is diminutive; they are full-grown persons.

A.J.G. It is just that they are persons of the family. It is not a diminutive expression, but those who belong to a certain family and therefore take on the characteristics of the One who has begotten them.

A.P.C.L. And is the use of the word 'now' in verse 2 to stimulate our hearts that the present time is the time when we are privileged to fill out this position of children?

A.J.G. Yes, I am sure that is important. I think perhaps it is not sufficiently realised that when sin came into the world by means of Satan, the devil succeeding with man, what was in contest was the nature of God.

• He instilled a lie as to God in the mind of the woman, and that really became the point of contest from then onwards. It was question as to whether God was true or not, and that is what is taken up in the children of God; they are here to vindicate God in His nature and moral character.

M.P.S. Is that seen in Deuteronomy 32: 5, where it says,

• "They have dealt corruptly with him; Not his children's is their spot".

A.J.G. That is, their distinctive features were not those of God. Their spot, I suppose, would indicate some distinctive feature that marked them, but it was not of God, as it should have been.

• It says, "They have dealt corruptly with him – Not his children's is their spot" [or 'blemish'] – "A crooked and perverted generation!"

• So that they were misrepresenting the God whom they belonged to and should have represented.

H.D.T. Is that contrasted in Philippians 2: 15, where we have

• "harmless and simple, irreproachable children of God in the midst of a crooked and perverted generation; among whom ye appear as lights in the world"?

A.J.G. Quite so.

W.S.S. Would it help to refer to Romans 8: 21,

• "the creature itself also shall be set free from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God".

A.J.G. That is very interesting; "the liberty of the glory of the children of God". We are children of God now, but we are to come out in glory as His sons.

W.S.S. The creature itself is to be set free.

A.J.G. Quite so.

A.W.R. We have the expression in Genesis 1,

• "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness".

• Does this thought in John involve this matter of likeness?

A.J.G. It does, I think it involves both. 'Image' is representation, and 'likeness' means that the representation is a true representation; that is, that it is like God.

• You might have a representative who was not exactly like the person he represented, but the divine thought is that the representation should be a true representation, and therefore it is image and likeness.

Ques. Would that be seen in the end of the book of Malachi, in the day of breakdown, that they were the children of God?

A.J.G. What are you referring to, please?

Ques. "Then they that feared Jehovah spoke often one to another", Malachi 3: 16.

A.J.G. Well, that is their public character, that they feared Jehovah. That is taken account of, and

• "a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared Jehovah, and that thought upon his name".

P.L. The thought of 'children' is unique to this dispensation. It does not go into eternity, does it?

A.J.G. No, I think not, although I suppose what we are as children, as born of God, underlies every other position we come into.

P.L. Surely.

J.A.P. Is that why the Lord is not referred to as a child?

A.J.G. You mean, as a child of God?

J.A.P. Yes.

A.J.G. No. He is not referred to as a child of God. He was, of course, seen here as a little child, cared for by His mother, and so on.

L.F. Is this reference to children, that we are looking at in these opening verses, an appeal to the affections, so that John later on in this chapter could use the word again as appealing to them to maintain all that belongs to the children of God?

A.J.G. Yes, and especially these features of righteousness and love, which are the two great features that this chapter stresses; righteousness first and then love.

• I do think it helps to see that as soon as sin came into the world God came into testimony in that two-fold character of righteousness and love, in the coats of skin, and that was the testimony that Cain and Abel were tested by.

G.C.G. Do these features stand over against those of lawlessness and hatred that the enemy brought in at the outset, and consequently the ruin of man?

• I was thinking of the importance of our encouraging ourselves with these features of righteousness and love in view of the fact that they stand over against the terrible features of lawlessness and hatred which the enemy brought in.

A.J.G. I am sure that is important, and that is why I suggested reading those few verses in Genesis 4. Those verses stress that Abel was a brother, as though as soon as God had given the testimony in the coats of skin, then the first son of Adam and Eve – Cain – is born, and then immediately it says,

• "And she further bore his brother Abel".

• God gave him a brother. That is to say, the testimony was to work out in results in the circle of the brethren.

• If Cain had received the testimony to righteousness, he would also have been impressed with the testimony to love, and that would have expressed itself towards his brother.

• But he rejected the testimony of righteousness and the result is that he got no impression of love, and when his brother maintained the truth, instead of love coming into evidence in Cain, hatred came into evidence.

J.McD. Are the coats of skin seen in the epistle to the Romans in connection with the righteousness and love of God?

A.J.G. They are seen, I think, in the righteousness of God especially. But we know that underneath the establishment of righteousness lay love, because it was established by the death of God's own Son.

R.G.B. Are not both righteousness and love abiding features?

A.J.G. They are.

R.G.B. I was thinking of the scripture,

• "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness";

• then we know that love is an abiding feature, because God is love.

A.J.G. Quite so. I am sure that is important. It says in Isaiah 53 – that great chapter that speaks of the sufferings of Christ –

• "by his knowledge shall my righteous servant instruct many in righteousness; and he shall bear their iniquities".

• It is a striking word, that He instructs the many in righteousness, but He Himself bears their iniquities. The instruction in righteousness thus carried with it instruction in love; there was the testimony to love.

G.C.S. Is righteousness connected with the throne? It says,

• "Thy throne, O God, is to the age of the age, and a sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom",

• and the throne is carried through to Revelation 21.

A.J.G. Yes; that is right, and love is connected with the nature of God.

E.J.H. Where do you bring in purity, as in verse 3, to link on with righteousness and love? Would you help us on that too?

A.J.G. Well, "every one that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure".

• I think that is brought in just as a stimulus to us at the present time, in view of our testimony being strengthened and not weakened.

• We understand that we shall see Jesus "as he is", not as He was, but "as he is", and having this hope in Him we purify ourselves.

A.P.C.L. Is it important to see that that "in him" is in the One that is to be manifested, which is in the glorious One?

A.J.G. Exactly.

W.C. Purification would be seen in Enoch, would it not?

A.J.G. It would. I was thinking that Enoch illustrates one who is in the enjoyment of eternal life.

