I suppose the first idea of enlargement of the natural man began with Cain.

• He went out from the presence of the Lord, and he built a city. He was not content with what was small and insignificant; he wanted something big, and he built a city.

• And we all know about the tower of Babel, when men sought to make a name for themselves on the earth, and to build a tower that might reach to the heavens. They pulled up their tent pegs, and moved, and built a tower.

• They were not satisfied with tent conditions, and limited spheres and areas, they wanted something to which they could attach their own name, and which would add to their own glory;
  • but God, as we know, came down in judgment upon it and overthrew it absolutely.

If we think, however, of an individual believer, Lot; his idea was to acquire as much as possible of this world’s goods.

• “Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of the Jordan … as the garden of Jehovah, like the land of Egypt … and Lot chose for himself all the plain of the Jordan”, Genesis 13: 10.

• He wanted to expand upon the earth, which he did. Did he expand inwardly? Far otherwise. He became very, very greatly restricted and very cramped inwardly, although he had become very great outwardly.

• And anyone who desires to become great outwardly, and to enlarge himself as to this world’s goods becomes cramped and limited spiritually;
  • whereas those who have the preciousness of divine things before them will seek according to those desires for the very best that God can give His people in the Spirit;

• they will seek, by every means they can, to acquire those precious, abiding, and eternal things. For it is not enough merely to have desires. The scripture says,
  • “A sluggard’s soul desireth and hath nothing; but the soul of the diligent shall be made fat”, Proverbs 13: 14.

• We may hear it said sometimes, ‘Well, of course you must be very careful; you must not have spiritual aspirations; you must remain lowly and small, and not have any aspirations at all’.

• But that is not scripture. The scripture says,
  • “If anyone aspires to exercise oversight, he desires a good work”, 1 Timothy 3: 1.

• Aspiration spiritually means work; it means diligence; it means service, and sacrifice.

• The Lord, speaking to His disciples, referred to the nations of the world that sought expansion in regard to material things, and for those that should exercise lordship over others, acquiring a place and power among men, the Lord says,
  • “But ye shall not be thus”, Luke 22: 25; and,

  • “All these things the nations seek after … But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you”, Matthew 6: 33.

I am only referring to the natural tendency for enlargement that we might be warned in relation to it, and give ourselves wholly to the thought of being enlarged spiritually.

• I would quote one more illustration in Nebuchadnezzar, who said with pride of heart,
  • “Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power and for the glory of my majesty?”, Daniel 4: 30.

• God heard those words, and he brought him down to the dust of the earth, and having learnt his lesson he extolled the God of the heavens who could bring the lowly and set them on high, and bring down the high and mighty and make them like the beasts of the field.

• He had learned his lesson. He had to part, under the judgment of God, with all his expansion, outwardly, that he might be expanded inwardly.

• That is the price we must all pay in some form or another, in letting go the idea of enlargement outwardly, that we might be enlarged inwardly;
  • and, as the apostle Paul says, to “have this treasure in earthen vessels”.

• He had what he might have boasted in by way of earthly things – education, and so on; but he had arrived at a judgment about them, and was able to say,
  • “Surely I count also all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord”, Philippians 3: 8.

• He let all those things go in the way of outward enlargement, for he came to he judgment that they were not only of no value at all, but that
  • they were a positive hindrance and but filth in the light of “the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord”.

• And he could say, “we have this treasure in earthen vessels”, a treasure that is never to pass away.

• This is the time, beloved brethren, when we can be diligent to gather up treasure that moth shall never destroy, and that thieves can never break through and steal.

• “Lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven”, the Lord said; and this is the time to lay up such treasure, to have it in earthen vessels and to have it added to today.

Now we have read of a man, Jabez, who was more honourable than his brethren.

• It seems that there were not many, therefore, who had desires of this kind.

• Very little is told of him, his whole life we might say, is covered by expression of his desires in prayer; and the words,
  • “And God brought about what he had requested”.

• And what were the things he asked for? First of all, that the Lord would richly bless him; he not merely asked the Lord to bless him, but to richly bless him. We are reminded that
  • “The blessing of Jehovah, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow to it”.

• This is a blessing to go in for.

• Jacob, you know, was a very crooked man, and a very wilful man, and a very subtle, or artful man, but there is one thing about Jacob that is to his credit, and that is, he coveted above all else the blessing of the Lord.

• He devised means, as he thought, to acquire it, but God overruled everything according to the desire of His heart. He could say, looking on not only to his sons, but to his son’s sons, for he had them brought before him; and he could say,
  • “The God that shepherded me all my life long to this day, the Angel that redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads”, Genesis 48: 15.

• He wanted the blessing that the Lord had given him to be passed on to his sons, and to his grandsons, coveting the blessing not only for himself, but for all his descendants, that the Lord would bless them.

• And this was the desire of Jabez above all other things, that the Lord would richly bless him and, as he said, that He would enlarge his border.

• Now that, connected with the blessing of the Lord, cannot mean in its teaching to us spiritually that he desired greater possessions in a material way,
  • but that he desired to have a larger possession, and a greater enjoyment, of the good things that God had prepared for His people.

• In the beginning of the epistle to the Corinthians, speaking of these great things, they are referred to as,
  • “Things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man’s heart, which God has prepared for them that love him”, 1 Corinthians 2: 9.

• And these things are brought to us, revealed to us, made good to us by the precious service of the Holy Spirit.

• Marvellous things beyond the range of man, the eye and the ear and the heart all being secured for the incoming of these precious things which are all wrapped up, I might say, in the knowledge of God!

• It is said that we are to grow by the true knowledge of God, to grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

• And Jabez asks that the Lord might enlarge his border, that he might have a greater enjoyment of the divine thoughts in the blessing of His people. Then he prays,
  • “And that thy hand might be with me”.

• What a comforting thing it is to have a sense that the Lord is with you, that though all men should forsake you, and all your brethren might forsake you, yet to be able to say, ‘the Lord is with me’.

• It is a wonderful secret, and the blessedness of it and the privilege is open to every one of us.

