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Introduction: Please read Introduction for important information. Central Hall, London – July 26, 1960 Central Hall, London – February 21, 1961 Alexandra Palace, London – July 12, 1962 Key to Initials • Previous |
| INTRODUCTION |
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| These notes are not presented as 'ministry' or as being 'authoritative',
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The following notes of meetings convened for information and counsel as to the work of the Stow Hill Depot were widely circulated at the time.
It should be kept in mind that these meetings took place after the ruthless purge of 1959-1960, and —— was recognised as undisputed leader in ministry and administration.
The 1960 meeting was dominated by the need to do penance and to purge itself of what were considered as past errors:
The 1961 meeting was largely occupied with whether the 1951 hymn book should be revised,
The 1962 meeting was more concerned with the publication of ministry, and methods of distribution.
Much to cause humiliation, shame and sorrow took place among the brethren and with regard to the Depot from 1953 to 1959, and especially from 1960 to 1970.
G.A.R.
| CENTRAL HALL, LONDON July 26, 1960 |
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| The Methodist Central Hall had been used for special meetings for many years. |
There were about 2,800 present. After the hymn Mr. Gardiner prayed.
Matters were outlined in the following order.
1. J.T.'s Ministry: The status of the Old Series and the New Series printing was reviewed in detail.
2. F.E.R.'s Ministry: The status of the New Series printing was reviewed in detail.
3. Current Ministry: Mr. Gardiner enquired what provision should be made for the publication of current ministry, for the foregoing would keep them quite busy and not leave room for much else.
4. C.A.C.'s Ministry: Nothing is in mind for printing at the moment. It is felt that all or nearly all of this ministry is available.
| Since 1971, Kingston Bible Trust has published several additional volumes of C.A.C.'s ministry. |
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5. Gospel Magazines: These are to be discontinued, with the exception of 'The Word Proclaimed'. The level of these magazines was referred to as hardly in keeping, and it was felt that gospel tracts could take the place of these in respect of outsiders to whom many gospel magazines were sent.
6. New York Readings: Brethren were encouraged to read these more. Present circulation of magazines (per month):
Ques. What is Mr. [David] Burgess' position at the Depot?
Ans. General management of the Depot under the trustees. He does not look after the stock, but he reads all that is printed and is very helpful in pointing out things to the trustees. The trustees – or at least one of them – read everything before it is printed, so trustees are primarily responsible. Mr. Burgess also does proof reading.
7. Financial Position: Quite satisfactory at present. Books are always sold at cost or under and the commercial element is kept out altogether. Contributions from meetings are used to reduce price of books. Cost of books include management overheads, of course.
Ques. What should we do with books of those now out of fellowship?
Ans. It is a question of what the book contains. If there is error we should get rid of the book.
The brethren felt that Stow Hill should have made it known that Mr. Myles had withdrawn his book.
Ques. As to 'The Way Everlasting', what should we do with the book?
—— We sold out our stock in N.Y. and are not ordering any more.
The book is of value, it was said, and a brother from the body of the hall asked what was wrong with the dialogues, quoting J.N.D.'s use of it. Mr. G. H. S. Price was very quick in replying that he had judged the use of this to be wrong and unsuitable, it had been confessed in assembly as such and the matter was closed. He mentioned that what beloved J.N.D. had used in the establishment of the truth was one thing and he should not have presumed to copy this.
8. Calendars: The reason for discontinuing the printing etc. of these by Stow Hill four years ago, viz. that it did not properly fall within the scope of the Depot and it was said that Stow Hill had still taken some oversight as regards the type of backs in order that a right standard might be maintained.
9. J.N.D. Bible, New Edition: All the notes have been checked and those which cannot be definitely traced to J.N.D.'s original notes, or other writings, have been cut out.
10. Index to J.T.'s Ministry: Question was asked whether work should proceed with an index – and while it is realised that an index is far from complete before all of J.T.'s ministry is reprinted etc., it was felt that the work should be carried on gradually all the time.
11. Monthly Magazines: Some feel that they should be discontinued altogether in the present form and that anything of value should be made available in pamphlet for, e.g., the reprint of 'Let not the assembly be charged …' so that what is current can be made available at the earliest opportunity without having to wait for each month to produce a booklet of say 20 pages of ministry regardless of the quality available no immediate change is in mind.
| CENTRAL HALL, LONDON February 21, 1961 |
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| The Methodist Central Hall had been used for special meetings for many years. |
A.J.G. This meeting has in mind matters that stand connected with the work of the Stow Hill Depot, and the first thing that arises for consideration is as to
It is fully recognised, of course, that it is only ten years since the last revision, and that certain of our dear brethren, on the Continent, for instance, have only had their books for eight years or less, owing to the necessity for translation.
Along with this general question as to whether or not there should be a revision, arises the question also as to
—— Well, I thought so, in view of certain things that have come up in regard to the truth, as to whether certain hymns are just suitable in their present form, as well as the matter you mention as to those no longer walking with us.