A.N.G. Would it also be seen in the gospels? In Matthew righteousness is stressed in detail, and in John love is stressed, where one brother finds another for the working out of these things.

A.J.G. Yes, quite so.

A.H. Does Peter help us at all as to this practical matter of purifying himself? He speaks in chapter 1 of his first epistle of "obedience to the truth", doing that for our souls, and then goes on to speak about loving.

A.J.G. Well, it says, "we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see as he is".

• We must be like Him in order to see Him as He is. Then it says,
  • "every one that has this hope in him", that is, in Christ, "purifies himself, even as he is pure".

• The point is, have we got it as a hope or not; are we carrying, as a hope in our hearts, the thought "we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is"?

J.McK. It becomes a great leverage in the soul.

A.J.G. That is the point.

G.A.L. And if we are going to be like Him in the glory, we want to be like Him now.

A.J.G. That is it. But then, do we want to see Him as He is? In order to see Him as He is, we must be like Him.

J.D. Would the gospel of Matthew have a bearing on this? It begins "Book of the generation of Jesus Christ",

• then we have the Lord's words at His baptism,
  • "thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness",

• and then in chapter 5 He speaks of those who
  • "hunger and thirst after righteousness", and says,

  • "Blessed the pure in heart, for they shall see God".

A.J.G. Well, that is so. It is just presented from a different standpoint perhaps. Here what is prominent is God. God in testimony in His children. I think it helps to keep that in mind.

W.S.S. With regard to verse 3, it does not say, He that has this hope in Him ought to purify himself.

A.J.G. No. It raises the question, therefore, not whether we are purifying ourselves, but whether we have got the hope, whether we have got it in Him, in our hearts.

W.S.S. It would be a necessary, we might say inevitable, result.

A.J.G. Yes.

A.P.C.L. Does the use of the word 'know' in verse 2, which is for 'inward knowledge,' mean that it is an inward matter? It is not what we know academically, but what we know inwardly?

A.J.G. Quite so. It goes on to speak about the one who practises sin, that it is practising lawlessness. He says,

• "And ye know" [again the same word – 'knowing inwardly'] "that he has been manifested that he might take away our sins"; that is, in a practical sense – "and in him sin is not".

A.H.G. Could you say how we purify ourselves?

A.J.G. By the disallowance, in the Spirit's power, of what is contrary to Christ.

W.W.M. Would you say a word in regard of hope. In Romans 8 it says we are "saved in hope".

A.J.G. Hope is something that you look forward to, something you have as an expectation in your heart. I think this challenges us as to whether this is so with us, that we have really as a hope in us the hope of being like Christ is order to see Him as He is.

J.E.P-W. It says in Proverbs 10: 28,

• "The hope of the righteous is joy".

A.J.G. Well, to have this hope, in Christ, of being like Him in order to see Him as He is, would certainly produce joy in the heart. I think we might leave it at that, as to whether it really is a hope in our hearts.

T.J.G. I would like to ask as to purifying himself, and the remark that it is almost an inevitable result. Subsequently, in answer to an enquiry, you said it is a disallowance of what is opposite to the Spirit. Can we have that cleared? Is it an inevitable result, or is there something we have to do?

A.J.G. We have to do it, of course. But then if we have really got Christ in our hearts, and the desire to see Him as He is, and the knowledge that we must be like Him in order to see Him as He is, there will be this working in us by the Spirit.

• It does not come to pass automatically, like autumn leaves falling from a tree, but certain energy is needed on our part; but then the energy is produced by the effect in us of the hope.

A.P.C.L. In that sense it becomes characteristic of that kind of person.

A.J.G. Quite so.

H.D.T. Does it not involve our going on with the Lord in His present position?

A.J.G. It does indeed.

A.B.P. In Romans 5 the thought of hope is immediately followed by the present activity of the Spirit shedding the love of God abroad in our hearts.

• In Romans 8 the subject of hope is immediately followed by the necessity for the Spirit's intercession for us, and, following upon that, the searching of our hearts,
  • "he who searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit".

• Does that indicate how substantial this thing becomes in our souls?

A.J.G. I am sure it does, and that helps greatly.

R.J.W. Would Romans 15 follow on what has just been said?

• "Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that ye should abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit".

A.J.G. Yes, quite so. God is the God of hope.

C.H. Does this verse not so much deal with the how, as the fact?

A.J.G. That is it.

W.C. Would what you referred to last night link on with it? The city of pure gold, as pure glass, gives the full result there in what is substantial?

A.J.G. Quite so. I think it is very interesting that it says, "even as he is pure". That is, in the Lord we have in a Man what is absolutely according to God, for He is God;

• and therefore the result of having this hope in our souls, the hope in Christ, is that we take on similar features. It results in the formation of the city – pure gold.

L.F. That is, there is moral correspondence to Christ. The children are marked by that.

A.J.G. Yes. Moral correspondence to Christ, because Christ is the exact expression of God.

A.W.G.T. Has not Mr. Darby connected purity with light? I was thinking that light is very intimately linked with this thought of purity.

A.J.G. Quite so. Light makes everything manifest that is impure, and therefore it would be excluded by the light.

P.L. In regard to the city, referred to as "the bride, the Lamb's wife", is this correspondence to Christ here underlying the whole testimonial position now and in the coming age in relation to the setting forth of God? Is it characteristically God's city?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so. I think it is most stimulating and important to see that God has entered into the contest Himself. He has really come out in the display of Himself in righteousness and love, and that is to beget those who are formed in these features. Eventually the full result of it will be seen in the city.

Ques. Does wisdom's voice enter into all this? It says in Proverbs 8: 20,

• "I walk in the path of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment that I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasuries".

A.J.G. Hence our position in an evil scene is all intended to work out in the furtherance of what God is doing in us.

• The practical day-today exercises in business life and so on, requiring the diligent pursuit of what is right in the sight of God, in the fear of God, all tend towards the further development in us of righteousness as a practical matter.