The apostle Paul travelled this way. He could say that all they in Asia have turned away from me, nevertheless, the Lord stood with me – 2 Timothy chapters 1 and 4.

• What a comfort it was to him!

• You remember too when he was in Corinth and things were exceedingly difficult, and it looked as if he might lose his life, and he was prepared to leave the city and go elsewhere, the Lord spoke to him that night and assured him,
  • “I am with thee, and no one shall set upon thee to injure thee”; and that he must remain in the city, for, the Lord said, “I have much people in this city”, Acts 18: 10.

• And he remained there for a year and six months after the Lord spoke to him and assured him that though all the city might be against him, the Lord was with him.

• And can we not say, ‘If God be for us who can be against us?’

• There are many of our dear brethren passing through very real exercises at the present time, feeling lonely, as if all have abandoned them, but oh!

• to be able to say in quietness and in confidence, ‘The Lord is with me, and if the Lord is with me, I want to be with Him’.The Psalmist could say,
  • “It is good for me to draw near to God”;

• and God tells us that if we draw near unto Him, He will draw near unto us. And then Jabez asks,
  • “that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me”.

• He does not say that I might be kept from evil that it might not grieve Thee, but that it might not grieve me.

• In fact he lived in a day when evil was rampant, and where the inroads of the enemy might easily discourage him and bring him down to the level of man, and he wanted to be kept from the evil, he wanted to have his spirit ungrieved.

• Does it not remind us of the Lord’s prayer to the Father,
  • “I do not demand that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them out of evil”, John 17.

• This was the prayer of the Lord; have we not all prayed the Lord’s prayer – that we may be kept from the evil, that it might not grieve us?

• Certainly that it might not grieve the Lord, but that it might not grieve us, that we shall be restful, and joyful, with the consciousness that the Lord is with the pure in heart; and as He said,
  • “The pure in heart shall see God”.

• These were the desires of one who was more honourable than his brethren, and it says,
  • “God brought about what he had requested”.

Now I would suggest that while these are precious things and are within our range in the Spirit, it is a very serious matter to ask for them, because in asking for them, and desiring that they shall come to pass,

• we have to leave to the Lord the way and the time by which they shall come to pass.

• So while it says, “God brought about what he had requested”, it does not say how long He took to do it, and it does not say what means He chose to bring these desires to pass.

• And, dear brethren, we must all be prepared, if we are helped to have desires of this kind, to leave to the Lord the time and the way He may select to bring them to pass.

• We would like an easy way for them to come to pass, and we would like them to come to pass quickly, but we must leave the whole matter to the Lord.

• I remember a servant of the Lord saying to us on one occasion that he felt the need of being established in a certain feature of the truth, and he prayed much about it: and,
  • he said, ‘very soon after that there came a very great disaster in my life, and I was almost crushed by it, and in urgent prayer I asked the Lord why He had sent such a sorrow into my life’, but he said, ‘before I got off my knees the Lord gave me the answer, reminding me that I have asked Him to help me in regard to this feature of the truth, and this was the way He had chosen to bring my desire to pass’.

  • “God brought about what he had requested”.

• Did not Job pass through these very, very sorrowful experiences? He had right desires, as we are told at the beginning of the book, but what a remarkable way God chose to bring them to pass!

• We have read from the Psalm where the psalmist says,
  • “In pressure thou hast enlarged me”.

• It is not, ‘In pressure I have become enlarged’, as if it happened accidentally, but “In pressure thou hast enlarged me”.
  • And, as we know, pressure means diminution on one line, but it means expansion on another line.

• It is remarkable that in two consecutive psalms we get a request on the part of the people of God for flesh. In one psalm it says,
  • “They asked, and he brought quails” or flesh “and satisfied them with the bread of heaven”, Psalm 105: 40;

• and I suppose the quails, or the flesh, in that setting refer to mercies connected with our lives here, such as wives, and children, and happy home conditions that belong to life here; and we can ask for them –
  • “Give us this day our daily bread”.

• And it says God satisfied them with the bread of heaven; so that there is no eternal satisfaction in the very best of what belongs to earth.

In the next psalm the word is changed, and it says.

• “They lusted exceedingly in the wilderness and tempted God in the desert. Then he gave them their request, but sent leanness into their soul”.

• They had what they lusted after, even the things of this life, and they received them in abundant measure, but He sent leanness into their souls; or as Mr. Darby puts it in his French Bible,
  • “He gave them spiritual consumption”.

• Who would seek spiritual consumption? Who would wish to be diminished in his spiritual stature and understanding? Nobody.

• But the Lord speaks about the sowing of the seed, and the cares and the riches and the pleasures of this life choking the word, and no fruit brought to perfection.

• We all have to be watchful that neither the cares nor the riches nor the pleasures of this life have any choking process with us in regard to our spiritual expansion.

• Job was brought very, very low until he had come to a right judgment about himself, and he can then say. abhorring himself in dust and ashes,
  • “I know that thou canst be hindered in no thought of thine”, Job 42.

• What a remarkable way God took to expand Job spiritually! He stripped him of everything except his own life; but his latter end was far better than the beginning.

• He had a second family, and they had distinctive names, as if God poured out upon that man the greatest blessings that could ever be given to mortal man.

• But what a way He took to bring it to pass! And forty-two chapters of the Bible are given to the enlargement, through pressure, of one man.

• Does it not remind us that every tear and every sorrow of every saint are of great account in the sight of God?

• We may consider that we are puny, and that we are isolated units, but if the Spirit of God devotes forty-two chapters to the spiritual enlargement of one man,
  • it would remind us of the immense preciousness of the life here of every believer, and the enlargement that comes to him through the pressure that God passes him through.

  • “In pressure thou hast enlarged me; be gracious unto me, and hear my prayer”, says the psalmist;

  • and later on he says, “Many say, who shall cause us to see good?”

• Men will say that, they will say you are not going in for the best things in this life, what good can you expect from a separate pathway, and being unworldly; there is no good in that, there is no happiness in it.

• But as we are often reminded, man finds gratification in those things, but he never finds satisfaction.
  • “He … satisfied them with the bread of heaven”.

• They gratified their own flesh according to their lusts, and there was no satisfaction in that.