A.J.G. Yes.
—— I suppose the revisions were made as the truth required it. The last revision, of course, had the great matter of the Spirit especially in mind. It would seem that the Lord has adjusted certain things as to the time for the worship of the Spirit in the assembly meeting, whether we might see that that is so.
J.S.E. There has been, in the course of our teaching, emphasis on the necessity of being simple and brief in our address to divine Persons, and perhaps we are not capacitated to address in worship more than One at a time. Would that bear on your exercise Mr. ——?
—— Yes, I would say so, and that we keep in mind, of course, that the full thought of God involves the Trinity. That is not weakened in what we are saying. The Scriptures seem to present Christ as worshipped by Himself, the Spirit before us by Himself, then the Father, in view of God finally.
C.H. Included in that first point you make, I suppose, would be hymns that will need to be composed expressing present truths as they have been brought to us, as well as modification of existing hymns?
—— The present truth? Perhaps you would say what you mean in a specific way.
C.H. I was thinking particularly of the dearth of hymns that would be suitable for address to the Lord in a worshipful way at the time of the Supper or immediately afterwards.
—— I would think that is right. We see the Lord's place in regard to everything. It is essential to understand the whole truth of the revelation. The Spirit of God had no intention of setting aside the Lord's glory as the One who has effected everything. It would seem that He has helped us to see the unique place of Christ, in the economy He is introducing us to everything.
A.W.G.T. Would what you are just saying about the Lord's glory effecting everything be specially emphasised in the opening verses of John's gospel? Would that be what was in your mind at all?
—— That brings it out. Also, I suppose, Hebrews 1, Colossians 1, and no doubt other scriptures. I think it is to be discerned by us that Scripture presents things in that way; Christ is the theme of every scripture. His glory, therefore, is shining out as He comes in, either as presented in Luke's gospel or in the others.
A.J.G. Is that borne out by what we have in Hebrews 10, quoting from Psalm 40, that His language as coming into the world is, "Lo, I come to do thy will, O God", and His body is referred to as prepared in that connection? It involves great personal glory of Christ, does it not, that He can speak of Himself in that way as coming to effectuate all God's will?
—— We would have nothing were it not for that. He has come into this condition, or had come into this condition of flesh and blood. Everything depends on the incarnation.
A.J.G. It goes on to say, "by which will we have been sanctified", so that we are brought in there. But it goes much further than merely securing those who compose the assembly, although it includes that.
—— That is important, is it not, to keep in mind the thoughts of God as to Israel and other things? God has a provisional order of things now, in which He is working out His counsels. Then He will resume His relations in other ways. But Christ stands in regard of it all.
A.W.G.T. Did you say Christ in relation to all things?
—— He stands in relation to all, that is, whether it be the assembly or God resuming other things that He had taken up before the provisional time in which we are.
J.M. How do you think that that should affect our praises?
—— Oh, I suppose the light of every dispensation should affect us, in regard to what we have to say to Christ.
J.S.E. Coming back to the hymn book, and pursuing what you said, do you think hymn No. 75 is illustrative of what you said?
—— The second verse, 'Yet wider praise in Zion waits for Thee'?
J.S.E. Yes.
—— Yes, so the Lord could go into that at any time. In the provisional time He is not doing so. He is in relation to the assembly; of course, having everything else under Him, which is a very extensive matter to think of. But everything is under Christ, whether it be in relation to the assembly or other things.
J.M. In Romans 15 it speaks of "For this cause I will confess to thee among the nations, and will sing to thy name". That would be the provisional thing, do you think?
—— Yes, the provisional time. It is not to minimise it by using that word, but to show what God is working out just now in our dispensation.
P.L. And the praise which He will finally ingather in coming glory is in intelligent sympathy and love to find expression in the assembly now in her praise to Him?
—— So that the assembly is the custodian of everything, I suppose. "Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples", Isa. 8: 16. Everything is kept, so to speak, in the assembly in view of God resuming these things.
Wm.H. Would that be borne out in Colossians 2, where he desires that the saints should be filled with all understanding "to the full knowledge of the mystery of God; in which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge"? Would that embrace the whole domain of divine operations?
—— It would seem so. It is a great view of things that we can have as we think of the other glories of Christ. The brethren could say what they think about Scripture supporting the thought that one divine Person is worshipped at one time, in view, of course, of the great final matter of God. That has been a matter of controversy, but the Lord has sustained the truth as to it, which has always been there.
F.L.F. Does it bear on the matter of the Lord having control in the service? If in one hymn we are carried over to another divine Person, does that in a sense take it out of the Lord's hands as to what He may bring in?
—— I have felt that at time in certain hymns, that turn away from the Lord, so to speak, not meaning to do it, but that is just one's experience. Do the Scriptures support what we are saying as to one divine Person being before us in worship, in view of the Trinity which, of course, is the Father, the Son and the Spirit?