W.S.S. Is not what we have been saying largely the question of where we are dwelling in our affections? The unction teaches to abide in Him, and John says,

• "now, children, abide in him",

  and again in verse 6 of this chapter,

• "Whoever abides in him …"

• In John 1 they wanted to know where the Lord abode, and it says, "they abode with him that day". Does not that enter into all this?

A.J.G. It does. So we know that Cain, after rejecting the testimony that God rendered to him, and murdering his brother, started the world, but then in Genesis 5, God starts over afresh.

• He starts afresh with Adam, and then Seth, who takes the place of Abel, and so on. They are moving apart from the world morally; they are moving on the life line; and that culminates, in the seventh from Adam, in Enoch, who walked with God.

• He really was in the enjoyment of eternal life, entering into the life of God, you might say, as walking with Him.

E.J.H. Could you connect it with what was said yesterday, about abiding in God?

A.J.G. Yes, I think you could. I think you could say that of Enoch, undoubtedly.

A.L.R.T. Would he be one who was on the line of purifying himself? I was thinking of the way he is referred to in Hebrews 11, where it says that

• "faith is the substantiating of things hoped for".

A.J.G. Well, yes. Quite so. In Genesis he is presented, not so much as in the line of faith, I think, as in the line of life. The fifth chapter of Genesis is the great line of life.

A.B.P. And in his walk does he establish a way which contrasts with the way of Cain?

A.J.G. Exactly, and that is set out in that generation in chapter 5.

W.J. Would you say a word as to the family secrets as regards the Lord? It speaks of Him, even as He walked, as He is pure, as He is righteous. Are they family secrets, and all seen in the Lord?

A.J.G. I think that shows that the children of God, as governed by the truth as we have it here, keep Christ before them.

• The One who is from the beginning is constantly kept before our hearts, because He is the One in whom what God is, in His nature and moral character, is learned.

• There is a certain begetting effect in us. The seed operates, so to speak, and begets what is according to it, as we take account of what God is as He shines out in Christ.

C.H. We prove ourselves to be a wholly right seed, in that sense.

A.J.G. That is it.

F.C.H. In verse 8 we have the reference to the Son of God undoing the works of the devil. Is that not very happily seen in the scripture that has been quoted from John 1, in contrast to the two brothers in the Old Testament?

• Is there not the manifestation of righteousness in chapter 1 of John's gospel, the walking by the Lamb of God; then following that we have two brothers, and then the concern of one was to find his own brother and to bring him to Jesus.

A.J.G. Yes, quite so.

A.W.P. I want to ask you if what we get in Hebrews 1, where it refers to God bringing His firstborn into the habitable world, and the statement that He loved righteousness and hated lawlessness, bears on what you have before you in regard of the generations and the habitable world, this world in which we find ourselves, and the working out of it. When it has accomplished its purpose it will be set aside. Does that bear on what you have in mind in regard of the generations?

A.J.G. I would not connect the thought of generation with the firstborn. I would connect the thought of the firstborn there with what we have in Psalm 89,

• "And as to me, I will make him firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth".

• That is, it is the thought of personal dignity and pre-eminence, I think.

R.H.S. Would the generations in Luke 3 have a bearing on what is before us? Everything is traced back to God, and Seth and Enoch come in on that line.

A.J.G. Yes, I suppose so.

E.J.B. Is lawlessness the great challenge practically to all this?

A.J.G. Quite so, it is. Lawlessness is a challenge to God and His rights, and brings in what is offensive to His nature.

G.R.C. While we can make applications as to the past, is it important to keep in mind what has been said, that the children of God are unique to this dispensation? It bears on what you have said, that the full testimony as to what God is has come out now, and that has begotten children.

A.J.G. Quite so. We can see in Genesis that God was foreshadowing these things, and illustrating the truth for us, but we have to come to this dispensation to see the full substance of the thing, because there are those now who have been begotten by the testimony of God in Christ.

W.D. Does John in his ministry help us in a special way to name things?

A.J.G. Yes, he helps us to identify them as to whether they are of God or whether they are of the devil. There is no middle way with John.

W.D. Has not the history of the testimony arrived at a time now when we should name things and name them plainly?

A.J.G. I do think that. That is confirmed in the last chapter of Revelation where it says,

• "The time is near. Let him that does unrighteously do unrighteously still; and let the filthy make himself filthy still; and let him that is righteous practise righteousness still; and he that is holy, let him be sanctified still".

• So that, as you say, the time has come when things have got to be either the one thing or the other.

A.P.T. Cain is the only one named in this epistle. It is rather striking in regard to our brother's remark; the thing is named.

A.J.G. Quite so. And he initiates a way, what Scripture speaks of as

• "the way of Cain", Jude 11.

W.C.P. Is it striking that the comment here, that Cain's works were wicked, seems to allude to the part he took in the service of God?

A.J.G. Quite so, what have you in mind in that?

W.C.P. I was only just commenting on it. All that we are told about Cain is that he brought an offering and God was not pleased with it, and John, in naming things as we have been reminded, says that his works were wicked and those of his brother were righteous.

A.J.G. Well, the works were wicked, because he ignored the testimony that God had given.

• He ignored the testimony to righteousness and love and brought an offering that bore no reference to the testimony that God had given, which was the light that governed the situation, but he ignored it.

• It is therefore an important thing for us to see that we fully recognise and embrace the light that governs the moment.

C.H. Things are rightly named as their origin is understood.

A.J.G. I am sure that helps.

C.H. It says here, "not as Cain was of the wicked one". Is it not a question of derivation?

A.J.G. It is.

A.C.S.P. How far does what you have just said bear on the question of the light of the moment as to the knowledge of God in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and any reserves as to responding to that in the service of God?

A.J.G. It bears on it very much. The light for the moment must govern us in our approach to God, and the approach to God must take character from the light which governs the moment.

• If there has been a development in the recovery of the truth and further light is now shining, then we must take it on and see that our service God-ward is coloured by it, otherwise we are failing to respond to the truth as God presents it.