There are those who say too, you know, ‘But if you are going to be entirely separate like this, you will cut yourself off from a great work amongst Christians and great evangelical service’.

• That is not so according to Scripture; and we want in these days, more than ever to be guided by Scripture,
  • excluding man’s ideas and theories and charitable opinions, leaving them all out of account, cleaving to the word;

• and the Scripture tells us that one who separates himself wholly to the Lord becomes
  • “a vessel unto honour, sanctified, serviceable to the Master”.

• Does it end there? No;
  • “prepared for every good work”, every good work, 2 Timothy 2.

• It does not say that he does every good work, but he is a vessel fitted to do everything that God can call a good work; and that is all that matters, that a truly separate person can undertake every good work that may fall to the lot of a believer.

• Many will say, “Who shall cause us to see good?” But we say,
  • “Lift up upon us the light of thy countenance, O Jehovah”.

• That is worth everything else; and what a joy it is to be in the unclouded favour of the blessed God Himself, that His countenance might be lifted up upon us, and there might be no shadow, and no shade between the Lord and ourselves!

• How very often is quoted the passage,
  • “Jehovah bless thee and keep thee; Jehovah lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace”, Numbers 6: 24.

• But this comes at the end of a chapter that begins with wholehearted devotedness to God, in complete separation to Himself.

• You cannot have the last part of the chapter in blessing unless you have the first part of the chapter in separation; it is important to see that.

• We ask the Lord to bless all His people: that is our desire, and His too, that He might bless all His people.

• But then while His desires are that they should all be blessed, God does not, and indeed cannot, bless any that may be going on in a course displeasing to Himself.

• Nevertheless we do look out upon all His people, and desire their blessing, and we can ask God to bless them in the sense that He will choose the way and the time by which they shall come into the blessing that is in His heart for them. So the psalmist says,
  • “Lift up upon us the light of thy countenance, O Jehovah”.

• And then he speaks of the joy that is in his heart,
  • “Thou hast put joy in my heart, more than in the time that their corn and their new wine was in abundance”.

• There you get the contrast between outward expansion and an inward joy, and the inward joy is of far greater value than the very, very best of earth, and that nature can produce,
  • “more than in the time that their corn and their new wine was in abundance”.

• And he closes with the thought of peace,
  • “In peace I will both lay me down and sleep”.

• He can delight in the thought that there is peace and joy, and he can lay himself down in peace.
  • “For thou, Jehovah, alone makest me to dwell in safety”,

• or, as the footnote reminds us, it may read, ‘although I am alone thou makest me yet to dwell in safety’.

• Oh, to be prepared to be alone, to be alone for the Lord’s sake, and thus to have the Lord with us,

• and find in the loneliness there is peace, and joy, and restfulness, in the sense that the Lord has lifted up the light of His countenance upon us, and has given us peace!

At the commencement of the psalm it says as we have seen, “in pressure thou hast enlarged me”,

• and when we think of such a one as Paul, we have one who had acquired the very best that this world could produce, having sat at the feet of Gamaliel, a Pharisee of Pharisees, and so on, and

• as he writes to the Corinthians, what a course he takes with them in his ministry, for he saw them as having been converted, having been brought out of man’s world of greatness and expansion, and marvellous buildings – Corinthian buildings – and so on!

• He saw them converted and taken out of it all, and yet there remained with them the idea of human greatness even in the new position in which they were;
  • even in the assembly setting in which they found themselves, there was still this idea of bigness.

• They were setting up different brothers and ranging themselves under brothers instead of ranging themselves under the Lord.

• They were comparing themselves with one another, and not being wise; they were reigning as kings, as Paul says, but reigning without Him.

• I suppose Paul was referring to the fact that they wanted even in their assembly relations to be big and important, and to have special fellowship, shall I say, and special parties, and to be parties unto themselves,
  • and he tells them that in his own history what he had learned in the knowledge of God was by means of being reduced in pressure.

  • “In pressure thou hast enlarged me”.

• His name had been Saul, Saul of Tarsus, but when he is called Paul for the first time it is said,
  • “But Saul, who also is Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit”.

• You get the change of name to Paul, which means ‘little’, immediately when it is said that he was filled with the Holy Spirit.
  • And it is those who are little in their own eyes that the Lord is with, and upon whom He lifts up the light of His countenance.

• King Saul had begun in that way, being little, but outgrew his littleness and became big, and powerful and important, authoritative, self-confident. What were the words of the prophet to him?
  • “Was it not when thou wast little in thine eyes?” 1 Samuel 15: 17.

• All was well with him, but when he grew to be big and important he lost everything; lost his kingdom, and lost his own life, because he wanted to become big, and not retain the littleness that was there in him when God had blessed him and given him the kingdom.

And so Paul writes much to the Corinthians about the pressure that had been brought to bear on him, and he speaks of what he had gained.

• In chapter one of his second epistle he refers, not so much in detail as in the chapter we have read, to what he had passed through by way of tribulation and persecution,
  • and I think he mentions the word ‘encourage’ nearly ten times in five verses of the first chapter – indeed five times in one verse –

• as he tells the Corinthians that all that he had passed through had added to his own knowledge of God, for he had been greatly encouraged of God that he might be able to encourage others who were in any tribulation whatsoever.

• So you see as we become enlarged spiritually in the knowledge of God, not only do we get the comfort of it for ourselves, but we become available for the comfort of others, as Paul says to Timothy,
  • “For, doing this, thou shalt save both thyself and those that hear thee”, 1 Timothy 4: 16.

• It is a question of saving yourself first, and then saving those who hear you.

• So he can speak of the treasure in earthen vessels. He is not going to speak much of what he had acquired in regard to the things of this life;
  • he tells us what they were, but only to tell us what his judgment about them is;

  • as if he is saying – and indeed he does say – to the Corinthians, I want you to be enlarged spiritually, but this is the way into it.

• It is not by going up in this world that you get enlargement, it is by going down.

• As he speaks of the treasure in earthen vessels, in the knowledge that he has of God Himself he refers to a very, very precious thing:
  • on the one hand he can speak of the outward man being consumed day by day, but on the other, of the inward man being renewed.