J.T.S. Perhaps you would indicate some scripture for us. It would help us greatly if you would.
—— Well, in the New Testament we have, of course, the Lord in Matthew as a babe, a child, worshipped. We have the man in John 9, who worships the Lord. We have the end of Matthew, where the eleven worship the Lord. Perhaps other scriptures, such as the ark in the Old Testament, the passover, the lamb, Isaac, and many others in the Old Testament.
P.L. And the doxology of Paul, for instance, "the Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever, Amen".
—— Yes.
J.M. Peter at the end of the second epistle, says, "the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and to the day of eternity".
—— Well, Scripture, it seems to me, supports this thought. I have thought so.
A.W. Is it not interesting in this connection that Peter and Paul close their epistles with a doxology to the Lord Jesus? Peter was quoted, but also Paul, in 2 Timothy 4: 18, closes with a doxology to the Lord Jesus.
P.v.d.B. Would the reference in Psalm 45, "he is thy Lord, and worship thou him", show that worship is to that divine Person in the light of what He is in His own Person.
—— He is the Creator, of course, by Him everything was created. It is Christ in that sense, it is that Person.
P.v.d.B. We do not seem to have many hymns addressed to the Lord in that light for use in the early part of the service.
—— I am afraid we do not know the book too well, but perhaps what you say is right.
G.H.S.P. You referred just now to the truth as to the Spirit underlying the 1951 revision. The truth as to the Sonship of Christ led to the 1932 revision, which was a feature of His Manhood. Do you think the truth of Christ's deity might provide the basis for any further adjustment now?
—— Well, that is very suggestive, I am sure. John's gospel that has been referred to perhaps would help us there, in these days when we feel our position, but the Lord is showing Himself that He is doing things.
R.G.B. In that connection, at the beginning of Revelation, John falls at His feet as dead, in the presentation of the judicial glory of Christ.
—— That, of course, is very important just now, as to the Lord's judicial appearing.
J.S.E. Is there any point in the fact that of the four gospels the use of the words, singing a hymn, is in the two pressure ones, and in Paul's letters you get it in Ephesians as animated by the Spirit, "singing and chanting with your heart to the Lord", and in the Colossian letter, to which reference has been made, with Christ in charge, "singing with grace in your hearts to God"? And then in Revelation the four-and-twenty elders sing a new song relative to what is due to the Lamb. Would we get any indication from the way the Scriptures speak of singing?
—— I suppose singing is one of the greatest things in Scripture. God has created it, so to speak; it is what has been misused, of course, in the world. God has singing in mind. Therefore the great matter of direction is in Scripture about it.
W.C.P. Do we gather from your reference at Park Street recently to Exodus 15 that the experience we have of the Lord in conflict would be an element that enters into our praise worshipfully?
—— So that the great conflict that Christ went through is to be in mind in regard of all conflict.
W.C.P. Especially seen would you say, in John's gospel?
—— I would think so. It is where the Lord has, so to speak, to bring out His deity, in chapter 8 of John. I would think in any crisis that is what happens. The Lord comes in Himself and shows us what is going on.
A.W.G.T. Would that be seen in a unique way in Psalm 22, the Lord praising after His sufferings?
—— Yes, the assembly, that is the means, the Lord singing in the midst of the assembly.
A.J.G. I think we sometimes feel the need of a suitable hymn to employ in the worship of the Spirit at the appropriate point in the service, but would it be right to feel that the Lord does not intend that there should be an extensive part of the service devoted to the worship of the Spirit?
—— I would think that. In fact, in regard to Himself also, whether He means us to be too extensive in regard to our worship of Him, because the main thought in His mind is to reach the Father. The Father seeks worshippers.
A.J.G. I think it is important to keep that in mind, because there is a tendency fairly often for a large part of the service to be devoted to the Lord, but really if we were more in touch with the Lord's own feelings we would be more ready to move with Him to the Father.
—— Well, all the help we have had in these various revisions, there have been these matters that we have mentioned, and no doubt the Spirit of God has in mind maturity in the saints as we go on, so that we should be conscious of some mature thoughts about what we are saying, as to the time the Lord would have us worship Him, the time He would bring before us these extensive glories that He has, then to show the special glory, so to speak, in relation to the assembly, meaning, I would think, His headship in regard to it.
D.C.C. Would you say something about the Lord in His headship?
—— I do not think the Lord would have us tarry too long on the point. But it is there. That is, if He is to be worshipped as Head it would be in relation to His Godhead, I would think; not in relation to what He is in relation to the assembly.
P.L. The reference to His deity particularly in the epistle to the Colossians bears on His relation as Head universally.
—— Yes, the distinctive glory then coming to the assembly in His headship. It would not seem that we should enter into worship then.
P.L. You mean that if the Lord is on our side He would have in mind leading us to the Father worshipfully?