  Hymns to the Holy Spirit and to God as "the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit", were first included in the 1951 hymn book. Some of those who withdrew in 1954-56 objected to such hymns, as well as to worship addressed to God by the Name of Matthew 28: 19, or separately to the Spirit. See The Departure from the Truth after its Recovery, No. 14, The Ulster Outlook, No. 17, and The Manchester Connection, No. 18 – all in The Historical Reference Series. This matter also came up in Reading 1 of the 1953 London Meetings.   GAR

J.S.E. Is that the link between purifying himself and the matter of light?

A.J.G. I think it is; go on, please.

J.S.E. Well, I thought that this matter of purifying one's self involves that the light is allowed not only to break in, but to have its way. One thus relinquishes all that is in the way in one's self in order to go on with what is moving?

A.J.G. Quite so.

P.L. The brother-hater here is the God-hater, is he not?

A.J.G. Exactly.

P.L. The divine nature in the saints is what God is in love. If therefore one is at issue with one's brother, one is at issue with God, is he not?

A.J.G. Quite so. Abel was not against Cain; we may gather that Abel loved Cain, because God tells Cain that Abel's desire was towards him.

• Abel was not against Cain, the only thing that provoked Cain's enmity was that Abel was standing for the truth and approaching God as governed by the light for the moment.

A.McG. It has just been said that love is God's nature, but is it not true that both love and light are God's nature? If we are not governed by the light, will love have any room or liberty?

A.J.G. Well, I think the thought of light, as involved in this matter of sin and how it is to be met, really comes in in connection with righteousness.

• When God made coats of skin, He brought light as to what He is Himself to bear upon the whole situation and He exposed it in its sinfulness.

• At the same time as He exposed it, He judged it perfectly, but in judging it He shone in love. I am taking, of course, the meaning of the coats of skin as we understand it.

• Light shone in the way that righteousness was met and the light of love shone as well.

• What remains is the impression of love, but also the impression of righteousness, and we are to be formed in those two things, righteousness and love. It is really the combination, as you say, of light and love.

A.McG. Mr. Darby has made plain that righteousness is an attribute of God, and you were referring last night to purity and light in the heavenly city and the fact that purity is getting as near to the thought of light and the nature of God as we can.

A.J.G. Well, that is true, and righteousness as an attribute really flows out of what God is.

J.A.P. I would like some help on what has been said that the children of God only come in in this dispensation. Are not the children of Israel in the past dispensation and again in the future, in some sense, the children of God?

A.J.G. I think the full thought of children of God can only be applied to this dispensation.

• It says in John 1, "who have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh's will, nor of man's will, but of God".

• I do not think, as far as I know, you get the thought of being born of God applied to any other dispensation.

J.A.P. What about Ezekiel 36: 25-28?

A.J.G. That goes a long way, but it does not say, Ye shall be my children, does it? You could not say that they were born of God, as far as I understand it. I think being born of God applies to this dispensation.

P.L. Begotten of the revelation?

A.J.G. Yes, quite so.

E.J.M. Is it not important that as God has manifested Himself thus in this dispensation, His children should manifest the same features of His attributes?

A.J.G. His attributes and His nature.

H.W. In that connection would you say that in the children of God righteousness and love are almost synonymous terms, so to speak? Righteousness and love mark them as being of that generation?

A.J.G. Yes, I think that is right. So it says,

• "Do not wonder, brethren, if the world hate you. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren".

• The circle of the brethren is where love is to express itself and be developed.

H.W. And that is a righteous thing for a child of God?

A.J.G. It certainly is, exactly. The thing has come out in testimony in Christ and it is righteous that we should be formed by it.

G.R.C. Is it interesting, at this point, that he addresses them as brethren?

• Earlier he addresses them as his children, and as God's children, but now he says, "Do not wonder, brethren", involving that we are in a circle where there is the opportunity to express the divine nature to the fullest of our capacity.

A.J.G. Yes, that is so; he is bringing in the circle now. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren.

J.M. It says that Cain slew his brother, as Christ was slain, but it was on the line of love that Christ laid down His life for us.

A.J.G. Well, that is interesting. Hatred shows itself in slaying, but love shows itself in laying down one's life, and that was seen pre-eminently in Christ.

A.A.B. In John 8, in the two stoopings of the Lord, would there be the testimony of love and of righteousness? That being refused, did the spirit of Cain manifest itself against the Lord personally?

A.J.G. Yes, quite so. Hatred rises to its height in that chapter, does it not, in that they take up stones to stone Him.

J.McM. Would you say a word about verse 9,

• "Whoever has been begotten of God does not practise sin, because his seed abides in him".

• Is the evidence of his being begotten of God there?

A.J.G. That is important. We should take account of what we are, the seed to which we belong; it says, "his seed abides in him".

• The apostle is speaking of things abstractly and absolutely, and stating that the one who has been begotten of God does not practise sin. Obviously God's seed, that which is begotten of God, cannot have anything to do with sin.

• Hence all this is challenging to us as to how far we are identifying ourselves in our thoughts and outlook with what we are as of God, and how far we are repudiating and refusing, in the Spirit's power, everything else.

E.J.H. And so the Spirit is mentioned in the last verse of the chapter, to confirm that?

A.J.G. Quite so, "Hereby we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given to us".

J.McD. Would you say a word about the frequent occurrence of the expression "practise"? We have "practise sin", and "practise righteousness".

A.J.G. Our practice is what is characteristic of us, and our practice is that in which the seed, which we belong to, should show itself.

W.S.S. Would you say a word about verse 16?

A.J.G. That is a very important verse, and one which we need constantly to keep before us, because love is what God is looking for, and if I have not love I am nothing.

• The city is being formed and it is being formed substantially in love. But then we have to learn love,
  • "Hereby we have known love, because he has laid down his life for us".

• It is a wonderful expression, "he has laid down his life for us"; the emphasis is on the "He".

W.S.S. I was thinking of that, "he has laid down his life for us" and our apprehension of that by the Spirit would be the power for the next part of the verse, would it not?

A.J.G. Yes, it becomes a moral obligation –

• "we ought for the brethren to lay down our lives".

• It is a moral obligation resulting from our apprehension of the way love has shown itself in Christ.

W.S.S. Would you say it is the result of being engaged with the object?