• You see, on the one hand outwardly there is diminution, and reduction and pressure; but on the other hand, and co-equal with it, co-measurable with it, might I say, is the renewal inwardly day by day.
  • “Always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus”; what more?

  • “That the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our body”. Later he says – “in our mortal flesh”.

Now I suggest, beloved brethren, that we little realise the wonderful possibilities in flesh and blood conditions as having the precious gift of the Holy Spirit, that we might be more and more like the One we love.

• Mr. Darby said, “I know I am going to be perfectly like Him one day, and I desire to be as like Him as possible today”.

• And that should be the desire, followed up with diligence, on the part of every believer. So John says in his epistle,
  • “What we shall be has not yet been manifested; we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is”, 1 John 3: 2.

  • And what next? “And everyone that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure”.

• God does not do this purification; we do, and the more we are occupied with the One to whom we shall be like for ever and ever,
  • and the more we love Him, the more we shall become like Him today. And that is open to every one of us, and to the youngest believer.

• How like his Master Stephen was! Was he not enlarged through pressure and persecution, the stones being hurled at his body? It says,
  • “Kneeling down, he cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge”, Acts 7: 60.

• It would seem, as I might say, that he knelt down so that every one in front of him should be able to see his attitude;

• while if there were any who were hard of hearing, they should be able to hear a loud voice saying,
  • “Lord, lay not this sin to their charge”.

• Just like the voice of Jesus at the cross,
  • “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do”.

• Stephen was just like Jesus.

• At the beginning of the Acts, Peter and John were called upon to answer for what they had done in regard to the lame man,

• the names of their judges are given to us, and we note that of those judges, two had been face to face with Jesus; and it says, that
  • “seeing the boldness of Peter and John, and perceiving that they were unlettered and uninstructed men, they wondered”, Acts 4: 13.

• You will notice the two things going together, that they were bold, but their boldness did not reside in their earthly education or upbringing. It says,
  • “they recognised them that they were with Jesus”,

• and I would like to suggest this, that when they saw their boldness they knew that it did not spring from human circumstances.

• They said to themselves, ‘we have seen somebody just like this before’, and they said, ‘it was Jesus’.

Paul says, “always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested”.

• And at the end of the chapter he speaks of “our momentary and light affliction”.

• You will notice how things are weighed and valued according to what we hold most precious. Paul has told us of his afflictions; for our sakes he has told us a good deal about them.

• We should have said it was all dreadful, but he says it is temporary; it is but for a short time, and it is light,
  • and “our momentary and light affliction works for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things that are seen but at the things that are not seen; for the things that are seen are for a time, but those that are not seen are eternal”.

• Mr. Darby was often found quoting a Spanish proverb, that ‘it is harder to live a Christian than die a martyr’.

• By this, apparently, was meant that if we were asked to concentrate our love for the Lord Jesus into one single act, even to martyrdom, we all might be prepared for it, and have the grace for it,
  • but to live the life of Jesus, which is a sustained denial of the natural life, the life of flesh, means to die daily, and that is a profoundly real and constant matter.

• The apostle could speak of it as the dying of Jesus, not exactly death, which would be right, but the dying of Jesus that the life also of Jesus might be manifested in our mortal flesh.

• And later on, in his epistle he speaks about his own affections for the Corinthians and that he wanted their hearts to be enlarged;
  • that his heart had been such towards them that he had not been able to express his love in words and in deeds.

• But now that they had paid heed to the ministry he can say that his heart is expanded towards them, and he asks them to give him the joy of knowing that their own hearts have become enlarged,
  • in regard to the one who had ministered these precious things to them, and in regard to the Lord Himself.

May the Lord encourage us then, dear brethren, to go in for these things without reserve that we might all be able to say, even at the close of this very day, that a little more treasure has gone into the earthen vessels, for His Name’s sake!

I thought perhaps that we could encourage one another in the strengthening of our faith and with the consciousness of the Lord being with His people.

• Although difficult journeys are undertaken, they are not undertaken according to our own desires.

• In fact we would avoid all the problems and testings of such journeys; but once we realize that the Lord originated the journey, then although He may seem to be silent and inactive we should be satisfied with having Him with us; for that is worth all else.

• Mark’s gospel particularly is concerned with lack of faith and hardness of heart on the part of the disciples, and I am quite sure that most of us think we have much more faith than we really have.

• I believe many of our dear brethren are held where they are because they lack faith. Although all would say that they have faith, circumstances may prove how little faith we have.

C.C.M. The Lord prayed that Peter’s faith might not fail.

E.J.H. The Lord said to Peter,

• “I have besought for thee that thy faith fail not”, Luke 22: 32.

• We often say his conduct broke down but his faith did not because the Lord had prayed that it should not break down.

• If you go through the gospel of Mark you find that the disciples are so often seen to be lacking in faith, and unbelieving and hard-hearted;
  • so it has instruction for us because we are as they were and we cannot take higher ground than they.

• So at the very end of the Gospel, when there is witness to the Lord’s resurrection, one witness comes and then two witnesses come, but they still do not believe, and the Lord comes Himself and reproaches them for their unbelief and hardness of heart.

R.G.B. Do you think we could take Abraham as an example of having faith? Scripture says that he found strength in faith giving glory to God.

E.J.H. Quite. Abraham is said to be

• “the father of all them that believe”, Rom. 4: 11;

• and is also called “Abraham our father”;

• and the Lord says of Zacchaeus, “he is a son of Abraham”.

• What has always interested and encouraged me is that Romans speaks of
  • “the steps of the faith … of our father Abraham”.

• He did not have to take all the steps at once.

• The Lord leads us on gently in that way, and if we answer to His call in faith we grow in faith, so that we are able to take, if I might use the expression, bigger steps as time goes on.

• In his case the greatest step of all was, of course, to offer up his son Isaac.

• We might say, perhaps, Abraham would not have been equal to it earlier, but on the other hand he was not asked to offer up Isaac as a babe when he had not had time to have his affections and hopes wrapped round him;
  • but he was asked to give him up when he was a young man, and Abraham had all those years to cherish him and love him and feel that he could not do without him.