—— Well, in regard to worship, I would think. But then the matter of His relations with us are often perhaps not understood much, because He is Head of the body, He has got a body and He is the Head of it. But the bride, the great thought of the bride, enters into that position. It is the bride, I suppose, that the Lord has as peculiarly answering to His affections.
A.W.G.T. I think you said something to the effect that headship in that connection is more a question of love on our side. Is that right?
—— I think it is a question of the Lord being Head of His body. It is not a question of His Godhead then. It is more what He is in relation to us as Man, I judge, therefore what is suitable between Christ and the assembly, as we have said, at that time would come up.
A.McG. Is your thought that that glorious Man is Head for God in regard of every matter?
—— Therefore what He is on God's side is one great distinctive line of things, in which there is plenty of room for our instruction, and in fact in every phase of the service we can speak of phases and yet we do not want ritual. It is a question therefore of the intelligence of the saints that is in mind.
F.L.F. Is there a special need of hymns addressed to the Lord as amongst us? Many refer to His glory on the throne, or above, or in heaven. But is there a need of hymns addressed to Him in His glory in the midst?
—— That has often been noted, to refer to the Lord as on the throne when actually He is amongst us. Of course, He is ever on the throne, but the great mystery is that when He comes amongst us it is not a question of speaking to Him as if He is on the throne, because He is always on the throne. I think the point is that when the Lord is amongst us, those hymns about the throne are not just the ones to bring in.
J.S.E. Is No. 84 a good illustration of that, particularly verses 2 and 3?
—— Yes.
A.McG. Would you say something about Dr. Elliott's hymn No. 199, as bearing on the Lord's deity and His Manhood, at the same time?
—— A greatly-used hymn, is it not? Have you anything to find wrong in it?
A.McG. No, I have not. I thought it helped to illustrate the two sides of the truth.
A.J.G. Is not the answer to that that we are not exactly rigid and hidebound in the assembly, but that we pass easily by the Spirit from one point to another?
—— I thought so. It starts. 'Lord Jesus Christ, our living Head'. Well, that is true. Then the second verse,
There does not seem to be any jolting between the two verses, does there? It is His Humanity we refer to. It seems all right to refer to that. But it is a question of what the writer is coming into in those two verses, 2 and 3. I do not think the first verse hinders us from proceeding to the great thought that the writer has got in mind, that He is God.
J.M. Is the theme not in the first verse?
—— Yes. I suppose you have found that hymn, Mr. Gardiner, is one of the most used.
A.J.G. It is very much used.
—— It proceeds right into the matter of the Lord's relations with the assembly. It would not do therefore to go back after we have come to the thought of His relations with the assembly.
J.M. You mean go back to His Godhead glory?
—— Yes. If the Lord is leading, of course, the hymn helps us in the leading of the Lord; if the hymn is right the Lord would lead that way, I suppose, and we would be seen now in relation with the Lord as Man. (v.4).
A.C.C. Is verse 5 suitable to sing just then?
—— Well, there is latitude, I would think, for what is there. We could say that to the Lord, I suppose, in the marital relation. Why could we not bring that in? 'Great source of wisdom, power and food'. But I do not suppose your thought, Mr. Gardiner, was that we could go over all the hymns.
A.J.G. No, that was not the thought! One has noticed in one or two hymns that have been composed as addressed to the Spirit as the Spirit of adoption, in answer to the desire there was at the time of the last revision that there should be more hymns to the Spirit, that there are just one or two hymns that seem to base our approach to the Father entirely or almost entirely on the Spirit's service to us and leave out of account that it is through Christ by the Spirit that we have access to the Father. We almost lose sight of the word of the Lord. No one comes to the Father unless by Me.
—— That should certainly be something for us to consider. It is through Christ. The great point is how everything has come through Him.
A.J.G. Yes.
H.J.M. Could you say anything as to those hymns which address the Spirit and then the Father, as to their suitability in view of what you have said about addressing one Person?
—— Well, I think that would apply. It would seem that the Spirit is so great that we ought to be occupied with Him fully, and let it really affect our souls, that it is so. Because the great matter of access, as we have said, is by Him, meaning that access is in the Spirit. You want to get that firmly into your mind, that it is so not only through Christ but access by the Spirit. It would seem then that the address to the Spirit would be far more effective in us if we kept that in mind and had Him before us, distinctly.
J.S.E. Have not the last ten years disclosed the peculiar development in the understanding and the feelings of the brethren which bring into relief the need of re-arranging some of these hymns? It was said, was it not, at the time the hymn book was issued, that the truth itself is always ahead of anything that is written about it, because the truth is developed in persons?
—— I suppose we can look back over the conflicts and see that in connection with the great truths before, especially as to the truth of eternal life, how much enters into the conflict. The question is whether the saints are fully in the gain of that conflict, or the question of sonship. Everything is through Christ, and therefore the need to get that firmly in our minds. But then too access to the Father is a great spiritual matter, a matter of experience really.