A.J.G. Quite so. But then the love that Christ gave expression to in laying down His life is divine love; it is what God is. That is the length to which God would go; He has gone to that length in Christ.

A.B.P. And did that cover a period, rather than simply – when I say "simply" I say it guardedly – the cross? From the mount of Transfiguration and indeed before that, it says,

• "From that time Jesus began to show to his disciples that he must go away to Jerusalem, and suffer … and be killed, and the third day be raised", Matthew 16: 21.

A.J.G. Quite so. Then the actual experiences of the cross, and the testing at the hands of men that the Lord was subjected to, only brought out how absolute was the love in which He was laying down His life for us. Nothing could turn Him from it.

W.S. And is there something peculiarly pleasing and attractive to this thought of laying down His life? I was thinking of that word in John 10,

• "On this account the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it again"?

A.J.G. Yes, exactly. Then there is also the next verse, where it says,

• "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself".

• It is a most striking and touching word, "I lay it down of myself".

A.H.G. Does this go beyond the Old Testament law that

• "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"?

• Is this a feature that is really the substance of Christianity?

A.J.G. It is. Of course, in Christianity, in the power of the Spirit, the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled, but then this goes beyond it really.

R.G.B. Is that kept before us livingly, week by week, in the Lord's supper, and is the Lord's supper not only to be for us the entrance to the service of God, but to keep our affections in living freshness, so that we are marked by the activity of love towards one another?

A.J.G. Yes, I am sure of that.

A.B.P. Is this a characteristic matter, rather than being a martyr? Paul could say,

• "But I make no account of my life as dear to myself".

A.J.G. I am sure it is. It is not many believers nowadays that are called to be martyrs, but then love would express itself in characteristically laying down your life for the brethren over a long period, over the whole of your life indeed.

C.H. Does it not practically mean that we live for them?

A.J.G. It does, exactly.

A.P.C.L. Verse 17 being brought in as connected with that is a very practical matter, is it not?

A.J.G. It is, exactly.

A.P.C.L. It does not say, 'Whoso may have the world's substance, and see his brother having need and does not raise it in the care meeting,' it says

• "see his brother having need, and shut up his bowels from him".

• Is not that a matter that might exercise us as having the world's substance?

A.J.G. Exactly. God orders different circumstances, that some have this world's substance and others are needy, in order that there should be the development of love among the saints.

A.P.C.L. On an individual basis as well as collective, would you not say?

A.J.G. Indeed I would. This verse shows that we keep our eyes open in regard of temporal conditions, and then in chapter 5 we keep our eyes open in regard of spiritual conditions, so that if we see a brother sin we ask for him.

• It is thus contemplated that in our relations with one another, we keep our eyes open as regards both temporal circumstances and spiritual conditions.

E.J.H. Does not God often change our circumstances to give opportunity for all to give expression to this kind of thing?

A.J.G. Yes, quite so.

E.C.L. Does the reference to persuading our hearts before him link up with this question as to how we are in these practical matters which have been referred to?

A.J.G. I think so. I think we persuade our hearts before God by seeing that we are ourselves governed by the truth in a practical way. If we are not, it shows that we do not really appreciate the truth.

W.S.S. So in verse 18 it says,

• "let us not love with word, nor with tongue, but in deed and in truth".

A.J.G. You mean that the deed is put first?

W.S.S. Yes. I was thinking what our brother said in regard to the bowels being shut up, the deeds have to come into it, but then there is the truth too?

A.J.G. Quite so. So that what we do is to be governed by truth; it is to be genuine.

• You do not show kindness in the hope of ingratiating yourself in the minds of particular ones or anything of that sort, or gaining undue influence over them; Absalom did that, but here it is "in deed and in truth".

• All that we do is to be governed by truth.

W.S.S. That is what I was thinking; the deeds are to be governed by the truth. The truth is what is before us, as being lovers of the truth.

A.J.G. Quite so.

J.P.H. Could I ask for just a little help to distinguish between our hearts condemning us and our consciences?

A.J.G. The heart is the seat of the affections. What would you think about that?

J.P.H. I think so; I do see a great difference. Perhaps our affections need a little stimulating, but if we realise they do, we need not be discouraged. Can we get to God and have them stimulated, so that these things are freely flowing among us?

A.J.G. I am sure of that. In a sense there can be nothing greater for God than to see what He is in His own nature expressing itself in His children.

• He has set us together for that very purpose, that it might express itself and be developed, but that is a matter of the heart.

• An unconverted person has a conscience, but it is only a Christian that has a heart that is affected by divine love.

A.H.G. Why does it say, "God is greater than our heart"?

A.J.G. Well, we may attempt to conceal from ourselves that our heart is condemning us, but then God is greater than our heart.

• I think it is brought in in order to help us to face things in the sense that nothing can be concealed from God.

A.H. Would you say a word as to the expression John uses here in verse 19,

• "And hereby we shall know that we are of the truth"?

• He tells us elsewhere that we are of God. I wondered what was the force of that expression?

A.J.G. The truth is what is brought into the world in opposition to Satan's lie, and that is an important matter, the truth as to God that is in the world in testimony.

• It is not only in verbal testimony, but it is in the children of God and the way they act.

• Hence if we answer to these things and are moving in love, in deed and in truth, we know that we are of the truth.

Eu.R. Is not God the great source of all love and giving?

• "We love because he has first loved us".

A.J.G. Yes. I think it is a great help, in considering these writings of John, to bear in mind that what is in contest in the world is the truth, the truth as to God.

• That has been the point in contest ever since sin came into the world, and we, as children of God, are here as of the truth and to maintain testimony to the truth.

Eu.R. Right through this epistle God would involve the three Persons, as you have been saying, and so in the first verse of Genesis. We want to be very clear about that, do we not?

A.J.G. That is quite true, but I think if Scripture speaks of God we can leave it at that. We do not always want to analyse as to whether the three Persons are involved or not. God is God, and the truth is presented as to God.

E.C.M. Is this not in view of our being brought into a position of fixity and restfulness before God? I was thinking of what is said in the last verse of the chapter,

• "And he that keeps his commandments abides in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given to us".