• I suppose that was his greatest step of faith; and so I think the Lord would encourage us all to take one step at a time, and every step that we take in faith is pleasing to the Lord, and it gives us strength for the next step.

R.H. “Not knowing where he was going”, Hebrews 11: 8, is faith, is it not?

E.J.H. Yes, and it says that

• “God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God”, Hebrews 11: 16 –

• speaking of those of faith and would we not like to be included in the number of those of whom God is not ashamed, when we know who He is, our God? He is not ashamed to be the God of those who walk in faith.

E.L.G.C. So, “faith is the substantiating of things hoped for”, Hebrews 11: 1.

• Does it centre in the glorious Person of the Lord Jesus?

• In the scriptures you have brought before us is it the Lord’s desire that the disciples might know Him as the One who was sufficient for every circumstance?

E.J.H. That is right. It is knowing Him, the Person, as being equal to every circumstance.

• One often thinks of the three young men in Daniel’s day. They said,
  • “our God … is able to deliver us”, Daniel 3: 17.

• They did not say, ‘He will deliver us out of the burning fiery furnace’ but they said,
  • “He will deliver us out of thy hand”,

• because if they had been burnt in the furnace they would have been for ever delivered out of the king’s hand.

• And it is a very good thing to be able to say, as believing it with all our hearts, that our God is able to solve every problem.

• If He keeps us waiting, it is only that we should know what it is to be still, believing in Him as able to do everything –
  • “with God all things are possible”, Matt. 19: 26

• – at a time when He may not appear to be doing anything.

J.B. Sometimes He does not come in and move and is the tendency to say, “Dost thou not care that we are perishing?”

E.J.H. Quite so.

H.B. Could you elaborate a little on what faith is?

E.J.H. Well, it speaks of faith as being the gift of God; Hebrews 11, as already remarked, says it is

• “the substantiating of things hoped for”;

• that is to say we have a link with God and that is outside the realm of what is natural and the natural man, and outside what is in accord with sight and sense.

• I think Mr. Raven remarked that if he said that there is a place called India and you believed it, that is not faith because you could go and prove it with the sight of your eyes.

• But faith means divine things are as real to you as if you could see them with your own eyes. So the Lord says,
  • “Blessed they who have not seen and have believed”, John 20: 29.

• So I would say simply it is the reality of divine things that sight and sense could never verify.

R.H. Did not Mr. Raven say it was light from God answered to?

E.J.H. Yes, exactly. So I think it is encouraging for us in our present circumstances to recognise and to believe with all our hearts – as being together with many, many exercises –

• that the Lord has a definite object in view, and it is He who says,
  • “Let us go over to the other side”.

• A certain journey is contemplated and the Lord is prepared to be with His people because He is the Author of the journey, we are not.

• The movement that has begun at the present time was not originated by any man or by any group of men.

• It is the Lord who has inaugurated it, and He will be with His people who move with Him, because He is the One who set on the movement,
  • and the more we realize that, the more restful we shall be when we anticipate that better and greater things are in mind for us.

R.H. Would the cushion be a characteristic of the boat?

E.J.H. Well, that suggests the Lord was in complete restfulness when they were disturbed and distressed, does it not? But it says that,

• “He was in the stern, sleeping on the cushion”.

• The stern is the place from which the boat is guided, is it not? So that although He was in restful circumstances yet He was in control of the situation.

R.H. “On the cushion”, as though that was one of the features of the boat. The cushion was there, would you not think?

E.J.H. Yes, just so.

G.B. I was thinking that as we move in faith – and God delights to see movements in faith – afterwards He gives us ample confirmation of it.

E.J.H. Well, that is faith, of course, as has been said,

• “not knowing where he was going”.

• That is faith; but we so often want things to be made plain beforehand.

• And again referring to our dear brethren, I am sure that a great many of them are so lacking in faith that their feeling is that if they could have their problems solved then they would move – but that is not faith.

• You have to move in answer to the light that is given, as has been said, whatever the consequences might be,

• but then, when you move in accord with the light given, you find that the consequences are very much better than you thought they would be.

R.H.C. “The God whom he believed, who quickens the dead, and calls the things which be not as being”, Romans 4: 17.

E.J.H. Yes, that is right. And

• “they take him with them as he was”.

• I think that is something for us to lay hold of, that we have to leave the Lord free, and we do not tell Him that we want to be relieved of all troubles and difficulties.

• We have to receive Him and then, knowing He is with us, leave to Him all the circumstances, not proposing what the Lord should do as it were.

C.C.M. I think we have been in danger of going to the bookshelf to find a way out in the ministry.

E.J.H. Well, I am quite sure that in all these matters, as one has often said and delights to say, the Lord helps simple people, and that is a great encouragement;

• so that it is not the gifted persons and the very intelligent and the very learned persons who get light for the path, it is simple people;

• and simple people have no difficulty about the scriptures. They do not want to add man’s imagination to the scriptures or take anything away or misinterpret them or twist them to their own end.

• The simple person believes the word that is written, that is all he wants,
  • “Those that go this way – even fools – shall not err therein”, Isaiah 35: 8.

• And that is why at the present time I think it is what we might speak of as the ordinary brothers and sisters who have taken a stand for the truth and who have acted in faith.

• It has been said many times over by all those who have led amongst us for many years that you can always trust the body of the saints.

• I think it is a very great comfort to simple brothers and sisters, as we may say, to have a sense of the Lord’s approval of what they have done.

• You may remember that the Pharisees’ answer to the common people following the Lord was, “Has any one of the rulers believed on him, or of the Pharisees?” John 7: 48.

• It is a remarkable statement, as much as to say, if the leaders have not believed on Him, well, the rank and file cannot be regarded as having a reliable judgment.

R.D.C. So are things brought down to our individual relations with the Lord, and is what you suggested at the beginning very vital and important, the inward conviction in each of our souls that the Lord has set the journey on?

E.J.H. Yes, we ought to have the inward consciousness that we have moved for the Lord’s sake and if we have He will certainly stand by us.