J.S.E. Is that to emphasise that the Father is the Object in that setting? Then both Christ and the Spirit are mediatorially on our side? Is that how it stands in your mind?
—— Yes. We must ever keep in mind 'through Him'. It is the Lord's leadership, but access is really a question of how we are now moving to understand things, experience, that really God is a Spirit. The Father is therefore immediately, we might say, to come into view, but the Spirit to be before us in the distinctiveness of what He does, and what He has done.
G. In view of the exercise for brevity in the service, would there be a need for what is condensed? One was thinking of Miriam's reply in Exodus 15, where the matter is condensed in two verses.
—— You get the idea there in that part, so to speak, that refers to Christ as God. It has been, of course, advanced that that was so far as the state went, but still there are other things, too, and brevity would bring that out that that point is in your mind. Christ is God, that is a short statement, and I would not think the Lord would mean us to extend it too much, because there is so much to go over, and brevity is what is essential.
H.W. Hymn No. 136, the last line but one, of verse 1, 'Who, now dwelling in Thy bosom'. Does not John's gospel teach us "who is in the bosom of the Father"? Is there the limitation of time in the word 'now'?
L.G.B. You are referring to the fact that the Lord in His Manhood here was dwelling in the bosom of the Father, as well as at the present time, and that the word 'now' rather limits it to the present time and excludes His Manhood here?
H.W. Yes, that is what I thought.
—— Oh, I thought the word 'now' included both. I do not think there was anything else in mind but that. The word 'now' is, Christianity is Christ as he was down here, of course, and personally and in His place in the Father's affections; there is no change where He is.
Is your thought, Mr. Gardiner, the brethren should send in more hymns, or have we got enough hymns?
A.J.G. If is thought that there should be a revision, I have no doubt that the revisers would be glad to incorporate in any collection of hymns any new hymns that were distinctively good or obviously met a need. As regards the total number of hymns, I should not think we need more than 480! Would you?
—— I would say we need much less than that, from what we use.
A.J.G. On the whole the hymns are fairly generally used. I do not think there would be found to be more than possibly fifty that are very rarely or hardly ever used. While we want the best hymns, of course, I suppose it is well that there should be hymns that adequately express the state of soul in which we are. I mean we are not always on the top note, are we? And therefore hymns that, while not surrendering the truth, represent where the saints are at a particular time, have their value, do you think?
—— I am sure they do. The only point is, do we need so many? They are all good hymns, I suppose. There may be some exceptions to that, but the time spent on them before was quite detailed, and the hymns are fairly substantial throughout. The thing is, why we do not use more of them, and I would say it is because we do not know the book.
D.R. Could you help us, please, as to the inclusion of hymns in the present book which are addressed in the first person singular? No. 286 is one example.
A.J.G. That particular one, if I may venture to answer, is a hymn that is suitable in the gospel, and I think hymns on the individual note are at times valuable in the gospel. But could we get a little help as to what principles are to govern us in this matter, as to how hymns written by authors who are still alive but are sorrowfully no longer with us are to be regarded?
—— Would not the matter of righteousness come in there, whether we could rightly sing hymns of brethren that we now regard as under discipline?
A.J.G. You mean that the hymn cannot fail to be identified with the author of it? I think J.T. pointed out, did he not, at the time of the last revision, referring to Genesis 4, that it says, "Jehovah looked upon Abel, and on his offering; and upon Cain, and on his offering, he did not look". The offerer was thus identified with the offering. Is that a principle that should have weight with us in this matter?
—— I thought so.
A.W.G.T. Would the fact, too, that many of the psalms have the authors on them support what has been said?
—— Identifying the name with the offering.
A.W.G.T. Yes.
—— Ezekiel 18: 24 has been referred to in connection with righteousness. "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness". That scripture would certainly apply, I would think.
A.J.G. I think it has a bearing on it, I quite agree.
G.H.S.P. Would you distinguish between a hymn written by one under discipline and earlier ministry by one under discipline?
—— I do not see any difference.
G.H.S.P. I ask the question because at the last meeting in this hall on the Depot we had sorrowfully to withdraw certain ministry in which there was something defective, but earlier ministry by the same authors, in which there was not felt to be anything defective, remained. I wondered whether there was some difference between that and a hymn where we commit the brethren to sing something.
—— We are not going to print any more, are we, of these ministries you are speaking of?
G.H.S.P. No.
R.S. Do you think that 1 Chronicles 25 would have any bearing on it? It says, "All these were under the direction of their fathers Asaph, Jeduthun and Heman, for song in the house of Jehovah, with cymbals, lutes and harps, for the service of the house of God, under the direction of the king. And the number of them, with their brethren that were instructed in the songs of Jehovah, all of them skilful, was two hundred and eighty-eight". I wondered if this matter of being under the direction of the king might give a clue to what we are saying. If there is disregard of the Lord's authority, are we right in making use of what is available?
—— "Under the direction of the king".
R.S. Yes, that is what I thought.