A.J.G. Yes, I think so.

J.A.P. Is there any difference between being "born of God" and "born of the Spirit", as the Lord speaks of it?

A.J.G. "Born of the Spirit", has in view what is spirit. It seems to me that "born of God" is a very full thought.

C.W.O'L.M. Would you say just a word, please, on "believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ" as being His commandment?

A.J.G. That is the testimony that has come to us and it is that that we have to believe. We are to be characterised by it, believing on the name of His Son Jesus Christ. What have you in mind?

C.W.O'L.M. On the face of it, it seems such a simple statement, does it not, for presumably as believers that would mark us. I wondered whether there was something specific in the expression

• "the name of his Son Jesus Christ"?

A.J.G. I think it is that we are to be characteristically believers. It is not something that we say we believed so many years ago, but we are characteristically believers "on the name of his Son Jesus Christ".

• It brings in the full testimony of divine love in Christ and the way it has come out to us.

C.W.O'L.M. Does that govern, therefore, the rest of the verse?

A.J.G. Exactly, "and that we love one another". It is a commandment.

Wm.H. And does not the testimony come to us authoritatively in the thought of commandment?

A.J.G. It is a command that we should believe. We should be marked by that and we should love one another.

• The great tendency, among many believers nowadays, is to hold things secretly, but not to maintain these things publicly, and to go along with the drift of the world.

• But we are commanded to be believers on "the name of his Son Jesus Christ" and to love one another, so that there should be a testimony maintained in truth to what God is.

E.J.H. Continuous believing then would mean continuously with the truth?

A.J.G. Yes.

A.B.P. Do verses 19 and 20 give us the means of self-analysis to determine whether we are really in all this or not?

A.J.G. I am sure they do and it is intended that they should provoke that analysis, do you not think?

A.B.P. I wondered if Paul in a way gives us a similar line, when he says,

• "For I am conscious of nothing in myself; but I am not justified by this but he that examines me is the Lord", 1 Corinthians 4: 4.

A.J.G. Quite so. Then another thing is that if our heart does not condemn us we have boldness towards God and whatsoever we ask we receive from Him.

• That seems to be another feature of our position here in the testimony, that as answering to the truth, and having boldness towards God as a consequence, we can ask.

• It is as though God will delight to do things in answer to the requests of His children. He will do more, so to speak, in answer to our requests than by what we do ourselves.

L.F. Do all these things that we have just been speaking of really belong to the substantiality of Christianity which you drew our attention to earlier? Is that how it is shown and known?

A.J.G. That is it.

A.H. In verse 1 it speaks of "false prophets" but in verse 2, it says

• "every spirit which confesses Jesus Christ come in flesh is of God",

• and in verse 3, "every spirit which does not confess Jesus Christ come in flesh is not of God".

• Why is it spirit and not persons?

A.J.G. Because persons are the mouthpiece of spirits – either the Spirit of God, or some other spirit that is not of God.

• Teaching is either true and of the Spirit of God, or else it is opposed to the truth and another spirit lies behind it, hence the need for detection of what is of God and what is not of God.

H.W. So would you say this confession is not like that in Romans 10 – where we have confessing with the mouth; but it is the whole attitude and bearing of the person?

A.J.G. I think when it comes to the Spirit and the doctrine connected with the Spirit, it really is what is the essence of the thing.

• It may be clothed with a great deal that is deceptive, such as the quotation of Scripture and all that kind of thing, as we usually find false teachings are, but the point is to arrive at the real essence of it and what it thinks in regard of Christ, and what it thinks in regard of man.

L.F. This scripture disposes of anything in the way of compromise in regard to the truth, does it not? It is of God or it is not of God; it would allow no admixture at all in regard to this matter?

A.J.G. No exactly.

E.J.H. Would you say that it is a comfort and a stay to us all that as we rely upon the Spirit there is no need for anyone whatever to be deceived by anything that is in the world?

A.J.G. No, quite so. That reminds us of what we had yesterday in connection with the unction, but it is striking that it says

• the non-confession of "Jesus Christ come in flesh" is "that power of the antichrist".

• That shows the real character of it, that all that is antichristian is built up on the non-confession of "Jesus Christ come in flesh".

E.J.H. Yet the believer has far greater power than all the power that is arraigned against him?

A.J.G. Quite so.

E.C.M. Would the discernment you speak of be the result of having the senses exercised for distinguishing both good and evil?

A.J.G. Yes, that is necessary in order to get the gain of the Spirit of God, and I think

• this simple test, "Jesus Christ come in flesh" – if the import of it is understood – is extremely important.

• It involves the truth as to Christ in a very full way, the absolute truth as to His deity and His true manhood, and then what is its import, that every other man is superseded.

M.P.S. Is there any difference between not confessing "Jesus Christ come in flesh" and denying the Son in the second chapter?

• I was thinking that non-confession might refer to matters which are not clear on the face of them.

• Denying the Son would be clear perhaps to all, but are we certain as to this confession?

A.J.G. I think that helps, that denying the Son is something positive and would immediately be apparent to a true believer, but this is a question of discernment, as you say, because

• much that is false is clothed with that which is outwardly attractive, in the sense that the Scriptures are brought in and that kind of thing; hence the importance of really discerning what the essence of the teaching is.

P.H.H. The thought of deception is found in the second epistle, where it says,

• "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, they who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in flesh – this is the deceiver and the antichrist".

• Do you think those three things put together, the denying and then the power and then the deceiver, or deception, really expose the whole of modern religion in that sense?

A.J.G. I think so. One has often been impressed with the circumstances surrounding the taking of Christ by those with Judas; they were in league with, and sent by, the chief priests and scribes. It says for instance

• in Mark 14, "the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they might seize him by subtlety and kill him".

• Those are the religious leaders, and they are moving with subtlety with a view to getting rid of Christ, and that is exactly the character of modern religious teaching.

• While it takes on the name of Christ, it is attaching Christ and the Christian teaching to the first man, with a view eventually to getting rid of the need of Christ altogether, so that it is antichristian in its character and effect.