J.B. Would you say a word about the Lord being asleep, seemingly oblivious to their position?

E.J.H. Well, as we are like the disciples, when things get difficult we would like the Lord to come in quickly and solve all the problems;

• but it ought to be enough for us to have the assurance that He is with us and to leave with Him the time and the way for intervention,
  • and to be comforted all the time with the knowledge that He originated the journey.

• If they had originated it and got into these troubles they would have said, ‘Well, that is our own fault; that is the Lord’s judgment and discipline coming in upon us’.

E.L.G.C. Jude speaks of “him that is able to keep you without stumbling, and to set you with exultation blameless before his glory”.

• Would that be in line with what you have in mind as “the other side”, so to speak, and confidence in the Lord Jesus that He is well able to bring us through completely?

E.J.H. Certainly, and I think we might use the expression “the other side” to include the end of a certain exercise.

• We might think of “the other side” in its totality and finality as our going to be with the Lord when He comes for us and takes us to be with Himself.

• That will be “the other side”, but in the working out of certain truths and certain exercises we might speak of the Lord having a definite end in view,

• and we are to take the journey and arrive at the end that He has in mind for us, and we may be assured that if the Lord has something in mind to be reached, the enemy will do his best to prevent us from reaching it.

R.H.C. “The steps of the faith of our father Abraham”. His course was not just mapped out for him but there were many tests, were there not;

• and in these tests, when faith is answered, it is a very, very real matter – a strengthening matter built into the soul. Is that right?

E.J.H. Yes. The Lord has Himself indicated for example what the Supper means to Him,

• and if we do what is pleasing in His sight we shall certainly get a portion of blessing as well as having our affections revived, week by week; and also it provides a city of refuge.

J.B. It says here the Lord rebuked the wind. He did not rebuke the disciples.

E.J.H. It is very encouraging to see how tender the Lord is with His disciples and with us. In chapter 16

• He “reproached them with their unbelief and hardness of heart … and he said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the glad tidings to all the creation. He that believes and is baptised shall be saved”.

• Just think of the Lord sending unbelieving people into the world to preach the Gospel to make believers! But then the secret was
  • “the Lord working with them”;

• that was the secret. He does not give us up because we falter and fail. He goes on with us, but the more faith we have, the more blessing we get.

R.B. The Lord chooses the disciples. Would He not know that there was material there?

E.J.H. Certainly. You see the Lord said to Simon and Andrew in the beginning,

• “I will make you become fishers of men”, Mark 1: 17.

• It was not what they were or what they could make themselves. It was what the Lord could make out of them; so we need to be pliable in His hands, because He can make a person just what He pleases.

Well, if we go on to the next scripture, this is a little different setting because the Lord is not with them, and we can understand how that applies to where we are today.

• The Lord was with them in the first instance, in the boat with them, but here He is not with them;

• so it is essentially a matter of faith, but behind it again is the fact that the journey was set on by the Lord and that should have sufficed for the disciples.
  • “He compelled his disciples to go on board ship, and to go on before to the other side to Bethsaida”,

• a place named by the Lord. Now, if the Lord named the place at which they were to arrive, they would arrive. Many things might happen in the meantime but surely the will of the Lord will prevail.

R.G.B. Do you think the Lord would say to us at the moment,

• “in quietness and confidence shall be your strength”, Isaiah 30: 15?

E.J.H. Yes indeed. Quite so.

J.B. I do not like to take you back, but you have referred to some of our brethren who have drifted off to certain associations of men. Having done that, are we just to abandon them?

E.J.H. Well no, but when there is a definite desire to have a breaking of bread on the basis of the truth,

• it sorts out those who are coming, as to whether they are prepared to subscribe to the truth.

• Where the truth is held and the brethren are walking in the light of the truth of scripture that should be a rallying point for exercised persons.

• But you may have something particular in your mind.

J.B. Well, I have just got in mind places where there was no breaking of bread and some of our brethren have just drifted off into various settings.

• Are we to leave them, we might say, until God sovereignly operates, or are we at liberty to seek them as much as we can?

E.J.H. Well, one has often said, it is very easy and happy work to try to help a person who is exercised.

• But a person who is not exercised and wants to stay where he is, it may be of little avail to talk to them.

• The music and the dancing, you see, of Luke 15 was heard, and the elder son heard the music and dancing.

• He knew what was going on inside the house, and although his father pleaded with him he would not go in. He was not exercised as we say and he wanted to stay where he was.

• But I do not think for a moment that all those who have been scattered are going to remain scattered, because if they have any love for the Lord and a real understanding of the truth, it will not be long before they are disillusioned.

H.B. We would take every opportunity to give them an invitation.

E.J.H. Yes, certainly. Let them come where they might get help.

C.C.M. And the truth will set them free – John 8: 32.

E.J.H. That is just it. The father went out to the elder son and begged him to come in. He would not come in but the invitation was given.

• There is no reason why the invitation should not be given so that they might get help. Some are already disillusioned. So we do not want to consider that they have gone for good.

E.L.G.C. But rather seek to do them good as God has done for us. The Lord Jesus has done us good, and surely we can always be on that line.

• There is good ground for that, for the Lord Jesus was the One who went about doing good and are we not to do our brethren good as much as we can?

C.C.M. We once had sweet fellowship with them and there is a ground we can work on.

E.J.H. Yes. Persons claim to have withdrawn from iniquity and then link on with it in another form.

• I suppose it is because there has been a certain line of ministry that has been considered to be more elevated than other ministry
  • and there has been a constant presentation of one line of ministry to the exclusion of fundamentals.

• As a matter of fact, the fundamentals have more or less been despised as being ‘babyhood’.

• Someone once said to Mr. Darby, “Don’t you find it necessary constantly to go back to fundamentals?” and he replied, “Certainly not; I never leave them”.

R.H.C. Would you say also that possibly a great sorting out is going on at the present time and the Holy Spirit would join us in the truth in view of the Lord’s evident return?

E.J.H. Well, I think it is said that in Mr. Darby’s day when all kinds of people came out, it took 10 years to sort them out.

• One would not like to think that it is going to take as long as that, but all we have to do is to move in the truth personally and leave all the rest to the Lord.