—— That is what we want now, is it not? We want the Lord's mind.
R.G.B. Does the question of whether the author is living or dead make a difference?
—— I would think so. Death settles matters, I would think.
Wm.H. How would the next chapter, 1 Chronicles 26 [vv. 26-27], bear on the matter, in view of the dedicated things?
—— I was just noting what Mr. Stott was saying about the King. The Lord would come into that now, that is, the King. It would not be David, and of course, when Solomon actually had to do with it they were not there. [2 Chr. 5: 1]
F.L.F. Would you say a word as to your remarks in the Notes of Readings in New York I think something to this effect, that you did not look up who the author was, that that was no part of the service? Would you say something further about that?
—— All I had in mind was that the hymn book was made up. We trusted the ones who did it that the hymns were all right, and as long as the book is in existence I would think we would be governed by it. That is all. We should all do the same thing. Otherwise we would be doing different things. It would seem that we ought to use the book until it is replaced.
G.A.W. If the names are on the head of some of the psalms, might not the names be attached to the hymns?
—— Would it not make the writer too prominent to have his name on the hymn?
G.A.W. What would you say about the names being on the psalms?
—— It would seem that the hymn book is not to make anybody prominent. It is rather that Christ is to be before us, I would say.
E.R.K. The psalms are inspired. We could not say that of the hymn book, could we?
J.S.E. The remarks in the Notes of Readings in New York, I think I could safely say, were a great help to many of us. One's own exercise was that one had some reserve in singing a hymn that was known to be written by a person who had been dealt with, and the remarks were a help to oneself. The book is in our hands, and it has its authority in that sense.
A.W.G.T. Alongside of that I would say that I have a very great difficulty in giving out a hymn the author of which is in active opposition to the truth and seeking to divert the saints from the truth by distributing tracts and the like. But I would like perhaps to be put right about that.
J.S.E. If it was given out you would be bound to sing it.
A.W.G.T. Oh, surely. I would not like to be lawless!
J.S.E. Then, of course, you are with the person who gave it out. I think that was perhaps what was in Mr. ——'s mind in the observation in the reading.
—— I feel like that, and what you feel is what I do. If I know the hymn and the writer, and he is under discipline, I wonder why the poor brother is not in the good of what he wrote.
A.McG. Do you think that the dedicated things are under the hand of the King and He would direct whether they should be in the book or not?
—— The direction is from the Lord. You have got a kind of change from David to Solomon, you see. Solomon leaves them out. If we get hold of it that the Lord is directing as He would as we are together, that would be something. He is directing about the song, the service of song which is so great in heaven.
A.W.G.T. Are we to gather from what is being said that it is felt generally that a revision is necessary?
—— Can you answer that, Mr. Lyon? What do you think?
P.L. Yes. There has been a growing feeling in that direction universally.
A.J.G. The position at present in regard of hymns composed by living authors who are no longer with us, as far as I know, is that there are fifteen authors involved, and twenty-four hymns.
E.C. Mr. ——, would you kindly tell us how it is if we could think of restoration in connection with these persons?
—— We should think of it. What have you in mind?
E.C. If they are restored, would not the hymn be suitable?
—— Oh, I think so.
L.G.B. You would not carry these hymns forward to a new book in hope of restoration, would you? I take it that the twenty-four hymns would be missed out of the new book.
—— I think that is the principle that should govern us.
E.C.M. Is that what you had in mind in referring to righteousness earlier?
—— Yes, quite so, righteousness.
E.C.M. Is that not the principle that would govern us in it?
—— Well, I think so. That is our leader righteousness.
J.M. Would Malachi help there, in regard to the judicial movements of Christ, sitting as a refiner and purifier of silver: "he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; and he will purify the children of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver; and they shall offer unto Jehovah an oblation in righteousness"? That would govern us at the time of a revision, do you think?
—— Quite so.
C.H. Presumably the answer is Yes to the question about a revision being necessary.
J.T.S. Could we substitute the word 'desirable'? I believe we would generally be in that.
A.L. Could one ask in regard to the matter of timing whether it would not be advisable, while accepting what has been said in principle, just to hold the matter pending, in view of what is now current amongst the brethren?
C.H. The preliminary work would take some months anyway, would it not?
—— The matter of righteousness, I think, ought to answers the questions here, that a new hymn book is desirable.
S.H. Did you refer to the side of government in this matter?
—— Well, it would be as under the King's directions. It is a question of what the Lord is doing. He is directing us to act in righteousness, which is essential in regard to the hymn book.
A.McG. Does not the scripture used at the last revision, that the King's business requireth haste, enter into it? I feel for one, that the revision is desirable and we ought to go on with it.
—— Would the trustees take on this work, at the Depot?
A.J.G. It is hardly within the ambit of what we are committed to undertaking, I think.
—— Well then shall we say each of the brothers, Mr. Gardiner, Mr. Henderson, Mr. Price, Mr. Stott, take on this service?