J.H. Will you please enlarge a little more on the thought of "Jesus Christ come in flesh" as being the evidence of the Spirit's operation in a person,

• as over against the popular religion of today, which confesses that Jesus lived a man here, as just an example to be followed in the power of the flesh?

A.J.G. I would connect the expression "Jesus Christ come in flesh" with what we have in chapter 1 of John's gospel,

• "the Word became flesh".

• That is to say it is the action of a divine Person; it is God Himself entering into manhood, and the popular religion of today based on following the example of Jesus as a perfect Man here, in the power of the flesh, does not confess that, does it?

J.H. No, quite, I was thinking of the movements of God into manhood, "Jesus Christ come in flesh" being with the view of the removal of that man completely.

A.J.G. Quite so. There was no need for God to introduce another man in the Person of His Son, if anything could be produced for the pleasure of God by the first man.

• The coming in of the Son of God "Jesus Christ come in flesh" – was evidence that the time had come in God's ways, and it was necessary too, and in fact essential, for the first man to be displaced and removed.

A.B.P. Should we consider also the mystery in the name of Jesus and its intimate link with Emmanuel in Matthew?

A.J.G. I am sure that is important, the very name itself involving His deity.

A.B.P. Jah the Saviour.

A.J.G. Yes.

P.H.H. Is this matter of the removal of the first order of man enlarged on somewhat by the Lord Himself in John 6, where He mentions several times His own flesh and His coming down?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so. He is presenting Himself in the grace of His coming down from heaven as food for the believer.

• But then when it comes to appropriating the food we find that He changes the figure from bread to eating His flesh and drinking His blood, that is appropriating His death.

P.H.H. And do we understand that in that death, alluded to in the flesh and the blood, we are to see the termination of the first order of man and, therefore, to open ourselves to the consideration of the order of Man that is in Christ?

A.J.G. Yes, exactly. He took up flesh and blood condition in order, vicariously, to terminate it before God in His death and then to open up in Himself a new order of manhood beyond death.

H.D.T. Does Paul approach that in 1 Corinthians 15 in the two titles he gives the Lord,

• "the second man, out of heaven" and "the last Adam"?

A.J.G. I think so. I suppose "the second man, out of heaven" involves that the first man has been displaced in favour of the second,

• and "the last Adam" involves that finality has been reached.

H.D.T. And He replaces the man that has been displaced by what takes character from Himself.

A.J.G. Exactly.

W.W.S. Does it in any way bear on the matter to say that when Paul met the evil spirit in Philippi he met it in the power of the name of Jesus Christ?

• I was thinking that there you had in principle the spirit of antichrist working, but do you think it was met by the confession of the name of Jesus Christ?

A.J.G. Yes, that is good.

R.J.W. In John 8, when it was a question of the Lord's Person, and they asked who He was, He said,

• "Altogether that which I also say to you",

• and just prior to that the Lord says,
  • "Unless ye shall believe that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins".

A.J.G. That is a remarkable chapter, because in it we have the Lord speaking of Himself as

• "a man who has spoken the truth to you, which I have heard from God",

• and then He says, "Before Abraham was, I am".

• So that there is a remarkable combination in that chapter in the Lord's own words of the truth of His Person.

A.H.G. Why does the apostle link up here this non-confession of Jesus Christ come in flesh with the power of the antichrist?

A.J.G. Because that is just where the power of antichrist lies. The refusal to accept the necessity for the setting aside of man after the flesh, the first order of man, lies at the very base of all antichristian teaching.

A.H.G. Would antichrist in that way be the displacement of Christ?

A.J.G. Yes, quite so.

E.J.H. In John 6 the Lord says,

• "It is the Spirit which quickens, the flesh profits nothing – the words which I have spoken unto you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who do not believe".

• I was thinking of the setting aside of the first man in totality – how few are prepared to believe it.

A.J.G. Exactly, I think it helps to see that the title "the Christ" is very exclusive. There are many antichrists, but there is only one Christ. So that the very title "the Christ" is exclusive of every other man; He is the anointed of God.

A.B.P. Do you connect the removal of the first man with the second cry of Jesus on the cross, and in that sense does it make it a very feeling and precious matter to us?

A.J.G. Exactly, I have no doubt, in one sense, that God felt it that man after the flesh had to be removed, do you not think? It says in regard to the condition of things just before the flood that

• "it grieved him in his heart".

• We perhaps do not enter into the feelings of God in regard of these matters, but then the grief that He would feel must be more than counter-balanced by the joy that is His now in having a Man of Christ's own order in His presence, and myriads partaking in His life and order by the Spirit.

E.C.L. Do you think John enters into that when he addresses the saints as "Beloved" in this chapter? It is not 'brethren' or 'children' but "Beloved". Would it help us to see the likeness to Christ in them?

A.J.G. It shows the feelings that are in the heart of the apostle in writing. We get this expression "Beloved" at least three times in the chapter.

Ques. Do we see the spirit of antichrist in type in Absalom as he stole the hearts of the people?

A.J.G. Yes, we do, and, of course, as we read in Revelation; antichrist has the appearance of a lamb but when he speaks he speaks as a dragon. We, therefore, have to be careful of deceptive appearances.

H.D.T. Had you in mind, when you spoke about the chief priests and the scribes and the elders taking counsel by subtlety to take Jesus, that it was something deliberate? It is said of Absalom that the conspiracy grew stronger.

A.J.G. Oh! it is deliberate; there is no doubt about that. So that evil spirits, that is, what is opposed to God, will lend themselves to it, to bring in systematised error.

• It has the appearance of what is Christian attached to it and the Scriptures brought forward out of their setting in order to support it, but it is all a subtle, deliberate intention to get rid of Christ.

P.L. So that the gates of hades, in Matthew 16, are seen operating after the glory of the Person of Christ is confessed,

• "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God".

A.J.G. Quite so. It is a most comforting thing that there is that here which is impregnable, which the gates of hades cannot prevail against, and it is great grace that we should have part in it.

M.P.S. How are we to understand the expression, "every spirit", the first time it occurs, in verse 2?