• You see, when Mr. Darby came out there were titled people and professors and learned people.

• They all felt that God was in the movement and they wanted to be in it, but they were not prepared to stay because they had other prospects and other ambitions.

• It is easy to travel outwardly with the mass of the brethren without being inwardly with them and having the truth formed in one’s own soul.

R.H. I was wondering if priestliness and shepherd care is greatly called for at the present time? I was thinking of the priest in relation to weakness, but as keeping knowledge as well.

E.J.H. I am quite sure that is so. It is a very real matter. You have only to read Ezekiel 34 and see what God says about those who were not shepherds;

• God goes over in minute detail what the shepherds had not done. It is a long, long list too and a very searching list.

• And then He says what He will do. Here in this chapter, the Lord has compelled His disciples to get into the ship.

• He is upon the mountain, as He is tonight, above, ever making intercession for us, and we are left here, but we have been set together by the Lord.

• He has a certain object in view in setting us together, and the enemy will do his utmost to discourage and divide us if he possibly can.

• Now you could not think of these disciples as being constrained to get into this ship and go to the other side and then half of them rowing one way and half of them rowing the other way.

J.B. It says, “and seeing them labouring in rowing”. Is that something very pleasing to heaven to see the saints united in seeking to make progress?

E.J.H. Yes, quite so. He did not see half of them rowing one way and half of them rowing the other. They were all rowing together. It was hard labour and the Lord takes account of their labours.

G.B. Would you say a little more as to this matter of prayer? Is it not intimately linked with faith?

• It has been mentioned earlier, I think, in connection with Peter. The Lord says,
  • “I have besought for thee that thy faith fail not”,

• and here He sent them off and departed into the mountain to pray. He would have them primarily on His mind at that time, would He?

E.J.H. Oh, certainly; and that is where our comfort is. The Lord is not with us physically and visibly but He is still with us in the sense that He is interceding for us.

• He is on high and He knows what our struggles are, and He will come in and give all the needed support in the exercises.

R.D.C. “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?” Romans 8: 35. That is His present love for us, on high, is it not?

E.J.H. Yes it is, indeed. Then, you see, the Lord comes to them and they think it is an apparition.

• That is another thing we need to lay hold of, that the Lord has an infinite variety of ways of coming in.

• We cannot prescribe to Him how He is to come in to solve the difficulty, and we cannot go by precedent because the Lord is so great and so wonderful that He has a thousand and one ways of coming in.

• We want to realize this and believe it. So that we do not expect Him to come in in the same way every time.

C.C.M. His grace is sufficient.

E.J.H. Yes indeed.

R.H. It is wonderful that He came “in another form”.

E.J.H. Yes, “He was manifested in another form” to certain of them later. This shows what the Lord is teaching the disciples, and would teach us.

• Most of us have already some knowledge through past experiences of the ways the Lord can come in in certain matters and certain difficulties. That is intended to be built into our souls.

• If He could come in in the past, He is able to come in at the present time, and we should not think that the present situation is without solution.

R.H. So, it says, “Is Jehovah impatient? are these his doings?” Micah 2: 7. It takes some learning, do you think?

E.J.H. Yes. So the Lord comes in a form in which He had never disclosed Himself to the disciples, and it was so new and unprecedented that they did not recognise it was the Lord.

E.L.G.C. So that although this test in this incident was much more severe

• – it was in the middle of the night, and some of us have also been tested in a much more severe way than ever before –

• is it that we might learn that He is able to walk upon the sea and is in complete control of everything?

E.J.H. If the subject of their conversation in the boat had been to review the different ways and different forms in which the Lord had come in in the past they might have said,

• ‘Well of course, this is not the first boat we have been in, and you know how the Lord came in and you know how He came in in feeding the 5,000.

• ‘We did not think there was a solution to the problem but He had one – moreover we are not here of our own choice and the Lord has said we are to go to the other side and He will certainly see us through’.

• I would suggest they would have looked out on the water and somebody would have said, ‘Why, here He comes!’

R.H. There has never been anything like this before. The Lord has always come in up to now but will He come in now? That indicates our lack of faith, do you not think?

E.J.H. Yes, quite so.

H.B. We find the Lord here is in command of the position. Do you think the Lord at the present time is in command of the situation which exists and what is happening among the brethren?

E.J.H. Certainly. Nothing is going beyond His control; and the Lord is allowing certain things to happen with an end in view; and we want to be restful

• and to be sure that whatever anybody else may do or propose to do, we are going to do that which is right and pleasing to the Lord and leave all else.

R.D.C. I think that makes it simple, does it not? The Lord’s will is what is to govern a Christian.

• Mr. Darby said, did he not, that obedience is the only exercise, save praise, of life to God?

E.J.H. That is right. So it says here,

• “and they were exceedingly beyond measure astonished in themselves and wondered; for they understood not through the loaves: for their heart was hardened”.

• How wonderfully He had come in in the past and yet it had not been built in to their souls!

Then in chapter 8 we find that the ship is again before us and the Pharisees are contending with the Lord, disputing against Him, and tempting Him; they wanted to see a sign.

• They wanted the Lord to perform a miracle expressly for their benefit so that professedly they should believe on Him; and that is where we so often are;
  • we think the Lord ought to do something spectacular to demonstrate that He is with us.

• But the Lord does not want us to be looking for signs and miracles to have the assurance that He is with us.

• It is enough to have the assurance in our own hearts, and the joy of greeting the Lord and greeting one another is quite sufficient – we do not want miracles to confirm us every day of our lives.

E.L.G.C. Do we get the confirmation of moving in faith, afterwards?

• I have heard some say that they expect a landslide and that when that comes along they might be prepared to make a move, or if such and such a prominent brother got help.

• But is the Lord not looking for us individually to put our confidence in Him?

E.J.H. Well, that is very clear. One has often said that one believes a good many of those who have been and are in the lead, have been conscious of a time when they had to decide whether they would go on in persistence or go out in faith.

C.C.M. The fear of man has brought a snare.

E.J.H. It has indeed, with many.