R.G.B. They are brothers well qualified for it.
H.N.V.H. I would like to enquire as to whether it is thought best for one person to undertake the work, or more. I notice in Proverbs 25, verse 1, it speaks about "the men of Hezekiah" doing the work.
A.J.G. It needs certain spiritual qualifications, that is all that I feel, and I think the other trustees would feel the same. So that if there is anyone else in the mind of the brethren who would serve equally well or better, we should be very glad for such an one to be brought forward by the brethren.
—— I think the feeling would be, if I can express myself, of confidence in these four brothers.
A.H. I think that would be felt by brethren universally.
A.J.G. I am speaking now, of course, without consulting the other trustees who are present here, they can say what they feel, but if that is the desire, I think we would be prepared to make a start on it, doing our best and counting on the prayers of the brethren, and perhaps later on in the year other brethren from abroad may be in the country, and we might be able to get the advantage of some counsel and help from them, from other parts of the world. You hope to be over again, Mr. Taylor, and I believe Mr. McCallum may come. Mr. Deck of Wellington hopes to come, and there are others that could be mentioned.
—— Yes, I am sure that is right.
J.S.E. It prevents it being a national effort, does it not, in anybody's mind?
A.J.G. I think that is important, that the saints should all be in it.
W.M.B. How does the matter bear on the brethren in other countries with other languages? I mean the responsibility. Would the initiative come from here, but other countries would need to be brought into the matter, would they?
A.J.G. It is for that purpose that we have managed to arrange for four brothers to be present here Mr. Wellershaus from Germany, Mr. Carren from Sweden, Mr. van den Berg from Holland, and Mr. Malecot from France so that in the short time that has been available we have endeavoured to bring our Continental brethren into the matter as much as possible.
A.W. We at least must translate and correct the new hymn book.
A.J.G. Yes, Well, there would be that, of course, and therefore we would trust that it would not be necessary to bring in a lot of new hymns, involving a lot of translation work.
G.W.B. What about the suggestion that the number be reduced?
A.J.G. That can all come under consideration when the present hymns themselves are being considered. There may be some that it is felt are a little unnecessary. I think we should bear that in mind, that the opinion has been expressed, and I think probably most would go with it, that we certainly do not need more than the present number and could well do with a few less.
Ques. I should like to ask if Mr. —— had in his mind that some of the hymns should be shorter, in view of brevity.
—— I would think that is right.
Ques. In that connection, many hymns could be improved could they not, by being divided up, as some of Mr. Darby's have been, for instance, with very helpful results?
A.J.G. Perhaps that matter may be left now, unless any other brothers had any further point to raise.
We wanted then to make mention of one or two other matters. One is that the brethren in America have taken the initiative in contributing a considerable sum of money, partly furnished already and the rest under promise, something like $6,000 or say £2,000 roughly, having in mind that certain ministry of J.T.'s should be reduced in price substantially, so as to make it easier for our younger brethren especially to build up their libraries and to follow up the past ministry of the late Mr. Taylor, which they may not have at the present time. It is proposed, therefore, to send out a letter very shortly intimating that seven volumes of his ministry and the two volumes of his letters, and also for convenience the index, will be available at half the catalogue price. That, of course, will hold good in regard of the whole world. I might say that we have received through Mr. ——, a gift, only within the last few days, of £186 toward that. We had already received further amounts previously. And the brethren at Auckland have sent us a gift of £250, out of the surplus of what was contributed to their three-day meetings at the beginning of the year, with the special desire that that should be applied in the same way.
There is quite an increase of interest in the ministry generally. The last few months have seen a great increase in orders at the Depot for ministry of all kinds, and it is felt that to encourage brethren to take up what is available, will certainly work out in help among the brethren generally. What has just been said has reference especially to J.T.'s ministry, and in addition to that, with a view to helping younger ones and those ill-established in the faith, it is proposed also to make a reduction in price of six books of fundamental importance, viz:
It is thought that these are books which would be of great value in establishing the young in the position in which they are found, and whereas the catalogue price of those six books is 9s. 6d., we are proposing to sell them as a set at 5s.
As regards the new edition of J.N.D.'s Bible, it is hoped and expected that the first Bibles will be available round about June of this year. We are sorry that there has been some delay, but it has been a good deal with the printers, and of course the amount of labour involved in printing a new edition of the Bible and then the necessity for meticulous care in proof reading, has involved that it has been a very big job. But is hoped, as I say, that the new edition, the Minion edition – that is, the larger Bible – will be available, or at any rate in sight, within the next four months. The smaller edition, that is, the Ruby, will be printed from the larger by a photographic process.
I might say that we are indebted particularly to our brethren Mr. Calvey and Mr. Howarth, both of Southport, and our brother Mr. Alan Reeson of Horsham, and his wife, who have done the whole labour of proof reading of the whole Bible. The printers themselves take responsibility for it I believe they themselves give it four proof readings, to endeavour to ensure accuracy but for our own satisfaction we got these brethren to do the proof reading throughout.