A.J.G. It is a question of what lies behind everything that is presented to us as teaching. If it is true, the Spirit of God lies behind it; if it is not true, another spirit lies behind it.

M.P.S. Would it be seen in Paul saying that he served God in his spirit in the glad tidings of His Son?

A.J.G. That would be Paul's own spirit, of course, and the feeling that accompanied his service, but in the actual ministry of Paul, the Spirit of God was behind it.

A.B.P. When James and John suggested fire coming down from heaven, the Lord said,

• "Ye know not of what spirit ye are".

• Would that be like the gates of hades operating subtly to misrepresent the dispensation that Jesus had just committed Himself to?

A.J.G. Just so. Reference has been made to the spirit in the young woman that followed Paul and Silas at Philippi. There was a semblance of truth in what she said,

• "These men are bondmen of the Most High God, who announce to you the way of salvation", Acts 16: 17.

G.A.L. Does it not touch the question of the revelation of God, "Jesus Christ come in flesh", He came to reveal God. If that is denied, the revelation is denied, is it not?

A.J.G. Quite so.

A.C.S.P. Was the evidence of one of these spirits at work in Peter, in Matthew 16, when the Lord had to say to him, "Get away behind me, Satan"?

A.J.G. Well, working through means of sentiment and natural feeling; but then that is not quite what we have in this chapter; this is definite teaching, doctrines.

A.C.S.P. I was really wanting some help as to how this matter of wrong teaching may come in amongst us, because it is evident that the enemy is trying to get in in different parts.

A.J.G. Well, that is why everything has to be tested.

W.S.S. I suppose this would link with Ephesians 4,

• "that we be no longer babes, tossed and carried about by every wind of that teaching which is in the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning with a view to systematised error".

• Would this be the same thing in principle?

A.J.G. It would.

A.J.D. Would this be seen in the addresses to the assemblies in Revelation 2 and 3, in the expression "the synagogue of Satan"? Would that have this kind of thing in mind especially in the last days?

A.J.G. Quite so. You mean that there is what has religious character that is definitely of Satan, opposed to the truth, I suppose that was largely Jewish tendencies, but the Lord exposes them as being of Satan.

J.S.E. Do these remarks suggest to us that the power for trying the spirits only lies within the family circle?

A.J.G. Well, that is true because it only lies in those who have the Spirit of God, who are born of God. But what have you in mind in saying that?

J.S.E. I thought the writer was crediting the saints with ability on this line, and we are to put the ability into execution.

A.J.G. Quite so. That is important. It is a question of overcoming, and maintaining the overcoming, and therefore maintaining the truth in sound teaching and in walk that is consistent with it.

J.S.E. Is it not a fact that whilst much is made historically of the nativity, even amongst professing believers, this that you have referred to, "Jesus Christ come in flesh" is unknown, and people are led astray by the mere historical thoughts of the nativity?

A.J.G. That is so, and it is sorrowful to see many believers affected by unsound teaching. Although at bottom they would not accredit what was basically unsound, they are, for the time being, often deluded by it.

G.A.L. Is there not a very specious form of attack in the way of household visitations with literature, which sisters may have to meet on the doorstep? When these people are tested by the deity of Christ the whole thing is exposed, but there is a very subtle movement afoot, is there not, in the world on these lines?

A.J.G. Quite so. That is the case, that often the sisters are confronted with this kind of thing in house-to-house visitation. We find that, of course, in the second epistle.

J.A.P. Is not the final test the apostolic teaching,

• "He that knows God hears us"?

A.J.G. Yes, it is; hence the great importance of following up the apostolic teaching. The early believers were marked by that; they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles.

A.W.G.T. What is the distinction between what we are speaking of and what Paul speaks of as profane, vain babblings which we are to shun?

A.J.G. Well, they might not be exactly systematic teaching. Profane, vain babblings seems to refer a good deal to what may be just loose talking and a multitude of words with nothing in it. But this is systematic cleverness, instigated by the devil.

W.S.S. In Ephesians 4 – if I may refer to it again, for it seems to link with this – we have that which comes from Christ as Head through the gifts by the Spirit, first, and then that ye be not as babes,

• and here we have the teaching also, as if we must be in the sphere of divine teaching from Christ by the Spirit if we are to be preserved from these insidious attacks on the truth.

A.J.G. Quite so, and it is significant here that the apostle exposes all this as being of the world.

• "They are of the world; for this reason they speak as of the world, and the world hears them".

• The world has many different departments, and phases, you might say, but the basic feature of the world is that it is man's world, for the glory of man.

W.S.S. And this would be particularly, to use your word, the religious department!

A.J.G. Yes, and it is all of this principle, that it is for the exaltation of man.

P.L. Do you not think there is a call for a systematic and sequential teaching, that the mind may be bulwarked against these inroads of darkness?

A.J.G. I think there is.

P.L. In temple enquiry, and the authority of the gifts too? It is an independent and insubject mind, is it not, that lays itself open to these attacks?

A.J.G. Quite so, I think that is important. An element of insubjection with us, or any allowance of anything that is not right, exposes us to the enemy's attack, so I suppose that is why it is that the Lord in speaking to Peter called him Satan, and the trouble was that his mind was not on the things of God but on the things of man.

W.S.S. It has impressed me very much for years that unless we are in the current of the Spirit's teaching at any given time we are bound to come under the influence of wrong teaching. Would you say that?

A.J.G. Yes, I think that is right.

W.C. Would that be confirmed by the fact that it says,

• "Hereby ye know the Spirit of God"?

• That is the Spirit objectively, is it not? Then it immediately says.
  • "every spirit which confesses Jesus Christ come in flesh is of God".

• Does that mean that the Spirit is only here in connection with the identification with that order of man in the saints?

• He was here in relation to Christ, was He not, for the Lord says, "ye know him" in John 14? Now the word says, "ye know the Spirit of God".

A.J.G. Well, the Spirit of God is supporting the truth as to Christ, His deity and His true manhood, and what the import of His having come into manhood is.

A.L.R.T. Are there two basic tests for us – the Person of Christ and the apostolic teaching? Is that what we see in this third section?

A.J.G. Yes, I think so.