C.C.M. And we should feel that – they are dear ones.

E.J.H. Yes, quite so. So the Lord warns them, you see, here, as He would warn us, about the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.

• The leaven of the Pharisees, as we see in the passage, is that they are not prepared to believe unless they get a constant repetition of something miraculous. The Lord said,
  • “A sign shall in no wise be given”.

• The Lord does not give signs and miracles just to minister to our curiosity or lack of faith.

• The leaven of Herod, I think, is worldliness; and the Lord wanted His disciples and wants us to be entirely free of these two elements; for they creep in so very easily: lack of faith, and worldliness.

R.D.C. If the Lord has delivered us there should be concern to be more unworldly than ever in devotion to Himself.

• There is a danger of our laying hold of the liberty that is given us to think that we are freer to do certain things that we were not free to do before.

E.J.H. Yes, well that is the sorting out, is it not? Scripture says,

• “As a man thinketh in his heart so is he”, Proverbs 23: 7.

• Some have had these things in their heart, and they are now coming out in their lives.

J.B. You have got something to say about this one loaf?

E.J.H. Well, I suggest that the one loaf would indicate two things. The Lord speaks to them about what they had gathered up when He fed the 5,000 and when He fed the 4,000.

• They knew exactly how much; that five loaves had fed 5,000 and seven loaves had fed 4,000; and yet they now felt that one loaf was not enough for 12!

• It shows, as the Lord goes over the ground, how little they had learned.

• But I would say also that the spiritual suggestion is that that one loaf is the Lord. He is the Bread that is there available and if He is there with them, they have everything that they need.

E.L.G.C. Would you tell us what the antidote is for this hardness of heart? What would soften our affections?

E.J.H. Well, there are many things that one would suggest.

• If you go to Luke 7 you find that the Lord commends the woman, a forgiven sinner for the depth of feeling and love on account of the fact, that being a great sinner all her sins were forgiven and the Lord says,
  • “for she loved much”.

• It is an indication that every forgiven sinner should love the Lord much. That is what is contemplated,

• but I think in regard to faith it is to have this belief so firmly settled in our souls, as the Lord says “with God all things are possible” and you never let that go however dark and confused things may seem. The Lord says,
  • “with men it is impossible but not with God; for all things are possible with God”, Mark 10: 27.

• But then the Lord does say,
  • “All things are possible to him that believes”, Mark 9: 23.

• The Lord does not say, ‘Everything will come to the one who believes what he asks for’, but they are possible to the one that believes.

R.H.C. I have thought of Elijah’s experience quite a bit and what he expected to see done and how it was answered at the end by the soft gentle voice. Do you think that we have something to learn at the present time from that simile?

E.J.H. Yes. The Lord brought to bear on him the three greatest forces in the universe; the wind and the earthquake and the fire.

• But He was not in them, and one has observed that the greatest miracle in the Lord’s life is recorded by all four Gospel writers – and was the only miracle recorded by all four Gospel writers – the feeding of the 5,000.

• And we might have thought that a good deal of scripture would be given to that miracle considering it was the greatest.

• But if you add up the verses given to it you find it is only 33 verses in four Gospels;
  • but if you add up the verses given to the sufferings and death of Jesus you will find it is nearly 400 verses;

• as if the Spirit of God would say that if you cannot be moved by the sufferings of Christ to be attached to Him, then no miracle will ever move you.

C.C.M. I was thinking of hardness of heart. We should be tender-hearted to all believers, especially those with whom we meet and walk, and those who help us.

E.J.H. Well, it is love towards all the saints – that is, all the redeemed.

• It has been said, alas, “love towards all the saints” means those who are in fellowship – a terrible thing.

• All the redeemed are the saints and we are on no higher ground than they. We have all cost the Lord the same.

• The children of Israel had each to bring half a shekel as their redemption money: the rich could not bring more and the poor could not bring less; everybody stood on the same foundation at the same cost.

J.B. I wondered if the loaf carried something of those suggestions with it. It is a wonderful thing to keep the saints together in your heart – love to all the saints. We are not looking at them in a partisan or a sectarian way.

R.H. So that “we all partake of that one loaf”, 1 Corinthians 10: 17, would have a bearing on it, would it?

E.J.H. Yes, it is the oneness and the unity, either in Christ or in the saints.

C.C.M. “Having heard of the faith” – it was active – “in the Lord Jesus … and the love which ye have towards all the saints”, Ephesians 1: 15.

• Those of the Lord’s people with whom we are not able to walk should know that we do love them and we value them.

E.J.H. Yes. It is one of the things that has been quite misunderstood.

• You can have love towards all the saints and every believer, but that does not mean that you have to walk with them. When it is a question of walking,
  • “Shall two walk together except they be agreed?” Amos 3: 3.

• Love in scripture is demonstrated in service, not in walk necessarily, as it says,
  • “By love serve one another”, Galatians 5: 13.

• That is how love comes into expression.

• We often refer to Abraham and Lot. You see Abraham was a heavenly man and Lot was an earthly-minded man. Well, they loved each other but they did not walk together.

• If they had been walking together, so to speak, Abraham would have been talking about heaven and Lot would have been talking about earth. There would not have been much fellowship in that.

R.R. So one of the first principles set out by Paul after mentioning the body in Romans 12 is,

• “Let love be unfeigned”

• but he enlarges on that by adding “abhorring evil”. Is that right?

E.J.H. Yes. So it says also in Peter that you are to add to brotherly love, love.

• But it is a great mistake to think that to love a fellow-believer means that you have got to show it by walking with him.

• You see, there are believers who say, ‘Well, if you are not going to walk with us, you are breaking the greatest Christian commandment of all – we are told to love one another’.

• But if you go to the end of Matthew the Lord says,
  • “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have enjoined you. And behold, I am with you”,

• and nothing whatsoever is said about love.

J.B. Mr. Raven said you would go with every Christian as far as you could but you may have to leave them at the church door.

E.J.H. Yes, that is so. Mr. Coates was, of course, always a very, very warmhearted man in regard to all saints, and he said ‘if you meet a fellow-believer you want to see how long you can agree and not how quickly you can differ’.