As regards further printed ministry which is in view, Volume 209 of the existing current series of J.T.'s ministry is almost ready to be issued. It is entitled, Households in Relation to the Ark.
As regards the new series of reprints of J.T.'s ministry, Volume 24 has already been issued, and we are proceeding, without delay, with the remainder.
As regards the desire for reprints of Mr. Raven's ministry, Volume 4 of the reprints has already been issued. Volume 5 is in hand, which will comprise two volumes of readings on John's gospel. When that is out we propose to continue steadily, as there is opportunity, with the rest of Mr. Raven's ministry that has not as yet been reprinted.
As regards Mr. Darby's Notes and Comments, Volumes 1 to 5 of the reprints have already been issued, and 1 to 3 are already sold out. Volumes 6 and 7 will be out fairly shortly, to be followed by two volumes of Notes and Jottings.
Ques. May I enquire as to the possibility of an index of J.T.'s ministry in relation to the subjects.
R.S. I think I can answer that. It came up at our last meeting here, when it was stated that a brother in South Africa had composed a very full subject index to J.T.'s ministry and that that would be made available to us. We have asked for a copy to be sent. This has been promised. We have written two or three times to ask them to send it over, but so far it has not arrived. But I believe now it is on the way, and until we look into that we can hardly say anything further on this subject.
A.J.G. I do not think that there is anything else that the trustees themselves wish to say, but if there are any remarks that brethren wish to offer we shall be glad to hear them.
W.J.D. I should like to ask whether an index of Mr. Raven's ministry could be made available.
R.S. There is one already in print, but it refers to the twenty-six volumes. It would require a little rearrangement, but I should think it could be done.
A.J.G. Yes.
R.G.B. It is not a very good index, in fact, but it could well form the basis for doing something fresh.
R.S. That is what I thought.
A.J.G. Well, if I might say so, it really wants someone who is competent in the matter, and has time, to offer to take it on, because I think the trustees find that their hands are already fairly full, so that I do not think the brethren must look to us exactly to provide these indexes, but we will gladly receive any help from anyone who is competent and in a position to compile them, either working from an existing index, as has been suggested, as a basis, or compiling it independently.
R.S. As you have referred to it, Mr. Ball, would you have the time and would you be prepared, if so, to take it on?
R.G.B. Well, I would be prepared to do it.
R.S. I am sure we should be glad to accept that, should we not?
A.J.G. Yes, I am sure we should. Is there anything further to say, Mr. Henderson?
Wm.H. No, except that we shall find our hands very full in taking up the service of the hymn book.
A.J.G. Yes.
Wm.H. We count on the Lord's support and the sympathy of the brethren, and their practical support, too, with anything they may have to contribute in the way of hymns.
A.J.G. Is there anything further that occurs to you, Mr. —–?
—— No, nothing, Mr. Gardiner.
C. I should just like to be allowed to give an expression, which I believe to be felt by the saints in general, of appreciation to the trustees of all the time and labour that they expend in all the work they do for us, and all the sacrifice involved. I would just endeavour to give a little expression of how much we feel we owe to them. One feels how little we realise the amount of work which is entailed in the preparation of the ministry.
A.J.G. I can say we are glad to do it, while we have the strength, and we are very greatly stimulated by the expressions of fellowship of the brethren, and their prayers, that we are receiving constantly.
G.H.S.P. And we esteem it as nothing but a very great privilege.
J.P.H. Might we just enquire about the finances, if something could be said about that, as to how the Depot is placed?
A.J.G. Well, the general position is quite satisfactory, but within the next four or six months we shall have to find quite a large amount, possibly £30,000 or more, to pay to the printers and binders of the new Bible edition. We already have quite a large amount in hand towards that, something approaching at any rate £18,000, and we have promises from three or four brothers who are willing to lend us money temporarily, because, of course, once the Bibles are out and sold, the money will come back to us, save that a certain amount of that will necessarily be locked up in stocks of Bibles at the Depot for a time. I think the position is, if I may say so simply, that the trustees can make good use still of anything the brethren might send, and in the final result, if we have more than is needed, it will be applied to reducing the price of the ministry.
R.A.C.K. Might I enquire if there is any exercise to have a change in any of the trustees.
A.J.G. I am not aware of any desire, but if the brethren have any such desire we shall certainly have great respect for anything they may say.
P.L. The tribute to their service, which we all support, that has just been rendered, is evidence enough, is it not, of our confidence in them and thankfulness to God for them?
A.J.G. The matter is not absent from our minds, I might say, from one point of view, that is, Mr. Henderson and myself are not as young as we were once, so that we shall not be able to go on indefinitely in the position of labour and responsibility. So that, from that point of view, any younger men who would have the general support and approval of the brethren, might well have it in their minds as something that the Lord might have them take up in time.